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+--- Thread: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? (/thread-1734.html)
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Platon - 08-26-2008
This is the war against Georgian imperialism.
Russia wants to became independent from Georgia and
west does not support them.
God bless America
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Platon - 08-26-2008
This is the war against Georgian imperialism.
Russia wants to became independent from Georgia and
west does not support them.
God bless America
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Hakan G - 08-26-2008
LOL Georgian imperialism..
That’s the most realistic statement I have ever heard since the conflict started.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - SiD - 08-26-2008
lashachochua Wrote:SiD Wrote:lashachochua Wrote:It is better for you to read Dostoevsky!....look i think you misunderstud this site for literature club.
For you everyone who tries to explain something to you just speaks everything about nothing. But you told realy nothing. "All evill comes from Russia" it is your most briliant argument. Have no time for proper discussion? do not bother than.
SiD I have impression that you can only write in egnlish and can not read in english....See pages 30-35 you will see a lot of arguments I am providing, by the way I tried to falsify the arguments of your friend, you can read that reply and if ou can provide any arguments against me......Yes sometimes it is better to read a good book.........Esp. For you in order to study how to read actually...........
Well if you check out you will see many of my answers. I remember everything. Including your romantic viev of icars story.
Quote:by the way I tried to falsify the arguments of your friendyou tried? it is funny how you could not see difference between NATO and EU, cant tell who started the war of course becouse anyone knows who did it you just complained about our soldiers in Georgia, given 2 "examples of oppression in Russia", and of course a lot of "true" about terrible russian regime. Anyway all your comments could be discribed as "georgian people trying to establish democracy and freedom are oppresed by bad russians who want return USSR, NKWD, and only western media can tell you what else". So parhaps you will read what was responded to you?
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - lashachochua - 08-26-2008
SiD I have impression that you can only write in egnlish and can not read in english....See pages 30-35 you will see a lot of arguments I am providing, by the way I tried to falsify the arguments of your friend, you can read that reply and if ou can provide any arguments against me......Yes sometimes it is better to read a good book.........Esp. For you in order to study how to read actually...........[/quote]
Well if you check out you will see many of my answers. I remember everything. Including your romantic viev of icars story.
Quote:by the way I tried to falsify the arguments of your friendyou tried? it is funny how you could not see difference between NATO and EU, cant tell who started the war of course becouse anyone knows who did it you just complained about our soldiers in Georgia, given 2 "examples of oppression in Russia", and of course a lot of "true" about terrible russian regime. Anyway all your comments could be discribed as "georgian people trying to establish democracy and freedom are oppresed by bad russians who want return USSR, NKWD, and only western media can tell you what else". So parhaps you will read what was responded to you?[/quote]
One simple thing SiD, I have never said that EU and NATO are the same...Just what I said is that if a country is the part of EU and even not NATO, aggression on such country will be replied by whole EU, as Most EU countries are the members of NATO, it automatically means that NATO would be involved in the conflict. So while telling that you are not agaist georgia entering EU, there are two possibilities, or you really do not understand the main principles of EU and Nato, and have never read any official documents about them, or you are pretending that It is ok for you if georgia enters EU. Which one???
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Platon - 08-26-2008
It is time for Russians to give up with Dostoevsky and read more Thucydides and Homer.
They can learn more about gentleman hood, piety, brotherhood. After this they can't fear of NATO any more.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Salomo - 08-26-2008
SVP,
I have read all your texts with great interest. They are well written and I have tried to understand the Russian point of view through them. I would like to ask you some questions, which I however still have not understood (some of them may have been initiated by other Russians, but I feel you are the best person to explain them):
1) Why demonise only Saakashvili in this crisis? If someone, who has ordered to bomb civilian towns or to kill civilians with other methods, is called a mad person and a kind of Hitler, then fine… but he is not alone here! Also Russians bombed the civilians in Gori, don’t forget that. And your beloved Putin let bomb Groznyi I do not remembered how many times… but it really was in ruins, you must admit it. So… why not call also Putin a fool who is dangerous for humanity?
2) Why don’t you blame at all the South Ossetians who shooted on the close Georgian villages or the Abkhazians who drove away hundreds of thousands of Georgians from Abkhazia? (Morally, a referendum would need to be done about Abkhazian independency, with also these away-driven people voting, don’t you think?)
3) Why was Russian invasion necessary in Abkhazia at all? And in close cities like Poti? I have not heard of any Georgians' heavy attack on Sukhumi like their heavy attack on Tskhinvali?
4) Why was it necessary to drop bombs on CIVILIAN targets in pure Georgian towns like Gori? (I can not think Russian pilots are so bad that they drop bombs on civilian residence areas just by mistake!) Russians could have had a much better image worldwide and sympathy on their side without these bombings, why did they destroy this possibility?
5) Why was it necessary to destroy the railway bridge in Kaspi on whole Georgia’s main railway?? Army forces would not even use railway, they would use roads! I regard the destroying of the bridge as pure terrorism. (I am btw surprised almost nobody has mentioned this bridge here.) And why burn down forests in the national park? Pure revenge and terrorism, I would say.
6) Why were Gorbachev and Yeltsin shitheads, according to you? In my opinion, Gorbachev was the only pleasant leader of Russia since Czar Alexander II (whom we of course can know only through history books). Gorbachev’s politics led to the fall of an imperialistic empire, which was the best thing that could happen in the end of last century! A lot of small nations, including our small Baltic neighbours whom we have followed a lot, re-gained independence. Ok, this was not Gorby’s intention maybe, but he was finally a liberalisator after decades of dictatorship. Spasiba, Gorby! And during Yeltsin, Russia started to liberalise even more. (Though I admit many things: Russia’s economical liberalisation went too fast and out of control, it however started a war in Chechnya, Yeltsin was drunkard etc.)
7) And why do you like Putin? During his regime, freedom of speech has gone only backwards compared to 1990’s, NGO’s have difficulties to be allowed to exist, opposition’s politicians are forbidden to take part in elections, imprisoned or given very little speech in medias (Garry Kasparov and the whole Other Russia party… plus the Yabloko party, plus many others)… What is the purpose of all this? Why is Putin so afraid of opposition? Russia will soon be a dictatorship?!
8) I understand the worrying of Russia about the enlargement of NATO, but the big difference between NATO and the former Warsaw Pact was: if you asked the people of the nations concerned, they would not have joined the Warsaw Pact, but are much more willing to enter into NATO. Because they do not want to be “alone” any more when some foreign invader threats them… For example the Baltic countries were occupied by USSR during 45 years, Russian became the official language, the only until 1988 (I think, am not sure, but remember some news from Estonia in 1987 or 1988 when Estonian was re-introduced as official language of Estonia!). Do we need to wonder why Baltics and others are EXTREMELY suspicious against Russia? And as we also have Chechnya, a war without Soviet-communistic imperialism, only Russian imperialism again…
I have been straight with my questions. I hope you find time to answer them. Of course, answering is permitted to other pro-Russians too. I would really like to understand the Russian point of view on these issues.
I wish this discussion is getting higher level than in the other thread “Georgia and South Ossetia at war”, where it really starts to degenerate with its 164 pages…
And for the record, I am from Finland and very critical against super-powers, USA included when it comes to e.g. Iraq, Chile 1973 and the control of its own “backyard”. In fact, I would prefer super powers to have control over each other’s backyards, that could make the world more balanced
I supported Kosovo's independence (because I think it is the will of the majority of people living there) and have nothing against independence of South Ossetia or Abkhazia either, if only referendums are held there with also chased people voting.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - lashachochua - 08-26-2008
Platon Wrote:It is time for Russians to give up with Dostoevsky and read more Thucydides and Homer.
They can learn more about gentleman hood, piety, brotherhood. After this they can't fear of NATO any more.
Platon we are far from this... It will never happen while russian will not receive relevent historical lesson for their terror they are offering to whole world for one century already. It has to stop...and it will stop. Also, if they read Dostoevsky.... :|
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - lashachochua - 08-26-2008
Salomo Wrote:SVP,
I have read all your texts with great interest. They are well written and I have tried to understand the Russian point of view through them. I would like to ask you some questions, which I however still have not understood (some of them may have been initiated by other Russians, but I feel you are the best person to explain them):
1) Why demonise only Saakashvili in this crisis? If someone, who has ordered to bomb civilian towns or to kill civilians with other methods, is called a mad person and a kind of Hitler, then fine… but he is not alone here! Also Russians bombed the civilians in Gori, don’t forget that. And your beloved Putin let bomb Groznyi I do not remembered how many times… but it really was in ruins, you must admit it. So… why not call also Putin a fool who is dangerous for humanity?
2) Why don’t you blame at all the South Ossetians who shooted on the close Georgian villages or the Abkhazians who drove away hundreds of thousands of Georgians from Abkhazia? (Morally, a referendum would need to be done about Abkhazian independency, with also these away-driven people voting, don’t you think?)
3) Why was Russian invasion necessary in Abkhazia at all? And in close cities like Poti? I have not heard of any Georgians' heavy attack on Sukhumi like their heavy attack on Tskhinvali?
4) Why was it necessary to drop bombs on CIVILIAN targets in pure Georgian towns like Gori? (I can not think Russian pilots are so bad that they drop bombs on civilian residence areas just by mistake!) Russians could have had a much better image worldwide and sympathy on their side without these bombings, why did they destroy this possibility?
5) Why was it necessary to destroy the railway bridge in Kaspi on whole Georgia’s main railway?? Army forces would not even use railway, they would use roads! I regard the destroying of the bridge as pure terrorism. (I am btw surprised almost nobody has mentioned this bridge here.) And why burn down forests in the national park? Pure revenge and terrorism, I would say.
6) Why were Gorbachev and Yeltsin shitheads, according to you? In my opinion, Gorbachev was the only pleasant leader of Russia since Czar Alexander II (whom we of course can know only through history books). Gorbachev’s politics led to the fall of an imperialistic empire, which was the best thing that could happen in the end of last century! A lot of small nations, including our small Baltic neighbours whom we have followed a lot, re-gained independence. Ok, this was not Gorby’s intention maybe, but he was finally a liberalisator after decades of dictatorship. Spasiba, Gorby! And during Yeltsin, Russia started to liberalise even more. (Though I admit many things: Russia’s economical liberalisation went too fast and out of control, it however started a war in Chechnya, Yeltsin was drunkard etc.)
7) And why do you like Putin? During his regime, freedom of speech has gone only backwards compared to 1990’s, NGO’s have difficulties to be allowed to exist, opposition’s politicians are forbidden to take part in elections, imprisoned or given very little speech in medias (Garry Kasparov and the whole Other Russia party… plus the Yabloko party, plus many others)… What is the purpose of all this? Why is Putin so afraid of opposition? Russia will soon be a dictatorship?!
8) I understand the worrying of Russia about the enlargement of NATO, but the big difference between NATO and the former Warsaw Pact was: if you asked the people of the nations concerned, they would not have joined the Warsaw Pact, but are much more willing to enter into NATO. Because they do not want to be “alone” any more when some foreign invader threats them… For example the Baltic countries were occupied by USSR during 45 years, Russian became the official language, the only until 1988 (I think, am not sure, but remember some news from Estonia in 1987 or 1988 when Estonian was re-introduced as official language of Estonia!). Do we need to wonder why Baltics and others are EXTREMELY suspicious against Russia? And as we also have Chechnya, a war without Soviet-communistic imperialism, only Russian imperialism again…
I have been straight with my questions. I hope you find time to answer them. Of course, answering is permitted to other pro-Russians too. I would really like to understand the Russian point of view on these issues.
I wish this discussion is getting higher level than in the other thread “Georgia and South Ossetia at war”, where it really starts to degenerate with its 164 pages…
And for the record, I am from Finland and very critical against super-powers, USA included when it comes to e.g. Iraq, Chile 1973 and the control of its own “backyard”. In fact, I would prefer super powers to have control over each other’s backyards, that could make the world more balanced
I supported Kosovo's independence (because I think it is the will of the majority of people living there) and have nothing against independence of South Ossetia or Abkhazia either, if only referendums are held there with also chased people voting.
Great Salomo, you have formulated very clearly all questions...I do not know if you read my comments I have covered most of them in my replies, but there is no answer....what pro-russians here say is that saakashvili is crazy, georgia started bomberding and tha's all....They even critisized me when I said that there is connection between EU and NATO, that while ountry is the part of EU and not NATO, in the case of aggression the NATO will be automatically involved in the conflict. They want Georgia in EU but Not in NATO, but this two things have close ties....Now you decide about what they are talking and what they stessing here. It is strange that Russia wanted to build safety net with USA and USA said no....They do not undestand that in many cases, USA is far more democratic than Russia, and that Democratic countries are aware in relations with undemocratic countries........The case of forest is really terrible they destroyed mostly the whole forest, forest which is unique in this region....Terrible..........
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Platon - 08-26-2008
Lasha I know, but what I do not understand why you spend so much time convincing them? It is useless man.
They are ABGESTAMPELT. did you see russian politicians during the live interviews on BBC, CNN... they were so funny, looked like in James bond.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - VladZ - 08-26-2008
Georgia started first. Many People are the Slaves of mass-media. See the truth...
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Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - lashachochua - 08-26-2008
Platon Wrote:Lasha I know, but what I do not understand why you spend so much time convincing them? It is useless man.
They are ABGESTAMPELT. did you see russian politicians during the live interviews on BBC, CNN... they were so funny, looked like in James bond.
Just I do not want russians and pro-russians to feel here comfortable....This is the tinny thing what can I do for my country now.....I had no possibility to be in the war, nevertheless I wanted it so much......
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - lashachochua - 08-26-2008
VladZ Wrote:Georgia started first. Many People are the Slaves of mass-media. See the truth...
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Where is the truth, the bomerding georgian soldiers started late night, who was in rastuarant,, come on....what about fire from ossetian sides for 2-3 days before everything started...........
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - SiD - 08-26-2008
lashachochua Wrote:One simple thing SiD, I have never said that EU and NATO are the same...Just what I said is that if a country is the part of EU and even not NATO, aggression on such country will be replied by whole EU, as Most EU countries are the members of NATO, it automatically means that NATO would be involved in the conflict. So while telling that you are not agaist georgia entering EU, there are two possibilities, or you really do not understand the main principles of EU and Nato, and have never read any official documents about them, or you are pretending that It is ok for you if georgia enters EU. Which one???
dont you see difference? If you part of EU and NATO will protect you in case of agression than it is one thing. But if military forces of the alliance are using your soil that is whole other thing. Anyway your leadership shown thier commitment to join NATO so it is pointless discussion.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - VladZ - 08-26-2008
2 Sid:
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Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - SiD - 08-27-2008
Salomo Wrote:1) Why demonise only Saakashvili in this crisis? If someone, who has ordered to bomb civilian towns or to kill civilians with other methods, is called a mad person and a kind of Hitler, then fine… but he is not alone here! Also Russians bombed the civilians in Gori, don’t forget that. And your beloved Putin let bomb Groznyi I do not remembered how many times… but it really was in ruins, you must admit it. So… why not call also Putin a fool who is dangerous for humanity?
Putin waged second chechen war that is first. During thier defacto indepandance Chechnya became base for terrorists from many countryes. They needed no peace and you can find what did they done to us. They doesnt needed independance for chechen people they came to wage thier war against us. So there was only one resolution to make us safe, war.
I didnt heard about south osetians invading Georgia or s osetians taking hostages in Tbilisi, or bomb them.(parhaps there were some? i didnt heard, georgians can correct me if i am wrong)
So as you see Putin is much more justified than Saakashvili. I excuse no crime and during chechen wars were many from both sides but i think that war was neccecery.
Salomo Wrote:3) Why was Russian invasion necessary in Abkhazia at all? And in close cities like Poti? I have not heard of any Georgians' heavy attack on Sukhumi like their heavy attack on Tskhinvali?
4) Why was it necessary to drop bombs on CIVILIAN targets in pure Georgian towns like Gori? (I can not think Russian pilots are so bad that they drop bombs on civilian residence areas just by mistake!) Russians could have had a much better image worldwide and sympathy on their side without these bombings, why did they destroy this possibility?
5) Why was it necessary to destroy the railway bridge in Kaspi on whole Georgia’s main railway?? Army forces would not even use railway, they would use roads! I regard the destroying of the bridge as pure terrorism. (I am btw surprised almost nobody has mentioned this bridge here.) And why burn down forests in the national park? Pure revenge and terrorism, I would say.
In many cases i can agree that we overreacted and there were real tragedys. Still you blame Russia for carnage of war. War is not gentlemen fight club, war is cruel, war always bring death and countless tragedies.
That is why it should be avoided, not started ( like Saakashvili did). Our military response was neccecery. What were they thinking? That they will just smash our peacekeepers and local population and we will do nothing? Russia warned world comunity many times how dangerous situation is. Why wasnt enyone concerned?
Some were too busy arming georgia to pay attention at our words.
Salomo Wrote:2) Why don’t you blame at all the South Ossetians who shooted on the close Georgian villages or the Abkhazians who drove away hundreds of thousands of Georgians from Abkhazia? (Morally, a referendum would need to be done about Abkhazian independency, with also these away-driven people voting, don’t you think?)
I do not excuse any crime. But dont you think that crimes were mutual? Do you think shooting from S Osetia could not be response to shooting from georgian villages? Conflict was frozen for decade, do you think it was first time wen someone shoot at another in this zone? You cant blame one side, georgians were not spreading flowers, love and peace ther you know.
So the main thing is that this attack on S Osetia was prepared, even wenn Saakashvili talked about peace they were preparing. So were we. We were preparing too i do not denie this, but we tryed to point attention of world community on this situation many times(not to mention that they arent blind and could see it themselves even if we wasnt tryed).
Salomo Wrote:6) Why were Gorbachev and Yeltsin shitheads, according to you? In my opinion, Gorbachev was the only pleasant leader of Russia since Czar Alexander II (whom we of course can know only through history books). Gorbachev’s politics led to the fall of an imperialistic empire, which was the best thing that could happen in the end of last century! A lot of small nations, including our small Baltic neighbours whom we have followed a lot, re-gained independence. Ok, this was not Gorby’s intention maybe, but he was finally a liberalisator after decades of dictatorship. Spasiba, Gorby! And during Yeltsin, Russia started to liberalise even more. (Though I admit many things: Russia’s economical liberalisation went too fast and out of control, it however started a war in Chechnya, Yeltsin was drunkard etc.)
Salomo Wrote:7) And why do you like Putin? During his regime, freedom of speech has gone only backwards compared to 1990’s, NGO’s have difficulties to be allowed to exist, opposition’s politicians are forbidden to take part in elections, imprisoned or given very little speech in medias (Garry Kasparov and the whole Other Russia party… plus the Yabloko party, plus many others)… What is the purpose of all this? Why is Putin so afraid of opposition? Russia will soon be a dictatorship?!
Number 6 will be answered by someone else. Just see results of tier rule it will speak louder.
number 7 I can tell for myself. I woted for Putin, than for his party ,than for Medvedev. I could (and can) learn anything i want about any party if i wish. no one ordered me or told to vote corectly or in some way tried to force my choice.
Putin has many critics in Russia. Some of my friends dislike him.
I will answer 8 question later, time to sleep you know
.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - lashachochua - 08-27-2008
:haha :haha :haha :haha :haha :haha SiD great, finally you confessed to whom you support, you voted for PUTIN, everythin is clear... You pitty SiD, Putinizm is so strong in your head that you are writing aby boolsh..t possible to write........It is really time for you to do something else....By the way as I gues you have no any job, it is ligical, sitting here and writing boolsh...t :haha :haha :haha :haha
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - SiD - 08-27-2008
lashachochua Wrote::haha :haha :haha :haha :haha :haha SiD great, finally you confessed to whom you support, you voted for PUTIN, everythin is clear... You pitty SiD, Putinizm is so strong in your head that you are writing aby boolsh..t possible to write........It is really time for you to do something else....By the way as I gues you have no any job, it is ligical, sitting here and writing boolsh...t :haha :haha :haha :hahaAdmitted? i never hided it. So you can as well shut your fu.... mouth becouse it was meant for different things than conversation as it seems. Do i need to remind you how idiotic your quesses are? parhaps you should ask independent. So stop spreading your b..sht.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - gogita - 08-27-2008
Maybe you will bother yourself to analyze and drew appropriate conclusions.
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Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - gogita - 08-27-2008
Analyze please
Timeline of Russian Aggression in Georgia
Document by the Government of Georgia
25 August 2008
Tbilisi
The Government of Georgia invites the international community and journalists to verify the information laid out in the timeline below.
Purpose of this document
In seeking to justify its invasion of Georgia, Russia has claimed that its forces entered Georgian territory only after a purported "surprise Georgian assault” on Tskhinvali; however, Moscow continues to refuse to make public the time at which Russia launched its invasion into Georgia.
As the following timeline makes clear, Georgian Government forces advanced into the Tskhinvali region only after days of intensive shelling that caused civilian deaths in villages under Georgian control —and after confirmation that a massive Russian land force had begun invading Georgia through the Roki Tunnel.
This was the culmination of months of meticulous planning by Russia; 40,000 Russian troops were soon occupying Georgia, as part of a simultaneous land, air and sea assault, unfolding a premeditated strategy that had little to do with Russia’s stated claim of protecting its recently created "citizens” in the Tskhinvali region.
This document is organized into the following three sections:
I. RUSSIAN ESCALATION 2004-AUGUST 2008: Russian Policy Toward Georgia in the Months Before the Invasion
II. Key points: The Days Before, During & After Russia’s Invasion of Georgia
III. Detailed Chronology: the Days Before, During & After Russia’s Invasion of Georgia
I. Russian ESCALATION 2004-July 2008: Key Developments in the Russian Military & Political Escalation Before the Invasion of Georgia
· Georgian peace proposals repeatedly rejected by Russia (2004 onwards): Beginning in 2004, the Georgian Government has repeatedly proposed to launch a genuine peace process for South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Years of stalemate had left all ethnic populations in both conflict zones impoverished and without any effective protection of basic rights; Georgians in particular were targeted and persecuted on ethnic grounds. The Russian Federation and separatist leaders have rejected Georgia’s peace initiatives each and every time they have been proposed—even when the international community backed the initiatives. As a result, South Ossetia and Abkhazia have become hubs for acute criminal activity, including kidnapping, extortion, counterfeiting, smuggling of arms and drugs. At least one case of nuclear smuggling has been confirmed (Annex 1).
· Russia gains stranglehold over separatist governments (2005 onwards): In recent years, Moscow has been exerting an increasingly strong hold over the separatist governments; since 2005, Russian military and civilian officials seconded from Moscow effectively have been governing South Ossetia (Annex 2).
· Russia builds illegal base near Tskhinvali (2006): In spring 2006, Russian forces illegally build of a forward military base in the strategically located town of Java (north of Tskhinvali). The base has capacity for 2,500 soldiers, and includes substantial fuel-storage capabilities for tanks and other armored vehicles.
· CIS arms/economic embargo lifted illegally by Moscow (March 2008): In March, the Russian Federation unilaterally—and illegally—withdraws from a CIS economic and arms embargo imposed in 1994 on the secessionist region of Abkhazia, Georgia.
· International community condemns Russia’s legal recognition of S. Ossetia & Abkhazia (April 2008): On April 16, Moscow sharply escalates tensions by decreeing the establishment of legal links between Russia and the Georgian regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia; this is a form of de facto annexation of Georgian territory and draws sharp rebukes from the entire international community—including the EU, the US, the OSCE, and others, who call for the immediate reversal of this Russian decision.
· United Nations confirms Russia downs Georgian aircraft over Georgian airspace (April 2006): On April 20, a Russian fighter jet downs an unarmed Georgian drone (MIA) over Georgian airspace (near Ganmukhuri), an act of aggression confirmed by formal UNOMIG and OSCE investigative reports. (Annex 3)
· Russia increases troop strength & introduces paratroopers into Abkhazia (May/June 2008): In the following weeks, Russia continues to unilaterally increase its troop strength in Abkhazia, without fulfilling its legal obligation to seek the consent of Georgia; among other moves, it deploys paratrooper units, which are incompatible with the existing format for peacekeeping.
· Russia moves illegal heavy weaponry & offensive forces into Abkhazia (May/June 2008): In direct contravention of all peacekeeping norms and agreements, Russia introduces additional offensive military troops and heavy weaponry in Abkhazia, verified by UNOMIG.
· Russian railroad troops sent to Abkhazia to prepare rails for invasion (May 26, 2008): On May 26, Russia sends more than 400 hundreds of Ministry of Defense "railroad troops” into Abkhazia to reinforce the rail infrastructure needed for military action; these troops do not belong to any peacekeeping unit.
· As peace plan advances, Russian provocations move to S. Ossetia (July 2008): In July, as the efforts by Georgia and the international community to advance peace proposals for Abkhazia are gathering pace, the focus of Russian provocations suddenly shifts to South Ossetia.
· Separatists attempt to assassinate S. Ossetian unionist leader (July 3, 2008): On July 3, South Ossetian separatists attempt to assassinate Dimitry Sanakoyev, the Head of the Temporary Administration of South Ossetia ; three policemen are injured.
· Russia defiantly acknowledges violating Georgian airspace (July 10, 2008): On July 9, Four Russian military aircraft violate Georgian airspace on the eve of US Secretary of State Rice’s visit to Georgia. Although Russia continually violates Georgian airspace, this is the first time Moscow acknowledges it has done so deliberately.
· Russia undertakes large-scale military exercises near S. Ossetia: & Abkhazia (July 2008): Russia launches large-scale military exercises (July 15-August 2) in the immediate vicinity of Georgia’s northern border; they are named "Caucasus 2008.” The Russian Defense Ministry claims that the exercises, involving over 8,000 troops and 700 pieces of military hardware, are aimed at preparing for "special peace enforcement operations” in the Georgian regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. During the exercise, anti-Georgian leaflets are distributed entitled "Know Your Enemy”.
· Russian troops fail to redeploy (August 2 2008): Russian troops participating in the exercise do not re-deploy from the region when the exercises are finished.
· Separatists reject German-mediated peace plan (July 18, 2008): On July 18, Abkhaz separatists reject a German-mediated peace plan and refuse to attend peace talks scheduled in Berlin.
· EU organizes peace talks, separatists fail to appear (July 22-24, 2008): On July 22-24, the EU tries to hold talks in Brussels between representatives of the Government of Georgia and the South Ossetian separatists, with the participation of the Russian Federation. The separatists refuse to participate, initially objecting to the title of Minister Yakobashvili—"Minister for Reintegration.” In response, the Georgian Government appoints Mr. Yakobashvili as a Special Envoy for Conflict Resolution. The separatists once again refuse to attend the talks on unspecified grounds.
· OSCE proposes peace talks, separatists reject proposal (late July 2008): OSCE Chairman in Office, Finnish Foreign Minister Alexander Stubb, proposes talks in Helsinki in early August between South Ossetian separatists and the Georgian Government. The separatists reject the proposal.
II. KEY POINTS: The Days Before, During & After Russia’s Invasion of Georgia
· July 3: One month before Russia’s invasion into Georgia, separatists try to assassinate Dimitri Sanakoyev, Head of the Temporary Administration of South Ossetia. A remote control road bomb exploded while Mr Sanakoyev’s cortege was passing by. Five policemen accompanying Mr. Sanakoyev were wounded. Mr. Sanakoyev—a former separatist fighter and defense minister in the separatist government - laid down his arms in 2006 to promote the peaceful re-integration of the region with the rest of the country under a broad autonomy arrangement. Mr. Sanakoyev was elected in democratic elections and administered up to 50% of the territory of the region.
· July 29: For the first time since last major hostilities, separatist militia begin intensively shelling ethnically mixed villages under Georgian control, including those of them where the Georgian peacekeepers held their check-points, with large-caliber artillery (greater than 82 mm) which is prohibited by existing agreements. This fact is formally acknowledged by the Head of "Peacekeeping Forces,” Russian General Marat Kulakhmetov on August 4 (he makes specific reference to the shelling on villages under Government control on August 1 and 2 with high caliber artillery). Shelling of this magnitude continues on a regular basis through August 7, in advance of the Russian land invasion into Georgia.
· 1 August: A pickup truck carrying six police officers of MIA of Georgia is hit by two remote-control explosive devices (IED) on the Eredvi-Kheiti bypass road, close to the Government controlled enclave north of the city of Tskhinvali. Five policemen are severely wounded.
· 3 August: Russian media outlets report the large-scale mobilization of volunteers across the Russian North Caucasus, including pledges by Cossacks to deploy mercenary troops into Georgia.
· 4 August: The separatists announce the evacuation of the civilian population from Tskhinvali and from the separatist controlled villages of the region.
· 5 & 7 August: At the request of President Saakashvili, Special Envoy Temur Yakobashvili twice attempts to negotiate with separatists, but his requests are rebuffed.
· 7 August: The Special Envoy of Russia’s Foreign Ministry, Yuri Popov, fails to mediate preliminary agreed talks on a ceasefire, citing refusal by the separatists, while shelling of Villages under Government control continues.
· General Kulakhmetov, during the meeting in Tskhinvali with Special Envoy Yakobashvili, declares that he cannot contact the separatist leaders, and that Russian "peacekeepers” cannot stop the separatist attacks; General Kulakhmetov admits that the separatists were shooting from the vicinity of Russian "peacekeeping” posts.
· In spite of casualties among Georgian peacekeepers and civilians killed by separatist fire, President Saakashvili orders an immediate ceasefire and calls for negotiations. He reaffirms the Government’s proposal to grant broad "European standard” autonomy to the region, and offers Russia to serve as a guarantor. President Saakashvili also announces an unconditional amnesty for separatists who agree to cease hostilities.
· Despite the ceasefire declared by President Saakashvili, the separatists intensify their shelling of villages under Georgian control and Georgian peacekeeper posts.
· Approximately 150 armored vehicles and military trucks of the Russian regular army stream into the Roki Tunnel and head towards Tskhinvali. In response to the entry of Russian armed forces into Georgian territory, the Georgian military enters the conflict zone in the region.
· Russia claims that its forces entered Georgian territory only after a purported "surprise Georgian assault” on Tskhinvali; however Russia continues to refuse to make public the time at which it launched its invasion into Georgia.
· 8 August: The Ministry of Defense of Russia and various senior officials claim that Georgian forces "have killed 2,000 civilians” in Tskhinvali.
· 11 August: Human Rights Watch representative say that Russia purposely exaggerated casualty figures in Tskhinvali, leading to revenge killings against the ethnic Georgian population (Annex 4).
· 21 August: The Russian Prosecutor General’s Office reports significantly lower civilian casualty figures in the South Ossetia region at 133. There is a strong likelihood that the majority of these casualties were separatist militiamen, as local officials frequently refer to non-Russian servicemen as civilians (Annexes 5 and 6).
· 9–24 August: Following the retreat of Georgian armed forces towards Tbilisi, the Russian armed forces and paramilitary groupss conduct widespread atrocities, including the burning, looting, kidnapping, raping, and summary executions of Georgian civilians inside and outside the zone of conflict. Within the zone of conflict, entire villages of Eredvi, Avnevi, Nuli, Kurta, Achabeti, Tamarasheni, Kekhvi, Disevi, etc., are deliberately burned and destroyed, resulting in the ethnic cleansing of Georgians. Many of these events are confirmed in reports issued by international human rights organizations. (Annex 7).
III. Detailed Chronology: The Days Before, During & After Russia’s Invasion of Georgia
28 July: Separatist units open fire at joint peacekeeping forces and an OSCE observer group moving towards the village of Chorbauli (Znauri district), thus disrupting monitoring activity.
29 July: Separatists open fire at villages under Government control to the north of Tskhinvali. They fire at a group of OSCE observers, working with the joint peacekeeping forces, who are on their way to the village of Andzisi. (Annex 8) 120 mm mortars and grenade launchers target a Georgian peacekeeping checkpoint near the village of Sarabuki.
30 July: A Georgian police car, traveling between the villages of Kekhvi and Sveri, is fired upon from positions in the separatist-controlled village of Andzisi.
31 July: The joint monitoring group of the JPKF and the OSCE mission observe large-scale fortification works undertaken by the separatists on two checkpoints between Tskhinvali and the village of Ergneti.
1 August: A pickup truck carrying six Georgian police officers is hit by two remote-control explosive devices (IED) close to a Georgian enclave north of the city of Tskhinvali. Five policemen are severely wounded. Later that day,separatists open fire with machine guns and grenade launchers on the villages under Government control Kvemo Nikozi, Zemo Nikozi, Avnevi, Ergneti, and Eredvi. Attacks also are directed at Georgian police and peacekeepers checkpoints. In the village of Nuli, one person is wounded and several houses damaged. Georgian peacekeepers checkpoint in Sarabuki comes under attack. In the village of Ergneti, one person is wounded and two houses are damaged. Separatists reported, that six separatist militia are killed and 12 wounded after Georgian police open fire in response.
2 August: Six civilians and one servicemen of MIA of Georgia are injured after separatists shell villages under Georgian control in the conflict zone overnight. The villages of Zemo Nikozi, Kvemo Nikozi, Nuli, Avnevi, Eredvi, and Ergneti come under intense large-caliber mortar fire the separatists. Georgian law enforcers initially shoot back in self-defense, but are soon ordered to cease fire in order not to escalate the situation.
3 August: The separatist government starts an evacuation of the civilian population from the city of Tskhinvali and villages under separatist control of the region. The evacuation continues for the next two days.
Russian media outlets start a massive propaganda campaign against Georgia, advocating for volunteers and militias to support separatists in South Ossetia. Representatives of major Russian television networks (i.e. NTV, RTR, ORT, Ren TV, TVC, etc.) are on-site in Tskhinvali.
South Ossetia media sources report the mobilization of volunteers from across the North Caucasus of Russia.
4 August: General Marat Kulakhmetov, Head of the "Peacekeeping Forces,” formally acknowledges the shelling of Georgian positions with illegal (large-caliber) artillery. (Annex 9). On the evening of August 4, the medical and communication units of Russia’s 58th Army enter South Ossetia, according to human intelligence received by the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Georgia.
Eleven artillery gunships (2S1-"Gvozdika”) in the possession of separatists are relocated from Java to the villages of Andzisi, Dzari, and Tsru, close to Tskhinvali, according to intelligence provided to the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Georgia.
5 August: 3 tanks and 2 military trucks with armed soldiers are reported moving towards the village of Avnevi. According to telephone intercepts, separatist internal affairs minister M. Mindzaev (formerly head of the General Staff of the Ministry of Interior of North Ossetia, Russia and former head of the Alfa Special Forces Group during Russia’s operation in Beslan) orders a massive attack on—and the elimination of—the village Dvani (SigInt)*.
*Here and below signal interseptions are cited. They are available upon request.
Special Envoy Temur Yakobashvili visits the conflict zone Tskhinvali, meets Russian General Marat Kulakhmetov, to agree the next meeting for 7 August to defuse the situation.
A journalist of Le Figaro, Laure Mandeville later quotes a Russian soldier in Gori who says that Russian troops began moving from Shali in the Chechnya region of Russia towards Georgia on August 5.
6 August: Approximately 150 volunteers from the North Caucasus arrive in Tskhinvali as reported by local television; militants from other North Caucasian republics join separatist units.
Russian and local employees working on the military base in Tskhinvali are temporarily dismissed. Shops and other offices are closed, as reported on local television.
In the late afternoon at approximately 16:00, separatists open mortar fire from the villages of Pranevi, Ubiati, and Khetagurovo at ethnically mixed and Georgian-controlled villages of Eredvi, Prisi, Avnevi, Dvani, and Nuli. Khetagurovo was the main artillery base of the separatists. This attack continues until approximately 19:00.
A lull is then observed for one hour, with attacks resuming at 20:00 and lasting until late into the night. Georgian government forces fire back in order to defend their positions and the civilian population. As a result of intensive cross-fire during the night, two servicemen of the Georgian battalion of the Joint Peacekeeping Forces are injured. The separatist regime also claims several persons are injured on their side. Despite these provocative, targeted attacks on peaceful civilians and on Georgian police and peacekeeping forces, the Government of Georgia decides not to respond with heavy fire, in order not to escalate the conflict.
7 August: In a morning interview with Russian TV (NTV) and news agencies, South Ossetian separatist leader Eduard Kokoity declares that if the Georgian government does not withdraw its forces from the region, he will start "to wipe them out.” The Georgian military forces to which he refers are peacekeepers legally present in the South Ossetia conflict zone.
Georgian Special Envoy Temur Yakobashvili visits the conflict zone on August 7 to meet with representatives of the separatists. He meets General Marat Kulakhmetov, in Tskhinvali; Kulakhmetov states that he cannot contact the separatist leader Kokoity, and that Russian peacekeepers cannot stop the separatist attacks. Kulakhmetov admits that the separatists are shooting from the vicinity of Russian peacekeeping posts. During this meeting, at approximately 16:00, General Kulakhmetov suggests to Minister Yakobashvili that the Government of Georgia declare a unilateral ceasefire.
The Special Envoy of Russia’s Foreign Ministry, Yuri Popov fails to arrive to Tskinvali, as previously agreed together with Minister Yakobashvili, citing a flat tire and a flat spare tire. When he finally reaches Tskhinvali, Popov meets Kokoity, and afterwards concedes that he cannot convince the separatists to hold urgent talks with Minister Yakobashvili (Annex 10).
Earlier, at approximately 00:15, separatists begin attacking the villages of Eredvi, Prisi, and Vanati, with artillery, including mortars and grenade launchers. Simultaneously, the separatists attack the Sarabuki Heights, where Georgian peacekeepers are stationed. Three Georgian peacekeepers are wounded during the Sarabuki attack. The fighting in this area continues until approximately 10:00.
At approximately 11:00, separatists resume shelling the Georgian villages of Nuli, Avnevi, Vanati, from the village of Khetagurovo. Three Georgian servicemen are injured; a Georgian law enforcers return fire towards the village where the firing comes from, Khetagurovo, killing two separatists and wounding two others. At approximately 14:00, the Georgian peacekeeping checkpoint in Avnevi is shelled, including again from Khetagurovo, killing two Georgian peacekeepers and eight civilians. Phone conversation interception of separatist militia confirming the death of Georgian military servicemen and civilians is available (Sigint)*.
After the killing of civilians and Georgian peacekeepers, at approximately 14:30, Georgian armed forces receive intelligence that Russian troops that had still not redeployed from July’s North Caucasian military exercises have been put on high alert and have received orders to prepare to march towards the Georgian border.
At approximately 14:30, Georgian forces mobilize tanks, 122mm howitzers, and 203mm self-propelled artillery in the direction of the administrative border of South Ossetia, in an effort to deter further separatist attacks, and to be in a position to defend the Russian-Georgian border in the event that Russia invades.
At approximately 17:00, Minister Yakobashvili calls General Kulakhmetov to inform him of the Government of Georgia’s decision to implement a unilateral ceasefire.
At approximately 17:10, Georgian peacekeepers unilaterally cease fire to defuse tensions.
At 18:40, Minister Yakobashvili holds a press conference to discuss the results of his visit to Tskhinvali, and announces the decision of the Government of Georgia to call for and implement a unilateral ceasefire.
At 19:10, in a televised address, President Saakashvili declares a unilateral ceasefire and calls for the separatists to respect it and resume talks.
At approximately 20:30, a Government controlled village of Avnevi comes under separatist mortar fire from Khetagurovo.
The chairman of the separatist Security Council, Anatoly Barankevich (a long-standing Russian military officer, who served for four years as First Deputy of the Military Commissioner in Chechnya), tells the local TV that armed groups of Cossacks are headed towards South Ossetia to "fight against Georgian forces”.
At 22:30, separatists fire at the Government -controlled village of Prisi and Tamarsheni, from Tskhinvali and the mountain of Tliakana, wounding civilians.
At 23:30, separatists open heavy fire on all Georgian peacekeepers’ positions around Tskhinvali, including the villages of Tamarasheni and Kurta; the Kurta police station is destroyed.
At 23:30, Georgian Government receive multiple human intelligence reports that about 150 armored vehicles and trucks with Russian soldiers are approaching the Roki Tunnel from Russia and moving towards Tskhinvali. Multiple signal intercepts of separatist security and military officials at around 3am and later confirm that columns are stretched from Roki to Java. (Sigint)*.
At 23:50, for the first time, and in response to the entry of Russian armed forces into Georgian sovereign territory, Georgian armed forces enter military action—using armor, including tanks, 122mm howitzers, and 203mm self-propelled artillery system Dana.
At approximately 00:45 on August 8, Georgian forces fire artillery rounds at the invading Russian forces on roads being used by a Russian column already moving south of the Roki Tunnel.
After Russia’s Full-Scale Invasion: 8 August to present
Outside Tskhinvali
On August 8, after advancing into the conflict zone of South Ossetia, Georgian armed forces seized control of a significant number of villages around Tskhinvali during a five-hour period (Tsinagara, Orchosani, Didmukha, Muguti, Gromi, Dmenisi, and Artsevi, ). During the fighting, Georgian armed forces encountered substantial Russian forces and separatist militias on the Zara bypass road leading to the northeastern part of Tskhinvali and the village of Khetagurovo, which had been substantially re-enforced with advanced artillery systems, armored vehicles, and self-propelled artillery. In response, Georgian artillery shelled both positions. Georgian artillery and aviation conducted a targeted attacks on the Gupta bridge, where Russian armed columns where entering Tskhinvali.
Outskirts of Tskhivali and Inside Tskhinvali
Tskhinvali is a small regional town, located in a river valley, approximately 75 kilometers from Tbilisi. Immediately prior to the conflict, the population was approximately 7,000, based on local intelligence estimates and on-the-ground reports. Following the mass evacuation on August 3-5, the number of residents decreased substantially.
Several Georgian positions were under attack from points on the outskirts of town, specifically from Verkhny Gorodok (the location of the Russian "peacekeepers” on the non-residential southwest portion of the city). This was the first position in the immediate vicinity of Tskhinvali that Georgian forces targeted using GRAD multiple-rocket launching systems, following repeated warnings to the Russian "peacekeeping” forces not to allow their positions to be used for attacks. Soon thereafter, Georgian artillery (again using GRADs) targeted stockpiles of munitions and fuel depots located on the western part of the city—outside civilian areas—and military barracks in the northwest part of Tskhinvali—also outside civilian areas,.
At approximately 11:00, once Georgian forces had secured the heights around Tskhinvali, Ministry of Defense and Ministry of Interior forces entered the city of Tskhinvali. These forces came under fire from positions around the main government compound, located in the center of Tskhinvali. In response, Georgian forces employed precise artillery system Dana (not GRAD) against the ministries of defense, interior, intelligence (KGB), and the main government building of the separatists.
Russian aviation bombed Georgian positions on a continuous basis inside and around Tskhinvali once Government forces began advancing on the town. Russian aviation continued bombing in and around Tskhinvali for the next two days (until late in the day on August 10).
At approximately 14:00, Georgian forces took control of most of Tskhinvali. At 15:00, Georgian forces declared a 3-hour ceasefire to establish a humanitarian corridor.
Georgian forces began a phased retreat from Tskhinvali during the evening of August 9. Forces re-positioned themselves south of the city.
During the two days that Georgian forces were in control of separatist controlled villages (from August 8) there were no credible reports of looting or abuse of civilian populations, according to international human rights organizations. The ethnic Ossetian population in the conflict zone was not displaced, unlike the ethnic Georgian population under the Russian occupation. The only village that sustained severe damage was the village of Khetagurovo due to the location of substantial amounts of military equipment and forces around the village. After Government forces seized Khetagurovo, there was no cruel or degrading treatment of the civilian population, as documented by Human Rights Watch (Annex 11).
Russian Attacks & Invasion Outside the Conflict Zone
Ethnic Cleansing of Georgian Villages
Beginning on August 8 at 09:45, Russian aviation bombed a series of civilian and military targets across Georgia, outside the zone of conflict in South Ossetia, damaging infrastructure and causing significant civilian casualties. (annex 12) These targets include but are not limited to:
1. Gori and surrounding villages (including civilian infrastructure)
2. Marneuli airfield, central Georgia
3. Vaziani airfield, central Georgia
4. Kopitnari airfield, western Georgia
5. Oni (civilian areas), western Georgia
6. Poti port, western Georgia
7. Baku-Supsa oil pipeline, central Georgia
8. Anaklia, western Georgia
9. Zugdidi, western Georgia
10. Upper Abkhazia/Kodori Gorge, Abkhazia region
11. Tbilisi (aircraft factory and civilian radar facility in Tbilisi airport)
12. Khelvachauri, Ajara region
13. Shiraki, eastern Georgia
14. Senaki airport and military base, western Georgia
15. Kaspi, central Georgia
16. Khashuri district villages, central Georgia
17. Borjomi National Park, central Georgia.
International human rights groups have documented seeming targeting of civilian objects by the Russian regular troops. (Annex 11a).
The Russian Federation’s nationwide bombing campaign included the use of SS-26 "Iskander” short-range tactical missiles used against the Baku-Supsa oil pipeline. Russian forces also used short-range tactical missiles SS-21 "Tochka-U”on the cities of Poti and Gori. In the villages around the town of Gori, Russian forces used "Hurricane” missiles. Cluster bombs were used extensively in Gori and nearby villages, including Ruisi and Shindisi. (Annexes 12 and 13)
On August 10, the Russian navy landed in the port city of Ochamchire and launched an unprovoked attack in Upper Abkhazia/Kodori Gorge using artillery and massive air bombing. Until this point, there had been no hostilities in Abkhazia, Georgia. This attack began only after Georgian armed forces, located at the Senaki military base, were re-deployed eastward (August 9).
On August 12, Russian forces invaded the western Georgian town of Zugdidi and the strategic port of Poti.
Over 100 Georgian civilians are still being kept as hostages in inhumane conditions in the prison of Tskhinvali (Annex 14).
Following the retreat of Georgian armed forces towards Tbilisi, until today the Russian armed forces and paramilitary groups conduct widespread atrocities, including the burning, looting, kidnapping, raping, and summary executions of Georgian civilians inside and outside the zone of conflict. Within the zone of conflict, entire villages of Eredvi, Avnevi, Nuli, Kurta, Achabeti, Tamarasheni, Kekhvi, and Disevi, are deliberately burned and destroyed, resulting in the ethnic cleansing of Georgians. These atrocities have been committed after r all military clashes in the area were over. Many of these events are confirmed in reports issued by international human rights organizations (Annex 7).
Currently the Russian troops continue to occupy significant parts of Georgia – Annex 15.
Annex 1 Nuklear Smuggling
Annex 2 Russian officials
Annex 3 UNOMIG Conclusion
Annex 4 Causalties by HRW
Annex 5 Military by HRW
Annex 6 Russian Info on Casualties
Annex 7 Looting by HRW
Annex 8 OSCE on Andzisi Firing
Annex 9 Kulakhmetov Report
Annex 10 OSCE on Popov
Annex 11 HRW on Khetagurovo
Annex 11 a Targeting Civilians HRW
Annex 12 Bombing and Occupation
Annex 13 Cluster Bombs HRW
Annex 14
Annex 14 a
Annex 15 Current Positions
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - SiD - 08-27-2008
gogita Wrote:Analyze please
Timeline of Russian Aggression in Georgia
Document by the Government of Georgia
25 August 2008
Tbilisi
The Government of Georgia invites the international community and journalists to verify the information laid out in the timeline below.
You expected something else? Parhaps they would just say: yes we did it?
But it is usefull to understand georgians position, thank you.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - gogita - 08-27-2008
SiD Wrote:gogita Wrote:Analyze please
Timeline of Russian Aggression in Georgia
Document by the Government of Georgia
25 August 2008
Tbilisi
The Government of Georgia invites the international community and journalists to verify the information laid out in the timeline below.
You expected something else? Parhaps they would just say: yes we did it?
But it is usefull to understand georgians position, thank you.
Maybe you prefer only documents prepared by Russia? There are not any conclussions here, only the facts are presented, which have documented evidences. So try to drive conclusions by yourself, if your brain is not completely washed out by Russian Propaganda machine.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - lashachochua - 08-27-2008
Gogita, it does not matter, what arguments we will provide here, the brains of Russians and pro-russian modern comunnists are fucked by Putinizm....The desire of SiD to make tandem with independence, nevertheless, independence does not bother about it, is shamefull....disreputable for the modern reasoning...I agree with the foreign minister of UK, that the anti-russian coalition should be formed in order to kill the russian aggression........Russia will get this coalition and finally, assimilation of Soviet waste will end the history of russian aggression....The modern thinker-philosopher Francis Fukuyama in his book " The end of History and the last man" was writing:
"What we may be witnessing is not just the end of the Cold War, or the passing of a particular period of post-war history, but the end of history as such... That is, the end point of mankind's ideological evolution and the universalization of Western liberal democracy as the final form of human government."
Russians do not want to admitt this reality, they still think that their tanks and oil is vital weapon in their hands to manipulate with the whole world.......But now there is reality, when such shamefull actions are censured by whole modern world.....Democracy and Liberalizm forever....No Russian Imperializm....No Russiam aggression any more......You should democratize yourself, there is no other way, other better ideology.........
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - lashachochua - 08-27-2008
SiD Wrote:gogita Wrote:Analyze please
Timeline of Russian Aggression in Georgia
Document by the Government of Georgia
25 August 2008
Tbilisi
The Government of Georgia invites the international community and journalists to verify the information laid out in the timeline below.
Or provide the timeline your beloved Putin is working out......Where is the timeline of the conflict, why you do not talk about your facts, where are your facts............
You expected something else? Parhaps they would just say: yes we did it?
But it is usefull to understand georgians position, thank you.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - PATKO - 08-27-2008
This poll is argument what "west" PROPAGANDA is doing!
DO NOT BELIVE AMERICA-EU PROPAGANDA! YOU HAVE YOUR OWN EYES AND BRAIN! :ugeek: