+- Forums (https://eu-forums.com)
+-- Forum: EU Forums (https://eu-forums.com/forum-19.html)
+--- Forum: Hot Topics (https://eu-forums.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Thread: Georgia and South Ossetia at war (/thread-1703.html)
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - boka - 08-22-2008
Balkaneese Wrote:Facts. As I know, prowestern party has won recent elections in Serbia, not pro russian. Russia failed to defend Serbia`s territorial integrity despite thier efforts. Though to be frank this very fact (I mean Kosovo) is not acceptable for me personally. So don`t speculate about fairness, we all know that unfair things do happen in the world and small countries often depend on big countries games, but you should have better partners. At the same time Western values are more acceptable. Liberal democracy is better then russian autocracy and chaos. Nato soldiers are better then russian. Nato soldiers don`t steel toothbrushes, russian soldiers are hungry and angry.So democracy is bad, but it is the best thing the world has invented(Cherchill)boka Wrote:Your beloved russians failed to do anything for you.
What would you know?
boka Wrote:But anyway, Serbia still longs for the west not for russia. It means that nobody wants russia (except Syria, Venezuela and Belorusia).
What would you know?
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Lor - 08-22-2008
Balkaneese Wrote:boka Wrote:Your beloved russians failed to do anything for you.
What would you know?
boka Wrote:But anyway, Serbia still longs for the west not for russia. It means that nobody wants russia (except Syria, Venezuela and Belorusia).
What would you know?
VERY DEEP ANSWERS. Might take me a month to read them carefully. :haha :haha
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Balkaneese - 08-22-2008
boka Wrote:Facts. As I know,
I've already told you:
Balkaneese Wrote:
What would you know?
boka Wrote:Russia failed to defend Serbia`s territorial integrity despite thier efforts.
Really?
And why it's up to Russia to defend Serbia's territorial integrity by any other means except like she does now - by firm principled stance in international relations?
If you meant that they should have come to save our ar*e from that paper tiger NATO - you were wrong. It was up to us, and we did what we could, until former President decided to sign a peace accord that was never honored by NATO/USA/EU.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Balkaneese - 08-22-2008
Lor Wrote:Balkaneese Wrote:boka Wrote:Your beloved russians failed to do anything for you.
What would you know?
boka Wrote:But anyway, Serbia still longs for the west not for russia. It means that nobody wants russia (except Syria, Venezuela and Belorusia).
What would you know?
VERY DEEP ANSWERS. Might take me a month to read them carefully. :haha :haha
Take your time.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Frederic - 08-22-2008
Balkaneese Wrote:boka Wrote:Facts. As I know,
I've already told you:
Balkaneese Wrote:
What would you know?
boka Wrote:Russia failed to defend Serbia`s territorial integrity despite thier efforts.
Really?
And why it's up to Russia to defend Serbia's territorial integrity by any other means except like she does now - by firm principled stance in international relations?
If you meant that they should have come to save our ar*e from that paper tiger NATO - you were wrong. It was up to us, and we did what we could, until former President decided to sign a peace accord that was never honored by NATO/USA/EU.
I respect your people very much and I really do beleive that you have done what you could. But I fully agree with boka-You have had bad partner. Russians will never be able any more to make decisions on the European continent.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Julia - 08-22-2008
Lor Wrote:Julia Wrote:chena Wrote:Thank you Lenus,
I am ethnic Russian, but I am so ashamed of what is going on in Russia: people being brainwashed by the government’s propaganda, there is no sign of free word and etc., moreover there is even no illusion of democracy. quote]
Chena, are you sure that you know everything about this awfull situation? Why do you think that world mass media shows correctly conflict? Russia simply doesn't have journalists in world channels, who can show another point of view, different from US.
The views of your journalists such as: Politkovskaya have been heard LOUDLY! Only problem as you said, you don't have journalists with the same magnitude anymore for the reason of suppression of free press. She paid a HIGH price for the TRUTH she wrote, I don't think your journalists are ready to pay the same price today!!!
I wish Kremlin would name a street after her like other countries DID!!
Lor, have you heard about russian journalist Solovjev? Have you read his articles?
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Balkaneese - 08-22-2008
Frederic Wrote:I respect your people very much and I really do beleive that you have done what you could.
We could have waited until NATO launched offensive on the ground (though it could have taken a century), or until a nuclear attack.
Yet, strategy as applied by Suck'a-a-a-AAA-sh-vilains, to cry & lie in English-speaking media, had not been applied.
Frederic Wrote:You have had bad partner. Russians will never be able any more to make decisions on the European continent.
Again:
Balkaneese Wrote:
What would you know?
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-22-2008
Frederic Wrote:I respect your people very much and I really do beleive that you have done what you could. But I fully agree with boka-You have had bad partner. Russians will never be able any more to make decisions on the European continent.
Hm, You see when the dust is settled down - let's say after 2-3 months - US and Russia are again as
close "friends" as they were before this conflict. In EU Baltic-countries, Poland Sweden and UK are not
presenting even close the majority. And rest of EU is not willing to spoil relations to Russia. So I found
very little if any evidences supporting Your opinion.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Frederic - 08-22-2008
Balkaneese Wrote:When I say that I respect your efforts to protects your territorial integrity I really mean it without any sarcazm. I know that you are brave people and very defending your interests by all means. As regards bad partners, it is obvious that you have bad partners. The results indicate this. You have lost Kosovo. It is regretfull but it is a fact. But anyway it was very wise that you decided to have pro western position in spite of this. Your aspirations towards EU are really very reasonable.Frederic Wrote:I respect your people very much and I really do beleive that you have done what you could.
We could have waited until NATO launched offensive on the ground (though it could have taken a century), or until a nuclear attack.
Yet, strategy as applied by Suck'a-a-a-AAA-sh-vilains, to cry & lie in English-speaking media, had not been applied.
Frederic Wrote:You have had bad partner. Russians will never be able any more to make decisions on the European continent.
Again:
Balkaneese Wrote:
What would you know?
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Frederic - 08-22-2008
independent Wrote:Frederic Wrote:I respect your people very much and I really do beleive that you have done what you could. But I fully agree with boka-You have had bad partner. Russians will never be able any more to make decisions on the European continent.
Hm, You see when the dust is settled down - let's say after 2-3 months - US and Russia are again as
close "friends" as they were before this conflict. In EU Baltic-countries, Poland Sweden and UK are not
presenting even close the majority. And rest of EU is not willing to spoil relations to Russia. So I found
very little if any evidences supporting Your opinion.
I don`t mean that the USA and EU will become foes over Georgia and will halt any partnership.First of all I meant that Russia has already lostist influence in Eastern Europe and even Balkans. Step by step (as it was done in Eastern Europe and Balkans) Ukraine and Georgia will be freed from Russia too. Then it will be the turn of Moldova and Bellorussia (I hope). So be patient and you will see it.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Balkaneese - 08-22-2008
Frederic Wrote:The results indicate this. You have lost Kosovo. It is regretfull but it is a fact.
No, we haven't.
We'll get back there. Wait and you'll see.
Frederic Wrote:But anyway it was very wise that you decided to have pro western position in spite of this. Your aspirations towards EU are really very reasonable.
We don't have western position, and we'll never have it.
Aspirations towards EU expressed by puppet bribed polititians will be gone, "sooner, rather than later" (Copyright Dubia).
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-22-2008
Frederic Wrote:I don`t mean that the USA and EU will become foes over Georgia and will halt any partnership.First of all I meant that Russia has already lostist influence in Eastern Europe and even Balkans. Step by step (as it was done in Eastern Europe and Balkans) Ukraine and Georgia will be freed from Russia too. Then it will be the turn of Moldova and Bellorussia (I hope). So be patient and you will see it.
You see it can as well be said that Eastern Europe has lost a lot of its creditability in EU. It works both way
You see. Same with NATO. If You think that Ukraine or Georgia are allowed to join NATO in the near future,
then You simply don't understand what is going on.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Frederic - 08-22-2008
independent Wrote:We are patient. Don`t bother about it. And if even Georgia fails to join Nato, Russia will never have influence in Georgia. Georgia is on a fault line where clash of idologies is under way. Maybe I am idealist, but I do believe that the idea of Democracy and Western values will prevail. And fifth column is very weak in Georgia.Frederic Wrote:I don`t mean that the USA and EU will become foes over Georgia and will halt any partnership.First of all I meant that Russia has already lostist influence in Eastern Europe and even Balkans. Step by step (as it was done in Eastern Europe and Balkans) Ukraine and Georgia will be freed from Russia too. Then it will be the turn of Moldova and Bellorussia (I hope). So be patient and you will see it.
You see it can as well be said that Eastern Europe has lost a lot of its creditability in EU. It works both way
You see. Same with NATO. If You think that Ukraine or Georgia are allowed to join NATO in the near future,
then You simply don't understand what is going on.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - SiD - 08-22-2008
independent Wrote:Frederic Wrote:I don`t mean that the USA and EU will become foes over Georgia and will halt any partnership.First of all I meant that Russia has already lostist influence in Eastern Europe and even Balkans. Step by step (as it was done in Eastern Europe and Balkans) Ukraine and Georgia will be freed from Russia too. Then it will be the turn of Moldova and Bellorussia (I hope). So be patient and you will see it.
You see it can as well be said that Eastern Europe has lost a lot of its creditability in EU. It works both way
You see. Same with NATO. If You think that Ukraine or Georgia are allowed to join NATO in the near future,
then You simply don't understand what is going on.
I think some unwise people are eager to collect any problem they can. And you right independent they just do not understand what is going on they also fail to see how these problems can effect them.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Frederic - 08-22-2008
Balkaneese Wrote:I will be really very happy if you will get back to Kosovo.Frederic Wrote:The results indicate this. You have lost Kosovo. It is regretfull but it is a fact.
No, we haven't.
We'll get back there. Wait and you'll see.
Frederic Wrote:But anyway it was very wise that you decided to have pro western position in spite of this. Your aspirations towards EU are really very reasonable.
We don't have western position, and we'll never have it.
Aspirations towards EU expressed by puppet bribed polititians will be gone, "sooner, rather than later" (Copyright Dubia).
As regards your opinion over your Government, they are elected by your people, so respect the choice of your compatriots. That is democracy. But I suppose Democracy is not a value personally for you. Once again I will quote: It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.
Sir Winston Churchill
British politician (1874 - 1965)
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-22-2008
Frederic Wrote:We are patient. Don`t bother about it. And if even Georgia fails to join Nato, Russia will never have influence in Georgia. Georgia is on a fault line where clash of idologies is under way. Maybe I am idealist, but I do believe that the idea of Democracy and Western values will prevail. And fifth column is very weak in Georgia.
I honour your optimist view - And I say it with no sarcasm.
But be prepared to encounter a very different turn of events in the near future.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Salomo - 08-22-2008
Dmitry Wrote:independent Wrote:And comparing it to Cold War is nothing but a joke[/quoI ]
I agree with you that it`s about R and USA, but about what joke are you speaking about...Russians withdrawn their troops from the EASt EUrope, USA came their...US programme in Poland, then Russian`s possible plan in Belarus...if it`s a joke for you...so go ahead
The little difference is: Eastern Europe did not ask the Russians to come, but on the contrary they WANT to have the presence of USA there... to protect them against an aggressive Russia. Do you understand the difference?
If an Eastern Europe country with democratically elected leaders wants to be member of NATO, let them be. The former Warsaw Pact countries did not at that time have democratically elected leaders. And when some began to have popular leaders, like Hungery in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968, they were "punished" by... Russian (USSR) leaders. Otherwise they would have left the Pact...
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Frederic - 08-22-2008
independent Wrote:Maybe, nobody knows. But anyway Russia will never be in Georgia. Georgians know what is Russia. Some europeans still don`t acknowlege this, or don`t want to acknowlege. But they will step by step.Frederic Wrote:We are patient. Don`t bother about it. And if even Georgia fails to join Nato, Russia will never have influence in Georgia. Georgia is on a fault line where clash of idologies is under way. Maybe I am idealist, but I do believe that the idea of Democracy and Western values will prevail. And fifth column is very weak in Georgia.
I honour your optimist view - And I say it with no sarcasm.
But be prepared to encounter a very different turn of events in the near future.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-22-2008
Salomo Wrote:The little difference is: Eastern Europe did not ask the Russians to come, but on the contrary they WANT to have the presence of USA there... to protect them against an aggressive Russia. Do you understand the difference?
It is not about what they want indeed - if they are part of EU they must support what majority of EU wants.
They can't simply implement their nationalistic willingness to opposite Russia in every single possibility.
Salomo Wrote:If an Eastern Europe country with democratically elected leaders wants to be member of NATO, let them be. The former Warsaw Pact countries did not at that time have democratically elected leaders. And when some began to have popular leaders, like Hungery in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968, they were "punished" by... Russian (USSR) leaders. Otherwise they would have left the Pact...
Again It is not what they want, but question is what NATO wants - and majority of NATO countries are EU
countries as well. In the future NATO will follow much more closely EU interests than until now.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-22-2008
Frederic Wrote:Maybe, nobody knows. But anyway Russia will never be in Georgia. Georgians know what is Russia. Some europeans still don`t acknowlege this, or don`t want to acknowlege. But they will step by step.
Have You ever thought that it might be because most of Europeans just understand better
the "big picture" ?
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Salomo - 08-22-2008
Balkaneese Wrote:Lenus Wrote:Russia brings Freedom, US brought destruction and enslavement.
Freedom from what? From democracy???
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Frederic - 08-22-2008
independent Wrote:Dear Independent,Frederic Wrote:Maybe, nobody knows. But anyway Russia will never be in Georgia. Georgians know what is Russia. Some europeans still don`t acknowlege this, or don`t want to acknowlege. But they will step by step.
Have You ever thought that might be it is because most of Europeans just understand better
the "big picture" ?
I said "some" europeans and not "most" or "all". There some people who simply don`t care, there are few, who have pro Communist views. Some Europeans are still fascinated with the ideas of Marx and Engels, Lenin and Stalin. This is because they have not experienced Gulag, I guess. Are you among them too.
Most Europeans understand things quite well. So look carefully where I used the word "some", where "most ", where "all" and where "few".
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Salomo - 08-22-2008
independent Wrote:There is not such a thing than "free media" - even privately owned media has its own interests.
So the truth is always somewhere in the middle of all published information.
A nice example of it is that after Bush gave his first statement - e.g. cnn and bbc both made a small
correction of their emphasis on this conflict. Later the fact that Georgia was the first one who crossed line
was simply disregarded. Even when it now is clear for everyone - it is still hardly mentioned in news -
but hidden inside articles - they simply are not willing to make it to headlines
from cnn today (article: Russia: Troop withdrawal in its 'final phase' ):
" The U.S. ambassador to Russia, John Beyrle, told the Russian business daily Kommersant it had urged
Georgia not to launch an attack and that Russia responded in a "legitimate" way, though he went on to say Russia went too far in its military incursion.
His comments represent a public acknowledgment from a senior U.S. official that Russia had some
justification for its initial response to Georgia's attack on South Ossetia.
CNN confirmed the ambassador's response with the U.S. Embassy in Russia."
And how long time has Russia the moral right to stay in Georgia just because it “started the war”? 10 or 100 years??? Killing or destructing homes how many times more than the Georgians did in Tskhinvali??
To Russians: you really want your army to stay in Georgia for ever, just because Saakashvili “started the war”???
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-22-2008
Salomo Wrote:And how long time has Russia the moral right to stay in Georgia just because it “started the war”? 10 or 100 years??? Killing or destructing homes how many times more than the Georgians did in Tskhinvali??
To Russians: you really want your army to stay in Georgia for ever, just because Saakashvili “started the war”???
They are not staying forever - and You know it. They have been there now 2 weeks and are already
leaving today (most of them). I can call that fair enough.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - tamara08 - 08-22-2008
independent Wrote:Did you have any conversation with Mr. Nogovitsin on this vey issue? or Mr.Putin has personally promised you he will do so. Thanks for consolation, but you dont know, and I hope you will never know it, what is Russian hungry soldier on your soil.Salomo Wrote:And how long time has Russia the moral right to stay in Georgia just because it “started the war”? 10 or 100 years??? Killing or destructing homes how many times more than the Georgians did in Tskhinvali??
To Russians: you really want your army to stay in Georgia for ever, just because Saakashvili “started the war”???
They are not staying forever - and You know it. They have been there now 2 weeks and are already
mostly leaving. I can call that fair enough.