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Turks lose trust in EU
#26
Since the Iraq qar and the credit crisis, I don't like USA as I did in the past.
It is losing the democtratic spirit
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#27
Probably another reason of why Turks lose trust in EU, is that there is no middle class in Turkey, everybody is either too rich (millionaires) or poor.
If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is "God is crying." And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell him is "Probably because of something you did."

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#28
Turkey ,should never ,ever join the EU.
If we are talking about an EU, the proper thing to do would be to accept only countries within the continent.Otherwise it shouldn't be called a European Union.
For a brief moment it seemed like Rock n' Roll would inherit the Earth..
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#29
If geography is the deciding criterion, then enough of Turkey is in Europe in order to qualify for entry.
There must be some other reason for such adamant opposition.
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#30
If we take a look at the Map of Europe, we'll notice that Turkey indeed is a part of it, but only geographically. Besides, Georgia and Armenia makes part of the Europe map as well. Aphrpodite, you probably are unsatisfied with Turks themselves, which I find normal, because I share your opinion.
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#31
Faw_Peter Wrote:If we take a look at the Map of Europe, we'll notice that Turkey indeed is a part of it, but only geographically. Besides, Georgia and Armenia makes part of the Europe map as well. Aphrpodite, you probably are unsatisfied with Turks themselves, which I find normal, because I share your opinion.
Just curious, what would it take to be "satisfied" with the Turks themselves?
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#32
Aeneas Wrote:If geography is the deciding criterion, then enough of Turkey is in Europe in order to qualify for entry.
There must be some other reason for such adamant opposition.
Not enough of Turkey ..besides that part which is now geographically called European Turkey used to be Greek territory until fairly recently.

But since you are looking for some hidden reason behind my adamant oposition as you call it, (or could it be that you expect me not to want Turkey in simply because I'm Greek? :lol: ) , I will simply tell you that I wouldn't want a country that (a)denies the basic human rights to its people, (b) regards women as lesser beings, © refuses to integrate ,(d) still denies both the Armenian and Pontic Greek genocides,although even their closest buddies ,the Americans,have recognised them.. (e) the Cyprus issue.

I could go on..But let me ask you something;
Do you think Turkey will fulfill the criteria required for joining the EU? Will they accept to play by the rules of the European club they seem so desperate to join?
And if so, by when?
For a brief moment it seemed like Rock n' Roll would inherit the Earth..
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#33
The Armenian genocide is a very complicated affair. Most of the folks who're pushing the issue are Armenians from diaspora. A lot of Armenians who actually LIVE in Armenia would like to normalize relations with the Turks. They've already started a reprochment drive via soccer matches - Erdogan was in Yerevan for a game. The Turks are also brokering a deal between the Azeris and the Armenians.
So ... yeah, something could be worked out for the mutual benefit of all parties. Where there is a will there's a way. Bottom line - I don't think that isolating and/or marginalizing Turkey would benefit the EU.
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#34
The EU will never allow Turkey to join it unless it solves the problem with Cyprus. I don't know which part is right here - Turkey or Greece, but, I will not be surprised to hear one day that Cyprus will declare independence from both states
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#35
Turkey needs to be included somehow. It will not benefit the EU to push them away. They have a very strong and well tested alliance with Israel (therefore indirect access to nukes), an enviable military force and despite centuries old spats with the Russians, they can work together amazingly well. Right now Russians are absolutely adored in Turkey and there was even a best seller - Metal Storm http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0215/p01s04-woeu.htm - novel about Russia rescuing Turkey from a US attack. So things are complicated.
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#36
Turkey is known to produce quite unqualitative things, especially clothes. Should this spoil the EU's reputation in the matter of quality? Maybe this is one of the reasons Europeans are afraid to have Turkey in its family
If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is "God is crying." And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell him is "Probably because of something you did."

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#37
personally i do not like the idea for the following reason.....turkey/EU borders with iraq,iran,and syria...and the volatile region of caucasus.....can this be good...? bringing iran right next to our doorstep...and iraq,since our "friends" the americans made such a mess of it....?and syria..??hhhhmmm... don't know....i am not very crazy on it......
we fear what we do not understand,we fear the uknown,we fear what is different from us....but our greatest fear is yet unavoidable...so why do we need all others....??
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#38
Aeneas Wrote:The Armenian genocide is a very complicated affair. Most of the folks who're pushing the issue are Armenians from diaspora. A lot of Armenians who actually LIVE in Armenia would like to normalize relations with the Turks. They've already started a reprochment drive via soccer matches - Erdogan was in Yerevan for a game. The Turks are also brokering a deal between the Azeris and the Armenians.
So ... yeah, something could be worked out for the mutual benefit of all parties. Where there is a will there's a way. Bottom line - I don't think that isolating and/or marginalizing Turkey would benefit the EU.
I must say I am surprised to see you mention the Armenian genocide while you completely disregard the Greek one at the same time.The reason I am surprised is because you state Pontus Euxinus as your place of origin (I assume). Surely you must be aware of the fact that our ancestors shared the shores of that sea until not so long ago and that Euxinus means "welcoming to strangers" in Greek?

It's always those from the diaspora pushing the issues.Those living in the actual land are too busy dealing with other issues,like making a living ..

I asked you if you think Turkey will fulfill the criteria required for joining the EU and if they will accept to play by the rules of the European club they seem so desperate to join,and if so by when.
Alhtough I will agree that marginalising or isolating Turkey would not benefit the EU,your reply has not provided me with any answers whatsoever.

So let me rephrase..Do you think Turkey will do as the Romans do once it gets in Rome? (Rome being the EU)

Simple question.
For a brief moment it seemed like Rock n' Roll would inherit the Earth..
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#39
Aeneas Wrote:Turkey needs to be included somehow. It will not benefit the EU to push them away. They have a very strong and well tested alliance with Israel (therefore indirect access to nukes), an enviable military force and despite centuries old spats with the Russians, they can work together amazingly well. Right now Russians are absolutely adored in Turkey and there was even a best seller - Metal Storm http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0215/p01s04-woeu.htm - novel about Russia rescuing Turkey from a US attack. So things are complicated.
Ok,let's suppose the EU includes Turkey in.Do you think the EU should keep its present name (European Union) or it would be better if it acquired a more suitable name,say like Eurasian Union.
For a brief moment it seemed like Rock n' Roll would inherit the Earth..
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#40
Why do I feel like I'm on the witness stand? I am not a big fan of yes/no questions - e.g. "have you stopped robbing old ladies? answer yes or no!"
I'd like to think of our glorious union as a living organism that evolves through contact and incorporation of other entities. Was the EU the same after it brought in Greece? Or Romania and Bulgaria?
Was Rome the same after defeating Carthage? Or the Gaul? or the Germanic people? So you could ask the question thusly:"Will the Turks do as the Romans when in Rome" or you could ask it this way: "Will the Romans do as the Huns [tell them] when Attila arrives at the gates?"
As for the genocides - yes indeed; they were horrific chapters in the history of the Balkans. The Greeks were victims as were the Armenians and the Romanians and the Aromanians and the Bulgarians and the Serbs and you name it. But so were the Tutsi and Hutu of Rwanda. And what do we tell the people of Rwanda .. "can you people just drop the ancient hatreds and just get along?!" Are we really that different just because we're from Europe/Balkans?
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#41
Aphrodite Wrote:Surely you must be aware of the fact that our ancestors shared the shores of that sea until not so long ago and that Euxinus means "welcoming to strangers" in Greek?
Wink The ancient Greeks actually called it Pontus Axenos. And we all know what that means Smile It took a while before it became Euxinus. I'm all about making it Euxinus and not Axenos!
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#42
A glimpse at Turkish attitudes regarding "the exchange" of populations in 1923 can be found in today's Hurriyet article "Gonul blunders in remark on history" - http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/domes...sp?gid=244
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#43
I don't know how I wound up being backed into the corner of being an apologist for Turkey ... but I guess somebody's got to do it. Here's an article about the increase in commerce between Turkey and Armenia (this comes after the big moves in soccer diplomacy):
http://en.apa.az/news.php?id=91809
Commerce with the Turks has a huge priority for the Russians:
http://www.sptimes.ru/index.php?action_i...y_id=27189
And of course Romania - so important to us that we have a portal:
http://www.romturkonline.com/
========================================
It's all about Euxinus and not Axenos
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#44
Just wanted to ask as always was interested in this:
do you happen to know why Germany is on the first place in Europe after the number of Muslims (and certainly Turks)?
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#45
Aeneas Wrote:Why do I feel like I'm on the witness stand? I am not a big fan of yes/no questions - e.g. "have you stopped robbing old ladies? answer yes or no!"
I'd like to think of our glorious union as a living organism that evolves through contact and incorporation of other entities. Was the EU the same after it brought in Greece? Or Romania and Bulgaria?
Was Rome the same after defeating Carthage? Or the Gaul? or the Germanic people? So you could ask the question thusly:"Will the Turks do as the Romans when in Rome" or you could ask it this way: "Will the Romans do as the Huns [tell them] when Attila arrives at the gates?"
As for the genocides - yes indeed; they were horrific chapters in the history of the Balkans. The Greeks were victims as were the Armenians and the Romanians and the Aromanians and the Bulgarians and the Serbs and you name it. But so were the Tutsi and Hutu of Rwanda. And what do we tell the people of Rwanda .. "can you people just drop the ancient hatreds and just get along?!" Are we really that different just because we're from Europe/Balkans?
I'm sorry if I made you feel this way as I had no such intention.I stated my view on an issue,then you implied I had a hidden agenda so I gave you yet another reason (well five of them actually). :haha

I have to say though I find it interesting you never came with a direct reply to what I have asked you.

I don't know what the Romans should do if the Huns arrived at the gates..Should they arrive at the gates in the first place?
The countries you mention are parts of the European continent.Turkey is not.
And just for the sake of arguement,let's say Turkey becomes a member of the EU in due time.Should we still call it a European Union? What's wrong with Eurasian Union? Ours is an evolving organism after all!
Or do my questions stll make you feel you're on the witness stand?
For a brief moment it seemed like Rock n' Roll would inherit the Earth..
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#46
Aeneas Wrote:
Aphrodite Wrote:Surely you must be aware of the fact that our ancestors shared the shores of that sea until not so long ago and that Euxinus means "welcoming to strangers" in Greek?
Wink The ancient Greeks actually called it Pontus Axenos. And we all know what that means Smile It took a while before it became Euxinus. I'm all about making it Euxinus and not Axenos!
Well Aeneas,it was the Greeks who turned the sea into a welcoming one - or maybe it was a euphemism?

I'm all for making it Euxinus too , but it takes two to tango as you very well know.
For a brief moment it seemed like Rock n' Roll would inherit the Earth..
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#47
Aeneas Wrote:I don't know how I wound up being backed into the corner of being an apologist for Turkey ... but I guess somebody's got to do it.
I suppose so..especially when one is not a Greek enthusiast :lol:
For a brief moment it seemed like Rock n' Roll would inherit the Earth..
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#48
Aeneas Wrote:A glimpse at Turkish attitudes regarding "the exchange" of populations in 1923 can be found in today's Hurriyet article "Gonul blunders in remark on history" -
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/domes...sp?gid=244

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For a brief moment it seemed like Rock n' Roll would inherit the Earth..
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#49
Aphrodite Wrote:
Aeneas Wrote:I don't know how I wound up being backed into the corner of being an apologist for Turkey ... but I guess somebody's got to do it.
I suppose so..especially when one is not a Greek enthusiast :lol:
But I am! I love all things Greek... but after all things Roman - cannot help it, it's my heritage:
[Image: romans5.gif]
As for the Turks, while we don't have to love them, we cannot ignore them. Huge and ever growing population and a disciplined and lethal military (just ask the Brits and Aussies how they fared in Galipoli). My personal experience with them has been largely positive. They have been at LEAST as honorable in their dealing with me as "Westerners" (e.g. Brits).
Sometimes you have to watch your back even more carefully when dealing with the supposedly more civilized Europeans:
[Image: romans.gif]
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#50
Aeneas Wrote:
Aphrodite Wrote:
Aeneas Wrote:I don't know how I wound up being backed into the corner of being an apologist for Turkey ... but I guess somebody's got to do it.
I suppose so..especially when one is not a Greek enthusiast :lol:
But I am! I love all things Greek... but after all things Roman - cannot help it, it's my heritage:
[Image: romans5.gif]
I see..And who have the Romans taken their civilization from may I ask? :lol:
Quote:As for the Turks, while we don't have to love them, we cannot ignore them. Huge and ever growing population and a disciplined and lethal military (just ask the Brits and Aussies how they fared in Galipoli). My personal experience with them has been largely positive. They have been at LEAST as honorable in their dealing with me as "Westerners" (e.g. Brits).
Sometimes you have to watch your back even more carefully when dealing with the supposedly more civilized Europeans:
[Image: romans.gif]
Ah..you're talking people,not politics..
I will agree with you regarding the supposedly more civilized Europeans though :deg
For a brief moment it seemed like Rock n' Roll would inherit the Earth..
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