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+--- Thread: Should the Ukraine join NATO? (/thread-216.html)
Re: Should the Ukraine join NATO? - Lor - 08-20-2008
SiD Wrote:Not everyone is entering EU trough NATO and knowing situation clever politics must make clever disigeons not make more mistakes. Do they need another problem? Parhaps EU has no more problems and can create new ones just becouse they are bored?
By the way you havent answered do you give anyone whanever he wishes? Answer please.
Answer to your question: Depends on what they're wishing, but i'll do my best to grant it, especially if it depends on me.
Please tell me what, who and WHY is there NATO??
Some Russians in Ukraine say NATO NET, but when you ask them what is NATO they just remain silent, they have no idea, they think is the enemy from the Soviet times!!! Pathetic!!!
For small and relatively poor countries NATO is the best decision! Especially if it gets Russia of your back!! No mistake here!!! Russia is the factor of SLOW progress in Georgia, Ukraine and Moldova.
Want an example? Romania chose NATO, EU. Romania's GDP is continuously growing for 8 years and middle class appeared plus unemployment is 50% lower than in Russia. Good infrastructure( it's developing)
Moldova couldn't unite with Romania( see Transnistria civil war, provoked by Russians), and stayed under Russian influence, outcome, Moldova is the poorest country in Europe. No middle class, high unemployment rate, NO infrastructure.All this could apply to Ukraine as well, only that Ukraine is not so poor, has more natural resources.
You wanna know why? Russia TAKES, TAKES and TAKES from the controlled countries. Who cares about infrastructure? Who cares about poverty?? JUST take and bring it to Moscow! Of course people in Russia don't see nothing wrong with it, because they get a piece of the pie.
EU SHARES, gives standards, investments and infrastructure to all its countries.
CAN you blame a country for wanting EU and not Russia?????????????????????
Re: Should the Ukraine join NATO? - k57alex - 08-20-2008
Why president of Ukraine what to join NATO when 90% of population is agains it!
I see only one reason - money and pushing from the USA side. USA is rapidly moving NATO to the East,
closer and closer to Russian border, seems they hope after that it will be easily to make Russia to do and act the way USA want. All that rose, orange revolutions in post sovietic republics are made with the
help of USA and their money.
Talking regarding democracy they move their expansion all over the world.
Ukrainans and Russians are one nation, hundred years of one history, thousands and thousands of mixed families. So, I beleave USA will fail in Ukraine , because of most of population is against that.
Usa tries to fight Russia by third countrie's hands, it's geopolitical war, since 19th century UK , France,
later USA are trying to remove Russia from Middle east and Caucasian region ( need oil, gas )
Iraq is a result of that oil war.
Re: Should the Ukraine join NATO? - Lor - 08-20-2008
k57alex Wrote:Why president of Ukraine what to join NATO when 90% of population is agains it! Recent polls show 50% is against it!!
I see only one reason - money and pushing from the USA side. USA is rapidly moving NATO(US doesn't mean NATO, please read about what NATO trully is and stop confusing US with NATO!!) to the East,
closer and closer to Russian border, seems they hope after that it will be easily to make Russia to do and act the way USA want. All that rose, orange revolutions in post sovietic republics are made with the
help of USA and their money. Thank God for those revolutions! People have at least some freedom after all!!!
Talking regarding democracy they move their expansion all over the world.
Ukrainans and Russians are one nation, go to Lvov and say that, see what happens. That's your problem, you ignore people's identity and culture on the pretext that you had history together!!! Ukrainians ARE Ukraininans no matter how badly you ignore it!! hundred years of one history, thousands and thousands of mixed families. Of course there are mixed families, Stalin MOVED lots of Russians in the area and killed millions of Ukrainians Golodomor genocide!!!So, I beleave USA will fail in Ukraine , because of most of population is against that. Against what? Everybody wants EU and try to understand is not US game, likr they teach you there in schools!! It's these countries wanting a good future, which they never had with Russia. Come to Ukraine and you'll see how these people live!!
Usa tries to fight Russia by third countrie's hands, it's geopolitical war, since 19th century UK , France,
later USA are trying to remove Russia from Middle east and Caucasian region ( need oil, gas )(gas doesn't belong to you!!! Russia uses other countries' gas! stepping on people's heads and spilling blood!!!
Iraq is a result of that oil war.What do you know about Iraq?
Tell me please why do you think that you can decide for Ukrainian people? They want West, because West offers a better life!!! What did Russia offer to Ukraine? Come and see!!!! Corruption, unemployment,poverty, rich get richer and poor get poorer!! Wake up is not Soviet times anymore!! You don't OWN theese republics, nor can you take advantage of them?!!! Not anymore!!!
Re: Should the Ukraine join NATO? - M.Helen - 08-20-2008
I can't say Russia offered Ukraine what it has today. It is the break up of the Soviet Union that brought Ukraine to the current condition. If the USSR hadn't broken up, Ukraine might have been much richer and prosperous than it is today.
Re: Should the Ukraine join NATO? - Frederic - 08-20-2008
M.Helen Wrote:I can't say Russia offered Ukraine what it has today. It is the break up of the Soviet Union that brought Ukraine to the current condition. If the USSR hadn't broken up, Ukraine might have been much richer and prosperous than it is today.Truly collapse of the Soviet was the Greatest Catastrophe of the 20th century. This is the words of Mr. Putin. Restoring of Soviet Union is the aim of today`s russia. Are you missing Gulag too much?
Re: Should the Ukraine join NATO? - M.Helen - 08-20-2008
I'm sorry Frederich, what is Gulag?
Re: Should the Ukraine join NATO? - SiD - 08-20-2008
Lor why do you speak about quality of life. MILITARY ALLIANCE do not mean middle class or growth of economy or improovment of life. Do you realy so blind???? They are INDEPENDENT so they can establish middle class or euro standarts or whanever they want without NATO. Do you realy see no way to do it without involving themselves in military alliance? Think a little harder please.
Have you ever heard about young people calling themselves KGBs or NKVDs??? It is not IDEOLOGY that were government institutes. But nazi it is ideology and it is REAL treat. Becouse nazi enjoing being respected are drawing young in thier ranks. Do you think it is no problem??? Even in Russia we have skinnheads and it is realy alarming for us. Now look to your little qute countries!!! Bastards are trying to fight with dead, monuments and old!!!! But you do not care becouse you tolerete any scum as long as it is your scum.
So quit it your arguments are weak. There are many small countryes prospering without NATO.
And being nighbor of Russia is nothing to do with it. How do you think we are slowing them? Actualy we supported them with cheap Gas and oil for decade. Wasnt it helping them to build economy? As i told they can build close relations with EU without entering NATO it depends only on EU. But if EU want to buy them your logick is complitely understandable.
Re: Should the Ukraine join NATO? - Frederic - 08-20-2008
M.Helen Wrote:I'm sorry Frederich, what is Gulag?Haven't you read Solzhenitsin? Russian literature worths to be read, unfortunately todays russian politicians and the part of russian society is not in compiance the ideals and values expressed in russian literature. Read Solzhenitsin and you will acknowlege the essence was Soviet empire, which is aimed to be restored now by Mr. putin.
Re: Should the Ukraine join NATO? - M.Helen - 08-20-2008
oh, here is what I found about Gulag
(formerly) the central administrative department of the Soviet security service, established in 1930, responsible for maintaining prisons and forced labour camps
Re: Should the Ukraine join NATO? - SiD - 08-20-2008
Frederic Wrote:You complitely misanderstood Putin!!!M.Helen Wrote:I'm sorry Frederich, what is Gulag?Haven't you read Solzhenitsin? Russian literature worths to be read, unfortunately todays russian politicians and the part of russian society is not in compiance the ideals and values expressed in russian literature. Read Solzhenitsin and you will acknowlege the essence was Soviet empire, which is aimed to be restored now by Mr. putin.
Do you know what was happening in Russia during 90s? Do you heard word "shock terapy". Read please and you will undestand. Did enyone counted people who died during reforms? Old people collected bottles just to survive. Many people recieved no money for thier work. They worked for months just to recieve some money.
To be criminal was realy prestigeus and it was almost proffession. In global politics we desolved into 3rd world country.
And all this after Soviet Union. Putin was speaking about this. We lost too much and recieved almost nothing.
That is why "Right" parties are not popular in Russia. They are still blamed for 90s by many people.
Re: Should the Ukraine join NATO? - Benn - 08-20-2008
Russia is too big in order to be controlled by a pure democratic way. If a little bit freedom is allowed, corruption will increase ten times faster.
Re: Should the Ukraine join NATO? - Frederic - 08-20-2008
SiD Wrote:Frederic Wrote:You complitely misanderstood Putin!!!M.Helen Wrote:I'm sorry Frederich, what is Gulag?Haven't you read Solzhenitsin? Russian literature worths to be read, unfortunately todays russian politicians and the part of russian society is not in compiance the ideals and values expressed in russian literature. Read Solzhenitsin and you will acknowlege the essence was Soviet empire, which is aimed to be restored now by Mr. putin.
Do you know what was happening in Russia during 90s? Do you heard word "shock terapy". Read please and you will undestand. Did enyone counted people who died during reforms? Old people collected bottles just to survive. Many people recieved no money for thier work. They worked for months just to recieve some money.
To be criminal was realy prestigeus and it was almost proffession. In global politics we desolved into 3rd world country.
And all this after Soviet Union. Putin was speaking about this. We lost too much and recieved almost nothing.
That is why "Right" parties are not popular in Russia. They are still blamed for 90s by many people.
I thought that in 90s Russia's was leaded by the people who subsequently brought Mr. Putin to power. So all the calims he can adress to them. All the post Soviet countries have undergone tough economical reforms, but most of them managed to built democratis societies. If being criminal was prestigous in Russia (and I think it still is, although these very people are now called tycoons) it does not mean that the collapse of the most bloody empire was the catastrophe. The catastrophe is the attempt to restore it.
Re: Should the Ukraine join NATO? - M.Helen - 08-20-2008
you are right Frederic. The former power, particularly the president Yeltsin, did brought Putin to the power. But, he was not like Yeltsin. He was young and full of energy and will to change the situation, which he actually managed.
Re: Should the Ukraine join NATO? - SiD - 08-20-2008
Frederic Wrote:I thought that in 90s Russia's was leaded by the people who subsequently brought Mr. Putin to power. So all the calims he can adress to them. All the post Soviet countries have undergone tough economical reforms, but most of them managed to built democratis societies. If being criminal was prestigous in Russia (and I think it still is, although these very people are now called tycoons) it does not mean that the collapse of the most bloody empire was the catastrophe. The catastrophe is the attempt to restore it.
If you see no difference between Putin and Yeltzin it realy your problem. For you parhaps it was collapse of bloody empire and couse for celebration but for Russian people it was real catastrophe. Parhaps whyle you celibrated fall of terrible empire some people were in complete dispair not knowing how to feed thier children, man who considered his life as good one became poor (almost beggar) and criminals were feasting during all those chaos. But it all doesnt matter now. Me personaly wenn i hear how good it was during SU become furius becouse if it was so good why didnt they protected thier country while it was falling??! While they havent tried to defend Soviet government?
It is all history anyway. And we are not restoring empire. No need for empire nowdays. Still it doesnt mean that we do not want to take proper place in the world. Nor we must forget about national security and national interests.
Re: Should the Ukraine join NATO? - Eka - 08-20-2008
SiD Wrote:SidFrederic Wrote:I thought that in 90s Russia's was leaded by the people who subsequently brought Mr. Putin to power. So all the calims he can adress to them. All the post Soviet countries have undergone tough economical reforms, but most of them managed to built democratis societies. If being criminal was prestigous in Russia (and I think it still is, although these very people are now called tycoons) it does not mean that the collapse of the most bloody empire was the catastrophe. The catastrophe is the attempt to restore it.
If you see no difference between Putin and Yeltzin it realy your problem. For you parhaps it was collapse of bloody empire and couse for celebration but for Russian people it was real catastrophe. Parhaps whyle you celibrated fall of terrible empire some people were in complete dispair not knowing how to feed thier children, man who considered his life as good one became poor (almost beggar) and criminals were feasting during all those chaos. But it all doesnt matter now. Me personaly wenn i hear how good it was during SU become furius becouse if it was so good why didnt they protected thier country while it was falling??! While they havent tried to defend Soviet government?
It is all history anyway. And we are not restoring empire. No need for empire nowdays. Still it doesnt mean that we do not want to take proper place in the world. Nor we must forget about national security and national interests.
Ussr will never return. It is in past. Putin can not be national hero of Russians only because you in cities are not hungry. Look what is going in your "glubinka" alkoholizm, powerty, bandits, corruption. Corruption is major issue for Russia dont you agree with me that your govermant is corruptes. It doesnot matter for me , but it hits your economy very seriosly. Look at prices on oil - if this crisis will go fornward ( I meen Russia versus whole world) prices will go down and world economy can do this . Russian economy is complitly based on oil prices go up and up. So maybe artificialy but your economy will be destroid,because your presidents have personal hate towrad Saakashvili? Because you dont respect another countries teritories? think way you need this? Ask questions not only blame Saakashvili and Ukraina in there wheel to be part of democratic world . Think a little bit about reasons of hunngry ears you have in Russia, we have same and even worth. YOu suppose that Putin drew your country out of this? OK But what about dissapeared millions in Leningrad during those hungry ears? He was accused in this? Way you are not asking this questions?
Re: Should the Ukraine join NATO? - SiD - 08-20-2008
Eka Wrote:SidNo one wants USSR again. I thought i made myself clear. I know how many problems Russia has, economical social, corruption and so on. I leave economics to specialists. But do not worry it is not dependent on Saakashvili. And world has MANY reasons not to do something that stupid. You can be as democratic as ancient greeks if you want but if you want join military alliance it is whole other thing.
Ussr will never return. It is in past. Putin can not be national hero of Russians only because you in cities are not hungry. Look what is going in your "glubinka" alkoholizm, powerty, bandits, corruption. Corruption is major issue for Russia dont you agree with me that your govermant is corruptes. It doesnot matter for me , but it hits your economy very seriosly. Look at prices on oil - if this crisis will go fornward ( I meen Russia versus whole world) prices will go down and world economy can do this . Russian economy is complitly based on oil prices go up and up. So maybe artificialy but your economy will be destroid,because your presidents have personal hate towrad Saakashvili? Because you dont respect another countries teritories? think way you need this? Ask questions not only blame Saakashvili and Ukraina in there wheel to be part of democratic world . Think a little bit about reasons of hunngry ears you have in Russia, we have same and even worth. YOu suppose that Putin drew your country out of this? OK But what about dissapeared millions in Leningrad during those hungry ears? He was accused in this? Way you are not asking this questions?
Re: Should the Ukraine join NATO? - Eka - 08-20-2008
SiD Wrote:Eka Wrote:SidNo one wants USSR again. I thought i made myself clear. I know how many problems Russia has, economical social, corruption and so on. I leave economics to specialists. But do not worry it is not dependent on Saakashvili. And world has MANY reasons not to do something that stupid. You can be as democratic as ancient greeks if you want but if you want join military alliance it is whole other thing.
Ussr will never return. It is in past. Putin can not be national hero of Russians only because you in cities are not hungry. Look what is going in your "glubinka" alkoholizm, powerty, bandits, corruption. Corruption is major issue for Russia dont you agree with me that your govermant is corruptes. It doesnot matter for me , but it hits your economy very seriosly. Look at prices on oil - if this crisis will go fornward ( I meen Russia versus whole world) prices will go down and world economy can do this . Russian economy is complitly based on oil prices go up and up. So maybe artificialy but your economy will be destroid,because your presidents have personal hate towrad Saakashvili? Because you dont respect another countries teritories? think way you need this? Ask questions not only blame Saakashvili and Ukraina in there wheel to be part of democratic world . Think a little bit about reasons of hunngry ears you have in Russia, we have same and even worth. YOu suppose that Putin drew your country out of this? OK But what about dissapeared millions in Leningrad during those hungry ears? He was accused in this? Way you are not asking this questions?
On Saakashvili thanks god your Economy does not depends,
but ISOLATION , you put yourself will bring this collapse ( dont you agree with me?).Greeks I dont sure but for us NATO is only thing to survive.
And who does this -Russia. Agree you push us there, especially after recent events. I f we have 70 % voted for NATO now it will be 100%.
Re: Should the Ukraine join NATO? - SiD - 08-20-2008
Eka Wrote:On Saakashvili thanks god your Economy does not depends,
Greeks I dont sure but for us NATO is only thing to survive.
And who does this -Russia. Agree you push us there, especially after recent events. I f we have 70 % voted for NATO now it will be 100%.
Do you know how world is concerned about North Corea? Now try to imagine how CONCERNED world would be about Russia in isolation, not to mention that europeans need our resourses almost as much as we need to sell those resources to them. So do not worry georgia is marginal problem comparing to real problems with Russia.
I spoke about Greece becouse democracy true democracy was born ther. You can be as free and democratic as you want and have close relations with west, not joining NATO and you would be just fine. Do not try to solve all your problems at someone other expanse.
Re: Should the Ukraine join NATO? - Sharak - 08-20-2008
People of the world! You deceive! World mass media conduct propagation of a false information. Russia DID NOT ATTACK Georgia! 07.08.2008 at 22:00 Georgia has attacked South Ossetia. At 3:30 08.08.2008 tanks of the Georgian armies have entered into city Tskhinvali. Artillery bombardment all the day long proceeded, fights with use of tanks and heavy combat material, both against ossetic armies, and against peace inhabitants were conducted. 2000 civil people already were lost. The Russian peacemakers have arrived to South Ossetia in the evening 08.08.2008 for settlement of the conflict and prompting of the world in republic and protection of the Russian citizens living on territory of South Ossetia. Georgia has attacked South Ossetia on eve of Olympiad, it is top of cruelty and cynicism. Proofs and video-materials look on : <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.1tvrus.com">http://www.1tvrus.com</a><!-- w -->, <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.1tv.ru/owa/win/ort6_main.main">http://www.1tv.ru/owa/win/ort6_main.main</a><!-- w --> , <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.rian.ru">http://www.rian.ru</a><!-- w -->, <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.vesti.ru/news">http://www.vesti.ru/news</a><!-- w -->, news.ntv.ru, <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.ren-tv.com">http://www.ren-tv.com</a><!-- w -->, <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.newsru.com">http://www.newsru.com</a><!-- w -->. We shall tell is not present to WAR!!! NATO and USA ACCEPT ABKHAZIA AND S. OSETIA INDEPENDANCE It is right that attack on Tbilissi can be real. In fact georgia soldiers are capitulating. Kremlin oficial says that NATO and USA representors are ready to accept independance of Abkhazia and Osetia, and won't help Georgia.
Re: Should the Ukraine join NATO? - Lenus - 08-21-2008
Sharak Wrote:People of the world! You deceive! World mass media conduct propagation of a false information. Russia DID NOT ATTACK Georgia! 07.08.2008 at 22:00 Georgia has attacked South Ossetia. .
You are wasting your time. Although its clear who started what, We all have passed that point.
Look at the situation now:
Russia annexes sovereign country!
Russia signs the peace deal and do not witdraw!! They are digging trenches!!
Russia allows its army to loot and kill civilians in Georgia, yesterday, today, tomorrow!!!
Stop talking nonsence.
Re: Should the Ukraine join NATO? - Lor - 08-21-2008
SiD Wrote:I spoke about Greece becouse democracy true democracy was born ther. You can be as free and democratic as you want and have close relations with west, not joining NATO and you would be just fine. Do not try to solve all your problems at someone other expanse.
What's your point??? Greece is a NATO member!!!! :quoi
Re: Should the Ukraine join NATO? - Andrewz - 08-21-2008
Dear forum users, please note, you are not allowed to use uncensored language within the forum. Try to respect each other's opinion.
Thank you!
Re: Should the Ukraine join NATO? - SiD - 08-21-2008
Lor Wrote:Lor i was speaking about ancient Greece. they want freedom? they have it. Or freedom must be given? Are they born in chains? Freedom and democracy are not apples from american tree they can not be just given it is not how it works.SiD Wrote:I spoke about Greece becouse democracy true democracy was born ther. You can be as free and democratic as you want and have close relations with west, not joining NATO and you would be just fine. Do not try to solve all your problems at someone other expanse.
What's your point??? Greece is a NATO member!!!! :quoi
Re: Should the Ukraine join NATO? - Lor - 08-21-2008
SiD Wrote:Lor Wrote:Lor i was speaking about ancient Greece. they want freedom? they have it. Or freedom must be given? Are they born in chains? Freedom and democracy are not apples from american tree they can not be just given it is not how it works.SiD Wrote:I spoke about Greece becouse democracy true democracy was born ther. You can be as free and democratic as you want and have close relations with west, not joining NATO and you would be just fine. Do not try to solve all your problems at someone other expanse.
What's your point??? Greece is a NATO member!!!! :quoi
You're right!! There is NO American tree, but NO Russian one either!! CONCLUSION!! These countries chose their path on their OWN!!!
Re: Should the Ukraine join NATO? - Faw_Peter - 08-21-2008
Quote:Look what is going in your "glubinka" alkoholizm, powerty, bandits, corruption.
As I understand you are speaking about Russian peripheries. I know that Moscow is a very rich city, and there is no place for poverty there.