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Should the Ukraine join NATO?
gomboreli Wrote:The title of this topic is 'Should the Ukraine join NATO?' My answer is yes if these two sides want so. Except for these parties it's not anyone's business at all. And if the alliance refuses, it won't be the end of the world either.
Your recent history is full with all-out aggressions from Finland all the way to Eastern European countries, Afghanistan and now Georgia, and as far as I'm aware the Kremlin has never lacked excuses. You rather ponder WHY your fellow Slavs in Ukraine being historically and culturally much closer with Russians than with all NATO member nations combined are so keen to join NATO.
The same way it concerns Georgia.

You thought that what you do with S Osetia is your business only, were you right?

Every country that played any sagnifficant role in the world were have wars of aggression.

far not all Ukranians want to join NATO.
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Last years a lot of efforts were being made to internationalize the conflict, that is at least partially to replace the Russian troops with some genuinely unbiased countries. The negotiations were halted as three sides in the Joint Commission - Tskhinvali, Vladikavkaz and Moscow were always against 1. On the ground behind its forces Russia was building a quasi-state under a creeping annexation agenda. For a very long time many analysts here, even some leaders, were claiming that Moscow had set a trap to provoke a war but eventually they still fell into it. It had taken local Ossetians and Georgians only a few years to restore ordinary relations - economical, inter-marriages, free movement etc - and only a political status of the region was supposed to be determined. I still assume that if a really neutral peacekeeper, even Africans, had led the peace process, after a while this issue would have been solved.
The fact that not all citizens in the Ukraine want in NATO is an indication of democracy by the way - I wouldn't wish to see a North-Korean style 100% support for this idea. Whether or the NATO is better than Russia, I'd judge by actions of other countries: whiIe I don't seem to remember any NATO-member state which would wish to leave the alliance and pair with Russia, the opposite examples are more than enough. And your country's most recent actions in the Caucasus would hardly change this tendency.
The acknowledgement that your country has waged aggressive wars is a good sign indeed.
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gomboreli Wrote:Last years a lot of efforts were being made to internationalize the conflict, that is at least partially to replace the Russian troops with some genuinely unbiased countries. The negotiations were halted as three sides in the Joint Commission - Tskhinvali, Vladikavkaz and Moscow were always against 1. On the ground behind its forces Russia was building a quasi-state under a creeping annexation agenda. For a very long time many analysts here, even some leaders, were claiming that Moscow had set a trap to provoke a war but eventually they still fell into it. It had taken local Ossetians and Georgians only a few years to restore ordinary relations - economical, inter-marriages, free movement etc - and only a political status of the region was supposed to be determined. I still assume that if a really neutral peacekeeper, even Africans, had led the peace process, after a while this issue would have been solved.
The fact that not all citizens in the Ukraine want in NATO is an indication of democracy by the way - I wouldn't wish to see a North-Korean style 100% support for this idea. Whether or the NATO is better than Russia, I'd judge by actions of other countries: whiIe I don't seem to remember any NATO-member state which would wish to leave the alliance and pair with Russia, the opposite examples are more than enough. And your country's most recent actions in the Caucasus would hardly change this tendency.
The acknowledgement that your country has waged aggressive wars is a good sign indeed.

I am realy amused Smile. Of course Africans would be better for you, they wont stop georgians from destroing s osetian people, same for others. Issue realy could be solved quik. but it didnt worked.
Do Ukrain needs 100% disaproving not to join NATO? Country is splitted, so one must be carefull untill he wants something bad to happen.
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If you think that NATO is enternal than i am happy for you. So you better wait. I think if you asked USSR citizen 20 years ago if Russia can fight against georgia he would lough.
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No, neutral peacekeepers would most importantly be free from any political inclinations, which would benefit both sides, promote peace and ensure final reconciliation.
Russia was waging a war 15 years ago as well, but, since Yeltsin was wiser, indirectly: in 93 his Russia was sending thousands of mercenaries – Cossaks, Chechens led by Basayev, other North Caucasians, dropping 500 kg bombs on residential blocks in Sukhumi, using the Black See fleet for amphibious landings - and innocently saying 'it’s not us!' – etc. He succeeded and forced Tbilisi to enter ‘the Commonwealth’. Any idea of Georgian membership in NATO then sounded laughable. You can thank your politicians only if this has so drastically changed. With much more pragmatism and much less imperialistic ambitions on their side, especially after the leader change, this would have been hardly possible. The current Georgia incursion, which delivered a smashing blow to active supporters of the neutrality inside the country, may after a while turn out to be a Pyrrhic victory.
So what do you want us to wait for, until following Tskhinvali Putin hoists his tricolor Tsarist flag over Tbilisi?!
The Ukraine seems so far determined in its Atlantic aspirations and if this issue is put on referendum, 50% + 1 vote is enough. Security concerns is what all these countries seek the membership for. Your failure to recognize this reality resulted in almost doubling the member states within 1,5 decade and your hopes of the NATO's death anytime soon is to be dashed to pieces.
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Quote:Should the Ukraine join NATO?

YES! yesterday!

Because Russia is about to intervene this peaceful country.
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On the 63rd session, Yushchenko claimed: Joining NATO is the only way to maintain the Ukraine's independence.
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Faw_Peter Wrote:On the 63rd session, Yushchenko claimed: Joining NATO is the only way to maintain the Ukraine's independence.

And you belive his every word?
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Personally I don't agree with Yushenko. Ukraine is now a free country, but it will worsen this condition if it joins NATO.
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I guess the Ukrainians know their stuation better than we do, so they better consider all pros and cos and make the decision which would benefit this country. Since they're aspiring to NATO, they must have strong reasons for that.
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SiD Wrote:
Faw_Peter Wrote:On the 63rd session, Yushchenko claimed: Joining NATO is the only way to maintain the Ukraine's independence.

And you belive his every word?

why shouldn't we?
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Hakan G Wrote:why shouldn't we?

Becouse facts speaks otherwise. Unreasanable politics are thier only treat to indepandence.
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SiD Wrote:
Hakan G Wrote:why shouldn't we?

Becouse facts speaks otherwise. Unreasanable politics are thier only treat to indepandence.


Give us an example
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Hakan G Wrote:Give us an example

Example of what? Unreasanable politics?
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gomboreli Wrote:I guess the Ukrainians know their stuation better than we do, so they better consider all pros and cos and make the decision which would benefit this country. Since they're aspiring to NATO, they must have strong reasons for that.
when you say "Ukrainians" what exactly do you mean? You should know that the Ukrainian government (RADA) and Ukrainian people are different.
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Quote:when you say "Ukrainians" what exactly do you mean? You should know that the Ukrainian government (RADA) and Ukrainian people are different.

Wow, incredible. Rada is the name of their parliament elected by the voters and these voters are all Ukrainians regardless of their nationality. As far as there was no coup d'etat in the Ukraine, the authorities represent the people and it's fruitless to divide them.
Which Terry are you, the captain of Abramovich's Chelsea?!
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Why shouldn't Ukraine join NATO? It may not want to
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gomboreli Wrote:
Quote:when you say "Ukrainians" what exactly do you mean? You should know that the Ukrainian government (RADA) and Ukrainian people are different.

Wow, incredible. Rada is the name of their parliament elected by the voters and these voters are all Ukrainians regardless of their nationality. As far as there was no coup d'etat in the Ukraine, the authorities represent the people and it's fruitless to divide them.
Which Terry are you, the captain of Abramovich's Chelsea?!

Now gomboreli, I understand your position and attitude, but I was trying to explain that in a practical manner. Certainly any democratic country's government are elected by its citizens and it allegedly represents its nation interests. But, as the time goes by, people want changes if they see no good results from the government's part. Were there any good results in Ukraine over the last several years? I don't think so. Besides, let's not forget that this is the "Orange revolution" that helped the current Ukrainian government overtake the power.
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Ukraine is the only country among the ex-Soviet republics (excluding the three Baltic States) that has qualified in the Freedom House list as a free country.
One may question the fairness of different index lists made by various organizations, but perhaps fierce debates are not applicable in this case. Based partially on its historic past and ethnic composition, Ukraine enjoys the most pluralistic political environment indeed.
Let’s take a glance at what’s happening around:
- In one country all the power has been handed over from father to son. The rumours say that the latter will sooner or later follow suit and thus strengthen the foundation of the existing ‘republican monarchy’;
- In three countries the outgoing presidents have found a representative inside the ruling clique itself which in fact guarantees their immunity from possible prosecution;
- Most republics are still run by Communist-era leaders who will rather keep clinging to power until their deaths. No wonder that the Brezhnevs of the XXI century similarly crush individual freedoms and abuse human rights;
- The world has also witnessed bitter power-struggles among the government clans which resulted in foreign-sponsored violent coups painted as coloured revolutions.
Although Ukraine may only partially fall into the last category, it has in general survived the similar destiny. While the above-mentioned Sultan look-alikes have usurped the whole power, strangled the courts, arrested, exiled or killed political opponents and clamped down on free media, Ukraine has promoted different values. The Rada has nothing to do with rubber-stamp Parliaments where robots sitting there vote for anything they are ordered from upwards. Fully reflecting pluralistic opinions existing outside the building, Ukrainian MPs are a solid force to be reckoned with both by PM or President. The former passes laws and carries out a thorough control over their implementation. Therefore, the government being formed by the majority of deputies is accountable to the Rada. President, too, wishing to initiate any law, has to deal with largely opponent MPs. The classic triangle of power characterizing the democracies has been established. Courts, too, can hardly be accused of providing a lackey service to either of the state institutions.
The Orange Revolution has the least grotesque image among the other so-called coloured revolutions, as the country has not launched regressive policy through repressive means. The political struggle has been contained within constitutional-institutional frames where the nation solely is to prolong or terminate the governing terms to its officials through the election. Leaders must be trying hard to win over the support: 16 years ago the first president who had signed the Declaration of Independence was denied the second term and was kicked out of office. No similar case has happened in any post-Soviet country where the outcome of elections is always well-known long before the actual voting day.
Despite some acid reality - the corruption is still widespread, the living standards are low - overall Ukraine has to be commended for her peaceful progress towards the liberal society. Whoever is elected, President is going to have a tough job as they usually don’t flourish with privileges in this country.
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Quote:Ukraina do not play Games and not go in NATO.I am not Rus do not worry for that NATO IS nazi machine of Birderberg groups like EU for War between Islam and Christian World.This is NATO real,truth about War in Serbia and Afghanistan-Independent source.
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The infinite war-la guerra infinita Italian TV Program Kosovo
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Afghanistan
Code:
http://uploading.com/files/4mdcm6c2/Kosovo_TRUTH_Infinite_war-_Afganistan_1_8%255D.mkv/
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.All this with English Subtitle.
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