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+--- Thread: Georgia and South Ossetia at war (/thread-1703.html)
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Faw_Peter - 08-21-2008
Balkaneese Wrote:Faw_Peter Wrote:Greece, as against to other EU countries, has good relations with Russia. Also, Athens is full of Russians and Ukrainians.
I think you forgot Cyprus.
They have good relations with Russia, too. 8-)
yeah, well a half of Cyprus is Greece's part
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Dmitry - 08-21-2008
Frederic Wrote:Dear Balkan boy and Dmitry,
Thank you very much. I really have had very good time this evening. I have never heard read such absurd and interesting things. Your fantasy has no limits. Thank you guys very much indeed. I was too naive to think that such brilliant ideas were only in heads of some orthodox, 80 years old Communists. Long live to Lenin! Long Live to Stalin! Their ideas are immortal. :-) :-) :-)
Bla-bla-bla....
thank you Frederic for supporting our conversation. Do you really think we are to blame in this war? It is your opinion, I respect it, but you have to agree that there is a great expansion of America to the East. Do you think it is justifiably?? I think not. And we will do everything to protect our interests...as Bush said about America...I respect America for a lot of things...but be kind, America, to respect other`s interests.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - chena - 08-21-2008
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZTI3ZGU3MGI0YTBkMjRjZTQzYTUxN2Q2OTc3ZWE1OWY=">http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZT ... c3ZWE1OWY=</a><!-- m -->
It's Not a Cold War
It just sounds like one.
By Frederick W. Kagan
The most grotesque aspect of Russia's aggression in Georgia is the repeated Russian claim that Georgia poses a threat to Russia and its citizens. In language harking back to the Orwellian rhetoric of the Cold War, all Russian troops are "peacekeepers" and all Georgian forces are "diversionaries" and "terrorists." Russian troops are now openly occupying Georgian territory on the grounds that law and order in Georgia has collapsed. Of course it has. Russian tanks and airplanes crushed it underfoot. Moscow bemoans the absence of "legitimate political leadership" in Georgian territories like Gori even as its troops occupy Gori without the slightest shred of legitimacy in international law. And, yes, this is in contrast with American actions in Iraq, which took place on the legal basis of the U.N. resolutions that followed (and ended) the first Gulf War.
The Russian occupation of Georgia has no such legal basis at all — not even the legality of a declaration of war. Yet Moscow continues to portray this occupation as an unfortunate necessity imposed upon Russia by Georgian "genocide" and incapacity to govern. The poor Russian general staff officers complain that they cannot even plan properly for the pull-back (as they explained in detail, Russian forces are not "withdrawing" from Georgia) since the Georgians can't seem to get their act together despite the assistance of Russian soldiers, tanks, and combat aircraft in their country. The most Orwellian claim of all came today, when the spokesman for the Russian general staff explained that Georgian troops were attempting to reconstitute their combat capabilities and were concentrating around Tbilisi, Georgia's capital. What an outrage! How dare the Georgians prepare to defend their capital! It is nothing less than an act of provocation, according to the Russians.
Comparing the current Russian rhetoric to the Cold War is, to some degree, unfair — to the Soviet Union. When the U.S.S.R. invaded Afghanistan in 1979, Moscow was meticulous about creating a fictitious Afghan government that "requested" the "fraternal assistance" of its socialist ally to the north, even if the leader of that government, Babrak Karmal, was not in Afghanistan at the time. Soviet operations to crush dissent in Germany, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and Poland also followed "requests" from the leadership of those countries to their "fraternal socialist allies" to the east. Since the Soviets went to great lengths to explain the theory whereby they were always the "peaceloving peoples," even when they invaded other countries, they also worked hard to preserve a veneer, however thin, to support the theory.
Putin, by contrast, feels no such obligation. The leaders of South Ossetia and Abkhazia certainly did ask for Russian assistance — as well they might, being out-and-out Russian satellites. Those requests were in line with traditional Cold War Soviet practice. But there is no Georgian government-in-exile requesting Russian "fraternal assistance" within Georgia proper. There is no U.N. mandate, no OSCE agreement, no provision in the charter of the Commonwealth of Independent States, and no article in the trilateral agreement by which Russian peacekeepers were in South Ossetia to begin with, justifying Russian attacks on Georgian cities, roads, and garrisons. The only justification the Russians can find for their unremitting efforts to destroy the Georgian military completely is that it poses a threat to their "peacekeepers." Stalin is probably spinning in his grave, wishing that he'd thought of that. As a justification for the illegal occupation of a neighbor and the destruction of its military, this thesis is so much easier to explain than Marxism-Leninism! And the wonderful thing about it is that it works everywhere: Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine, even Poland — all could pose threats to Russian troops, er, peacekeepers.
The one problem with this otherwise brilliant justification for outright Russian imperialism is that it is demonstrably false — unlike the esoteric theoretical premises of Marxism-Leninism. The Georgian military at its pre-war height consisted of about 29,000 servicemembers, including perhaps 17,000 in maneuver units in the army. It was mostly a light-infantry force, fielding around 82 T-72 tanks, around 210 armored personnel carriers. Its air force had half a dozen or so operational combat airplanes and about ten operational attack helicopters. The Russian army, by contrast, has over 6,000 tanks, more than 6,000 armored personnel carriers, hundreds of bombers, fighters, and fighter-bombers. Russian forces within Georgian territory numbered well over 10,000, calculating all the reinforcements Moscow sent to "protect" its peacekeepers. It is very likely that Russian forces within Georgia now outnumber the remaining effectives in the Georgian army.
In the process of protecting its peacekeepers, Moscow has bombed and/or occupied and demolished the garrison of every single Georgian army maneuver unit, every major military airfield, and Georgia's command-and-control centers. Russian units have been systematically destroying barracks, other buildings, and equipment at Georgian brigade garrisons at Senaki and Gori. The Russians announced that they had seized or destroyed almost every single tank the Georgians once possessed, as well as a great deal of artillery, and even rifles and small-arms ammunition — all on the soil of Georgia, not South Ossetia or Abkhazia. There has been no parallel to this military operation since Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait in 1990. It is an assault on the fabric of international law fully as devastating as Saddam's. But even Saddam never claimed that Kuwait posed a threat to Iraq.
The problem is that Russia is much bigger and stronger than Iraq, and Putin is much smarter than Saddam ever was. He knows that the U.S., to say nothing of Europe, is not going to send troops to Georgia. Washington has been unwilling even to send military equipment to an ally whose troops were fighting alongside of ours in Iraq just a few weeks ago — although it's not clear that such a move would make any sense, to be sure, since the Russians would likely just destroy anything we sent anyway. He does not believe that Russia will be kicked out of the G-8, stalled at the WTO, or pay any real price at all for this act of naked aggression. He believes that Russia will shortly recognize Abkhazia and South Ossetia as independent states — take that, Kosovo! — and no one will react.
He seems to intend to bring Georgian president Mikheil Saakashvili to trial either in the Hague or in Moscow or both for war crimes and genocide, and Russian spokesmen rail against America's refusal to "recognize" those war crimes and the genocide that did not occur in South Ossetia (where even inflated Russian figures put the death toll at around 1,600 people — far too many deaths, to be sure, but certainly not a genocide). All this will likely lead to Russian pressure on Georgia — did I mention that Russian forces have possessed themselves of the hydroelectric power station that supplies most of Georgia's electricity on the pretext of protecting it from Georgian terrorism? — to remove Saakashvili and submit to Moscow's will. And then who knows? Ukraine's pro-Western president is bringing charges against the pro-Russian prime minister. The Baltic states are panicking, as well they might. For facing the Russian challenge is much harder and more complicated than was facing Saddam Hussein in 1990 — not that that was easy.
But we must find a way. The alternative is to permit Putin to turn international law into the law of the jungle. Russia has not pursued so overtly an aggressive and imperialistic goal since the days of Catherine the Great. Putin's naked ambition may leave us longing for the days of Soviet sublety. After the invasion of Afghanistan, Jimmy Carter boycotted the 1980 Winter Olympics, imposed economic sanctions on Russia, sent military aid to Afghanistan, and embarked on what would become the Reagan military build-up. So far, the United States has canceled joint naval exercises with Russia and sent humanitarian aid to Georgia. It seems unlikely that that will be enough to deter Putin from further aggression.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Mariam-GEORGIAN - 08-21-2008
Balkaneese Wrote:Dmitry Wrote:Balkaneese Wrote:We should free ourselves by ourselves.
Why don`t you do that... I respect Serbians very much...But I can not nnderstand how could you betray your ex-president... ((((
We have a lot of scum and dirt among us.
We'll take care of it in a due time.
Just keep rising and shining, Mother Russia!
TERBE SROCHNO NUJNA POITI KVRACHU. NENARMALNIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII :haha
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - igorek - 08-21-2008
Yes... true words....
Mother Russia will prevail...
An all those scum will be gone...
Right now we are the only force that can enforce peace... Did you want to see all Ossetians dead?
We are the signle light in this dark world of clash of capitalistic interests...
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Dmitry - 08-21-2008
Mariam-GEORGIAN Wrote:TERBE SROCHNO NUJNA POITI KVRACHU. NENARMALNIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII :haha
SMEEJSYA, SMEEJSYA...TOLKO KOGDA BEGAT`BYDESH, NE ZABYD`SVOI AVTOMAT!!!! VOYAKIIIIIII !!!!! HA-HA-HA-HAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Dmitry - 08-21-2008
igorek Wrote:Yes... true words....
Mother Russia will prevail...
An all those scum will be gone...
Right now we are the only force that can enforce peace... Did you want to see all Ossetians dead?
We are the signle light in this dark world of clash of capitalistic interests...
Da chego s nimi razgovarivat`Igorek, oni ni cherta ne ponimaut. Sami boyatsya chto libo sdelat`ssikuni...
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Lor - 08-21-2008
Faw_Peter Wrote:Greece, as against to other EU countries, has good relations with Russia. Also, Athens is full of Russians and Ukrainians.
Greece is in NATO! END of conversation!
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Mariam-GEORGIAN - 08-21-2008
Dmitry Wrote:igorek Wrote:Yes... true words....
Mother Russia will prevail...
An all those scum will be gone...
Right now we are the only force that can enforce peace... Did you want to see all Ossetians dead?
We are the signle light in this dark world of clash of capitalistic interests...
Da chego s nimi razgovarivat`Igorek, oni ni cherta ne ponimaut. Sami boyatsya chto libo sdelat`ssikuni...
Everybody has identified your real face. Don't waste your time waiting when Georgians will run from their country. YOUr mentallity is so odd and dusty, I even can't find the words to appraise u. Thinking that some of your citizens have to be ashamed of a person like u. No brains NEVER gain! :haha
MEDIEVALLLLLLLL :haha
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Dmitry - 08-21-2008
Mariam-GEORGIAN Wrote:Don't waste your time waiting when Georgians will run from their country.
We don`t... we just wait when Americans will direct you and tell what to do... Georgia was an independent country, but now...Americans managed to make mischief us...it`s a pity, I always respect Georgians and now do...but not Saakashwilli
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-21-2008
I found highly interesting what Lavrov said today:
1) Russia don't need NATO more than NATO needs Russia
2) The future of NATO will be decided based on how it succeed in Afghanistan.
I know Russia is co-operating with NATO with allowing military transportation true russia.
Might be i'm a little paranoid but I doubt he was not talking only about embargo of military
transportation.
Afghanistan really is an important mission for NATO - so any ideas ?
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Dmitry - 08-21-2008
[quote="independent"]I found highly interesting what Lavrov said today quote]
I respect you interest independent, but the most interesting question is the American leaders thought that The Cold War isn`t over
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-21-2008
Dmitry Wrote:independent Wrote:I found highly interesting what Lavrov said today quote]
I respect you interest independent, but the most interesting question is the American leaders thought that The Cold War isn`t over
You know, I just want to argue about it any more - It is clear for me that this conflict is all about Russia - US
interests conflicting. And comparing it to Cold War is nothing but a joke
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Dmitry - 08-21-2008
[quote="independent"]
And comparing it to Cold War is nothing but a joke[/quoI ]
I agree with you that it`s about R and USA, but about what joke are you speaking about...Russians withdrawn their troops from the EASt EUrope, USA came their...US programme in Poland, then Russian`s possible plan in Belarus...if it`s a joke for you...so go ahead
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-21-2008
Dmitry Wrote:independent Wrote:And comparing it to Cold War is nothing but a joke[/quoI ]
I agree with you that it`s about R and USA, but about what joke are you speaking about...Russians withdrawn their troops from the EASt EUrope, USA came their...US programme in Poland, then Russian`s possible plan in Belarus...if it`s a joke for you...so go ahead
You see Cold War was originally keeping balance between two different ideology - so even US now calls this
Cold War continuing - I can't see same kind of reasoning behind it. There are interests of two countries - not two ideologies dividing hole world. US use that term to authorize own interests - pretty far a way from US itself.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Dmitry - 08-21-2008
independent Wrote:You see Cold War was originally keeping balance between two different ideology - so even US now calls this
Cold War continuing - I can't see same kind of reasoning behind it. There are interests of two countries - not two ideologies dividing hole world. US use that term to authorize own interests - pretty war a way from US itself.
blamed politicians...the losts are on their heads
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - scanio - 08-21-2008
"After two weeks of confrontational provocations, while all eyes were on Beijing last week, Georgia launched a full blown assault on Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia in an attempt to regain control of the territory. The result of this massive artillery attack and consequent two days seizure of the town of Tskhinvali was devastating! Over 1500 civilians died, 25 Russian peacekeepers got killed and 30000 refugees fled to Russia. Most surprisingly, Georgia started its all out attack just couple of hours after the South Ossetians agreed to a Russian-brokered cease-fire deal.
The attack took Russia by surprise. Although from a recent military exercise in a nearby location the army was quite prepared; it took almost 12 hours for Russia to take offensive counter measures. Moscow finally moved tanks and troops into South Ossetia to repel Georgian offensive and prevent deaths among a Russian peacekeeping force in the province.
Now the question is was it a mere miscalculation in Saakashvili’s part or was it a clever strategic move?
Four different possibilities are there:
Firstly, Georgia really believed that a blitzkrieg will allow it to destroy separatist stronghold and drove rebels away. An unprepared and surprised Russia will not be able to react quickly and will be forced to seek a political arrangement. This, however, looks unlikely as an immediate Russian retaliation was too obvious.
The second possibility - Saakashvili was fully aware of a potential Russian disproportionate backlash and he went for a deliberate gambit to score big with West screaming foul. It is not difficult to depict a big and authoritarian country bullying a small pro democratic country. Considering the reaction from many western commentators it seems that he was pretty successful in it!
Thirdly, it could be a well-planned maneuver organized by Pentagon to discover tactical and strategic capabilities of Russia’s rapid action force due to present deteriorated and strained relations between Russia and the West.
Finally, the whole scenario could have been masterminded by McCain’s foreign policy adviser Randy Sheunemann, who is happened to be a registered lobbyist in Washington for the Georgia government, with the support of Dick Cheney and other ultra conservative members of Republican Party. The goal is to portray Russia as an imminent threat to America’s allies, inflict paroxysm of fear among American electorate which in turn will boost popularity of McCain, a war veteran.
Whatever was the reason for irredentist Saakashvili’s impetuous decision to invade South Ossetia, the unfortunate civilians of Georgia had to pay the toll. Russia’s objectives are very clear: destroy military capabilities of Georgia as much as possible, create a buffer zone within Georgia near the borders of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, and seek independence for both of the enclaves at a later stage.
Nowshade Kabir: An independent political observer based in Europe. "
Read the whole article here: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://worldpolitico.blogspot.com/">http://worldpolitico.blogspot.com/</a><!-- m -->
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - chena - 08-21-2008
igorek Wrote:Yes... true words....
Mother Russia will prevail...
An all those scum will be gone...
Right now we are the only force that can enforce peace... Did you want to see all Ossetians dead?
We are the signle light in this dark world of clash of capitalistic interests...
It's ok to kill thousands of Georgians (there 300 000 refugees only from Abkhazia, and 60 000 from Ossetia now) or but it's a genocide when Ossetians are dying (which is horrible, of course). And you are the one who's speaking about hypocrisy and double standards? And how cynical it is "enforce peace"
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Balkaneese - 08-21-2008
Lor Wrote:Greece is in NATO!
So was Poland part of Warszaw pact. The pact is agreed in Poland.
And was Georgia part of USSR.
Times change...
Lor Wrote:END of conversation!
It's not the end when you say it is.
The end is when it is the end.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Balkaneese - 08-21-2008
chena Wrote:...there 300 000 refugees only from Abkhazia, ...
Reports say there is actually 732 Georgian refugees from Abkhazia in the most recent conflict.
I do hope you hang Suck'a-a-a-AAA-sh-vilain high and quick, so peace comes back and Russia can support autonomy of Abkhazia and S. Ossetia within Georgia.
But you need to be quick. And he must hang high.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - IamGEORGIA - 08-21-2008
Well , russia faces now real dilemma..
First of all Devil Empire has no support at all on the international stage..Today Syria supported Russia :haha well, syria was always a close ally of russia during cold war..Russia todaypromised to sell weapon to siriann side..well move definetely againts israel and american interesets..
Then, secong important issue..Russia should decide, how soon will it withdraw it troops from Georgian teritory...There is one big question: after signing ceasefire, why are they still here? answer is clear i think: there is conglict of interesets between putin and medve..There can be another answer: thay just do not know what to do, because they are under huge pressure and criticism..There will be some economic sanctions...Everybody mentions now G7 instead of G8..that means something..So they hve no idea what to do next, and thats why try to keep here for a bit long..Because thay know that when they are out from our teritory, there will be some steps made towards replacing them by international peacekeepers...It means they will lose Caucasus...This will certainly happen very soon.
They are also afraid that US military sea forces with humanitarian aid are moving towards black sea to the port of Poti..where russian are staying now..(by the way they have stolen from Poti US Sexretary of defence owned Hammers ...)
But they cant be here for a long time...we will get them out..they will get out by their own, or with help of us..
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Dmitry - 08-21-2008
Georgians are to blame...Russians are to blame....go ahead...let`s quarrel!!!!!!!!!!! Americans want us to do that!!!
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Balkaneese - 08-21-2008
IamGEORGIA Wrote:...Everybody mentions now G7 instead of G8..that means something...
I'm sure both Putin and Medvedev shudder from this
IamGEORGIA Wrote:They are also afraid that US military sea forces ...
LOL
Bro, Turkey rejected the request of USofA to pass the ships through Bosphorus. They don't want to annoy Big Bear.
Uncle Sam doesn't come to save your **s.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - IamGEORGIA - 08-21-2008
Balkaneese Wrote:IamGEORGIA Wrote:...Everybody mentions now G7 instead of G8..that means something...
I'm sure both Putin and Medvedev shudder from this
IamGEORGIA Wrote:They are also afraid that US military sea forces ...
LOL
Bro, Turkey rejected the request of USofA to pass the ships through Bosphorus. They don't want to annoy Big Bear.
Uncle Sam doesn't come to save your **s.
well mate
They are not so clever to do so..
uper Turkey today allowed all of 3 ships to move forward to the georgian boarder..
Thats whay russian troops went back today in Poti, and made there some fortification..
P.S. today nobody is acting to save only georgia (poland missle shield)..Today world is saving himself form modern fashizm..
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Balkaneese - 08-21-2008
IamGEORGIA Wrote:P.S. today nobody is acting to save only georgia (poland missle shield)..Today world is saving himself form modern fashizm..
I hope so.
So when are you hanging high that fascist, Suck'a-a-a-AAA-sh-vilain?