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+--- Thread: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? (/thread-1734.html)
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - SVP - 08-23-2008
Lor Wrote:Yes i oppose those 25-40 old people that went on the streets, without seeing how lunatic this action is.
I personally understand a part of these people' feelings. Some of them joined Nazis to revenge their killed/raped mothers/wives/daughters by NKVD. For them personally everything makes sense,they chose the worse from two evils.
I would REALLY disapprove this get together if they would wear or carry any SS nazi flags or uniforms, but:
The event saw veterans attending church service, lay flowers at a war memorial and attend a celebratory concert.
Tell me how threatening they are? They are old and in 5 years, probably won't be any...
Tell me if they're no SS skinheads organizations in Russia, accounting by thousands? Young and angry?
Honestly, not only the SS legion fighters are no threat, but their countries don't represent any. They don't have imperialistic politics, intentions nor any power.
So, you admit they chose THE WORST EVIL OF THE TWO? WHO IS THE WORST? GERMANY OR USSR?
I would agree, that some joined Nazis for revenge etc. But some - just because they WANTED it, because they shared the NAZI ideology, and like Germans, they killed jews, russians, byelorussians, I mean civilians. And then there were concentration camps. Actually, the Germans were not a threat to the Baltic states, as well as to a Switzerland, DEnmark, Sweden, Finland. These were their brother-countries - the northern arian brotherhood :-)
You are mistaken about uniform - they ARE wearing it at parades, meetings etc. Please check out here:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://photofile.ru/users/stopnazi/2444938/44601396/full_image/">http://photofile.ru/users/stopnazi/2444 ... ull_image/</a><!-- m -->
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://photofile.ru/users/stopnazi/2444938/44601305/full_image/">http://photofile.ru/users/stopnazi/2444 ... ull_image/</a><!-- m -->
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://photofile.ru/users/stopnazi/2444938/44601099/full_image/">http://photofile.ru/users/stopnazi/2444 ... ull_image/</a><!-- m -->
I admit, there are skinheads in Russia. I personally, want death sentence for skin-heading :-) But the organizations are not thousands in number. If you have other info - please name at least one thousand organizations. There are only tens of small nazi groups. But, they are not officially honored by the state, they are actually forbidden, though it's difficult to send them to prison even (laws, corruption etc).
In Baltic Republics it's diffrent - monuments, parades, pensions - all with support of the state. Of course, they have a nice tale, about joining just to fight the USSR. Joining the army of the state, that sold them to the USSR :-)
Of course, we are not afraid of them. They're not scary, they are just Nazi soldiers who killed my compatriots, Russian soldiers.
You mentioned imperialistic intentions. I understand, the hint is about Russia again? Let's talk about imperialistic Russia when it actually occupies or catures at least one country, OK? I think this'll never happen :-)
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Lor - 08-24-2008
Respect your views - will be out for a week Traveling.
Comments will be posted then.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Simon A - 08-24-2008
Starting from 1989 the Georgian government has supported the policy of oppression and intimidation of the population in South Ossetia. Starting from 1991 as the consequence of repeated military actions that were undertaken by the Georgian government against their own people thousands of civilians have been killed. The western media was silent due to the US strategic interests in the region and its current US sponsored puppet government. And what is the reason for this? The same old story: the oil pipeline which goes through Georgia supplying the US and Europe.
So what is the result? What did happen? This is something that you won't see on your TV.
The chronology and the facts are taken from the UN assembly meeting. They are not subject to any misinterpretation by any media. EU, USA and Russia all agree with the information stated below except for some statements that are disputed. Those statements will be marked for your notice.
10 pm 07.08.2008
Georgian military forces invaded the separatist region of South Ossetia.
3 30 am 08.08.2008
Georgian tanks entered the city of Tskhinvali. Georgian artillery strikes resulted in deaths of many soldiers and civilians living in South Ossetia including some Russian peacekeepers. (Russians claim that 1600-2000 civilians were killed due to Georgian artillery strikes and insist on calling those actions - genocide. US denied all the genocide claims. Russian military inspectors conducted an investigation and collected evidence of the genocide committed that was then given to the UN. No respond was given yet.)
The evening of 08.08.2008
The Russian peacekeepers arrived in South Ossetia in order to resolve the conflict, provide peace and to protect Russian citizens living on the territory of South Ossetia (about 75-90% of the populace). The Russians were obliged to intervene by the agreements signed between them and Georgia in the early ninety's. (The justification for the intervention was positively accepted by the UN including USA.
The fact, that Georgia started military actions of the first is rejected by nobody. The question stands only about too strong military answer of Russia.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - chena - 08-24-2008
Simon A Wrote:Starting from 1989 the Georgian government has supported the policy of oppression and intimidation of the population in South Ossetia. Starting from 1991 as the consequence of repeated military actions that were undertaken by the Georgian government against their own people thousands of civilians have been killed. The western media was silent due to the US strategic interests in the region and its current US sponsored puppet government. And what is the reason for this? The same old story: the oil pipeline which goes through Georgia supplying the US and Europe.
So what is the result? What did happen? This is something that you won't see on your TV.
The chronology and the facts are taken from the UN assembly meeting. They are not subject to any misinterpretation by any media. EU, USA and Russia all agree with the information stated below except for some statements that are disputed. Those statements will be marked for your notice.
10 pm 07.08.2008
Georgian military forces invaded the separatist region of South Ossetia.
3 30 am 08.08.2008
Georgian tanks entered the city of Tskhinvali. Georgian artillery strikes resulted in deaths of many soldiers and civilians living in South Ossetia including some Russian peacekeepers. (Russians claim that 1600-2000 civilians were killed due to Georgian artillery strikes and insist on calling those actions - genocide. US denied all the genocide claims. Russian military inspectors conducted an investigation and collected evidence of the genocide committed that was then given to the UN. No respond was given yet.)
The evening of 08.08.2008
The Russian peacekeepers arrived in South Ossetia in order to resolve the conflict, provide peace and to protect Russian citizens living on the territory of South Ossetia (about 75-90% of the populace). The Russians were obliged to intervene by the agreements signed between them and Georgia in the early ninety's. (The justification for the intervention was positively accepted by the UN including USA.
The fact, that Georgia started military actions of the first is rejected by nobody. The question stands only about too strong military answer of Russia.
Dear Megobrebo,
I sent the link to this article just a minute ago, but I should've just copied and pasted. Anyway, more support for what many have already suspected.
Best wishes,
Natalie
Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty
August 23, 2008
Scene At Russia-Georgia Border Hinted At Scripted Affair
by Brian Whitmore
Said Tsarnayev stumbled into a war.
A Chechen freelance photographer with the Reuters news agency, Tsarnayev arrived in the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali, during the day on August 7. Traveling together with a colleague, Tsarnayev said he planned to take photographs of the environment and natural surroundings in the area for a project he was working on.
Once in Tskhinvali, he discovered a virtual army of Russian journalists at his hotel.
Speaking to RFE/RL's North Caucasus Service, Tsarnayev, a resident of the Chechen capital, Grozny, said the Moscow-based reporters had been sent from various Russian media outlets days earlier, and were preparing to cover something big.
"At the hotel we discovered that there were already 48 Russian journalists there. Together with us, there were 50 people," Tsarnayev said. "I was the only one representing a foreign news agency. The rest were from Russian media and they arrived three days before we did, as if they knew that something was going to happen. Earlier at the border crossing, we met one man who was taking his wife and children from Tskhinvali."
Late that night, armed conflict broke out between Russia and Georgia.
'No Relationship To Reality'
Tsarnayev's account could not be independently confirmed. But it is consistent with mounting indications that Russia had been planning an attack on Georgia in advance, and was just waiting for a pretext to carry it out.
Russia's state-controlled media seemed extremely well-prepared to cover the outbreak of armed conflict in Georgia. Television networks immediately presented elaborate graphics with news anchors and commentators appearing to stick to disciplined talking points accusing Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili of aggression, and the Georgian armed forces of genocide and ethnic cleansing.
The country's best English-speaking officials were made readily available to Western media, where they relentlessly pushed Moscow's line on the conflict: Russia was simply protecting its citizens and peacekeepers in South Ossetia from atrocities at the hands of Georgia's military.
In an interview with RFE/RL in the early days of the conflict, Steven Pifer, a former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine who is now a visiting fellow at the Brookings Institution in Washington, said Moscow's rhetoric and media narrative suggests they were preparing a large-scale operation.
"The rhetoric that is coming out of Moscow, ethnic cleansing and genocide, is just way over the top," Pifer said. "It's almost approaching the point where there is just no relationship to reality. But again, certainly the rhetoric is appropriate to a larger operation against Georgia to just stop and reverse whatever military gains the Georgians made in South Ossetia on [August 7]."
The apparently well-prepared media narrative is only part of the picture.
On August 3, authorities in Georgia's Moscow-backed separatist province of South Ossetia began evacuating hundreds of children to Russia. At the time, Georgian officials said the move could be a signal that separatist authorities, and their patrons in Russia, were preparing an offensive.
South Ossetian authorities said at the time that the evacuations were a precaution in case Georgia attempted to retake the province by force -- something Moscow and Tskhinvali had been accusing Tbilisi of plotting to do.
Speaking at a news conference in Moscow on August 21, the deputy head of Russia's General Staff, Colonel General Anatoly Nogovitsyn, reiterated Moscow's claims that the Georgian side was preparing to use force.
"We have complaints against the OSCE regarding the initial stage of the conflict -- they were informed by the Georgian side that there would be an invasion, but they didn't warn the Russian peacekeepers," Nogovitsyn said.
In remarks reported by "The Washington Post," Georgian Defense Minister Davit Kezerashvili said he gave the order for Georgian forces to "go out from their bases" at 6 p.m. local time local time on August 7, just one hour before Saakashvili announced a unilateral cease-fire.
Months In The Works
Kezerashvili said the Georgian troop movement was designed to deter South Ossetian separatists, who were firing across the de facto border into Georgian-controlled villages.
But observers say the march toward war on Moscow's side began months earlier.
In fact, hostilities began escalating soon after NATO delayed granting Membership Action Plans -- a key phase before full membership -- to Georgia and Ukraine at its summit in early April.
Less than two weeks later, Vladimir Putin, who was in the last month of his presidency, signed a decree authorizing direct relations with and assistance for Georgia's two pro-Moscow separatist provinces, Abkhazia and South Ossetia.
Later in April, Russia deployed 1,500 additional troops, some of them heavily armed, to its "peacekeeping" contingent in Abkhazia without Georgia's consent -- an express violation of the 1994 cease-fire agreement.
Russia also began shooting down Georgia's unmanned drone aircraft that were conducting reconnaissance over Abkhazia. Russian military aircraft also began regularly violating Georgian airspace near the separatist territory.
In June, Russia deployed unarmed troops to Abkhazia to rebuild a rail link between Sukhumi and Ochamchira. At the time, Moscow presented the move as a humanitarian gesture to improve Abkhazia's transportation infrastructure. But U.S. and Georgian officials later pointed out that the railway was used to transport military equipment and munitions into Georgia during the conflict.
Then, with everybody watching Abkhazia, the focus abruptly shifted to South Ossetia.
In July, Russia's armed forces began massive military training exercises in the north Caucasus involving 8,000 servicemen and 700 pieces of military hardware. Russia's 58th Army, which would later spearhead the incursion into Georgia on August 8, was the key unit in those maneuvers.
The 58th Army remained in the North Caucasus after the exercises. Shortly thereafter, Georgian and South Ossetian separatist forces began exchanging artillery, mortar, and sniper fire across the de facto border. Georgian officials accuse the separatists of instigating the exchanges, but South Ossetian authorities deny the allegation.
Pifer said is appears that Russia laid a well-prepared trap for the Georgians, and Tbilisi took the bait.
"The Georgian leadership made a mistake on [August 7]. They should have understood from what they have seen from the Russians that the Russians were looking for a pretext. They [the Georgians] gave them that pretext when they decided to go in a fairly large way into South Ossetia," Pifer said. "The speed of the Russian response suggests that the Russians were ready, they were just waiting for the reason and they took that as the reason."
Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty © 2008 RFE/RL, Inc. All Rights Reserved
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Simon A - 08-24-2008
Saakashvili is the fascist and the murderer ofchildren, women and old men. He began war from South Ossetia. He will bring many misfortunes of Georgia.
The crimes of georgian's army in S. Ossetia <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=OE1WNJOfnHY">http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=OE1WNJOfnHY</a><!-- m -->.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - SVP - 08-24-2008
Simon A Wrote:The fact, that Georgia started military actions of the first is rejected by nobody. The question stands only about too strong military answer of Russia.
I can explain why the military answer was "too strong" (though I think it was not strong enough). Three reasons.
1. If the Russian troops stayed inside South Ossetia and go no further - the fighting would still be there, taking more and more lives every day from each side. Even more Russian and Ossetian lives, because the Georgian positions were on the prevailing heights arount Tshinvali, while Tshinvali itself is like a trap below.
2. Destroying military targets in the mainland Georgia was necessary for the same reason - to destroy the military potential of the aggressor and make him run. Thus, bringing the conflict to an end as quickly as possible ans aave lives. This tactics is always used by NATO and US - in Yugoslavia, Iraq. 24-o-clock bombings of mainland Yugoslavia, including Beograde.
3. This is my personal view, shared by many Russians. The country, headed by such a reckless and mentally unbalanced president must be forbidden to have any military potential and army at all. Like it was with Germany after WWII.
About the term "genocide". Of course, the US would not like to admit there was one, because all that Saakashvili was doing, was done in the name of US and EU, as he said. Nor US, neither EU would never done anything like this, and I know they are shocked by him. Many people have incorrect understanding of the term "genocide". They remember genocide of the Jews, that were millions of people. And since, here there are not millions, it's not genocide. Wrong. Georgia called it a special operation to put law and order back to South Ossetia, fighting the bandits, and their leaders. But they did not fight separate gangsters or groups of gangsters, or leaders. One ethnicity used volley artillery, tanks, aviation to kill another ethnicity (women and children cannot be enemies) at night, suddenly, after a cease-fire was agreed until next day. The Russian peacekeepers were intentionally killed, their camp was fired by tanks point blank, the wounded were shot in the head. And all this wasn't done by some obscure gang, but by the regular Georgian Army by the order of its Supreme Commander - president Mikhail Saakashvili. The world will see the documentaries, the proofs of genocide very soon, I hope. There were thousands of eyewitnesses.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - SVP - 08-24-2008
chena Wrote:Russia's state-controlled media seemed extremely well-prepared to cover the outbreak of armed conflict in Georgia. "The Georgian leadership made a mistake on [August 7]. They should have understood from what they have seen from the Russians that the Russians were looking for a pretext. They [the Georgians] gave them that pretext when they decided to go in a fairly large way into South Ossetia," Pifer said. "The speed of the Russian response suggests that the Russians were ready, they were just waiting for the reason and they took that as the reason."
Nothing strange. Of course, the Russians were ready for this scenario. Because the Georgian preparations for the attack started weeks (or months?) before August 7. Some prevailing heights were taken around Tshinvali, field fortifications built, troops movements, many signs that something was being prepared by the Georgians.
But I'm sure, the Russians did not expect it on the eve of the Oplympics. The Russian president is on leave, the Russian PM is in China, it still took the army almost a day to arrive in Tshinvali, not so fast as it could. We know that the Georgian assault started at 10.30 pm approx, but the Russian army started moving at around 4 am. So, some time was spent on making decisions.
About journalists - there are always a lot of them in the "hot spots". Because, this is the most interesting news - conflicts. And the salary is good when such trips. This time there was activisation of conflict, and, of course, the journalists knew about Georgian preparations. By the way, not all were state-control media. Many independent, even anti-Kremlin, and anti-Russian newspapers.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - IamGEORGIA - 08-24-2008
SVP Wrote:Simon A Wrote:The fact, that Georgia started military actions of the first is rejected by nobody. The question stands only about too strong military answer of Russia.
I can explain why the military answer was "too strong" (though I think it was not strong enough). Three reasons.
1. If the Russian troops stayed inside South Ossetia and go no further - the fighting would still be there, taking more and more lives every day from each side. Even more Russian and Ossetian lives, because the Georgian positions were on the prevailing heights arount Tshinvali, while Tshinvali itself is like a trap below.
2. Destroying military targets in the mainland Georgia was necessary for the same reason - to destroy the military potential of the aggressor and make him run. Thus, bringing the conflict to an end as quickly as possible ans aave lives. This tactics is always used by NATO and US - in Yugoslavia, Iraq. 24-o-clock bombings of mainland Yugoslavia, including Beograde.
3. This is my personal view, shared by many Russians. The country, headed by such a reckless and mentally unbalanced president must be forbidden to have any military potential and army at all. Like it was with Germany after WWII.
About the term "genocide". Of course, the US would not like to admit there was one, because all that Saakashvili was doing, was done in the name of US and EU, as he said. Nor US, neither EU would never done anything like this, and I know they are shocked by him. Many people have incorrect understanding of the term "genocide". They remember genocide of the Jews, that were millions of people. And since, here there are not millions, it's not genocide. Wrong. Georgia called it a special operation to put law and order back to South Ossetia, fighting the bandits, and their leaders. But they did not fight separate gangsters or groups of gangsters, or leaders. One ethnicity used volley artillery, tanks, aviation to kill another ethnicity (women and children cannot be enemies) at night, suddenly, after a cease-fire was agreed until next day. The Russian peacekeepers were intentionally killed, their camp was fired by tanks point blank, the wounded were shot in the head. And all this wasn't done by some obscure gang, but by the regular Georgian Army by the order of its Supreme Commander - president Mikhail Saakashvili. The world will see the documentaries, the proofs of genocide very soon, I hope. There were thousands of eyewitnesses.
OMG..coool.. :haha tale told my little Putin..
haha are you serious?
Forbidden by whom? by russian? :haha are you afraid?
Occupants will leave, and then we'll see what kind of military potential we have..friend..
uper
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - SVP - 08-24-2008
IamGEORGIA Wrote:OMG..coool.. :haha tale told my little Putin..
haha are you serious?
Forbidden by whom? by russian? :haha are you afraid?
Occupants will leave, and then we'll see what kind of military potential we have..friend..
Forbidden by all sane people.
As always, your reply does not contain anything except your threats and dreams about the time, when the "occupants" will leave and America invest more billions into your marionette president and the military, when (at last!) the US troops will come to Georgia and stay there :-)
If we were occupants, you'd be dead by now, as well as your monkey with a grenade. I'm afraid Georgia can become the start of the World War III.
Well, go on barking out of the basement :-)
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - IamGEORGIA - 08-24-2008
SVP Wrote:IamGEORGIA Wrote:OMG..coool.. :haha tale told my little Putin..
haha are you serious?
Forbidden by whom? by russian? :haha are you afraid?
Occupants will leave, and then we'll see what kind of military potential we have..friend..
Forbidden by all sane people.
As always, your reply does not contain anything except your threats and dreams about the time, when the "occupants" will leave and America invest more billions into your marionette president and the military, when (at last!) the US troops will come to Georgia and stay there :-)
If we were occupants, you'd be dead by now, as well as your monkey with a grenade. I'm afraid Georgia can become the start of the World War III.
Well, go on barking out of the basement :-)
well you seems to be kremlin monkey..
1. Occupants will leave..its not dream..if they wont, they will be simply destroyed..or arressted in better case..
2. Nobody wants US troops to come here..no troops of other caountry should stay on the teritory of another independetn caountry.. (if there is not some special case)
you are occupant..and many peaceful residents are dead..
What else liliPutin told you to shout here? :haha
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - SiD - 08-24-2008
IamGEORGIA Wrote:1. Occupants will leave..its not dream..if they wont, they will be simply destroyed..or arressted in better case..
I like that one. Some people never learn. Treats after fight, your favorite as it seems.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - IamGEORGIA - 08-24-2008
SiD Wrote:IamGEORGIA Wrote:1. Occupants will leave..its not dream..if they wont, they will be simply destroyed..or arressted in better case..
I like that one. Some people never learn. Treats after fight, your favorite as it seems.
Do you? :haha
agree..never..
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - SiD - 08-24-2008
IamGEORGIA Wrote:Do you?
agree..never..
SiD Wrote:IamGEORGIA Wrote:1. Occupants will leave..its not dream..if they wont, they will be simply destroyed..or arressted in better case..
I like that one. Some people never learn. Treats after fight, your favorite as it seems.
Do you? :haha
agree..never..
Parhaps you can translate to me your answer becouse i didnt get it.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - IamGEORGIA - 08-24-2008
SiD Wrote:Parhaps you can translate to me your answer becouse i didnt get it.
dont worry..
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - the globe - 08-25-2008
In Kremlin a decision was made for the war to start in August. The war would have happened regardless of what the Georgians did. Whether they responded to the provocations or not, there would have been an invasion of Georgia. The goal was to destroy Georgia's central government, defeat the Georgian army, and prevent Georgia from joining Nato.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - the globe - 08-25-2008
Present situation in Russian bears a strong resemblance to that in Germany of 30-th years:, aggressive behavior against neighboring states, nationalistic demagogy, fuehrer, aspiration for world supremacy, short-term economic take-off, blitzkrieg and anschluss territory of a neighboring state upon the pretext of protection of alien residents, nation-wide giddiness due to early military successes, a connivance of some European countries, and eventually, a large-scale military adventure…..
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - the globe - 08-25-2008
Russian occupants carried out ethnic cleaning in Abkhazia (in 1993) and South Ossetia (2008) to force Georgian civilians (more then 300 000) to leave their homes. Thousands have been killed.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - SVP - 08-25-2008
the globe Wrote:In Kremlin a decision was made for the war to start in August. The war would have happened regardless of what the Georgians did. Whether they responded to the provocations or not, there would have been an invasion of Georgia. The goal was to destroy Georgia's central government, defeat the Georgian army, and prevent Georgia from joining Nato.
You must be working in the Kremlin - you know everything so well :-) It sounds like you have the documented proofs of what you say. The correct answer is - Russia was ready for the war, because only blind couldn't see what was being prepared by the Georgian side. By the way, Russia warned the West about it several times and asked to influence Saakashvili.
What you say is stupid, sorry. Putin & Medevedev may be evil guys (for you), but they are not idiots. They would have never "invaded" Georgia if Saakashvili (who IS an idiot) would't give them a chance to. He gave the chance. Otherwise, we'd have a World War 3 by now.
Russia's goals were achieved - first, they definitely stopped the bloodshed, you cannot deny it. Though you prefer not to mention the South Ossetia massacre. I admit - there were lots of lies and misinformation from both sides about many things (truth is the first victim in a war), but there are hundreds of proofs of what really took place - this is well documented and you'll see them some day. Second - Russia showed, that you cannot endlessly tease it and in the end attack its peacekeepers and finish the wounded ones with control shots in the head (I'm not talking about the civilian Ossetians - you don't seem to care about them anyway).
Third - some military infrastructures were ruined, but not the pipes (somebody said that was the main goal). Fourth - the whole world saw who's actually Mr. Saakashvili. Fifth - the whole world saw what Georgian Army is in combat conditions (not in a parade).
There could not be such a goal - to overthrow the government and the president. Politically incorrect. If you do this - you win nothing, because the people would still be against you in any way. Plus Saakashvili would become a martyr. But now he's still a criminal (who damaged Georgia first of all), but not a martyr.
Russia cannot stop Georgia from joining NATO, especially through a war conflict. Georgia will become a NATO member much faster now, I think. Because NATO will make an exclusion for Georgia now.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - SVP - 08-25-2008
the globe Wrote:Present situation in Russian bears a strong resemblance to that in Germany of 30-th years:, aggressive behavior against neighboring states, nationalistic demagogy, fuehrer, aspiration for world supremacy, short-term economic take-off, blitzkrieg and anschluss territory of a neighboring state upon the pretext of protection of alien residents, nation-wide giddiness due to early military successes, a connivance of some European countries, and eventually, a large-scale military adventure…..
Wow, so scary :-) Run, run faster to the shelter, Russians are coming! What you're doing is anti-Russian hysteria. You'd better analize the US expansion policy, which is one of the main reasons of what is happening.
Read this: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1047509/OPINION-World-peace-Give-Putin-anyday.html#">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... yday.html#</a><!-- m -->
including comments.
And more:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/19/opinion/edgreenway.php">http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/19/ ... eenway.php</a><!-- m -->
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/25/georgia.russia">http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... gia.russia</a><!-- m -->
Can give you tens of links like this to the western media.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - SVP - 08-25-2008
the globe Wrote:Russian occupants carried out ethnic cleaning in Abkhazia (in 1993) and South Ossetia (2008) to force Georgian civilians (more then 300 000) to leave their homes. Thousands have been killed.
Lies. Fisrt, you should remember, that the Georgian-Abhazian war was started by the Georgians, whose president's slogan was "Georgia for Georgians". Georgia took Abkhazia's autonomy back. The civil war started. The cleansings and fightings were carried out by the Abhazians themselves and the Chechens, with Shamil Basayev as the head. The Russian troops (which stayed there from the USSR times) were also attacked and had to reply.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Simon A - 08-25-2008
Saakashvili is the criminal and the terrorist. His soldiers have killed 2000 peace inhabitants of Tskhinvali in some hours.. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.osradio.info/">http://www.osradio.info/</a><!-- m --> and <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://osinform.ru/index.php?action_ski">http://osinform.ru/index.php?action_ski</a><!-- m --> ... me=full_en
The crimes of georgian's army in S. Ossetia <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=OE1WNJOfnHY">http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=OE1WNJOfnHY</a><!-- m -->
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - chena - 08-25-2008
SVP Wrote:the globe Wrote:Russian occupants carried out ethnic cleaning in Abkhazia (in 1993) and South Ossetia (2008) to force Georgian civilians (more then 300 000) to leave their homes. Thousands have been killed.
Lies. Fisrt, you should remember, that the Georgian-Abhazian war was started by the Georgians, whose president's slogan was "Georgia for Georgians". Georgia took Abkhazia's autonomy back. The civil war started. The cleansings and fightings were carried out by the Abhazians themselves and the Chechens, with Shamil Basayev as the head. The Russian troops (which stayed there from the USSR times) were also attacked and had to reply.
Could you be more careful with what you are saying? 1993 was not long ago to forget things. The war was started by a Georgian "generals" Kitovani and Ioseliani. Ioseliani is dead, Kitovani got a “shelter” in Russia (tell me why?).
The president which said "georgia for georgians" - zviad gamsakhurdia was not president anymore (because most of the country did not like his policies, however there are still his supporters). Also, very interesting thing is that father of Zviad Gamsakhurdia was KGB agent, also Zviad Gamsakhurdia himself was released from the prison (he was arresting as a "disident") after his public "confession" against his friends. Further in 1990s Georgian dissidents (most influential and smart ones, i.e. Kostava, Chavchavadze, Chanturia...) have died or been killed. For some reason Zviad was the only one who "survived". Again tell me why?
Abkhazians even with help of Chechens would not been able to "win" the war without significant "help" from Russia. There are tapes where Russians and Chechens were playing football with a head of killed Georgian.
I totally agree that genocide is unacceptable; I do not think that killing civilians is something honorable either for Georgians or for Russians. But (correct me if I am wrong) it seems that 300 000 IDPs and tens of thousands Georgians killed in Abkhazia and South Ossetia are not impressive enough to call that genocide and to raise your voice against that.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - chena - 08-25-2008
Question:
Is it ok if troops reply to attacks?
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Simon A - 08-25-2008
chena Wrote:SVP Wrote:the globe Wrote:There are tapes where Russians and Chechens were playing football with a head of killed Georgian.
I totally agree that genocide is unacceptable; I do not think that killing civilians is something honorable either for Georgians or for Russians. But (correct me if I am wrong) it seems that 300 000 IDPs and tens of thousands Georgians killed in Abkhazia and South Ossetia are not impressive enough to call that genocide and to raise your voice against that.
You do not confirm the words with the facts, therefore you lie.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Frederic - 08-25-2008
SVP Wrote:Poor peaceful russian soldiers. They are always in the defencive position and are forced to reply. For information: In Abkhazia ethical cleansing of Georgians has been carried. I can provide you with the data of census in Abkhazia of 1989.the globe Wrote:Russian occupants carried out ethnic cleaning in Abkhazia (in 1993) and South Ossetia (2008) to force Georgian civilians (more then 300 000) to leave their homes. Thousands have been killed.
Lies. Fisrt, you should remember, that the Georgian-Abhazian war was started by the Georgians, whose president's slogan was "Georgia for Georgians". Georgia took Abkhazia's autonomy back. The civil war started. The cleansings and fightings were carried out by the Abhazians themselves and the Chechens, with Shamil Basayev as the head. The Russian troops (which stayed there from the USSR times) were also attacked and had to reply.
Georgians 45.7%
Abkhaz 17.8%
Can you tell me how could 17,8% of population force 45.7% to flee away from their homes, without external help? As regards slogan "Georgia for Georgians", you are deeply mistaken about this. Georgian sociaty has been always tolerant for every ethnic group living in Georgia. Georgia is a country where for example jews have been living for 26 centuries, and where has never occured any conflict between Georgians and jews. Georgia is a country, where in the historic centre of its capital you can find mosque, sinagogue and orthodox church in a walk distance from each other. The main TV chanell is broadcasting news in Ossetian, Armenian, Azerbaijan, Russian and Abkhaz languages. There exist schools for national minorities, some privilegies are envisaged for national minorities during the entrance exams. So don`t speculate with xenophobia. It has never existed in Georgia. And Abkhaz and Ossetian people will one day acknowlege that their national identity can be fully preserved only in Georgian State, in contrary to Russia, where skinheads are permanently chasing after the people of "Caucasian Nationality." It does not matter for them if you are Georgian, Ossetian or Abkhaz. You are all inferior to them. The State who has provoked Beslan and commited genocide of Chechen people, will never prove that it is the guarantor of stability in Caucasus.