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Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - russian999 - 08-25-2008
Quote:russian999 wrote:My frend, I am not telling you, that Russia is right. Russia is wrong, and I admitt this fact. We should not go inside of Georgia and bomb civilians.But, you have to understand, that even with bad neigbors you have to COOPERATE, but not fight. I think you now that russian saying : " Bad peace better, than good fight".
And for those who do not really understand the nature of problems, stop to make history look like you want it to be... This is the problem of Russia, they think they know everything, they know who is "agent"...Come on, stop telling this rubbish...
My frend, I am russian and I know too well how difficult to shed totalitarism from inside yourself. Look at yor posts - you are still communist inside, even you trying to pretend to be democratic. If you looking for enemy around you - you will find it. You have to learn, that in every conflict both sides are wrong. And , if you want to be real democratic person - you have to admitt, that you are wrong too.
Come on... It is not about democracy at all, this is your problem, your understanding of democracy...Democracy is the system of ruling, what matters is whether a person is Liberal or Not... I do not pretend that I am liberal, I am still trying to understand this philosophy and I am reading a lot for this. Just what I am telling is possibly the truth and I beleive what I say, that's why I am telling. I am not a pro-saakashvili georgian, but in this case there is no matter about saakashvili. He is not a problem, JUst Georgians do not want to live with such Russia, we do not want to live under russian rules, you have to understand it. Also about two conflicts, if you get deep in these problems you ll find that russian backed separatists started the war, they forced high officials in bkhazia of georgian nationality to leave their rooms, they forced them to leave the places where they lived, what do you think wha normal government should do when separatists force people to live their working and living places?...
Also. come on Russian TV programms do not know how many people were killed, they started from 2000, now it is 1300-1400...This is what you call democracy. I pray to see democratic Russia full with LIBERALS.
So, you have to learn to live in real world. In real world sometimes you will have really bad neigbors.And sometimes this bad guys will be much stronger, than you are. So, if you gonna fight with all bad guys - you will be defeated eventually.
Why dont you complay sometimes with Russia? Russia is nasty, but it is you neigbor.
Quote:Also one question to Russia999, Please tell me any book you have read about democracy or Liberalizm? Or this knowledge you got from Russian TV and from Russian Public figures??? I am too young to be called communist, I was born in decedents family, it would have been more realistric to call me nationalist. Sorry friend you are mistaken, but you can live with your mistakes, I do understand you!I was living in USA for 8 years. I know, what democracy is about. Sorry, but Georgia far away from it.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - SiD - 08-25-2008
lashachochua Wrote:Also I will comment about Icar...Russia999 it was not pride, it was a great desire to know more, desire telling that everything is possible, he managed to fly, he did what he wanted to do...it does not matter that he died... If you know Gilgamesh, Amiran and Promete they are heros, nevertheless all of them were destroyed for their truth....Rational criticizm this is what making progress, not beleiving to conventional wisdom and trying searching new!!!
It was pride. He managed to fly and tought everything is possible for him. He wasnt killed or punished by someone not by man not by gods. His pride doomed him. he made no progress nor has he given something to mankind, just knowledge that sun is HOT, if you can call it progress.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - lashachochua - 08-25-2008
I do agree with you that Georgia is far away from Democracy...But this is not case, the vital thing is that the nation declared they want to build Democracy. If you know the book "Democracy in America" the french author of this book after French Revolution was praying for American Democracy and telling that democracy in France is underdeveloped... What you tell to cooperate with russian givernment, to say no to western values, to say no to be the part of european union, to say no to NATO?... I do not want government which will cooperate in such issues with russian Givernment. The nation of Dostroevsky this what I want to see, this is for what I do really pray. Democratic and liberal Russia will be foudation for better world, but this is far from reality...Why you russian people do not tell anything about the terror Russian givernment is running...No freedom of speech, no Free TVs...No one can defeat this Imperializm in Russia, Only russian people can say no to this terror...
About 80% of respondents in one of latest pooling replied the Georgians are 50 million and that Georgia is Number 2 enemy of Russia...This is russian reality, beleive me there is no such tendancy in Georgia, what we think is that Russian government is our enemy, but russian people our firends, I have a lot of Russian friends, and I can give my life for them, but Rssian Government is really our enemy...
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - lashachochua - 08-25-2008
SiD Wrote:lashachochua Wrote:Also I will comment about Icar...Russia999 it was not pride, it was a great desire to know more, desire telling that everything is possible, he managed to fly, he did what he wanted to do...it does not matter that he died... If you know Gilgamesh, Amiran and Promete they are heros, nevertheless all of them were destroyed for their truth....Rational criticizm this is what making progress, not beleiving to conventional wisdom and trying searching new!!!
It was pride. He managed to fly and tought everything is possible for him. He wasnt killed or punished by someone not by man not by gods. His pride doomed him. he made no progress nor has he given something to mankind, just knowledge that sun is HOT, if you can call it progress.
The fact that what you call pride I call the desire to know more is normal. Scientifically it is proved that even the same words have different interpretations among different nations, the words like independence, freedom, democracy and so on... So it will not destroy the world that what you call pride i call the desire to know more :-)
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - russian999 - 08-25-2008
Quote:Also I will comment about Icar...Russia999 it was not pride, it was a great desire to know more, desire telling that everything is possible, he managed to fly, he did what he wanted to do...it does not matter that he died... If you know Gilgamesh, Amiran and Promete they are heros, nevertheless all of them were destroyed for their truth....Rational criticizm this is what making progress, not beleiving to conventional wisdom and trying searching new!!!You know, its sounds litlle bit idealistic. I am confident, that if you personally even once will have chance to be engage in armed conflict, you will change you point of view. In international affairs conventional wisdom is key for keeping peace. But Georgia decided to be Icar of all western world. And look whats happen? Russia is nasty. You cannot beat Russia.So, conventional wisdom is telling you - do not put oil in fire. Russia is not good, but nobody beats her up.That is reality. Why you provoked Russia? We, Russians, do not like chinese people. But, we dont provoked them, because they are powerfull.
Quote:I do agree with you that Georgia is far away from Democracy...But this is not case, the vital thing is that the nation declared they want to build Democracy. If you know the book "Democracy in America" the french author of this book after French Revolution was praying for American Democracy and telling that democracy in France is underdeveloped... What you tell to cooperate with russian givernment, to say no to western values, to say no to be the part of european union, to say no to NATO?... I do not want government which will cooperate in such issues with russian Givernment. The nation of Dostroevsky this what I want to see, this is for what I do really pray. Democratic and liberal Russia will be foudation for better world, but this is far from reality...Why you russian people do not tell anything about the terror Russian givernment is running...No freedom of speech, no Free TVs...No one can defeat this Imperializm in Russia, Only russian people can say no to this terror...My frend, I just want for georgians to be REALISTIC people. I, personally, hate russian government. But, as REALISTIC person I understand, that without such totalitarian government Russia will explode.Because russians people do not responsible yet. So, be realistic. Russia is your neigbor.She is strong. Do not provoke them
About 80% of respondents in one of latest pooling replied the Georgians are 50 million and that Georgia is Number 2 enemy of Russia...This is russian reality, beleive me there is no such tendancy in Georgia, what we think is that Russian government is our enemy, but russian people our firends, I have a lot of Russian friends, and I can give my life for them, but Rssian Government is really our enemy...
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Eka - 08-25-2008
SiD Wrote:SidEka Wrote:I am watching sometimes for this form and this was the the thing that makes me smile.
Who is Icar?
He was very positiv figure in greek mithology as I remeber, or you was taught mithology in school from diffrent point of view?
He was positive figure, why not? Well he just tried to fly to the sun and ended up falling down. Lesson of how can pride destroy someone.
Georgia is Icar and sun is Russia?
I understand you correctly?
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - lashachochua - 08-25-2008
russian999 Wrote:Quote:russian999 wrote:My frend, I am not telling you, that Russia is right. Russia is wrong, and I admitt this fact. We should not go inside of Georgia and bomb civilians.But, you have to understand, that even with bad neigbors you have to COOPERATE, but not fight. I think you now that russian saying : " Bad peace better, than good fight".
And for those who do not really understand the nature of problems, stop to make history look like you want it to be... This is the problem of Russia, they think they know everything, they know who is "agent"...Come on, stop telling this rubbish...
My frend, I am russian and I know too well how difficult to shed totalitarism from inside yourself. Look at yor posts - you are still communist inside, even you trying to pretend to be democratic. If you looking for enemy around you - you will find it. You have to learn, that in every conflict both sides are wrong. And , if you want to be real democratic person - you have to admitt, that you are wrong too.
Come on... It is not about democracy at all, this is your problem, your understanding of democracy...Democracy is the system of ruling, what matters is whether a person is Liberal or Not... I do not pretend that I am liberal, I am still trying to understand this philosophy and I am reading a lot for this. Just what I am telling is possibly the truth and I beleive what I say, that's why I am telling. I am not a pro-saakashvili georgian, but in this case there is no matter about saakashvili. He is not a problem, JUst Georgians do not want to live with such Russia, we do not want to live under russian rules, you have to understand it. Also about two conflicts, if you get deep in these problems you ll find that russian backed separatists started the war, they forced high officials in bkhazia of georgian nationality to leave their rooms, they forced them to leave the places where they lived, what do you think wha normal government should do when separatists force people to live their working and living places?...
Also. come on Russian TV programms do not know how many people were killed, they started from 2000, now it is 1300-1400...This is what you call democracy. I pray to see democratic Russia full with LIBERALS.
So, you have to learn to live in real world. In real world sometimes you will have really bad neigbors.And sometimes this bad guys will be much stronger, than you are. So, if you gonna fight with all bad guys - you will be defeated eventually.
Why dont you complay sometimes with Russia? Russia is nasty, but it is you neigbor.
Quote:Also one question to Russia999, Please tell me any book you have read about democracy or Liberalizm? Or this knowledge you got from Russian TV and from Russian Public figures??? I am too young to be called communist, I was born in decedents family, it would have been more realistric to call me nationalist. Sorry friend you are mistaken, but you can live with your mistakes, I do understand you!I was living in USA for 8 years. I know, what democracy is about. Sorry, but Georgia far away from it.
One more think you say " We should not go inside of Georgia and bomb civilians". I am really sorry to say this but I think this is your problem, you asssociate yourself with Russian government. It is really pitty. And also one more thing about Georgian Tolerence, if you know the history of Georgia, than you should know that The history of Georgia is History of different people muslims. armenians, and many others living in one country...I am sorry once more but I would like to remind you about Chechnya, you, Russian government, destroyed this little nation...So tolerence is something that is not logical to teach Georgians!
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - russian999 - 08-25-2008
Quote:One more think you say " We should not go inside of Georgia and bomb civilians". I am really sorry to say this but I think this is your problem, you asssociate yourself with Russian government. It is really pitty. And also one more thing about Georgian Tolerence, if you know the history of Georgia, than you should know that The history of Georgia is History of different people muslims. armenians, and many others living in one country...I am sorry once more but I would like to remind you about Chechnya, you, Russian government, destroyed this little nation...So tolerence is something that is not logical to teach Georgians!One more time I want to tell you this UNIVERSAL truth - people are nasty by there nature. If you are religios person - you have to read Bible and realize, that all people are SINFULL. Thats Jesus said. So, in order to live in that real world, you must consider this fact, that Russia, same as Georgia full of sinful people. And, if one sinfull person accuse anather sinfull person without recogonizing his own sinfulness - there only one final - they will fight.So, Georgia have to recogonize that fact, that she went too far with ossetia. After this Russia will be more adecvate on Georgia
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - lashachochua - 08-25-2008
May be now I will look a bit idiotic. But believe me and this is not only my view. What you call realizm...I am ready to die but not accept this realizm.The conventional wisdom of international affairs was left in XX century. XXI century is the period when all Governments will have to realize that srength is not in oil, in arms...the strength is in truth... and we saw it. Russia was ready to change regime in Georgia, did she manage??? Provocation was not coming from Georgia. What you suggest we had to wait when Ossetian separatist cease fire and stop bombing (light but still) georgian villages??? Russian Minister Ivanov, said The situation is getting out of our control there are a lot volunters and we can not stop them. What do you think russians could not manage to stop ossetians to cease fire? Do you beleive in this? I do not... The provocation was coming from russian government. They could not manage to change the regime of Saakashvili by strategic planning and thinking, so they decided to invade Georgia. What russian troops are doing in Senaki, in POti they are still there very far from Ossetian Borders. But I am afraid they are left here for future provocations. Yesterday russial troops beated 21 years old Georgian! is it what might be called normal. No I do not want to live with such russia...You made your choice you decided to live in such Russia. But Please do not ask me to be realistic and live with russian regime. I prefer to die!!!
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - lashachochua - 08-25-2008
By the way if you have skype we can talk there, my scape name is - lasha.chochua
I am there now and join if you like
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - russian999 - 08-25-2008
Quote:I prefer to die!!!So, it is your choice. But remember, that if you die - nothing in this world will change. When I returned to Russia from America - I want to fight with Russian government too. Until the death. But, I am gettihg wiser. Now I am working in few social organization and bringing much more help to Russia, than if I be dead.
Quote:By the way if you have skype we can talk there, my scape name is - lasha.chochuaThank you for invitation, but I have to sleep now. It is 3 AM now. I hope, that russians and georgians some day will forgive each others, like it was before/
I am there now and join if you like
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Eka - 08-25-2008
russian999 Wrote:Never Georgians will forgive Russians dear idealist rusian 999.Quote:I prefer to die!!!So, it is your choice. But remember, that if you die - nothing in this world will change. When I returned to Russia from America - I want to fight with Russian government too. Until the death. But, I am gettihg wiser. Now I am working in few social organization and bringing much more help to Russia, than if I be dead.
Quote:By the way if you have skype we can talk there, my scape name is - lasha.chochuaThank you for invitation, but I have to sleep now. It is 3 AM now. I hope, that russians and georgians some day will forgive each others, like it was before/
I am there now and join if you like
It was better for such person to stay in US than to go back to Russia.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - lashachochua - 08-25-2008
I am really sorry for you, One American president said: Those who will say no to his/her freedom for the sake of stability or sustainability, does not deserve none of them...I prefer to be free, free as a bird even flying high enough to be burned but burn in freedom. Bye
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - lashachochua - 08-25-2008
Eka are you Georgia? qartveli xar?
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - russian999 - 08-25-2008
Quote:Never Georgians will forgive Russians dear idealist rusian 999.Dear EKa! In order for me to became realistic person, I went trough military service, prison and few diffrent countrys.But for georgians to become more realistic probably Russians small invasion not enough. They will suffer betraiding by West, revenge by ossetians, coldness by Russia, economic consequences. That will be enough.
It was better for such person to stay in US than to go back to Russia.
I dont want to stay longer in USA because I love Russia. Even she is looking ugly
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - SVP - 08-25-2008
lashachochua Wrote:I do agree with you that Georgia is far away from Democracy...But this is not case, the vital thing is that the nation declared they want to build Democracy. If you know the book "Democracy in America" the french author of this book after French Revolution was praying for American Democracy and telling that democracy in France is underdeveloped... What you tell to cooperate with russian givernment, to say no to western values, to say no to be the part of european union, to say no to NATO?... I do not want government which will cooperate in such issues with russian Givernment. The nation of Dostroevsky this what I want to see, this is for what I do really pray. Democratic and liberal Russia will be foudation for better world, but this is far from reality...Why you russian people do not tell anything about the terror Russian givernment is running...No freedom of speech, no Free TVs...No one can defeat this Imperializm in Russia, Only russian people can say no to this terror...
About 80% of respondents in one of latest pooling replied the Georgians are 50 million and that Georgia is Number 2 enemy of Russia...This is russian reality, beleive me there is no such tendancy in Georgia, what we think is that Russian government is our enemy, but russian people our firends, I have a lot of Russian friends, and I can give my life for them, but Rssian Government is really our enemy...
Really, you seem to be young - you're very romantic :-) And misinformed about Russia at least. I tell you - Russia is full of problems - corruption, crime, drugs, etc. But there's only one way to fight this: death penalty. But this is not possible - because Europe is against it, with its democratic values. But Europe is different not only from Russia, but from all post-Soviet countries. I travelled through all Europe and beyond, have friends in Germany, France, Italy, UK, etc. So, I know what I'm talking about - some present European laws are not applicable to modern Russia. There must be some "transition" period, to clean the country of the shit. This isn't much liberal, right? Also, I would check and deport all the criminals to their countries - it's no secret, that thousands of Georgian criminals found their paradise here. This you would also call antidemocratic :-)
Why I said that you're misinformed - because you're repeating the words of some western (and your) propaganda. First, nobody denies Western values here. We love Western values :-) Then, you 're talking about lack of democracy and freedoms in Russia. I assure you - there are hundreds of not even "neutral" media (newspapers & internet sites), but openly anti-Kremlin and anti-Government media. As to TV, there are no purely pro- and anti-government channels, but you can often see talk-shows and political shows and interviews where all point of view are discussed and the participants openly critisize, accuse and blame Russian president and PM. For example - Solovievs "K Baryeru", Pozners programs, etc. Just trust me :-) Or ask your friends. That's about freedom of speech. As to democracy? It's the power of the people, right? All people cannot manage a country, that is why they elect one president. The Russians elected Medvedev. Were the poll results falcified? Every polling station had observers from all the candidates and international observers. The votes were jointly counted and reported up. On the top they summarized the results and here it is - the choice of the Russians - Mr Medvedev. I trust the poll results, because I see these supporters in real life - the number of supporters correspond to poll results. So, I believe, that with democracy we don't have any problems either. You can freely go to any country - no limitations. There are no limitations in business (you can do whatever you like within the law), there are no problems with bank credits - so you can really start your own business. So, on the state level (the Constitution, other laws, etc) there are no obstacles in personal and business development. The real obstacle is what happens after you start the business - corruption and crime. This is the main problem. But what does it have to do with democracy and freedoms? Please note, I admit there are problems here, and a lot of them.
When you look at this picture, the first idea that comes to your head is that the russian gangs just want to rule the world again, they are envious beggars, that just cannot accept that other decent post-soviet countries choose a way of democracy and liberty, and EU, and NATO, etc. That could be true in Yeltsin's Russia, because he was stupid, hot and unpredictable as Saakashvili. But Putin and Medvedev are not stupid - call them vampires, if you want, but not idiots. They (and we, the Russians) do not want any additional territories, because these territories cost us money, first of all. All the Caucasus republics are heavily donated. So, let's forget about imperial behaviour. There are three simple things (in random order):
1. Medvedev (and earlier Putin) received the country as it is - they did not start the conflicts between Georgia and Abhkazia, Georgia & South Ossetia. They have peacekeeping force there and a frozen conflict . And the population itself (not leaders even) of the breakaway republics ask for protection from Russia. So, what did you want Medvedev to do - just to take away the pecakeepers and let Saakashvili finish what he was going to do? Who would respect such a country? This problem was to be solved peacefully. Now, you'ss say - yes, Georgia attacked because the Ossetians fired etc. But who can prove that - who started first? Saakashvili told you? That's all? We can never know the truth. Tales about provoking do not count, because we must justify Hitler too - he also was provoked. If you have disturbance on the border, you have provocations - go to NATO, UN, anywhere. Make statements, present proofs. But not war - because you cannon win love and loyalty by murdering people, no chance. Bacause, frankly speaking, this war was also profitable for Saakashvili - now he says, look at this aggressor-Russia, look at what they are doing. And the result is - even more money to Georgia and more support. I soon expect american troops quartered in Georgia, for protection from the Evil Empire. This Saakashvili's provocation is also profitable for the US - now they know for sure, how far Russia can go, it was a test-drive of Russia's abilities at the expense of Georgian people.
2. Saying that Russia wants to stop Georgia from joining EU is ridiculous. It makes absolutely no diffrence - EU or non-EU Georgia. We don't have problems with EU. But about NATO - you are right. We do not want more NATO members at our borders. Because Russia is being surrounded by them, which contradics very strongly to what was said by the West when the Warsaw Pact was liquidated. You may not remember, but there was a sort of euphoria in the beginning of the 1990's - when the Warsaw Pact ceased to exist, when missiles were taken away. So, we thought - at last, no confrontation. The West assured Russia, that NATO will not expand at least. Logically, what should have been done best - to dismiss NATO (since it was created as anti-USSR, anti-Russian military union) and create a new, EUROPEAN security system, INCLUDING RUSSIA, with the headquarters in Russia - so that all the western and eastern partners would be in the centre of the new system. Instead, NATO expanded - came close to Russia's borders and now surrounding it. And, by the way, Europe does not need this - it's America who's lobbying Georgia and Ukraine on NATO meetings. France and Germany say - let's wait. It's America directly, who's talking with Poland and the Chech Republic about anti-missile force in Europe (Poland even denied any NATO mediaion the process). You may say: but it's defence! And my answer will be: that's what you are told! Yes, it's the defensive part of a whole system, which includes also an offensive part. Do you really think that America is so peaceful and there are no eagles at power? Come on. All the military experts know very good, what this anti-missile system is for. And remember - Russia offered US - let's make a joint anti-missile defence in Europe, even on the Russian territory, or in Gabalinskaya. This offer was rejected by the US. Why? Ask yourself? By the way, America wins again from this Georgian affair - the anti-missile agreement was signed immediately (see, Russia is coming!!!), and I think, the process of joining NATO by Georgia and Ukraine will speed up now (see, what they have done to Georgia? faster, faster!). So, Georgia - you're in the centre of the US interests, like Iraq. It's a big game, unfortunately.
3. Geo-politics and economy. The US wants to be in Georgia and nearby. The first reason - to weaken Russia (which is natural). The second - to be near Iran to have direct influence on it. Ther are also economica reasons.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - lashachochua - 08-25-2008
Ok, you are right, I am may be too young but not so much to beleive your rhitorics. What I have read is everything about nothing. And I ll try to show that your arguments can be falsified.
Argument 1. You say that there is freedom of speech. May be you was told by your government that Human rights watch is western organization and you should not trust it. But here it is what we read on their site:
"Shutting down critical and unfriendly speech is happening with increased frequency in Russia today. For the last few years the authorities have tried to close down Ingushetiya.ru, a website affiliated with the political opposition in the small North Caucasus republic of Ingushetia. In November 2007, visitors to the site, which was attempting to provide news of a planned protest against human rights abuses, were forwarded to a porn website. This innovative strategy backfired however, and provoked a wave of indignation directed at the government. The authorities then chose to take the “rule of law” approach. The prosecutor’s office alleged that some materials published on Ingushetiya.ru, particularly an interview with an opposition leader sharply critical of the president, included extremist content. On this basis, in June 2008, a Moscow court ruled to have the website closed down for disseminating extremist materials. Ingushetiya.ru is currently appealing this ruling and meanwhile continues to operate. "
"Even art is not immune from spurious claims of extremism. Yuri Samodurov, director of the Andrei Sakharov Museum in Moscow is being charged with inciting religious hatred for hosting the provocative exhibit “Forbidden Art-2006,” a compilation of art banned from museums and galleries in Moscow in 2006. Visitors to the exhibition had to make a special effort to view it: each piece could be viewed only through a peephole in a curtain with the work’s title hung in front if it. "
This is just two examples, but I think enough to show tendency. I am not telling about many journalists that were killed in different circumstances. About many chechen civilian who were killed by Putin Politics. It is your right and to my mind your problem to call all this freedom and democracy. Democracy is not only the rule of majorit, democracy by itself is based on liberal values, this where you have problems.
Argument 2
It is ridicoulos to say that Russia does not want to let Georgia in European Union... Come on, are you so blind that you do not see connection between european union and NATO. The member of European Union in the case of any problem even if it is not the member of Nato automatically is getting under the shelter of NATO. you are right Putin and The current president is not stupid enough to start war against NATO
Argument 3
It is diffult to prove who started the war....... I just ask you to search the comments of Foreign Affairs Minister Ivanov, he was making before the Georgia started bombing. He was telling that in south ossetia there are a lot of volunters and gangs and the proccess is getting out of Russian control (he meant ossetian side and he declared they can not control ossetians, what russian peacekeeper were doing when the ossetians were bombing Georgian villages...resting...no, helping them...this is pure reality). The ossetian side was bombing georgian villigas for two days nonstoping. (maybe you are so old that you could not notice about it on your TV "liberal" programs and newspapers did not tell you about this) The russian propaganda is on face. I am watching Russian TVs and What I see there is terrible. Ok let say russia wanted to induce the peace in the region. Than tell what Russian troops are doing in the territory of Georgia still? You say that you are strong, I will say not at all... Russian soldiers were stealing everything what they could from everywhere, the army of strong nation does not do such things. You have illusion that you are strong, You still have strength to invade the small countries, but not enough to go against the whole world...
Argument 4
You say you have good relations to Europeans... If it is so congratulations...But there is no only Americans who is talking about Russian aggrassion, Even Germans and French officials, who have been always loyal to Russia are talking about it. How it is possible that the whole world but Russia, syria, Belarus and Cuba see the things as white and you see it as black....You say that population of conflict regions asked russia for shelter, what about those people (georgians) who lived there for ages before they were forced to leave their houses...Did russians asked them what they want....
Finally, I am not listening only Georgian sources of Information, everywhere in CNN, Aljaazira, BBC, Turkish channels, Ukrainian Chennels I was told that Russia is aggressor....Whom I have to believe?....You will say to you....But sorry....You are not the person whom I can beleive........The problem is that what is happening in Russia you call corruption and so on.......Come on, Open you eyes wide....I have never told that there is no any russian who can criticize the government.... That there is no critical articles in newspapers....But the critical amount of People live like slaves, even one russian here told that after getting back to russia from USA. he wanted to struggle against this tyranny till the death but than he became wisor and closed his eyes...
You lost your importance in the world, you will nevr became the NEW Soviet Union....You will never manage this.....And one more citation from human rights watch web page....you should not believe it, you government is telling the only truth in the world, by the way you do not need even the God, Putin and Medvedev know more about the life....
"“An election is more than what happens on election day,” goes the expression - and it seems particularly apposite to Russia in the lead up to the presidential elections on 2 March. In the past eight years the government of president Vladimir Putin has weakened, almost beyond recognition, most of the essential elements that underpin a healthy democracy.
All Russia's major democratic institutions remain in place, but they have been largely emptied of real capacity to serve as a check on the Kremlin's power. The news media have been neutered: independent TV and radio have been all but destroyed and the independent press severely curtailed. The parliamentary opposition in the Duma has been marginalized. Direct election of regional governors has been abolished. The independence of the judiciary has, through various means, been seriously compromised.
All this has been prominently reported in the international media. Less well known is the extent to which the Kremlin has deliberately gone about stifling another essential pillar of a vibrant and successful democracy: independent nongovernmental organisations.
In a report published this week, Human Rights Watch documents how Putin’s government has in recent years sharply turned the screw on Russia’s vibrant civil society that emerged from the glasnost era. The report, Choking on Bureaucracy, tells the depressing but familiar story of an authoritarian government using a combination of red tape and arbitrary intimidation to curtail the efforts of grassroots social activists to build a better society. "
I am young, but not only young but loving freedom, call me Romantic...who cares, I am sure I will live in freedom and democracy, and you clever enough Putin and Medvedev, could not manage to make me think like you...Thanks The God for that!....
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Platon - 08-25-2008
Who started the war? Of course the Georgians. Russians never do it. They never invaded the other countries.
How you don't :banghead understand the russian spiritual mission in the world, they are piece makers, every where, every time: in Poland, in Finland, In Prague, in Hungary. And the best achievement of piece was in Chechnia. georgians are fascists, they drink blood of ossetian children like jews of christian, russian children in Odessa.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - lashachochua - 08-25-2008
One more thing, who made you right to decide for us that you do not want NATO members on your border. This decesion should be made by Georgians not buy you.........Thanks god and I hope we were saved from this terrible russian aggression... And I hope that the whole world sow the real face of Russia and rubbish behavoiur of Russian troops.........I was told that Russia is bed, but here it is what Great Rssuans think about Russians:
"Народ который блуждает по Европе и ищет что можно разрушить, уничтожить только ради развлечения." Достоевский
" Не народ ,а скотина, хам, дикая орда, душегубов и злодеев." Булгаков
"Наиважнейшею приметою удачи русского народа есть его садистская жестокость". Горький
"Русский есть наибольший и наинаглейший лгун во всем свете". Тургенев
"Народ, что ненавидит волю, обожает рабство, любит цепи на своих руках и ногах, грязный физически и морально...готовый в любой момент угнетать все и вся". Шмелев
"Народ равнодушный до наименьшей обязанности, до наименьшей справедливости, до наименьшей правды, народ, что не признает человеческое достоинство, что целиком не признает ни свободного человека ,ни свободной мысли". А.С. ПУШКИН.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - lashachochua - 08-25-2008
Platon Wrote:Who started the war? Of course the Georgians. Russians never do it. They never invaded the other countries.
How you don't :banghead understand the russian spiritual mission in the world, they are piece makers, every where, every time: in Poland, in Finland, In Prague, in Hungary. And the best achievement of piece was in Chechnia. georgians are fascists, they drink blood of ossetian children like jews of christian, russian children in Odessa.
I am really for you if you do really think like it! God help you!
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Platon - 08-25-2008
Who really cares now who started the war. Right people already know what the hell is going on hear. Georgians lured the russians. Well done. Now who is in the sh....t? Amies came - russians went out.
SVP could you explain me PLS, what western propaganda is like?
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - lashachochua - 08-25-2008
Platon Wrote:Who really cares now who started the war. Right people already know what the hell is going on hear. Georgians lured the russians. Well done. Now who is in the sh....t? Amies came - russians went out.
SVP could you explain me PLS, what western propaganda is like?
Planot, it is always important to know who started what, if you really want to know what happend. In details is Evil...
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - SiD - 08-25-2008
Wow. It seems that georgians are all romantics, from the big road as it seems. :lol: .
Do you realy think that you are all alone in geopolitics?
SVP has explained everything to you in the way everyone can understand.
You call yourself free? than remember freedom is either responsobility for your actions.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - SVP - 08-26-2008
lashachochua Wrote:One more thing, who made you right to decide for us that you do not want NATO members on your border. This decesion should be made by Georgians not buy you.........Thanks god and I hope we were saved from this terrible russian aggression... And I hope that the whole world sow the real face of Russia and rubbish behavoiur of Russian troops.........I was told that Russia is bed, but here it is what Great Rssuans think about Russians:
"Народ который блуждает по Европе и ищет что можно разрушить, уничтожить только ради развлечения." Достоевский
" Не народ ,а скотина, хам, дикая орда, душегубов и злодеев." Булгаков
"Наиважнейшею приметою удачи русского народа есть его садистская жестокость". Горький
"Русский есть наибольший и наинаглейший лгун во всем свете". Тургенев
"Народ, что ненавидит волю, обожает рабство, любит цепи на своих руках и ногах, грязный физически и морально...готовый в любой момент угнетать все и вся". Шмелев
"Народ равнодушный до наименьшей обязанности, до наименьшей справедливости, до наименьшей правды, народ, что не признает человеческое достоинство, что целиком не признает ни свободного человека ,ни свободной мысли". А.С. ПУШКИН.
Nice selection of sentences :-) This proves what sources you read (or you made the selection by yourself)?. Well, I tried to explain you the difference between an Economic-Political Union (EU) - which we have nothing against, and military union (NATO). I clearly showed you that the "correct" security" in Europe is the one with Russia included, not confronting it. Instead, your "security" is based on an outdated and huge NATO, whach was founded as anti-Russian organization. The facts are that NATO surrounds Russia in the interests of the US global influence, not the European security - I gave you the facts about direct talks of Poland and US (and they were against NATO to mediare), Chech and US, and you know yourself - Georgia and US. Why do you think they invest billions of dollars in Georgia? :-) You also did not notice that I said Russia wanted (and wants) real security in Europe, not confrontation, and what we offered to America about AMS. We cannot stop any country from joining NATO. But we'll have to take steps to provide our security. Shortly, you personally not a discussion partner. Because when somebody rejects ALL the opponent's views and info, not accepting a single one, omitting in his replies answers to statements that prove he's not right, and just saying that what he knows and says is the only truth - it is called biased person. And, finally, don't be mistaken about Russian army. If looting is true, I'm ashamed of it, and I want death sentence for it. But these are just mercenaries, like yours. But your well equipped mercenaries, in beaityful uniform and good equipment were running away from our beggars very fast and started playing hide-and-seek :-) Even you president could not find them in the end - by the way, I saw it on CNN (because I also read and view CNN, tens of western newspapers, and watch BBC). Your army are just cowards, but you'll never admit it. YOu say - huge Russia, small Georgia. But come on, we didn't send you the whole army, the Russian troops were less in number than the Georgians. Don't pretent to be Chechens, the fighters of the Caucasus :-) You are just Georgians :-) Write poems and make wine, not war :-) Your only hope was that NATO and US will bomb Russia in a few hours :-) They didn't. You know why? Because they are smarter than you and know, that Russia is still strong. Well, see no sense in further correspondence - it's useless.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Eka - 08-26-2008
Platon Wrote:Who started the war? Of course the Georgians. Russians never do it. They never invaded the other countries.Who tel you this things, are you really normall.Its great that here you are representing reall Russian soul - you hate everyone - Jews, Georgians and even Osetinas -they will soon understand who you are in reallity.
How you don't :banghead understand the russian spiritual mission in the world, they are piece makers, every where, every time: in Poland, in Finland, In Prague, in Hungary. And the best achievement of piece was in Chechnia. georgians are fascists, they drink blood of ossetian children like jews of christian, russian children in Odessa.
Russians were the same for Jew as Nazis were during WW2.So its indicator - attitude toward Jews, indicator how dengerous are your ideas, and indicator that Russia must not be dominante in world politics.