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+--- Thread: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? (/thread-1734.html)
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - independent - 08-17-2008
Lenus Wrote:every balck sport you bring for US, will be covered by 10 for Russia. Trust me.
Here is a short list of US invasions (some 160) of them after WWII:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa02.html">http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa02.html</a><!-- m -->
Beeing pro-american is not beeing pro-european. There is a big diiference.
My point - It is not enough to know Your enemy - You really must know Your ally as well...
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Lenus - 08-17-2008
Vittorio1964 Wrote:To Lenus
Your expression "a shoe polisher" is excelent to name American ally. Nothing to add. But still I insist that Bad Russia the only real opponent to America. All other "SuperPowers" already polish US shoes. And only US will decide who is good and who is bad. Are you sure they will never make a mistake? And if they do who will say them about it? Shoe polishers? I am not sure ;-)
I beg to defer,
Shoe polishing can be called every ally. You ask me about Russias Allies (Kazakhstan, Abkhiazia, Sout Ossetia, other...)
Do you honestly believe Russia is going to oppose US and EU on serious matters ?
The Georgian Case was the ONLY demarch of Russians since USSR breaking up.
Dont be fooled by Russian Rhetorics, they polish US Shoes much Harder then EU. However, for us, the Russia's Neighbours, the sooner this Spectacle of Rivalry ends the better.
There was a very nice remark yeasterday on CNN - Russia is not a WOrld Power anymore, its only pretending to be it.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - independent - 08-17-2008
Lenus Wrote:There was a very nice remark yeasterday on CNN - Russia is not a WOrld Power anymore, its only pretending to be it.
Lenus, brief me: Do You really believe that ?
If answer is Yes, then please read New York Times article (published also yesterday):
Military Analysis:
Russians Melded Old-School Blitz With Modern Military Tactics
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/17/world/europe/17military.html">http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/17/world ... itary.html</a><!-- m -->
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Vittorio1964 - 08-17-2008
To Lenus
I hope the case with Georgia was not only the ONLY demarch of Russia, but also was the FIRST and especially NOT THE LAST one. Because I do not definitely like to live in the world with the only "CNN" source of information
Go Russia, Go!!!
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Lenus - 08-17-2008
independent Wrote:Lenus Wrote:There was a very nice remark yeasterday on CNN - Russia is not a WOrld Power anymore, its only pretending to be it.
Lenus, brief me: Do You really believe that ?
If answer is Yes, then please read New York Times article (published also yesterday):
Military Analysis:
Russians Melded Old-School Blitz With Modern Military Tactics
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/17/world/europe/17military.html">http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/17/world ... itary.html</a><!-- m -->
Yes, I read the article.
I am not stating Russia is not a sigificant MIlitary power, But a world power takes more than ability to crinch Georgia in a week's time. You could have seen there are some serious defects in Russian Army.
I still don't understand how on earth could they Lose Tu-22 (3)...
I am sorry, I stil believe Russia is still not a world power anymore.
In Hypothetical situation, If same would have happened wth Ukraine... despaite some boasting here by certain members, I am not sure if Russia has a overwhelming advantage, even a military one.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Lenus - 08-17-2008
Vittorio1964 Wrote:To Lenus
I hope the case with Georgia was not only the ONLY demarch of Russia, but also was the FIRST and especially NOT THE LAST one. Because I do not definitely like to live in the world with the only "CNN" source of information
Go Russia, Go!!!
If it was the FIRST, its the ONLY one so far isn't it?
Russian TV is 1000 times worse than CNN. I speak Russian too and I can say that with certainty,
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Lenus - 08-17-2008
independent Wrote:Lenus Wrote:every balck sport you bring for US, will be covered by 10 for Russia. Trust me.
Here is a short list of US invasions (some 160) of them after WWII:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa02.html">http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa02.html</a><!-- m -->
Beeing pro-american is not beeing pro-european. There is a big diiference.
My point - It is not enough to know Your enemy - You really must know Your ally as well...
That list depicts some financial aids to allies.
Believe me in every ocasion the other side would have been sponsoreed by money or military aid by USSR-Russia.
I am sorry but I am not impressed.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Vittorio1964 - 08-17-2008
To Lenus
Yep!
But if there were only CNN and no "BAD Russian TV" how would you know THE TRUTH?
I AM SURE WE NEED BOTH OF THEM.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - independent - 08-17-2008
Lenus Wrote:That list depicts some financial aids to allies.
As well as military actions
Lenus Wrote:Believe me in every ocasion the other side would have been sponsoreed by money or military aid by USSR-Russia.
I am sorry but I am not impressed.
If You look the list - You can see that there has been only few conflicts in the world , where US is not a
part. I'm not saying USSR was not part of those conflicts. But that leaves us to situation where it is not
possible that they have been part of 10 times so many conflict...
So they are acting very much alike....
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Hakan G - 08-17-2008
Vittorio1964 Wrote:To Lenus
Yep!
But if there were only CNN and no "BAD Russian TV" how would you know THE TRUTH?
I AM SURE WE NEED BOTH OF THEM.
We don't need Russian TV to know the truth!
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Maria - 08-17-2008
to Lenus
Lenus Wrote:Dont be fooled by Russian Rhetorics, they polish US Shoes much Harder then EU.What do you know about current situation in our country? Are you living in Russia? Or maybe you have lots friends in Russia?
Russians will NEVER polish somebody's shoes, especially US Shoes!!! Most people in Russia hate american way of life, their miserable ideas. And they also hate traitors, who robed russian people in 90-th and ran to lick US Shoes.
We all glad that our president could stand against Washington opinion and defend Soutern Osetia interests.
If somebody doesn't know it 95% of Soutern Osetia population agreed for reunion with Russia long time ago before this awfull war!
P.S. Thank you, Vittorio1964!!! It's very pleased to know that not all europians against our country...
P.S.S. Sorry for the mistakes if in my post you'll find some of them
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Lenus - 08-17-2008
Maria Wrote:to Lenus
Lenus Wrote:Dont be fooled by Russian Rhetorics, they polish US Shoes much Harder then EU.What do you know about current situation in our country? Are you living in Russia? Or maybe you have lots friends in Russia?
Russians will NEVER polish somebody's shoes, especially US Shoes!!! Most people in Russia hate american way of life, their miserable ideas. And they also hate traitors, who robed russian people in 90-th and ran to lick US Shoes.
We all glad that our president could stand against Washington opinion and defend Soutern Osetia interests.
If somebody doesn't know it 95% of Soutern Osetia population agreed for reunion with Russia long time ago before this awfull war!
P.S. Thank you, Vittorio1964!!! It's very pleased to know that not all europians against our country...
P.S.S. Sorry for the mistakes if in my post you'll find some of them
Strange attitude.
Do I have to live in the coutrny to judge its political position?
In fact yes, I lived in your country, Called USSR, for 22 years. Don't ask
Factually, you stated exactly what I wanted to say: Its not about South Ossetia, Its not about Georgia, its about RUSSIA and USA>
So, Europeans don't comdemn Russia, because its against GWB, You adore your president because Its stands up to West, and Ossetians are only puppets ina global way, and Georgia is the only bad boy in the school.
there is a joke: The guy dies on the factory. Someone has to be fired. Can we fire his Boss? no, we need him. OK, let's fire the Accountant, as we dont like him anyway.
Georgia is in the role of that accountant.
I dont care what where why, just deal with your machoisms yourself, leave Georgia alone. US didn't tear any part of us, Russia, follow the example.
Thank you, End of story.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Lenus - 08-17-2008
independent Wrote:If You look the list - You can see that there has been only few conflicts in the world , where US is not a
part. I'm not saying USSR was not part of those conflicts. But that leaves us to situation where it is not
possible that they have been part of 10 times so many conflict...
So they are acting very much alike....
OK, I take every military intrusion to another country and I start with Russian equivalents. In roder to surpass it, I will start Russian campaigns starting from Ivan the Grozny, demolition of Kazan Kingdom, Lithuanians, Finns, Polish, Georgia, and western Georgia, Megrelia, Abkhazia, Guria, All Central Asian countries,
I am not covering in full teh Russian Crimean operations, Liberation of Serbia, Bulgaria, Russian-Turkish wars, Russian-Persian Wars, Great Caucasus War, lasting for year s and years, consisting of many military operations eand aboplishing small nations independence one after another. btw, Abkhazians still have shrivell remembering Mojahir period - all of them were either shot dead or expelled to Turkey,.
Russian Revolution, and all these countries were invaded or enslaved again - USSR, Ukraine, Belorussia, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Georgia, Central Asia.
Eastern Europe during and after WW2 - Baltic countries, Finland, Poland, Bulgaria, Checz, Slovakia, etc etc. Half of Germany, Korean war, Chinese military operations, Vietnam, Laos, Chile, Venesuela, Iran revolution...
Oppressing any uprisings: Hungary, Czechoslovakia 1968, Russia numerous times, Georgia 1956, Cuba, AFganistan, again Georgia 1989, Azebaijan 1990, Lithuania, Moscow Coup 1993, and many many other occasions.
Believ me this list was done woithout proper preparation, just off the top of my head.
If I have to create the appropriate list, believe me, its gonna raise few eyebrows even in Europe, never mind America.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Levor - 08-17-2008
It seems to be russia
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Eka - 08-17-2008
I am here and belive me i know who started this war. ony alcoholic russians can do this. Our goverment was on vacations, president was on vacations,Georgia was full with vacationing people all around region and do you think that Georgia has done this? now of course!!!
We are gald to see intenational exsperts and investigate everithing and whats russians? Our officials are asking every one to come and see everithing. But russians they let to enter conflict zon only jouranlists they are fully trasting aand even only with russian pasports, only today they let our jornalists for 2 hours to enter Gori and your paranoic Ivanonv is hesitaiting to answer is they eager to do same!! it can meen that russians have something to hide.!!!! I know , for many ears I was as many russians at tihs period blind with your propaganda about awfull West and kind Russia and USSR.
Russians started this conflict and will be panished for this . your oficials when talking on CNN and BBC are looking not like winers but like loosers, They are understanding that they loos.
It for you West is awfull, but there childrens are already in British schools and wifes on Champs Elisees, so you naiv russians are at this moment brainwahsed and thous group of your country corupted officials are quite happy with west." Bush is bad Europe is bad" :-) :-) :-) and Russians stile of life is good? They are laing you, there propaganda is laing and remeber:Never, never Georgian troops killed osetians civilians I am 100% sure and this will be oficaliy stated by int. exsperts, but I know and have seen in reality not in your Russian TV shows, killed and wounded georgian 3-6 years children.
you russians came to Georgia and are washing osetians and abxazians brains - only Georgians can protect there language, ethnicity and culture. You Russians are swallowing everything small and important as your draunken general Borisov and poor solgers from sibirian orphanages. SO this ethnic groups will eb shortly after eliminted by you as you are doing it at this moment there.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Eka - 08-17-2008
independent Wrote:There was a poll about that in CNN - somebody claimed that there wasStrange , very strange!
some 300'000 answers and result was that 92% believe it was Georgia itself.
I tried to check result from CNN but it was not going anymore - so this is only secondhand
information. If anyone knows how to find old poll results from CNN please inform.
I ask many people but no one proof this information and we here are watching cnn very carefully, so I think it is propaganda too.
Who asked you to do this?
As we have tipe of gossipe here Putin call his corapted gavermant officials adn pocket-oligarxs and gave and order spend millions but we mast ween in information and internet war. so maybe.....
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Tamara_Georgia Girl - 08-17-2008
we have almost 100 000 ossetians all around georgia but why don't we kill them??? only 50 000 were in ossetia and they were evacuated week before war.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Lenus - 08-17-2008
Maria Wrote:Russians will NEVER polish somebody's shoes, especially US Shoes!!! Most people in Russia hate american way of life, their miserable ideas. And they also hate traitors, who robed russian people in 90-th and ran to lick US Shoes.
It truly deserves the separate Topic, but I must ask:
If you think your government is so independet of USA, why do you think Medvedev is pulling its Troops from Georgia now?
AMerican way of life and miserable ideas? Please describe, what exactly do you hate?
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Eka - 08-17-2008
Lenus Wrote:Russians does not love when someone understands that they are alcoholic orda of noneducated,less human beengs.There power is only in there big number, but there is so easy to change mind of less educated alcoholics with propaganda.So your goverment is trying to protect you from " influance" of western democrty as Brejnev abd Andropov deed and you are happy. you know there were big debaets in Georgian society about " two Russians" - wild, alcolholic and hungry, which kills Nikolas II and his family and intelegent educated - Bunins and Chexovs Russia and finaly we came to conclusion there is only one 1 Russia - which killed NIkolas II and starts chaos in world. Second Russia was not and is not representing your real soul and your nations mission. And now Putin becames your messia - dengerous person with compexss and poor education.Maria Wrote:Russians will NEVER polish somebody's shoes, especially US Shoes!!! Most people in Russia hate american way of life, their miserable ideas. And they also hate traitors, who robed russian people in 90-th and ran to lick US Shoes.
It truly deserves the separate Topic, but I must ask:
If you think your government is so independet of USA, why do you think Medvedev is pulling its Troops from Georgia now?
AMerican way of life and miserable ideas? Please describe, what exactly do you hate?
So really what you dont like in them?
Please arguments and facts only!!!
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - russkoe_pole - 08-17-2008
This is truth:
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Russians don`t drink so much. Less than many other nations.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Eka - 08-17-2008
To russian fild -
propganda of clear water.but what was really were interesting that you said:Его сбил лично генерал Баранкевич, секретарь совета безопасности Южной Осетии.Why in Georgia - independant country russian nekto Баранкевич is secretary of something military.
Everythind will be calrified in Haagua!!!
But as I know Russia is not ratified the documents and can not apply to Haagua but Georiga have done it and you know way? bacause we are sure that we NEVER, NEVER< NEVER,do nothing to hide from world and your goverment understands that they have to hide. So Maybe putin and your little boy-puppet Medvedev will be soon observed in Haagua?
We have so many mateials about war crimes and they are gatheres in presance of int. exsperts, that they are fully satisfactory for Haagua and Russians let noone to enter the so coled S. Osethia so your materials are not true and are not realiable for the world.
YOU now FILD i REALLY ARE SORRY FOR RUSSIANS FOR SUCH BRAIN WASHING SITUATION THEY FEEL IN, BUT BE PATIENT SOON EVRYTHING BE CLEAR AND YUO WILL FEEL WHAT IS BE REALLY FREE AND NORMAL MEMBER OF INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY, THIS TIME WILL COME SOON.AND I AM SURE YOU WILL FEEL YOURSELF NOT VERY COMFORTABLE WITH YOUR PAST IDEAS. AND REMEMBER FOR EVERYONE!!!!!! GEORGIANS ARE NOT KILLING CHILDREN, WOMEN, AND CIVILIANS, NEVER,NEVER, NEVER. AND RUSSIANS HAVE DONE IT MANY TIME - REMEBER BESLAN, EXPOLZIANS IN MOSCOW AND SO ON.....
THEY DRINK EVEN COLOGNE AND PARFUME WHEN THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DRINK..
EVEN LILIPUTIN WAS VERY SORRY ABOUT IT AND ORDERED HIS GOVERMENT NTO DO SOMETHING WITH THIS "DIZASTER" FEW MONTH AGO, BUT AS STATISTICS TELL US ALCOHOLIZM WILL DESTROY RUSSIAN NATION IN 15-20 YEARS COMPLITLY.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - SiD - 08-17-2008
Lenus Wrote:Maria wrote:
Russians will NEVER polish somebody's shoes, especially US Shoes!!! Most people in Russia hate american way of life, their miserable ideas. And they also hate traitors, who robed russian people in 90-th and ran to lick US Shoes.
It truly deserves the separate Topic, but I must ask:
If you think your government is so independet of USA, why do you think Medvedev is pulling its Troops from Georgia now?
AMerican way of life and miserable ideas? Please describe, what exactly do you hate?
Well if you think that Russia is so dependent than you do not want to know how independent Georgia is.
Medvedev is pulling troops from Georgia becouse they are not needed ther. Conflict zone is secured (even some part of Georgia was), Georgian military are not resisting and cease fire is signed. As it was promised Georgia is not occupied. Why should he keep army ther?
Well if Georgia wanted to be left alone why did they involved themselves into global politics? Yah well i can try to guess it is becouse of bad russians. Sometimes Neutrality is best defense.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Steven - 08-18-2008
Medvedev kept his word. He said from the very beginning that the purpose of attacking Georgia was to ensure security to their peacemaking forces. The troops are now calling back.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Lenus - 08-18-2008
Steven Wrote:Medvedev kept his word. He said from the very beginning that the purpose of attacking Georgia was to ensure security to their peacemaking forces. The troops are now calling back.
Thats clear, but these are words, what about the wider picture?
I was refering to my expression that Russia is not a World Power anymore. And this pulling out indicates it really isnt.
If in Afganistan Soviets withdrew by its own will, here Russians were TOLD to get out. And this is quite a significant feature of the current political pattern.
SiD,
When and indeed if you compare US action's in IRAQ to what you are doing in Georgia, you must accept, that Russia cannot be the same level independent in its actions, as US is.
As to Georgia - we dont feed ourselves with illusions that we can be independent especially in Military sense of the word. This is why we are trying to be members to International Bodies, such is NATO, EU, etc.
In such case, Georgia's all human and financial recources can be focused on developing our nation in peaceful terms for many generations.
This is our goal.
Re: Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia? - Mariam - 08-18-2008
I don;t care who started the war, The reality is horrible. See it and sorry.
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