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Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Tajik-Guy - 01-12-2009
Dear all i see you need a Joke to relax and get funny: Today UN Security Council accepted and approved a Ukrainian Prosident's Request to change its country's name from Ukraina (means "Suburb place or Okraina" in Russian) to Ukradina ( means "thieved" in Russian).
Everybody happy???
Last winter we had -20 C here in Tajikistan. There was gas and electrisity severe limits (4 hours per day and night). It is amazing but we survived, so stay optimistic, Europe! As said, troubles make us stronger!
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Rody - 01-12-2009
Not for the first time Europe becomes the distinctive hostage of gas dispute, remembering the situation in January, 2006. Then very many people in EU have taken the side of Ukraine, at least, having agreed with argument according attempt of use of gas for political pressure of Moscow upon Kiev. For the present moment in EU a point of view over the attempt of the Russian Federation to revenge Ukraine for providing support to Georgia in August of the past year exists.
Now to the Ukrainian gas-transport system the gas intended for Europe arrives in extremely small volumes, or does not arrive at all. In accordance with the statements of both parties it is practically impossible to understand accurately who has made decision to block this gas - Russia or Ukraine. And the European point of view, on a large scale, in the current moment the main problem is not on of the reason of a fault of arriving gas, but the fact of its absence. Especially it concerns the countries of southeast and central Europe which remained in general without gas. They aspire whenever possible faster resolution of dispute between Ukraine and Russia.
The Ukrainian gas-transport system is the integral component of system of energy safety maintenance of EU.
The gas-transport system of Ukraine (GTS) includes 37,6 thousand km of gas pipelines of different function and productivity, 73 compressor stations with automatic compressor shops where it is established 703 units for gas transition by the general capacity of 5,4 thousand Мwt, 1607 gas-distributing stations, 13 underground storehouses of gas with the general spaciousness on active gas over 32,0 billion cubic m and objects of an infrastructure. On "input" GTS is capable to accept in 290 billion cubic m, and on "exit" to transfer 175 billion cubic m of natural gas, including 140 billion cubic m to the countries of the Western and Central Europe. Maintenance of consumers with natural gas is carried out by gas networks pressure to 1,2 Mpa which length makes close to 287 thousand in km. A necessary mode of gas supply in these networks provide about 51 thousand gas-regulating stations (GRS). Considering terms of operation of gas pipelines and their technical condition, for maintenance of reliable and effective functioning till 2015 it is planned to finish reconstruction of all compressor stations completely. Till 2030 it is provided modernization and technical re-equipment of gas-transport system with use of the most modern and effective technologies should be finished by then. It is planned to finish congestion GTS to design indicators and increase in its transit capacities at 30-35 billion cubic m of gas a year at the expense of building new stations.
Thus, the Ukrainian gas-transport system is an integral part of the gas market of Europe and always it will. Hence, the European Commission wishes to see Ukraine completely integrated into the power market of the European Union. It is a question of it and in the communiqué of European Commission for the Council of EU and for the European Parliament concerning “Eastern partnership” which confirms confidence of Europe of the important role of Ukraine in the process of maintenance of energy safety of Europe. Strengthening of support of full integration of the energy market of Ukraine to the EU’s market will be provided at the expense of the priorities allocated with European Commission from modernization of the Ukrainian gas-transport and petro-transport system, including improvement of system of monitoring behind oil and gas transportation. During the consultation process concerning cooperation deepening between Ukraine and the European Union which took place on December, 3-5 in Bruxelles, EU were confirmed with the intention on practical support of initiatives of Ukraine directed on increase of reliability and safety of deliveries and transit of gas and oil using the Ukrainian infrastructure.
It is impossible to deny the fact, that over a total period of export and transit deliveries of gas, mentioned period exceeds half-centuries, the Ukrainian gas-transport system has never given failure, and for the sake of the further increase of reliability of gas-transport system of Ukraine the program of its reconstruction and modernization which, in particular, provides replacement of units of swapping of gas, diagnostics and repair of a linear part of gas pipelines is realized; building of new pipelines, introduction of the European standards of operation, application of energy-efficient technologies, decrease in negative influence on environment.
On purpose in the future of preventing harm to energy safety to Europe it is necessary to create commission, which will carry out monitoring of receipt of gas in a gas pipeline to be convinced, whether gas or not which as Russia confirms, were misappropriated by Ukraine though it was impossible to assume, is delivered actually, considering a number of the obvious facts.
If both parties have agreed on such monitoring, it would help with the conflict decision. It would be possible to make active some positions of the European power Charter which Ukraine, unlike Russia, ratified.
In Bruxelles the Charter secretary has received from Ukraine guarantees of uninterrupted transit of gas to Europe. Now Ukraine declares, that it simply HAS nothing to transport to Europe. All control points which are responsible for the termination of supply of the Russian gas for the European consumers through territory of Ukraine, are situated in the territory of the Russian Federation. All responsibility for their work lays exclusively on Open Stock Company “Gazprom”. Therefore also independent monitoring is necessary.
Pricing on gas for Russia is the very delicate point, taking into consideration losses of the country against falling of the prices for energy carriers. Ukraine, for its part, also strongly suffered from crisis, and in general always had problems with payment of import of the gas which huge volumes consumes. At the same time birches of races of the prices for gas delivery (to 418 dollars for 1000 cubic metre) conducts only to blasting of economy of the consumer which in turn will negatively be displayed on bilateral economic relations of the next states which have powerful mutually advantageous trade barter.
Therefore, it is necessary to continue at EU support negotiations between the Russian Federation and Ukraine and as a variant, to develop the stage-by-stage plan about creation of the prices for the energy carriers considering all factors, including expenses for transit on territory of Ukraine.
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - SiD - 01-12-2009
Max Wrote:Perfect and convincing explanation of economical pressure. This is real Russian business language and style. OK. PAY our today’s 10$ of transit. Do not like price? Go end build Nordstream through aggressive Estonia and Poland waters.
Oh you can be sure that it will be better to transport gas trough anywere but not trough Ukraine. Price was negotieted before wasnt it? Of course "independent" Ukranian court was tasked to change that.
Max Wrote:Which obligations? Our transit work now is only good office regarding EU. At the moment there are not valid documents and contracts between Russia and Ukraine. There are few controversial agreement of 2003, 2006 and 2007 years which directly contradict each other. Russia refused to sign annual protocols which determine conditions, volumes, customs-tariff and regimes. Without this protocol Russian gas in Ukraine is only contraband.
Ukrainian court prohibited the transportation of gas for 1.6$, new contract is not signed so we actually have not any obligations regarding Russia. Russia is empty sound here. If we still pump the gas through the Ukraine only due to our good will.
Moreover Ukraine gives our own 2 millions of square meters of gas for Moldova and Bulgaria to prevent humanitarian catastrophe which may occur there because of “defective managers”.
The only empty sound here is voice of Yushenko, or hasnt he promised that supplies of gas wont stop? And intersting how would people in cold houses appreciete your good will?
You are generous no doubt giving gas to Moldova, since it is stolen anyway, easy come easy gone isnt it?
Anyway all negotiations were sabotaged by ukrainian side and recent efforts of EU either, or you think it was SOOOO smart to add something to the document? Quite obvius who is sabotaging all efforts to resume supplies of gas.
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - LittleVenice - 01-12-2009
WOW...Just got to know that gas from Ukraine comes to Romania & Bulgaria via Moldova where 100% of the pipelines and gas company itself belongs to.... Russian Gazprom....
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Fukuyama - 01-12-2009
Just more Yuschenko, Temoschenko and Sakishvilli in the world, then so called democracy will kill us exactly :banghead . Bushism :ange is unbreakable, aint it, Max?
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Rooby - 01-12-2009
Last Bush's offer to Europe nations is:
Would you like to die from Ukrainian-made Georgian Gradd Missile shots or by freezing when gas is thieved by US friends?
What's your choice???? ah, George has said, i knew it, yes you prefer to die after Anti-Missle Shield installed in Europe. I can't just imagine how much territory we'll have for new US states. :mrgreen:
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Guest - 01-12-2009
Fukuyama Wrote:Just more Yuschenko, Temoschenko and Sakishvilli in the world, then so called democracy will kill us exactly :banghead . Bushism :ange is unbreakable, aint it, Max?
In Russia democracy is called "shit-ocracy" (dermocratia)....If so...imagine what rule\regime Russia got itself!
Democracy, human rights and law is nothing in Russia and never had any respect ...we all known that...
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Max - 01-12-2009
Rody Wrote:The Ukrainian gas-transport system is the integral component of system of energy safety maintenance of EU.
I completely agree. The sense of this gas war is Russia wan’t get control over Ukrainian GTS (gas-transport system) and so to monopolize supply to EU. At the moment 80% of Russain export goes through Ukraine and there are not essential alternatives.
SiD Wrote:Price was negotieted before wasnt it? Of course "independent" Ukranian court was tasked to change that.
Price for transit of 1.6$ was negotiated for price of gas of 50$. This was original agreement made in 2003 but it was illegally broke by Russia in 2006 at times of first gas war. Russia already broke this agreement because Russian officials constantly mix documents and toilet paper. Why we can’t broke it in 2009 since it is complete economical absurd when price destined for 50$ is applied to 450$?
The situation now is following. Gazprom and EU have agreements of supply which Gazprom broke once again in one-sided order. However Gazproms has not valid contracts with Naftogas about the transition. Transition of Russian gas through Ukraine is illegal now.
For example we still have not price for 2009. Even if it existed money for transition should be paid in advance. Ukraine didn’t get money for 2009 and we pumped to EU 1.5 billions of square meters since beginning of year. This service wasn’t paid so we have not reasons to transport anything at all.
SiD Wrote:You are generous no doubt giving gas to Moldova, since it is stolen anyway, easy come easy gone isnt it?
Ukraine paid for all gas it has in stores besides we have our own producing. Gas taken away from pipes was “technological” this means it was automatically burned in compressors to drive “commercial” gas.
SiD Wrote:Quite obvius who is sabotaging all efforts to resume supplies of gas.
Yes it’s obvious. EU experts now are working in Ukraine but Russia puts monstrous efforts to not allow them inspection of own GTS.
Fukuyama Wrote:Just more Yuschenko, Temoschenko and Sakishvilli in the world, then so called democracy will kill us exactly .
Democracy will exectly kill you but not us.
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Fukuyama - 01-12-2009
Strange but no russian here has condemned Putin for anything. it seems he's doing great for russia ;-)
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Guest - 01-12-2009
doner
Rooby Wrote:Last Bush's offer to Europe nations is:
Would you like to die from Ukrainian-made Georgian Gradd Missile shots or by freezing when gas is thieved by US friends?
What's your choice???? ah, George has said, i knew it, yes you prefer to die after Anti-Missle Shield installed in Europe. I can't just imagine how much territory we'll have for new US states. :mrgreen:
Very funny....Yeah?
Ukraine is a peacefull and hardworking nation and is not threatening anybody....
We can't say the same about Russia... 10 years ago it was Latvia, Estinia, Lithuania, Poland etc...Yesterday Georgia...Now Ukraine...
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Sadam - 01-12-2009
So called Max is recruited by Ukrainian Government as a member of IT propaganda team - simple as that. As he blows no facts but his fantasies
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Londoner - 01-12-2009
Fukuyama Wrote:Strange but no russian here has condemned Putin for anything. it seems he's doing great for russia ;-)
Nobody in Germany was condeming Hitler...before he went to hell...
Nobody in USSR was condeming Stalin ..before he went to hell...
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Gas supplier - 01-12-2009
Sadam Wrote:So called Max is recruited by Ukrainian Government as a member of IT propaganda team - simple as that. As he blows no facts but his fantasies
Well..but Russians say Ukraine has no money....So how it can be....? :-P
Alternatively Russian seciruty service FSB\KGB (former Putin's office) is know to actively particpating in web dscussions and forums ...and Russia has funds for that!
lurp
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Russland - 01-12-2009
Aha most of you condemn Russia for old Soviet sins. Strange as looks like Soviet leaders of 1920s up to 70s are still in power in Kremlin. ha ha ha ha ha
There are no ghosts! heeellloooooo!
New times have come and new people in power in Russia!
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Idea - 01-12-2009
yes I know how Ukraine is earning money!!! Ha ha ha ha
ukrainian gavernment thought a lot where to get money from while drinking Horilka (their vodka) eating salted smoked pig's fat. then Yuschenko shouted chewingly: I ve found the brilliant way! The best we shall do is to sell our women to westerners and gringos!!!!!!!!!!! We have to much of female population for internal consumption ha ha ha ha
look at advertising "Odessa Darlings". Odessa - southern Ukrainian city.
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Max - 01-12-2009
Sadam Wrote:So called Max is recruited by Ukrainian Government
Sadam, didn't Americans hung you? I though you should be in your Islamic paradise already. :-)
I have no relation to any governments, I'm private person. At first of January I turned on Russian Hoebbels TV through my satellite dish and all my holidays were broke because of this ugly gas show they performed. That's why I'm here.
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - SiD - 01-12-2009
Max if EU is putting such "monstrous" efforts to solve conflict why Ukraine is sabotaging it? Final text of agreement was SIGNED in Moscow but it was made invalid in Kiev becouse they desided to add thier "thoughts" or fantasies or whanever. Need more time to prepare spectacle, or still havent hiden all proofs of theft? Coment that please if Ukrain is so willing to solve the matter what happened than?
But hopes of Ukrain are obvius, they hope to play victim becouse why shouldnt europe believe thier pet country that is singing praises to them with any occasion?
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Sadam - 01-12-2009
Aaahh
Now it is clear
you're one of those from States
So called Max is recruited by George W Bush Junior . pity news for you friend, your administration finishes withing 10 day. Did u start to look for a new job. Aha my advice, call Tbilisi White House.. sorry Saakashvili's Presidental Administration. they need you. You won't be alone there as lots of your co-country men are based there already. Ahh forgot there are military men, i hope you find the common interests with them. e.g. how to post 100 anti-russian topics withing a minute ))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Max - 01-12-2009
SiD Wrote:Max if EU is putting such "monstrous" efforts to solve conflict why Ukraine is sabotaging it?
I heard another story. Ukraine signed common document without changes but added overall statement about own political position. This was allowed by EU officials. It doesn’t change the core protocols these are only Ukrainian comment.
On the whole the story with monitoring of Ukraine is so ridiculous. The representatives of Gazprom already work on every compressor station in Ukraine. Yes! Gazprom people work in Ukrainian GTS all time accordingly to contracts.
For example the transport station on the Ukraine-Poland border there two people from Polish corporation and two people from Gazprom. This is usual situation.
EU experts were invited by Tymoshenko personally.
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - SiD - 01-12-2009
Max Wrote:I heard another story. Ukraine signed common document without changes but added overall statement about own political position. This was allowed by EU officials. It doesn’t change the core protocols these are only Ukrainian comment.
As i heared another story either, but it is obvius that to add something to the document already signed by other side is untorable. EU officials care only for gas to start flowing not for interests of Russia so i do not care if they allowed anything, it must be allowed by our government.
Anyway iv seen in news that protocol finally was signed by all sides and monitoring will start. So we need just to wait for results dont we? Interesting wont our "contraband" disapear this time?
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Max - 01-12-2009
SiD Wrote:Interesting wont our "contraband" disapear this time?
Your contraband will dissapear soon quite legally. Due to Russia condidtions the transit of its gas is not economically attractive for Ukraine. What we do is only charity and duty regarding nations of EU.
When they'll buid Nabucco and find other sources we will stop this transition as useless burden. I believe this will mean the end of your carbon empire.
Re: Ukraina is a terrorist state? - liliputana - 01-12-2009
Transnistria is a Russian enclave between Moldova and Ukraine, but the Russian gas didn't pas from Ukraine to Transnistria and Moldova... :banghead
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - Pete - 01-12-2009
Max Wrote:I believe this will mean the end of your carbon empire.... and then The Great Orange State of Ukraine will rise, right? Oh sorry, I forgot that it's already on the peak of its success, having attention and sympathy of all "progressive" western (UK and US+sattelites mainly) people for its struggle against wild asian barbaric hordes of Russia. Not to mention that it already has perfectly tuned and working political system with prominent leaders who are saviors and protectors of the nation, fair and honest business elites (no oligarchs and "shadow puppeteers" - it's russian-only way to do bussines!), prospering economy, and wise rule of government, caring only about good of its people. Damn, how dare they, evil plotting bloody tyrant of all mankind Putin and his puppet-corporation "headed by the brother of acting president Medvedev" (© some "independent" western media) accuse your exemplary democratic state of something like billing debts, state-racket and (ugh, disgusting) gas theft. Carpet tongues for sure!
What a typical discussion, anyway :S Not even a discussion, but assay contest on the topic "Why Russia is to blame in all world's troubles again and again". Yeah, we love you too <3
As our prime-minister noted, since the active gas-transit contract is subject of swedish law, hence the task (and duty) of Stockholm arbitration court to decide who was right and who was wrong in this ugly conflict (Gazprom is going to present claims or already did it), so let the sides to collect necessary proofs and evidences (if we are talking about some illegal actions) and hope for justice to be done, shall we? Aside from mutual complaints, situation with transit is almost solved by now, as I hope.
Fukuyama Wrote:Strange but no russian here has condemned Putin for anything. it seems he's doing great for russia ;-)Putin is neither saint nor great democrate. He makes mistakes or bad moves from time to time, as any other man. However he was the best ruler Russia had for last century, and I personally think he saved Russia from collapse from hands of power-hungry federal subjects' governors and enormously greedy oligarchs like the one UK is hiding from justice for past ten+ years (some who are still staying around deserve as much, but at least they weren't for destroying Russia's political system and head power). He's not that bad on his current position either. Crisis and stuff, true, but well, tough times for everyone nowadays, not just for us. However I wouldn't want him to return as next president, we have to advance, not to hold on the past, we need new active politic figures with strong will to resist non-stopping mud-throwing and pressure from the West and to keep our own line.
P.S. I live in Russia, I work in federal state company (not FSB (heir of KGB, sic!) though, for better or for worse). Do you think we have no freedom and are totally dumbassed by propaganda? I do not. On contrary, it often seems to me that Anglo-Saxon media serve as much better brainwashing tool than funny and harmless russian tv/press.
P.P.S. Oh, and dear Olaf, I so support you on your righteous mission to tell the world how evil Putin robbed poor helpless native-siberians from resources, but since he's such complete KGB villian, this won't help much. That's why I suggest you to try and convince white-dressed great democratic country of USA to hand over all their stolen resources (and lands) back to native americans and mexicans. I bet, they will hear you, won't they? The Last Beacon of Hope for the Humanity can't ignore your just plea!
Hail to norsk bretheren anyway, meet you in Valhalla soon :3
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - manro1 - 01-13-2009
russian999 Wrote:manro1 Wrote:Hey lets keep this discussion going. Where are you Russian999??
Give as what good did this conflict broght to russia?And why is your little putin sooooo smart?
First of all - I am not Putin fanat. I lived in the USA long enought to see - what kind of government should be.
But, I am realist! In politik most important is power. All this "democratic" staff you can use for internal relations within country. But, in international affairs most important power. So, Putin is doing, what he want. He gave blow to Georgia and USA. Many was screaming - that is russians end. But look - does russia came to the end?
Same with Ukraine! Now you screaming - Russia lost! But see - Russia allready put down Ukraine with transit monitor. But Ukraine still did not get gas for 201 $.Putin is very smart, but immoral. If Yushenko and Ukraine could be less smart, but more moral and responsible - I was first to go to fight against Putin and Gasprom. But for now Yushenko is just piece of sh.t.
Now I understand. You live in USA. I live in Russia. Ukraine is important to us, I am not so sure that after this conflict Liliputin won any hearts in Ukraune. Now Ukraine has solid reason no join EU rather than Russia.
You say he will put Ukraine on "its knees" that is some brotherly love. Because of assholes like Him we dont live in great contry used to be called USSR. I dont think He is very smart at all ,-powerfull yes. We have to pick our fights. What was that bull shit about forsing Ukraine to speak Russian? There are a lot of Ukrainians living in Russia, but no one demends Ukrainian languge to be the second official.
Now this gas garbage that shoul of been solved without involving EU. For some reason you think observers in Ukraine is awin for us Russians. How? Gasprom had observers on every pumping station In Ukraine, but observers in Russia is a bad thing for russians because they will be representing Europe not Gasprom.
Re: Does anybody care about Russia-Ukraine gas conflict? - manro1 - 01-13-2009
Pete Wrote:Not true I am Russian and I think Putin "shit the bed "here.Max Wrote:I believe this will mean the end of your carbon empire.... and then The Great Orange State of Ukraine will rise, right?
I bet you would like it to be just a state , but it is independent country now.
As our prime-minister noted, since the active gas-transit contract is subject of swedish law, hence the task (and duty) of Stockholm arbitration court to decide who was right and who was wrong in this ugly conflict.
You think this is an ugly conflict!???? wait untill is time to re-new lease of Sevastopol port, I bet after this gas garbage Ukraine is realy going to like the idea of our ships be in their country (not state :-P )
Fukuyama Wrote:Strange but no russian here has condemned Putin for anything. it seems he's doing great for russia ;-)