egg Wrote:Saakashvili’s attempt to take over South Ossetia was a stupidly reckless gamble which deserved to fail, much as I sympathise in some other respects with Georgia, which, at any rate in the foothils of the Caucasus, struck me as a beautiful country when I was there in 1985. I doubt whether he will be able to get back to anything like as favourable a position as he was in last Thursday.

It is now almost the mirror image of Kosovo – the people of a part of Serbia wanted to be either independent or part of Albania; the Serbs tried to maintain their control; NATO, and in particular the US Air Force, behaved just as the Russians have done in the last four or five days, bombing not only Kosovo but Belgrade, the main bridge across the Danube and other parts of Serbia; and the result is that the internationally agreed boundary of Serbia, which included Kosovo, was changed so that, at any rate in the eyes of the USA and some NATO countries though not Russia, Kosovo ceased to be part of Serbia.

I can see no possible ground on which NATO can criticise the Russians for doing almost exactly what NATO did in 1999 (though at less risk to members of their own forces). The only difference is that Serbia was deliberately provoked by the KLA into taking necessary action to deal with the KLA terrorists, whereas the South Ossetians were not actually doing anything particularly provocative of that kind - Saakashvili's attack on South Ossetia seems to have been timed to coincide with the Olympics when Putin was in China, and not due to any acts on the part of the South Ossetians or the Russian peacekeepers (several of whom were killed by Georgian troops in the initial attack).

As to Western involvement, either the US authorities knew in advance what Saakashvili was intending to do and did nothing to stop him, or they did not know and the CIA is even less efficient than it has appeared to be in some other cases. Either way, the West has yielded the moral high ground to Russia and has now no useful contribution to make.

egg Wrote:Saakashvili’s attempt to take over South Ossetia was a stupidly reckless gamble which deserved to fail, much as I sympathise in some other respects with Georgia, which, at any rate in the foothils of the Caucasus, struck me as a beautiful country when I was there in 1985. I doubt whether he will be able to get back to anything like as favourable a position as he was in last Thursday.

It is now almost the mirror image of Kosovo – the people of a part of Serbia wanted to be either independent or part of Albania; the Serbs tried to maintain their control; NATO, and in particular the US Air Force, behaved just as the Russians have done in the last four or five days, bombing not only Kosovo but Belgrade, the main bridge across the Danube and other parts of Serbia; and the result is that the internationally agreed boundary of Serbia, which included Kosovo, was changed so that, at any rate in the eyes of the USA and some NATO countries though not Russia, Kosovo ceased to be part of Serbia.

I can see no possible ground on which NATO can criticise the Russians for doing almost exactly what NATO did in 1999 (though at less risk to members of their own forces). The only difference is that Serbia was deliberately provoked by the KLA into taking necessary action to deal with the KLA terrorists, whereas the South Ossetians were not actually doing anything particularly provocative of that kind - Saakashvili's attack on South Ossetia seems to have been timed to coincide with the Olympics when Putin was in China, and not due to any acts on the part of the South Ossetians or the Russian peacekeepers (several of whom were killed by Georgian troops in the initial attack).

As to Western involvement, either the US authorities knew in advance what Saakashvili was intending to do and did nothing to stop him, or they did not know and the CIA is even less efficient than it has appeared to be in some other cases. Either way, the West has yielded the moral high ground to Russia and has now no useful contribution to make.

aranar63 Wrote:To all of you parruskies, if you want to mess with us, i say bring it on, we face you in Berlin, some 50 years ago you back down, today east berlin does not exist any longer, we glandly face you again, any time any where, we face you again in Cuba, again you back down, did you want me to continue? send one of you bombers over our skies at least try maybe Alaska, oh why not American Samoa, the smallest US territory drop a bomb see what happen next. Or Diego Garcia.

Peacekeaper123 Wrote:Why should we try Alaska, or American Samoa? Where is logic in your words?

aranar63 Wrote:To all of you parruskies, if you want to mess with us, i say bring it on, we face you in Berlin, some 50 years ago you back down, today east berlin does not exist any longer, we glandly face you again, any time any where, we face you again in Cuba, again you back down, did you want me to continue? send one of you bombers over our skies at least try maybe Alaska, oh why not American Samoa, the smallest US territory drop a bomb see what happen next. Or Diego Garcia.

aranar63 Wrote:"remember we still are the only 13 trillion dollars economy in the world and probably will be for the next 10 years". This is true. And 10 years sounds realistically. I fully share this pessimism of yours as to the US

This is not pessimism, our economy is stil growin not fuel by oil or gas, but by exports, not like Russia, nothing we would like more then to see China grow up to 20 to 30 trillion dollars, it will mean that we can export a lot more to China, wich in return will fuel our economy, for now it is us driving the Chinese economy.
As it will be for a long more time to come, if we slow Europe (the EU) will slow, China will slow, maybe Mended-evil will find a way of growing, personally i think it will slow dramatically, see what happend when we don't drive as much from $147 to $115 and it keeps going down, that means the america consumer is at the wheel, not Putin or Mended-evil, it is market economics my friend, offer and demand, you may have a lot to offer but if we are not buying the price of your commodities will fall. Thats the difference between the US and Russia.
As far as you liking the Vibe, is good i personaly don't, making $100,000 a year you are quite well, but your per capita income is extremly low as you are rank at 62 from 63 countries, and i remain you that most of it it hold by your oligarchs and the apartchik.
You like the vibe probably because is the one that you can buy, nothing else, but you GDP is a patetic 1.3 trillion dollars our is 13 trillion dollars, lets face it even if we contract and russia expand it will take russia almost 20 years to get to 13 trillions dollars, because if we contract you too will contract like the rest of the world. But by that time our GDP will be in the 20 to 30 trillion range.
We use everybody else ressources and not ours, we sit on a ton of oil, coal etc etc, and buy everything from other countries, this is why our 3 oil companies make almos 50 billion dollars a year, that 1.5 billions a that is only 3 companies in our land,lets put it in perspective thats 1% of your GDP, please name me one Russian company making 1% of the US GDP, not even China has one.
Enjoy the oil ride as it last, because as soon as we put in place a plan to walk away from fossil fuel, Russias party will end. Our economy is fuel by inovation and High tech, with no one in the world following close.
You could not keep up with us in Soviet time and won't in this century, remember China ha a status of most prefered nation (their goods don't pay taxes when they come to us) we can change that, at any time.
So keep dreaming of imperial Russia, we are waiting when mother Russia will want Alaska back.
And yes we are cowboys with a lot of guns, we do not like for a big country to occupied a small one, as far as Iraq, sadam was warn several times, as we move 200,000 soldiers half way around the globe to fight Sadam and yes it was wrong and Bush was wrong, but we do not spinn this as you guys are doing with South Ossetia.
And please put it in perspective, we do have poor in the US, but they are not as poor as in Russia and China etc etc. Our living standard is extremly high, even compare to the EU, wich i remain you is a bunch of states,
we are still one country, by the way Brasil GDP is bigger the Russia.
So keep dreaming, by the way the war stop, lets see whats happend next, may be finally Adolf-Putin and Herman-Mended-evil (Hitler and Ghoering)finally got it, without the west Russia can not survive.

egg Wrote:qwerty wrote:

"...when we went there [Kosovo] we had international madate to do this ..."

There was no UN mandate whatever for the US and NATO attack on Serbia in 1999, which was in clear breach of the Charter of the United Nations.

Professor Lieven, a senior fellow of the New America Foundation in Washington DC and a Professor at King's College London, wrote an informative article in The London Times yesterday, which ended:

"What remains is an absolute determination [on the part of Russia] not to be defeated by Georgia and not to suffer the humiliation of having to abandon Russia’s South Ossete client state, with everything that this would mean for Russian prestige in other areas. Vladimir Putin’s Kremlin made it clear again and again that if Georgia attacked South Ossetia, Russia would fight. Georgian advocates in the West claimed that Moscow was only bluffing. It wasn’t."

As I say, a gross failure on the part of the Western "friends" of Georgia and/or of the CIA, for which Georgia is now paying (having first inflicted disproportionate damage and casualties and caused 30,000 refugees to flee from their homes in South Ossetia).

Moskal Wrote:This forum is full of paranoid russophobs who are not good enough in English... However, they consistently ignore the truth which is the fact that it was Georgian troops that killed 2000 civilians in the town of Tskhinval within 1 or 2 days, using heavy arms. They deliberately killed even women, children and the elderly. They sadistically shot the wounded and helpless peacekeepers. And all this was inspired, organized and led by the Georgian politicians, Saakashvili in the first place, under strong guiding arm of Uncle Sam from overseas.

Only later, almost a day after the Russian army invaded and - yes! - bit the shit of of the Georgian scum, for they are scum as were German nazis.

Now, the time has come. The time to pay. And you will all see very soon how Saakashvili and his ministers and MPs will stand before the international tribunal, unless they manage to kill themselves before...

This is what they have deserved and will receive!

aranar63 Wrote:he thing is, nobody cares to compete with the US financially - except the EU, probablly. No one denies that Uncle Sam is rich. I only wanted to say that this fact alone is not enough to dictate your opinion to everybody else in the world. Not anymore. You have to face it. As to consuming - you may consume as much as you like, who cares? If that's the meaning of your life, that's totally fine with me. Different priorities, is all. Only your share is shrinking day by day, and I may say you don't like it much. Well, that's understandable - who would?

Nobody cares or nobody can't, the next 5 richest countries GDP don't equal ours, thats Japan, China, Germany,the UK,France etc etc.
Cunsumerism drives the world economy, ask the Chinese, they will tell you, Walmart buys as much from China as your countries GDP
By the way if you ever understand Capitalism, uncle Sam is not rich, our federal reserve owes nothing in this country, we do the citizens, Uncle Sam just gets our Taxes, and the corporations, this is not Russia or China, by the way we do agree on no further scalation, this can't happen, my point is if your country wants to expand it should do it in a peacefull way, not by force, your goverment should be interested in making life better for people not living in Moskow or SPB, not engage in anexation of another country, it is just wastefull money, ask us we will tell you (Iraq) where we have spend 1.5 trillions dollars allready.
We don't fear the future, we embrace it, our system will take care of this.
Our share is schrinking, revise your economic data, our economy grew from 5 trillions to 13 in 8 years, and yes we have problems, but we will solve it,Capitalism has its cycles of up and downs.
i do hope that this war stop and does not scalate, under any circumstances.
But occupation will not be the end solution, you know this.

aranar63 Wrote:I got it, he is not gutsy he is nutsy. Are you lunatic or what? perhaps one of your guns shot out your brain? Or havent you learnt history? East Berlin does not exist . Warshaw Pact does not exist, and Soviet Union becouse of internal problems, read some books. And why should we drop bombs on Alaska or enywere else? It is obvius that you know nothing about S Osetian conflict. If you think we need territory LOOK AT THE MAP!!!
And unlike you we know that just attack someone is wrong!
Anyway quit with your empty claims or create another topic, this topic is not about economy, or warmongering cowboys.

Listen you don't have to tell me that, i lived in Berlin for over 8 years, when you guys could not even go to your front door without permission, but it was not because of the grace of the Kremlin that all this countries became free, it was because back then the SU could not compete with us neither militarely not economical, as it is the case now(not because of internal problems),you should read some books about the SU implossion, it was pure economic pressure as the SU could not keep spending, what we where and still are in our military to compete with us, yes Russia is better of now then it was back then.Thanks to oil and gas not industry.
just tell me please how many foreign embassies are in South Ossetia?
When the world reconigze it as a sovereign state? show me the link, as far as maps i use google earth, and have acces to a lot more ressources then you, for sure.
If South Ossetia is not recognize by the world, then Russia is wrong attacking another country, you don't like what happend in Kosovo, why then you guys don't send the Russian army westward, it was a client state too.
Oh no they will have to go thru Poland or another EU and NATO state.
Look at your map i do not see a border between Georgia and S Ossetia in any map.
may be you guys are in need to re writte history ala Stalin, at least this will make you guys happy.

aranar63 Wrote:
[color=#FF0040]Mr:Reagan who brought the SU down you guys schould build a monument to him in red square, without him, you will be still in need of papers to go from the front of your house to the supermarket, remember that.

aranar63 Wrote:These argument reminds me very much of Reagan-inspired yuppie. This era is a history - became a history while you were making yourself busy with consumption. You are a history, man. The world has changed, can't you see it? Your worldview stinks.

Oh yes and the big bad Russian bear is about to over take us, look around you, but a leats your a right that history, get it the SU is no more and as much as Russia has oil and Gas nothing more, i do not see your country leading in anything else, sad for a well developed rich intelligent people, with a history of accomplishment in science.
What happend when e consume, we get rich, and a bunch of other countries do, why is it that the whole world wants a piece of the US market? even Russia beg to be included in the WTO, why is it that it is call the G7 and Russia and not the G8.
I have being in your country several times and not only in Moskow and SPB, but even this cities do not compare with the big American cities, and they won't talk when your countrie is not a emergin market but a economic power, mean while we will keep consuming anybody else ressources, we are only 300 million people consuming 30 to 40% of the world ressources, an we do not use ours, no need to.
We have no need to anex another country to demostrate our power, nor do we want to. By the way is Mr:Reagan who brought the SU down you guys schould build a monument to him in red square, without him, you will be still in need of papers to go from the front of your house to the supermarket, remember that.