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ser_toma you are right, but don't be brutal. I think you are taken by flames of dispute. Nobody wants more victims of
this terible misunderstanding between Albanians and Serbs. The criminals are guilty, and every crime has its first and
second name. Don't be hasty friend. I will never support hate and agression whoever does it.

Show your culture standing up inspite of insults and lies from other side, like it was done in past.
sasha, you are right! 8-)
mea culpa! I provoked fim, a brave internet warior, making jokes with him. :oops:
My friends, nobody proked nobody here, there are things more deeper than you can imqagine or understund. When schiptars in first place got thair autonomy by the TITO, than the Serbian pragnancy must went to Skoplje in FNRJ Macedonia, or the Nis to deliver child. Now you must ask why?! Because that Schiptar nurses killed the Serbian chilld's on thair birth. And whay we let them to do that, because we belived in Yugoslavia, not Serbia, and thay have had all the rights and law in thair hands 'till 89. There was one man in Serbia that know the truth, but TITO killed him. It Was Aleksandar Rankovic. This man didn't alloved to Serbs from Kosovo to be Scattered to all Serbia, and to Schiptars to colonize Kosovo by protection of TITO. There was soo many things, or stories, or you could call it what ever you vant. Thare is much anger in Serbian people, we give to most of tham homes, and thay killed us. Sorry for my rage, but it isn't made yesterday. I havet trust in law, and the law will come one day. That day none of the Schiptar people that irritate this would sufer the consequcene. The innosent people that belive in thair lies would sufer, i know that. Serbian army is preparing, no mather which party have the power, Serbian people have much anger, and recruitmant in the army is almost 100%. Do the math, see the history, we are warrior and honorable people
You are right, but no hate and evil never brought peace and prosperity. Those nurses had their names, they are guilty of their crimes, others of other crime, but poor pesent from Shara mountin isn't guilty for that, and he was hunted down like wild animal from both sides, he want peace and liberty. Serbs must live with Albanians and honor them, but they must give up from crime and must be frendly too. Everybody sane will support this, but some time must past for that. Albanians must realize that Serbs are their friends, not enemies. USA had its policy divide&conquer, thats why they support lies and crime. All people of Kosovo and Metochia are victims of that policy.
sasha Wrote:I support for Serbia to have right to recognize every onesided proclaimed independance of eny part of countries that recognized Kosovo as independant.
So, in all countries which have recognized Kosovo all parts that want to be independant can ask Serbia for recognition first, because Serbia will probably
acknowledge their independance as reciprocity for Kosovo recognition.
Woow sasha, don't you see your self that serbia ended like "dad fish in the batlle" Confusedhock: ... and then still playng a gud with a large tail, seeking ewery question you shall answer first! :? :evil:
Does Slovenia, Croatia, Montenegro are makedonia have ask your permition from you, for independence... no way, why shall they, are why shall kosovars are other nations shall do so "dad fish on the butlle"...!
Confusedhock:

Actually Albanian-Kosovars was one of the first nation in ex-jugoslavia to establish independence meny times before the rest nations at a years 1948, 1968, 1981, 1989, 1998 and then sucesfully INDEPENDEN KOSOVA at 17.03.2008! :mrgreen: :lol: :mrgreen:
For all thos years serbia trye to grab more an more land and property from kosovars..., and actualy the new Belgrade was built from kosovar property(TREPCA)!
Serb state criminal-teror and humeliation against albanian kosovars with in decades, so meny maney laundring and international-bank credit's have ben taken from serbia in the name of Kosova..., and then they abused them self..., but now you are not gon to do anymore...! :? Cry
Yes, every crime have it's first and second name, no mather whose side made it. I cant shake the feeling that you Sasha and you Clearman, think that Serbs have the rightful goal, and that we use all posibal means (crimes, massacres...). I must admonish you on something, and that is the side of the perspective. The man that potect it's rigths, home or family, is that man doing a crime, massacre, or man that man who is attacking. Yuo see, this war against Serbia have no philosophy ore history covert, but it's well planed. 90% of the world population don't know anything about Yugoslavia, Serbia, or Kosmet, soo it is easy to create philosophy and history (by the media services. I can't remember their names now, some jewish firms, that worked on Croatia, Bosnia, and on the end for Schipatrs on Kosmet) that can put Schiptars to be victims, and the Serbs to be agressors. Below is the ethnic card of Kosmet
Nacionality---------1948-------1953--------1961-------1971-------1981---------1991
Schiptars---------498.242---524.559---646.805---916.168----1.226.736--1.607.690
Serbs-------------171.911---189.869--- 227.016---228.264-----209.498----195.301
Montenegrins-----28.050----31.343-----37.588-----31.555------27.028-----20.045
Muslims------------9.679------6.241------8.026-----26.357------58.562---- 57.48
Gipsy--------------11.230----11.904------3.202-----14.593------34.126-----42.806
Turcs---------------1.315----34.583-----25.784-----12.244------12.513-----10.838
Croatian-----------5.290-----6.201------ 7.251------ 8.264-------8.717------ 8.161
Other--------------2.103-----3.541-------8.316-------6.248-------7.260-----12.498
Do you see ethnic cleansing? No!? Ok, let me explain. Imagine some village, in the first place that village is etnicaly Serbian. Now imagine some Schiptar family that buying one estate in that village from some serbian peasant. nn the first place they are minority there, but very soon they start bringig relatives from Albania (illegaly of course), and they are trying to buy more estates. They are offering to Serbian families enormous amount of money (money from drugs,weapons, sex and human trafficing...) just to go from there. If that does not work, than goes deterioration and terror. Now, that is what is hapening in the last 100 years. Before (in the time of Ottoman empire, and by its protection), they simply killed Serbs. Don't believe me, ok, see the demographic cards of Albania (Schiptaria), Macedonia, Serbia

Albania
Population 3.619.778
Ethnic Groups
Albanian: 95%
Greek: 3%
other (Vlachs, Roma (Gypsy), Serbs, Macedonians, Bulgarians): 2%
Macedonia
Total: 2.040.929
Ethnic Groups
Macedonians 1.297.981 (64,18%)
Albanian 509.083 (25,17%)
Turcs 77.959 (3,85%)
Roma (Gypsy) 53.879 (2,66%)
Serbs 35.939 (1,78%)
Bošnjaci 17.018 (0,84%)
Vlachs 9.596 (0,48%)
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Serbia
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Anyway, the main goal is Great Albania
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Demographic picture off Kosovo and Metohia has changed several times in this century. Before that, during the five centuries occupation by the Ottoman empire, with many different metods, Turks emotion the Ortodox Serbs and Montenegrins, and population with muslims from Albanian mountins on Kosovo and Metohia
On Year 1929 on Kosovo and Metohia was 61% of Serbs, and 39% of other ethnic groups. After defeath of Kingdom of Yugoslavia 1941 the Kosovo and Metohia was occupated by Italy. This is the first time when we for the firs time hear for "GREAT ALBANIA". Many Serbian families, under the pressure of fascism Albanian and occupation authority, was constrained to leave the Kosovo and Metohia.

Parallel with those events on Kosovo and Metohia was populated with Albanian people from Albania, Turkey and Other Europian countries (where Albanian political emigration lived). Ocupation authority revoked the land reform from the period of Kingdom of Yugoslavia, and the land on Kosovo and Metohia was given only to Albanians from Albania.
Just during the WWII, more than 100.000 Serbswas evicted from Kosovo and Metohia, and approximately the same number of Albanians was settled on Serbs estates.

After WWII, the communism regime of SFRJ drought the law that forbid return to Serb families to their homes on Kosovo and Metohia. Between 1968. and 1988. 700 places was ethnicaly cleaned (no Serbs).

On sensus 1961. there was 646.605 Albanians (67.1% of total population on Kosovo and Metohia). On sensus 1971 there was 916.168 (73.7%) Albanians (this number comprise and the Albanians that flied from the communism regime of Enver Hodza in the Albania. Those Albanians according to my knowledge, easely gain the papers of SFRJ(SFRY), much easier than someone that is born here). In 1974. the statute of SFRJ is changed and Kosovo and Metohia gain the Autonomy, soo now on sensus in 1981. (by the Albanian authority), there was 1.226.736 Albanians(77.48% of total population on Kosovo and Metohia). In 1989. statute is again changed in whome is revoked authonomy of Kosovo and Metohia and returned under jurisdiction of Republic of Serbia (because of numerous crimes and mass exodus of Serbs in that period). That cause that major Albanian people boycott all institutions of the Republic of Serbia includig sensus, because of this, in 1991. the number of Albanian people on Kosovo and Metohia is esteemated by the center of demographic research, and according to that evaluation there was 1.407.690 (78.2% of total population on Kosovo and Metohia).

Albanian ethnic group is in absolute and relative upraise, yet the number of Serbs is in the inverse process. Sensus in 1961. register 264.604 (27.4%) Serbs on Kosovo and Metohia, while on sensus in 1991. register 214.555 (11% of total population on Kosovo and Metohia). All this numbers are just statistic, and every Serb that left Kosovo and Metohia have saome gruesome story that explain the mean on which Hi(She) is enforced to leave his birthplace (threats, blackmail, firing of the houses, ruining of the graveyards and cultural monuments, phisical torture, murder, rape....

According to some evaluations, from the start of WWII, more than 500.000 Serbs left the Kosovo and Metohia.

Sasha, Clearman, tell me now who is ethnicaly cleanced here?
Ser.toma, you may lie others who don't know anything about balkans, but you can't lie me and the albanians that they know thier ovn history! :mrgreen:

After the WWII in kosovo was not more than 1,1% serb "cergas" we vere used to call you "cergas=refuge" like gypsie, traweling around!

And by the way, where is that "Metohija and Kosmet", is it around schumadia, ower banat are in rusia, it's not official that word you are spelling so it's useles!
The other thing is..., keep your rhetorik threts for your self ok!
8-)
The only lier here are you and the other like you that skew the truth, those are the official stats you moron! You dont have any fact to suport your lies, and those your words only confirm what am I telling. But remember something, you will return everithig you dispossess from us!
Romel Wrote:Am reading this and .... :evil:
Bunch of brainwashed, evil blinded, nacionalististic morons speaking nothing but crap. Who killed who? Who raped who? Serbs invaded europe from China. Albanians are higher race then srbs. Serbs raped 100000000 albanians. Albanians burned this, burned that....
You NAZI MF bastards, am really sorry that you are still existing :twisted: :twisted:
I hope you serbs and albanianas will exterminate each other in near future. And i hope you will never join EU!!!
Good Luck!

I asume that you are German or Italian. You just eat your hamburgers, pizza, sausage.. and drink Coca Cola, and don't wory, we shall bring the order to the Balkan, you brainwashed robot. And if I am asking for something than dont wory for us entering your rotten EU.
ser_toma Wrote:The only lier here are you and the other like you that skew the truth, those are the official stats you moron! You dont have any fact to suport your lies, and those your words only confirm what am I telling. But remember something, you will return everithig you dispossess from us!
Sure I will bring you only one prove, that was released by your ally rusia,
just in case to remain you that they will not start any harsh concludion about serb interest,
ass they allredy know the truth about ballkans, a specialy about serbia, there is standing clear on the mup
the serb borders and serb population where they where at the year 1817. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
So god luck with unwanted truth in front of your screen! :? :oops:
[Image: txwRjD040063-02.jpg]
Fim and his great map. Big Grin
I saw it 8 times before now. I'm borring ! Do you have any other map to show us?
Please, fim be more inventive...
What a hell hapened with today Albania and his sons? Wink
STUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUPID!
Do you really believe in this crap that you constantly showing(insane), or you just like that other people belive in it. Let mi tell you something about that map, because you do not know what it means. In first place this map dont show the demographic stucture in OTTOMAN EMPIRE (moron). This map only show the territory that is liberated in the "First Serbian rebelion" agains turkish governors in "Belgrade Pashaluk(province)" (nine of them, who killed 70 Serbian chiefs). Whit Liberation of the Belgrade province, Serbs have had the start, that made them to liberate all the other provices under Ottoman ocupation!!!

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On the left side you may see the borders of the Serbian and Serbian and Greece empire. Now tell me please how is it posible that all the Serb desappear from all those territories. And last but not leest, I am just curious, if you belive in Ottoman maps, how you can not belive that you are not illyrians (hahahahahaha), like they said. Whay are you soo shamed of your own roots?
Ser.toma and clearman, i think you are the same person!

The mup is not turkish but rusian, and is wery wisible to se the border away from mitrovica today ower 100km.
The mitrovica lays around the lake "drini", but it's posible to se where was macedonia, serbia, bulgaria, and the albanian-land, the ilirians the frst people in the balkans!
Seinfeld’s George Costanza famously quipped: “It’s not a lie if you believe it.” - portrait of our anti-schowenist “friend” – fim…..
fim Wrote:Ser.toma and clearman, i think you are the same person!

The mup is not turkish but rusian, and is wery wisible to se the border away from mitrovica today ower 100km.
The mitrovica lays around the lake "drini", but it's posible to se where was macedonia, serbia, bulgaria, and the albanian-land, the ilirians the frst people in the balkans!

Hehehehe I just don't know whay I didn't sayed this before. But for me it waould be a shame to pronounce tha I am a descendant of Ilyrians. Jessus, you people have had the werbal(oral) law, and still have it. For you, those laws are stronger than writen law. Whay? Because you didn't knew to write untyl 18 century. And for the god all migty, Albania is funded 1913, please stop whit this rubdish. At this moment I realy dont hate you, i moan you people. You see in Serbia, on the last sensus we have few eskimo, and some other stupidti, but you people have mass madnes

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This are some event that hapendin the past, but you must remember only one name here Georgios Maniakes, this man brought you on Balkan from Sicily

Pls, dont post anything anymore, and no, I am not Clareman. By the way, Clareman where are you from?
Quote:Ser.toma and clearman, i think you are the same person!
You think like fim and Illyricum Sacre are?
The medieval origins of the Balkan conflict areas – Abstract
By ALEXANDRU MADGEARU - Senior researcher at the Institute for Political Studies of Defence and Military History, Bucharest

From the ethnical point of view, the Balkan Peninsula represents one of the most mixed regions in the world. The fragmented landscape has determined the rise of many small power centers fighting one another for the supremacy over a greater area. This feature of the Balkan history could be observed since the ancient times. The first unification of this region was possible only because it was achieved by an external power: the Romans.
The theories about the ethnical origins and about the primary homelands of the Balkan peoples were often biased by political interests and used as ideological weapons.
The Middle Ages began in the Balkans with the settlement of the Slavs in the former Roman provinces during the 7th century. A part of the autochthonous population escaped in highlands or in peripheral areas, while other people of Roman and Greek origin were assimilated by the newcomers during the 7th-9th centuries. The initial Slavic unity was split when several states appeared in the 7th-10th centuries. The different ways of conversion to Christianity had great consequences for the emergence of the Balkan Slavic peoples. Serbs, Bosnians and Croats are speaking the same language and are in fact the same people, but the opposite denominations cancelled this unity.
The Slavs dramatically changed the ethnical situation of the Balkan Peninsula. They expanded over all this area, including Macedonia and Greece, where they settled in large number in the lower regions. The ethnic mosaic from Macedonia and Kosovo resulted from the mixing of the new populations settled in low areas with the ancient populations retired in high areas. The Slavs from Greece were Hellenized after the Byzantine recovery, during the 9th century. The Slavic area became thus smaller, but further events brought new Slavic populations in Macedonia (the Serbian colonization in the 14th century). The Ottoman conquests caused an opposite movement of the Slavic population, from Macedonia and Kosovo to the north. The Turkish colonization started in 1354 added a new element in the intricate ethnic structure of several Balkan areas, especially in southern Bulgaria, Macedonia, Kosovo and Bosnia.
Besides the Greeks, the Balkan Peninsula is peopled by two other ethnical groups that are not Slavic: the Albanians and the Vlachs (or Aroumanians). The Albanians spread over large areas after the 13th century. In this way they caused new changes in the ethnic structure of Kosovo and Macedonia, especially after they entered in the service of the Ottoman Empire as new Muslims. The Albanians were already present in Kosovo before the Ottoman conquest, but their number increased very much after this event, while many Serbs drove away the region. Being scattered in many groups, the Vlachs were not able to establish their own state and in this way they became a minority in all the Balkan states.
Both Albanians and Serbs have used the theories about the Albanian ethnogenesis as weapons in the political propaganda. The location of the territory where Albanians were born is subjected to controversy. This fact enabled the use of historical arguments for or against the Albanian’s rights over the regions where they are living now. If the historians and the linguists sustain the autochthonous origin of the Albanians in Albania and maybe in Kosovo, then these conclusions are assumed by the Albanian propaganda, either or not their authors had this purpose. If the historical and linguistical data do not support an ancient presence of the Albanians in Kosovo, then these points of view are embraced by the official Serbian historiography.
Several linguists tried to assign an Illyrian origin of the Albanian language, but the phonetics and the main part of the vocabulary are of Thracian origin and by this reason are akin with the Dacian substratum of the Romanian language. The Albanian scholars sustain the Illyrian theory because it supports the autochthony of their people in the present Albania, but also in Kosovo and western Macedonia.
The Albanians were influenced by the Roman civilization, but they were not Romanized. This means that their original homeland should be located into an area where the Romanization was not achieved. The Albanian historians proposed the Mati tableland (northern Albania) and Kosovo (in order to legitimate their continuity). The archaeological evidence does not support this point of view, because it is not sure that the Komani-Krujë culture belonged to the Proto-Albanians. However, other solutions were expressed, like the descendance from the Dacian tribe of Carpi (moved in the Roman Empire in the late 3rd century) or from the Thracian tribes Dardanians and Bessi.
It seems therefore possible that the Albanians were present in the central part of the Balkan Peninsula before the Slavic invasions. However, the single certain fact is their survival in the mountains of the northern Albania, where they took refuge during the Slavic migrations. The population of Macedonia, Kosovo and from the plain areas of Albania became in majority Slavic after the 7th century. In the same regions also lived a population of Roman origin, which spoke a disappeared language. The Vlachs (Aroumanians) are attested since the 10th century in the same area. The Albanian tribes returned in the plain areas and acquired step by step a significant proportion in the population, because they benefited from various events and from the economic situation.
The disputed problem of the Albanian ethnogenesis area is used as a propagandistic weapon both by Serbs and Albanians.
The Illyrian theory was invented in the 16th century with the purpose to ascribe an autochthonous origin to the Croats and to support the fight against the Ottomans. The same theory was used in the 19th century in relation with the Russian panslavism. Because these ideas supported the brotherhood between Croats and Serbs, they were replaced with other when the dispute between the two peoples became manifest. The Croatian separatism was firstly founded on their supposed Germanic origin (in the interwar period). More importance was given to the theory of the Iranian origin, which is based on some disputable data about the 7th century Croats. It is very probable that the Croats have inherited the name of a group of warriors of Iranian origin from the Avar confederation, but this fact does not mean that the Croats are Iranians (the same is true in the case of the Bulgarians, which are Slavs, but are keeping the name of the conquering Türkic aristocracy). All these theories were built in order to disprove the obvious ethnical and linguistic identity between Croats and Serbs.
On the other hand, a recent theory tries to prove that the Serbs settled in the country before the Croats, during the 6th century. The arguments are not suitable.
The irredentist policy of the Balkan states was often founded on historical myths, but it is obvious that the medieval conquests can not justify the present territorial claims.


Kosovo- Serbian or Albanian ?

The Albanians riots of 1981 determined the Yugoslavian historians to find arguments against the Albanian claims on Kosovo. They denied the Illyrian origin of the Dardanians and also the Illyrian origin of the Albanians. The great Serbian archaeologist Milutin Garashanin, who drew up the conclusions of the session, affirmed that the Albanians have no historical rights in Kosovo. Garashanin sustained in his paper that Dardanians were Thracians, although in his previous studies he accepted the theory of the Illyrian origin of this tribe. The problem of the ethnic origin of the Albanians and of their continuity in Kosovo was discussed at the congress of the Serbian Communist Party in June 1982, when the speakers said that the theory of the Illyrian origin of the Albanian people is racist.
The Yugoslavian historians fulfilled an intensive propagandistic campaign in order to convince the Western public about their historical rights in Kosovo, before and during the Kosovo crisis. They published many books and articles and they are also using websites for spreading their ideas. The Albanians did the same. They tried to give full support to the autonomist policy in Kosovo, before and after 1990, with the aid of the dogma of the Illyrian origin of the Albanian people. They are also emphasizing the presence of the Albanians in the medieval Kosovo.
It is obvious that the Serbs are not autochthonous in Kosovo, because all the Slavs are not genuine Balkan populations. Serbia conquered Kosovo in the 13th century, when - it is true - this area became the political and spiritual centre of the state, until the end of the 14th century. This province acquired a symbolic place in the Serbian and Yugoslavian national mythology by several reasons: in Kosovo ruled the great emperor Stephen Dushan, in Kosovo were built the most important Serbian religious monuments, and finally in Kosovo took place the heroic battle against the Ottomans in 1389.
On the other hand, it is true that the Albanians reached the majority in Kosovo during the Ottoman domination because they benefited from that regime. They could be even the inheritors of the ancient population of Kosovo (Dardania). We can also remark that nobody in this quarrel speaks about the Vlach population (Aroumanians, Aromâni), although this population was recorded by the Serbian deeds, since the first years of the Serbian domination in Kosovo.
The medieval history does not allow us to decide who has now more rights in Kosovo: Albanians, Serbs or maybe Vlachs ? This is the historical reality. But the reality can be manipulated according to the interests of each part involved, because each part can find useful and valid arguments for its point of view, Serbian or Albanian. By this reason we consider that the use and the abuse of the medieval history is not able to resolve the interethnic conflict of Kosovo.

I think it is a neutral point of view about the medieval history in Balkans. Today we use too many times history for our policies and interests.

I agree that today Albanians are 90% of Kosovo population, but Kosovo had never been an independent state until the Rambouillet dictates. In fact, I never agree the self independence of Kosovo with America’s support, against the Serbian nation - one sovereign state - by the force of the powerful army in the world.



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fim Wrote:Ser.toma and clearman, i think you are the same person!
C'mon man, I told you already..... I'm not Russian, I'm not Serb.

@ ser_toma: I'm Italian with vlach's origin.

sasha Wrote:You think like fim and Illyricum Sacre are?
The same person, indeed.
Guest Wrote:
oesophagus Wrote:In my humble opinion as ex KFOR solider, I think that Serbs and Albanians are right and wrong at the same time about Kosovo. There is a lot of B... S... about this subject, a lot of albanian and serbian propaganda. Thing that i know, things are not black and white in this matter and that we came to Kosovo to save ethnic albanian population from raging serbs, and we ended saving serbs from albanians.
I also noticed there some interesting (to me) facts: Oldest buidings on kosovo are serbian fortresses and churches from 9 th century, and albanian have 300 yrs old mosques. Albanians are large ethnic majority and serbs are minority. About time of 1st WW (1914) and serbs and albanians was 50 % of Kosovos population, and had good relations. Average albanian family have 4 or 5 children, and serb family has one or 2 children. Serbs are afraid of albanians, albanians are not afraid of serbs. Serbs familyes mostly are poor and live in small and old houses, and albanians are not so, and live in bigger houses. Older serbians and older albanians live together and help each other, at the same time young serbs and albanians hate each other. Most of populated places in Kosovo with ethnicly clean albanian population have serbian origin names, and old and half ruined serbian graveyards in centre. Word "Kosovo" on serbian means hills with tall grass, on albanian language means nothing.
And at the end I think that real bad guys in this sad story are US and EU administration. Instead to help them to find some acceptable solution for problem they decided to take one side in this conflict. Kososvo's independence is triumph of our force and clumsiness over justice, another big explosive mess up, just hidden under the carpet.
At last, someone who have brain, eyes and morality to say the truth... thank you
It is my opinion too...
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America wants peace or Wars made easy
So long, my friends... :lol:
sasha or clearman, this things wot you write in here are nonsens,
it's fake, and nobady will ever believe a lie is made by serb-ultranacionalists!
I agree with you fim, but that is another matter. Lies are lies. Do you think that lies of Albanian ultranationalists produce more sutable lies for that purpose?

... I ask nonsence, of course you are.
Do you see, if I bring a "copy&paste text in here, are any thing is newer heard before..., no newer? :o
I only tell the truth we are facing today, and no long halucinous story like you do sasha and or clearman!
Actualy I em not reading that long nonsens text storyes you are bringin in here, nighther I watch your links! :? :lol:
keep walking in your false direction, crazy boy! Or maybe you are paid for this hocus-pocus job! 8-)
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