Tamar Wrote:Dear Gift, I can understand your point of view, but these days we are on the edge.
Russains are still in our country, in Gori, Zugdidi, Poti - what did they lose in these cities? they keep looting and destroying, they are preventing us from entering these areas, no journalists, no GEORGIAN policy and politicians are allowed to enter these cities, I am ordered by some occupant to halt and watch how they loot my people. Russian fails to fulfill its agreement, does not it understand that its attitude is getting ridiculous and it stops being serious. What are Russian presidents thinking?

independent Wrote:I'm afraid You don't get the point Youself - those people are living in those areas. It is not acceptable to tell
to them that they have to move or accept Your opinions of how to live there.
Can't You see - You are Yourself justifying Your opinion with argument You blame russia is using ?
= This minority must accept our way or move elsewhere (because we have historical rights to that territory

Just odd.

Gift Wrote:

Tamar Wrote:Dear Gift, I can understand your point of view, but these days we are on the edge.
Russains are still in our country, in Gori, Zugdidi, Poti - what did they lose in these cities? they keep looting and destroying, they are preventing us from entering these areas, no journalists, no GEORGIAN policy and politicians are allowed to enter these cities, I am ordered by some occupant to halt and watch how they loot my people. Russian fails to fulfill its agreement, does not it understand that its attitude is getting ridiculous and it stops being serious. What are Russian presidents thinking?

Well we are told now in official news that our troops are leaving Georgian territories now - including South Ossetia and Tskhinval. That's why we're surfing the web - to be aware of both truths - and both lies.

What can I personally or other common Russians do for you? Do you think we're proud for these soldiers' actions?

And remember that in any war soldiers feel like gods-on-earth - that's PSYCHOLOGY. ANY army can act and acts not properly in foreign territories. There are soldiers that loot and maraud - and there are soldiers that take Georgian wounded soldier (wounded by them!) and give him water and carry to hospital - not shoot his head. That's a question of personal moral. Don't judge all Russian army by actions of individuals.

Now we can only hope that all guilty will be punished.

Gift Wrote:

Tamar Wrote:Dear Gift, I can understand your point of view, but these days we are on the edge.
Russains are still in our country, in Gori, Zugdidi, Poti - what did they lose in these cities? they keep looting and destroying, they are preventing us from entering these areas, no journalists, no GEORGIAN policy and politicians are allowed to enter these cities, I am ordered by some occupant to halt and watch how they loot my people. Russian fails to fulfill its agreement, does not it understand that its attitude is getting ridiculous and it stops being serious. What are Russian presidents thinking?

Well we are told now in official news that our troops are leaving Georgian territories now - including South Ossetia and Tskhinval. That's why we're surfing the web - to be aware of both truths - and both lies.

What can I personally or other common Russians do for you? Do you think we're proud for these soldiers' actions?

And remember that in any war soldiers feel like gods-on-earth - that's PSYCHOLOGY. ANY army can act and acts not properly in foreign territories. There are soldiers that loot and maraud - and there are soldiers that take Georgian wounded soldier (wounded by them!) and give him water and carry to hospital - not shoot his head. That's a question of personal moral. Don't judge all Russian army by actions of individuals.

Now we can only hope that all guilty will be punished.

Lor Wrote:Gift i wish all the Russians will be like you!

Gift Wrote:

Tamar Wrote:Dear Gift, I can understand your point of view, but these days we are on the edge.
Russains are still in our country, in Gori, Zugdidi, Poti - what did they lose in these cities? they keep looting and destroying, they are preventing us from entering these areas, no journalists, no GEORGIAN policy and politicians are allowed to enter these cities, I am ordered by some occupant to halt and watch how they loot my people. Russian fails to fulfill its agreement, does not it understand that its attitude is getting ridiculous and it stops being serious. What are Russian presidents thinking?

Well we are told now in official news that our troops are leaving Georgian territories now - including South Ossetia and Tskhinval. That's why we're surfing the web - to be aware of both truths - and both lies.

What can I personally or other common Russians do for you? Do you think we're proud for these soldiers' actions?

And remember that in any war soldiers feel like gods-on-earth - that's PSYCHOLOGY. ANY army can act and acts not properly in foreign territories. There are soldiers that loot and maraud - and there are soldiers that take Georgian wounded soldier (wounded by them!) and give him water and carry to hospital - not shoot his head. That's a question of personal moral. Don't judge all Russian army by actions of individuals.

Now we can only hope that all guilty will be punished.

independent Wrote:

Mariam Wrote:Listen I think I have explained u everuthing in an accurate and smooth way, with arguments, But seems that u DON'T want to hear what doesn't suit YOU. FOR YOU AGAIN I REPEAT. THIS IS A TERROTRY OF GEORGIA and if (???) OSETIANS and ABKHAZS DON't WANT TO LIVE HERE, RUSSIA IS HAVING THE BIGGEST TERRITORIES IN THE WORLD AND CAN SOMEHOW KEEP THOSE PEOPLE. BUT I THINK THAT THIS IS RUSSIANS PROVOCATIVE POLITICS AND THOSE PEOPLE REALLY are not AGAINS OF LIVING WITH US!!!

IS IT CLEAR FOR YOU????????????????

I'm afraid You don't get the point Youself - those people are living in those areas. It is not acceptable to tell
to them that they have to move or accept Your opinions of how to live there.
Can't You see - You are Yourself justifying Your opinion with argument You blame russia is using ?
= This minority must accept our way or move elsewhere (because we have historical rights to that territory


AND A QUESTION TO YOU. WHAT TO DO WITH OUR HALF MILLION REFIGEES> HOW CAN WE SATTLE THEIR LIVING ISSUE? MAYBE YOU ALREADY HAVE SOM THEORY ABOUT IT? :quoi
Just odd.

Gift Wrote:

Lor Wrote:Gift i wish all the Russians will be like you!

Thank you

Many assholes and many good people here - as in any other country. :livre
Believe me, there are lots of people in Russia that think like me.

solo Wrote:Чем отливается ложь
15 АВГУСТА 2008 г. ВИКТОР ШЕНДЕРОВИЧ

(Городские кварталы города Гори)


Свой прошлый текст, посвященный югоосетинской войне, я начал с цитаты из Ежи Леца — не будем менять структуру, тем более что Лец умудрился заранее прокомментировать почти все, что происходит с человечеством. Итак:
«Ложь отличается от правды тем, что не является ею».

…Около двух тысяч погибших в Цхинвали — эта цифра появилась сразу после грузинского обстрела и крутилась в прессе целую неделю. Уже суммировались помаленьку данные о количестве раненых из больниц и госпиталей — счет явно шел на сотни, а «две тысячи погибших» продолжали фигурировать в виде факта, хотя военная наука ясно указывает пропорцию убитых и раненых минимум один к трем, и при двух тысячах погибших раненых должно было быть никак не меньше шести тысяч…

И вот к исходу недели информационный дым рассеялся: в морге городской больницы Цхинвали, куда свезены все тела, — сорок четыре трупа. Еще четверо умерли от ран. Позволим себе трагическое допущение, что многие тела еще остались в руинах — порядок цифр очевидно останется тем же.

Речь идет о десятках погибших.

Сразу оговорюсь — трагедия Цхинвали от этого трагедией быть не перестает, и мою оценку действий Саакашвили новая арифметика ничуть не меняет. Он по нескольким пунктам тянет на звание «военного преступника», и его место в Гааге. Но следует заметить, что наша дурацкая официозная ложь в данном случае только усиливает карты этого авантюриста, давая возможность тыкать в нее носом Россию — и ставить под сомнения даже то, в чем мы по случайности не соврали.

А радостная бомбежка грузинских городов — как будто мы только и ждали повода — это, по Талейрану, больше чем преступление. Это ошибка.

Россия вообще сделала все, чтобы укрепить позиции противника. После нашего лихого «принуждения к миру» Саакашвили для всего мира стал в первую очередь жертвой агрессии и главной целью атак съехавшей с глузду России, которая впервые в своей новейшей истории совершила акт открытой интервенции… Кремль — сдуру или по расчету, лежащему уже совсем в иной парадигме — сделал все, чтобы мир забыл о параноидальной авантюре грузинского руководства и снова схватился за голову по нашему поводу.

А в мире к произошедшему отнеслись очень серьезно. Это уже не убийство Политковской и даже не полоний в чашке чая. Холодная войнушка, в которую поиграл в Мюнхене Путин, перестала быть шуткой. Мы, несомненно, будем понижены в международном статусе — и можно сколько угодно делать вид, что мы большие и нам это по барабану, но впереди у страны очень серьезный и, боюсь, печальный поворот сюжета. Доигрались, кажется.

Если все пойдет туда, куда идет сейчас, наше руководящее жулье так и будет вопить о великой России, поднимающейся с колен, пока отсюда не уедут все мало-мальски свободные и талантливые люди. А то мы не были аванпостом мира и прогресса, а то мы не знаем, чем это заканчивается.




(Дорога на Цхинвали, фотография Аркадия Бабченко, альманах "Искусство войны")


Но вернемся от общего к частному. Ко лжи.

Это, в сущности, и есть основа нашей политики — внешней, внутренней, любой. Это воздух, которым дышит наш официоз. Заметим в скобках, что любой официоз — не папа Иоанн Павел, и в любом министерстве лукавства выше крыши, но наше вранье отличается от окрестных масштабами и полной безнаказанностью.

Вся картина отечественной политики, как Кандинский из геометрических фигур, состоит из этих трех компонентов: ложь, воровство и смертоубийство. Ничего четвертого. Ну еще патриотическая лапша для орнамента, но ее можно смело считать разновидностью вранья…

Вранье отродясь состоит на обслуге у воровства и часто отливает деньгами.

Кремлевское — все чаще отливает еще и кровью. Нет живых после взрыва на подлодке «Курск», за захватом «Норд-Оста» стоит Масхадов, никаких политических требований у бандитов в Беслане, заложников — чуть больше трехсот…

И как прямое следствие каждого вранья — трупы, трупы, трупы…

За свежим враньем о двух тысячах погибших в Цхинвали последовали десятки убитых жителей Гори. Кремлю нужно было эмоциональное оправдание интервенции — нужно было, чтобы кровь бросилась в голову россиянам, застилая остатки мозга и логики… Власти снова соврали и снова добились своего.

Вот только теперь выясняется — агрессор Саакашвили убил меньше мирных людей, чем либерал Медведев.

Я ведь не ошибаюсь: фамилия нашего президента — Медведев?

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ВИКТОР ШЕНДЕРОВИЧ

Mariam Wrote:Listen YOUr way of thinking is very funny. With that mentality, everyone in the world can say they wnat indefandance and start fighting? Villeages, CIties, even street can be a state? IS it your was of thinking? :quoi

I will create som union. In this union will be representied e.g. 1000 GEorgian. Then we will come in finland (????, or maybe in MOscow), and we will say we want to an indepandance and want HELSINKI (MOSCOW). Will you (personally) accept it and say, come on... let them live here, THOSE people need an independance. :haha
I'm waiting for your reply.

independent Wrote:

Mariam Wrote:Listen YOUr way of thinking is very funny. With that mentality, everyone in the world can say they wnat indefandance and start fighting? Villeages, CIties, even street can be a state? IS it your was of thinking? :quoi

I will create som union. In this union will be representied e.g. 1000 GEorgian. Then we will come in finland (????, or maybe in MOscow), and we will say we want to an indepandance and want HELSINKI (MOSCOW). Will you (personally) accept it and say, come on... let them live here, THOSE people need an independance. :haha
I'm waiting for your reply.

Funny You ask that :nonnon

In Finland we have an territory called Ahvenanmaa (Island between Finland and Sweden )and its people found that they might want to be a part of Sweden better than Finland. There has been local polls of that issue - and so far polls has shown that more than half of them are wiling to remain with Finland.
When votings there shows that majority will not to belong Finland - Thats it, they will immediately get what they want. AND we are not telling them - move away, we keep that Island.

Lor Wrote:

Lenus Wrote:

Vitiumm Wrote:first of all,I should say that I live in Barcelona,but I have been studying in Russia soon after the Beslan tragedy,and what I saw(I tell this seriously,not trying to deceive anyone) I personally saw in the flats of russians small cards with the words "Beslan.I remember." placed next to icons!!It was a great tragedy,and YOU HAVE NO RIGHT!!! to talk this way,your country has done nothing for the victims of the tragedy!!and you do nothing at the moment to help your beloved brothers in Osetia!why are your children healed in Belorussian hospitals(yeah,another american enemy), why do russians collect money for repairing Tshinvally , but not you georgians?!

I Think you definitely are Russian, not Spanish ))) And if you were Catalonyan you wouldnt say you were Spanish, so Vitya, you are busted...

Only a Russian brings an argument like "you have no right to discuss it"

I AGREE!!

Eka Wrote:But untill 1801 Finland was totally under Swedish state and they gain indepedance in 1918 as I remeber, so you are giving back to sveden what is theres. Good egsample for pro-russian members of forum. You are great!!

SiD Wrote:

Lor Wrote:

Lenus Wrote:I Think you definitely are Russian, not Spanish ))) And if you were Catalonyan you wouldnt say you were Spanish, so Vitya, you are busted...

Only a Russian brings an argument like "you have no right to discuss it"

I AGREE!!

Wrong again!
It was written by "IamGeorgia" in topic Who started the war in S. Osetia: Georgia or Russia?
right in the first page look by yourself

Keep your mouth closed...better for you and for the rest..
You have no right speeking about anything..

independent Wrote:

Eka Wrote:But untill 1801 Finland was totally under Swedish state and they gain indepedance in 1918 as I remeber, so you are giving back to sveden what is theres. Good egsample for pro-russian members of forum. You are great!!

Oh really ? What I have been told we had so called union with Sweden - and we remains friends even today.
We are btw. giving nothing back to Sweden - we are accepting that people living in Ahvenanmaa has right to
decide themself what they want to do.
Our army could easily smash those Island and force it to remain with Finland. But it is not the way thinks are
dealed in democratic countries.
If we fall short of areas - we can easily gome and take some of Yours :langue (...just kidding...)
I already can imagine how easily that could be justified - You indeed were part of USSR - and hell no,
we don't forgive You that ! (...still kidding)

Eka Wrote:

independent Wrote:

Eka Wrote:But untill 1801 Finland was totally under Swedish state and they gain indepedance in 1918 as I remeber, so you are giving back to sveden what is theres. Good egsample for pro-russian members of forum. You are great!!

Oh really ? What I have been told we had so called union with Sweden - and we remains friends even today.
We are btw. giving nothing back to Sweden - we are accepting that people living in Ahvenanmaa has right to
decide themself what they want to do.
Our army could easily smash those Island and force it to remain with Finland. But it is not the way thinks are
dealed in democratic countries.
If we fall short of areas - we can easily gome and take some of Yours :langue (...just kidding...)
I already can imagine how easily that could be justified - You indeed were part of USSR - and hell no,
we don't forgive You that ! (...still kidding)

at last we understand who you are - member of komusnist party of Finland< maybe even General secretary of this oragnization.

you can ask what you wnat from russians? and then soon ( I predict it )even without asking for your teritorees they will ask you to go in new union they are soon organizing. Union of baltik Soviet States. ;-)

Eka Wrote:at last we understand who you are - member of komusnist party of Finland< maybe even General secretary of this oragnization.

Eka Wrote:you can ask what you wnat from russians? and then soon ( I predict it )even without asking for your teritorees they will ask you to go in new union they are soon organizing. Union of baltik Soviet States. ;-)

independent Wrote:Our army could easily smash those Island and force it to remain with Finland. But it is not the way thinks are
dealed in democratic countries.

independent Wrote:

Eka Wrote:at last we understand who you are - member of komusnist party of Finland< maybe even General secretary of this oragnization.

:haha You know even I commonly don't agree with Your views - I like Your sense of humour :haha

you can ask what you wnat from russians? and then soon ( I predict it )even without asking for your teritorees they will ask you to go in new union they are soon organizing. Union of baltik Soviet States. ;-)

Andres Wrote:

independent Wrote:Our army could easily smash those Island and force it to remain with Finland. But it is not the way thinks are
dealed in democratic countries.

You are absolutely right, this is true democracy!

But what Georgia is doing is Violence!
Georgia don`t let to S.Osetia and Abhazia to be independent. It simple to understand.
And Georgia call it Democracy, it`s hypocrisy. And instead of peacfull negotiations began to use arms.
USA lost true value of word 'democracy' with their wars, and Georgia trying to copy it.