Ukranian and Russia: two nations tradegy

[RusNeko]

Ukraine now does everything that isnot good for Russia. Ukranian politics do everything to destroy everything Russian in their country. They even destroy russian channels there. They heroize Mazepa, who was against soviet army fighting Nazi invaders! They call Golodomor in the middle twentieth century as the ukranian genocide - no matter that belarus, baltic, russian people died too- and even more! Why the nation, that was ever united with us, russians, is now against us? Why we still love ukranian people, but they hate us?. Is it normal??

[Tamara_Georgia Girl]

That's a good question, see u asked it but don't try to answer... the response can be: becouse the problem is in Russian Nation... Ukranians, georgians, Chechnyans, INgushians anderstood that Russians don't want to change their empaeric philosophy and the post of World ruler, that's why they don't like u any more... this people have known what is free word and free action of a humanity, the DEMOCRACY where u can live without the fear of RED colour, only there are russians left who can't realize the cancer of soviet can be the thing which takes ur nation to an end!! that's why u have to try and change someting in urself, say NO to ur govt's brainwashing and then we still can be friends. how can a lamb love a wolf when she knows its going to eat any minute?!
' BETTER DEAD THEN RED'

[SiD]

First of all RusNeko far not all ukranians have something against russians. State policy is a bit other thing and i think we must aproach it without this brotherly people stuff, it is just elusion that we uphold for some reason.
Tamara you realy need help if you afreid of red colour. And as always this mythic democracy that you have in abundance somewere and we havent. It is even not funny anymore, really.

[independent]

Ukraine now does everything that isnot good for Russia. Ukranian politics do everything to destroy everything Russian in their country. They even destroy russian channels there. They heroize Mazepa, who was against soviet army fighting Nazi invaders! They call Golodomor in the middle twentieth century as the ukranian genocide - no matter that belarus, baltic, russian people died too- and even more! Why the nation, that was ever united with us, russians, is now against us? Why we still love ukranian people, but they hate us?. Is it normal??

Just remember that:
Viktor YUSHCHENKO != UKRAINE
And You can immediately see that this kind of situation will not last long ...

Yushchenko has already lost almost all of his support - and it shows that
commonly Ukrainian are not satisfied how relations between Russia and
Ukraine has developed during last years ...

[gomboreli]

While RusNeko sounds sincerely upset with current level of relations with the Ukraine calling it a tragedy, two other gentlemen are more than convinced that the problem lies with the leadership only and as soon as it leaves the scene in Kyiv, everything will go smoothly.
However, the stark distance from the RF and the aspirations towards the Euro-Atlantic Alliance in both the Ukraine and Georgia became obvious in 2004-05 when the neo-imperialism started vividly smelling from the Kremlin. With ailing Yeltsin in power these countries hardly felt direct threat but with aggressive KGB-style leaders in Moscow they naturally began to seek more security.
I spent a long time in Afghanistan where 'Shourawi' - means 'Russian' - remains the most terrifying word. Despite almost two decades after the Russian retreat from there and subsequent brutalities from Islamist and Western forces, parents scare their babies with this word which has become an equivalent of 'Nazi' in Europe. That's because crimes committed during the nine-year occupation can't be forgotten by ordinary people.
Similarly, the recent Russian invasion of Georgia was described by local population as an assault of XXI-century Mongolians implying actions of bloodthirsty gangs of Cossacks or Ossetians - massacring, pillaging, setting houses or orchards on fire, razing everything to the ground - rather than those of regular servicemen. Now a special museum is being set up to tell next generations of these crimes so no wonder if 'Rusi' follows suit of 'Shourawi' in people's mind.
20% of Chechen population was slaughtered in last 14 years, including about 58 000 children, in the most appalling way which has become a repetition of Czarist and Soviet extermination of this freedom-loving nation. Even crocodile tears are not shed. Poles, Finns, Lithuanians, Hungarians, Estonians, Czechs or Latvians all have some similar stories to tell and hopes that Moscow has changed since the end of the Cold war unfortunately prove to be illusions.
So the Ukraine watches around, feels danger, tries to avoid it and takes precautionary actions.
Overall love or hatred don't come overnight. It takes time before certain attitude takes such a shape. Naked military aggressions or gas blackmailing can't result in any respect towards anyone. It only makes nations alien from each other.
I doubt that people in the Kremlin seriously ponder at what in a long run their narrow-minded policy may bring first of all to the nation they govern. And some voters in Russia better think of replacement of their own government than that of the Ukraine which by the way doesn't represent any threat to its neighbouring countries.

[SiD]

And one genlemen is trying to continue old song about horrible rrussian imperealism.
You disturb soviet times but must i remind you that georgia was part of soviet union? Stalin was georgian or i need to remind you? So quit it becouse if you dont like something remember that georgia was part of it.
If chechen people is so freedom loving than why freedom wasnt granted to S Osetians? Huh?
And if you touched so called gas blackmailing you better see what price was set for Ucraine. They want to be prt of europe? fine than pay like europeans! It is fair enough.
And before mention something about our government better remember that it is LEGITIMATE power that was ELECTED by Russian people not appeared during some rose, orange or blue revolution with following power struggle.

[gomboreli]

Stalin indeed was Georgian but ruled the Russian Empire which was shamelessly called the Soviet Union. I know some unions, such as EU where countries enter not after military invasions and occupations but on their own will. Stalin finished off with independence of his own homeland by dispatching Red Armies and created so-called South Ossetia (thanks God, he didn't establish South-Eastern Ossetia or South-Western Ossetia respectively in the Pankisi Gorge and in Borjomi area) in the heart of Georgia, actions that apparently make him the most notorious Georgian in its long history. That butcher served the interests of Russia and expansion of its Empire and I doubt that shame should burn me out for his deeds.
Senseless to argue about freedom of Ossetians living in Tskhinvali - in a relevant topic I wrote quite enough - but overall it's a waste of time to start another circle of discussions, because hearing the Putin's ideas hardly interest me. But since the topic concerns Ukrainians, I'll highlight that it's has become the only country among all 11 CIS members where the president is not an authoritarian ruler governing for unlimited time or appointing his political successors, but where leaders are replaced in a peaceful way, where elections are held and ballots are counted honestly, where the executive branch of the government is well controlled by the legislative branch and courts and where a coalition government and strong opposition groups exist. All these indicate that the Ukraine has most significantly progressed towards the liberal democracy which no wonder causes such a nervous tantrum in Moscow. The Orange Revolution can be considered a positive event as Ukrainians have proved that they are not a herd of sheep, but people who feel responsible for their own future and are ready to protect their interests through time-consuming street protests against election-riggers.
Ok, keep your legitimate government close to your heart - no one is going to steal away your leader from you anyway - but don't be very surprised when, as a legitimate reaction, the Ukraine similarly legitimately one day joins international organizations it deems expedient.

[SiD]

You know how many russians suffered during soviet times? No one was in previleged state all have faced repressions no matter what nationality but interesting that some unconscius people in former SU are feel free to call it russian empire. Patetic attempt to blacken former friends to look better for new masters.
If to stop genocide, to save our people from death is Putin ideas than i am two hans for him and his ideas.
Wow democracy in Ukraine is realy something. Now prime minister is almost called traitor by president and parlament is investigating Ushenkos involvement in supporting georgians doomed war efforts. New elections are almost in order. Realy fast those "responsible" people turned on each other. Interesting that they together "struggled for democracy" on thier "maidan". They are realy willing to defend THIER intersts not interests of Ukranians.
And you should better look are Ukraine and Georgia closer to thier goal to enter "international organization" ?

[gomboreli]

Well for some unconscious people the Chechen tragedy where 250 000 people have been killed is a struggle against terrorism, the recent Tskhinvali events are genocide - I thought this term and fables about two thousand casualties were acknowledged by its inventors as a propaganda failure - the military invasion is liberation and the forcible incorporation of an occupied country into an occupying one is a union.
I also reckoned that some Russian leaders stood together on battle tanks at the 'maidan' in downtown Moscow against coup d'etat but two years later not only 'turned on each other' but also launched tank battles right there. Tbilisi, too, has witnessed the scenes of disgraceful fratricide, so in this view an Ukrainian power struggle goes on in a quite civilized way despite the accusations of treason. While the Blair's Iraqi policy was described by his own Environmental Minister as reckless and the Polish Premier and President bitterly bite each other, the Ukrainian events should cause no consternation.. The Parliament is investigating, great, that's the whole point why this entity exists - to pass laws and exercise control over their implementation. The Russian parliament with its pseudo-opposition deputies would scarcely set up a commission to investigate any wrongdoing of the government and that's why it looks like the Soviet Supreme Council so much.
This is not only different interpretation of events but rather different matter of principles. In general, politicians, the majority of whom are typical charlatans, need to control each other and they all have to be closely monitored by the civil society through media, non-governmental organizations and other means. The more efficiently the society accomplishes this goal, the faster the country progresses. In Putin's Russia due to historic reasons progress is apparently viewed as one man monopolizing the whole authority and ruling under different names of president, premier or czar as long as he wants. Although, no objections if its citizens agree and plus neighbouring countries are not bullied constantly.
So the current government defends only its own cartel interests and Yanukowich would care of the state?! No doubt he would, but of Russia. The reasons of why these two such close countries get distanced from each other, have largely to be found in Moscow.

[SiD]

Bla bla bla about chechen wars is realy funny to hear from you. Chechen wars lasted for years, while georgian attempt only for days that is why numbers of dead are not impresive, but that speaks only that actions of russian army were timely and effective. Anyway it is for another topic.
You have described power struggle in Russia of 90s. Dont you remember how democratic our government was called that time? Far more democratic than now . And if you do not know that times are called now wild 90s in Russia and remembered as black times. In Ukraine power struggle goes in specific way but it isnt better for country. Thier government is reelected so friquently that they do not work they just reelect themselves. They re in something like constant political crisis. And if you touched society, how do you think would be Ushenko reelected in next elections? How popular is he now?
You have interesting view on our history and way of progress. In some way it is true but Putin isnt any tzar, emperor or something he just offers his way for Russia and most people prefer his way for now at least and untill they like it he and his party will have power. And about bullying it is not our interest to bully someone so you should adress it to irrensponsible governments who prefer to provoke Russia by thier actions and making surprised face wenn they face consicuenses.
But no matter how politics spoils our reletionship with Ukrain as a whole we have warm reletions with its part(quite large by the way) and that is what is most important.