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Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-26-2008
lashachochua Wrote:independent Wrote:lashachochua Wrote:Are you sure that you have normal relations with all countries, if you are russian.....We will see this on the 1st september..............
I'm still Finnish. You only assume that anyone with different point of view is russian.
But face the fact Bush and Saakashvili might be heroes in Georgia - elsewhere they
are just two stupid politics.
No no no, when I wrote this reply there was no written that you are from Finland....
You see this is might be 10th time during this topics I have mentioned it - so You can look
back some pages and find the same information there. But it is somehow out of topic.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-26-2008
lashachochua Wrote:We georgians also have not only one century experience to be between two empires......We have different story from the history, being neutral have always been bad for us.... We do not want to be with USA at all, what we want is to be the part of EU and NATO, because the huge Russia is threat for us......
I understand Your feelings - And my opinion is that You should first try to be member of EU.
It is much easier than joining to NATO - and Russia has no need to resist that. My personal
opinion is that NATO is not that good choice to countries with country borders directly with
russia. It sure rise tensions and gives no real guarantee of anything. But it is only my opinion.
(btw only 25% of our people are willing to join NATO - but we have pretty big army of our
own)
EDITED: And If You can maintain good relationship against Russia ( it really is not that hard )
so You can always profit by beeing edge between EU and Russia.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Yalta1945 - 08-27-2008
independent Wrote:I'm pretty dam familiar what USSR did to my country
independent Wrote:But at the same time what else You can expect from an President with prominently so "high" IQ
Once I went to listen to a classical music concert in one of Turku’s museums which then hosted an exhibition of the Soviet art from the Stalinist period. Musicians sat down in front a huge painting dedicated to “the leader of all nations”. I tried to listen to the music in such surrounding but I failed. I had to move elsewhere so that I could enjoy the music. But you, Finns, must be dam cold-blooded people if you can stand it.
I am also fully aware of how your president Tarja Halonen described Vladimir Putin: the best leader of Russia that Finland has ever had to deal with. She meant the best one to Finland. Let’s now ask Georgians: is Putin the best leader of Russia?..
The main point here is that your history might be unique and its lessons not applicable to other nations. Finns had war with Russia but they did not experience such things as NKVD (predecessor of KGB) forces burning villagers alive in their houses, eradication of the whole country’s elite and facing the everyday dilemma of collaboration. These things are just different. Finland suffered a very big loss but it was not so extended in time as the process of sovietisation.
It was not so far ago when V.Putin claimed the Baltic States used to voluntarily join the Soviet Union. What can we expect from the president who talks such nonsense that even children in our kindergartens would laugh at? It sounds funny to our kids, but it is an insult to the elderly who suffered from the Soviet occupants, and it is also a sign to be worried of, if we look at the broader picture.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - russian999 - 08-27-2008
It is just funny, but I was thinking , that Saakashvili is cinical and lier. But now I can see, that Georgians not cinical! They are too romantical! They belive in some "rules" and "principals" and they ready to die for it!
Well, keep on belivieng. You will soon hit the wall of reality - that America just using you. And that nobody really cares about georgians, exept georgians themself. After this you will elect pragmatic leader, who will be not "dreaming", but "doing".
So your Saakashwili now as oure Yeltzin. But wait, soon you will elect better president. As oure Putin now
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - lashachochua - 08-27-2008
russian999 Wrote:It is just funny, but I was thinking , that Saakashvili is cinical and lier. But now I can see, that Georgians not cinical! They are too romantical! They belive in some "rules" and "principals" and they ready to die for it!
Well, keep on belivieng. You will soon hit the wall of reality - that America just using you. And that nobody really cares about georgians, exept georgians themself. After this you will elect pragmatic leader, who will be not "dreaming", but "doing".
So your Saakashwili now as oure Yeltzin. But wait, soon you will elect better president. As oure Putin now
:haha :haha :haha :haha and you say georgians are dreamers.......You russians living in totalitarizm, loving Putin and Medvedev, calling him the best president of Russia.......Come on....You do not have right to tell such things....."Nobody cares about Georgians"........Can you tell me who cares about Russia?....Even more who does not hate russian gevernmenet?.......CUba Belarus, beleive me they also hate your government, just they are typical followers of the politics you tell the reality. Every wall can be destroyed.....The history showed this.....German wall, even Chinase huge wall was not support for chinase paople many times......You problem is that you do not beleive to the principles and rules, which are internationaly recognized.................
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-27-2008
Yalta1945 Wrote:Once I went to listen to a classical music concert in one of Turku’s museums which then hosted an exhibition of the Soviet art from the Stalinist period. Musicians sat down in front a huge painting dedicated to “the leader of all nations”. I tried to listen to the music in such surrounding but I failed. I had to move elsewhere so that I could enjoy the music. But you, Finns, must be dam cold-blooded people if you can stand it.
I have not seen that art exhibition You told about - I'm not interested of art from Stalinist period.
When I read Your description of artists sitting down and headed to that picture - I found it to be very
innovative way to tell what was art from that period all about. There was one accepted source of
"inspiration", and it was expected to be depicted with admire.
Yalta1945 Wrote:I am also fully aware of how your president Tarja Halonen described Vladimir Putin: the best leader of Russia that Finland has ever had to deal with. She meant the best one to Finland. Let’s now ask Georgians: is Putin the best leader of Russia?..
Whatever You think about Putin, You pretty sure admit that he is clever and calculating - and with that
kind of leader it is much easier to deal with than with an stupid or too emotional leader.
Yalta1945 Wrote:The main point here is that your history might be unique and its lessons not applicable to other nations. Finns had war with Russia but they did not experience such things as NKVD (predecessor of KGB) forces burning villagers alive in their houses, eradication of the whole country’s elite and facing the everyday dilemma of collaboration. These things are just different. Finland suffered a very big loss but it was not so extended in time as the process of sovietisation.
It is possible You are right - but then have You ever thought that russians are as concerned about their
own security than You are about Your countrys. I think It can be a little anxious when You are
surrounded by NATO countries. Remember that the reason why NATO was formed was fighting against
USSR. And now when there no more USSR - NATO is still trying to enlarge.
So how reasonable it is to rise tensions ?
Yalta1945 Wrote:It was not so far ago when V.Putin claimed the Baltic States used to voluntarily join the Soviet Union. What can we expect from the president who talks such nonsense that even children in our kindergartens would laugh at? It sounds funny to our kids, but it is an insult to the elderly who suffered from the Soviet occupants, and it is also a sign to be worried of, if we look at the broader picture.
I must say that what really happened remains ambiguous for me also. I believe that big majority of people
in those countries didn't want to join USSR. But I think that e.g. in Estonia there might have happened
some kind of political treason of their own - and because of that, it kind of looked like everything was legal.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Elrat - 08-27-2008
The history
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia</a><!-- m -->
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Elrat - 08-27-2008
[quote="chena"]The international community should/must meaningfully aid Georgia in stopping the Russian Federation from violating international laws and its attacks on Georgia's sovereign territory.
And who should aid South Ossetia to avoid genocide? With the first salvo at the sleeping Tshinvali, with shooting preferably at ambulances, with crushing pregnant women by tanks Herr Führer Saakaschvili has deprived his country of the sovereignty over South Ossetia. Why isn't there any coverage by the western mass media of the South Ossetian part of the conflict? Who cares about Ossetia people? Mr. "Empty Warhead" :banghead George Bush who even pronounces Ossetia like "Oseesha"? Tell me of the other way to save the Ossetian nation!
I don't have any sympathy for Mr. Putin and mr. Medvedev for their internal policy neither have many other Russians but this conflict unites majority of Russians and you should not view them as less inteligent than you. Now our basis for the argumentation is much stronger than that of the west who have absolultely no moral right to judge us!
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - chena - 08-27-2008
Giovane Wrote:chena Wrote:Giovane Wrote:Very interesting vote and discussion. The results of voting is so shoking, 'cause most of people think that Russia attacked Georgia, it's some kind of bullsh..tGiovane,
8.8.8 Georgia attaket ossetian slippiing city, georgian army killed 2000 people, so, the information in newspappers -isn't trustworthy. Please, answer me, why american and european journalist didn't be in Ossetia????They was only in Georgia in that tragic day.... Because nowdays America has started company vs. Russia. I think that Bush and co. are in the time of cold war,and they think that Russia-it's USSR....
America accuses Russia in agressia, but why america attacked the IRAQ???? IRAQ hadn't bombs. Bushm Saakashvili are criminals
I keep asking these questions maybe you could answer me finally:
1. I agree that killing civilians is a crime. However, 300 000 Georgian IDPs from Abkhazia, tens of thousands killed sind 1992. Despite the fact that these numbers and represent 70% of population of Abkhazia this is not called genocide of Georgians. WHY?
2. In fact shooting and bombing started not on 08.08.08 but on 05.08.08 and from so called South Ossetia's side. Georgian villages (CIVILIANS again) have been heavily bombed. Moreover, it was not the first time Russian peacekeepers and ossetians separatist did that. Why do you deny these evident facts?
3. There are tens of villages Georgian are burnt, bombed and completely destroyed together with their inhabitants, there are more than 70 000 IDPs from Kartli and South Ossetia region. Could you remind me why this does not qualify for genocide?
For answering I should tell you some historical facts:
1) this georgians that lived in Abkhazia hadn't been native population. They appeared in 1930-x years with Stalin's help . Because in that time more that a half of goviernment was georgians. they wanted that Abkhazia would be a part of georgian republic.
2) Evident fact??? ha-ha-ha, it's your, georgians, lie. Why don't you tell us about georgian provocations from 2000???
3)
That you wrote it's a bul....t unfornuately. Russian aviations bombed only docks in Poti& Gori. Georgians army shamefuly run away. And your information it's next fact of lying propaganda...
To answere I should remined you some quotes, these people were smarter than we are maybe you will listen to them
Martin Luther King, Jr.:
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Matthew 15:14:
If the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Molly Ivins:
I believe that ignorance is the root of all evil. And that no one knows the truth.
Ingnorance is not a shame or sin but still nothing to be proud of and show off. READ MORE!
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - lashachochua - 08-27-2008
Elrat Wrote:chena Wrote:The international community should/must meaningfully aid Georgia in stopping the Russian Federation from violating international laws and its attacks on Georgia's sovereign territory.
And who should aid South Ossetia to avoid genocide? With the first salvo at the sleeping Tshinvali, with shooting preferably at ambulances, with crushing pregnant women by tanks Herr Führer Saakaschvili has deprived his country of the sovereignty over South Ossetia. Why isn't there any coverage by the western mass media of the South Ossetian part of the conflict? Who cares about Ossetia people? Mr. "Empty Warhead" :banghead George Bush who even pronounces Ossetia like "Oseesha"? Tell me of the other way to save the Ossetian nation!
I don't have any sympathy for Mr. Putin and mr. Medvedev for their internal policy neither have many other Russians but this conflict unites majority of Russians and you should not view them as less inteligent than you. Now our basis for the argumentation is much stronger than that of the west who have absolultely no moral right to judge us!
An you think you have moral right to talk about S. Ossetia and Abkhazia....Once I told that I might beleive to Russia, only in the case if you admitt the independence of Chechnya and Ingusheti, and manu national minorities, they are somewhere 200 in the teritory of Russia, may be it is time to ask them whether they want independence.......Or they are special cases.......I am for small nationans, but first all those people desplaces by force should be get back to their living places, after this we can ask them if they want independence from Georgia, if the answer will be YES, I am for their independence......But Russia is orianted on abkhazs and ossetians, but they were not only people living in these territories.......BY your logic, if Russia is so noce to help small nations, why it is difficult to understand the position of western countries when they want to support Georgia........Or Russia is better in moral than USA, or UK, or Germany, or France...................Do not look at problems only from the position of Putinizm............
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Frederic - 08-27-2008
independent Wrote:A question to all Georgians here
You all seems to be convinced that S-Ossetia and Abhkazia are and have been part of Georgia.
Kindly inform me how much Georgia has invested / financed spendings in those regions
during last ten years:
1) Education - what and how many billions USD
2) Public health care - what and how many billions USD
3) Culture - what and how many billions USD
4) Investments to Infrastructure - what has been built and budget
5) Infrastructure maintenance - what and how many billions USD
6) Investments to production - what and how many billions USD
I am not sure about concrete ammounts, but I will try to search for concrete data. But Georgia has really invested a lot into conflict zones. President has offered Abkhaziasns peace plan, where their autonomy was guaranteed and which envisaged establishment of free economic zone to ensure economic prosperity in the Region. In upper Abkhazia, controlled by Georgia, really very impressive rehabilitation projects have been implemented. New schools, amusment centers, youth camps, roads and so on. Unfortunatelly all this was destroyed by the russian army. As regards South Ossetia, the part of the region, where gorgians have had an access, it was flourishing. A number of large scale infrustructure, economical, educational and cultural projects have been implemented there. Ossetians from russsian controlled zones where coming to georgian controlled zones to have adequate health care. It was a vivid example what georgian state could offer to Ossetians, that`s why russians where so furious. Unfortunatelly, everything is destroyed and burned now. Peace plans presented to Abkhazia and Ossetia where mainly oriented on economic reabilitation, but plans of russia were different on the issue.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Yalta1945 - 08-27-2008
independent Wrote:have You ever thought that russians are as concerned about their own security than You are about Your countrys. I think It can be a little anxious when You are surrounded by NATO countries. Remember that the reason why NATO was formed was fighting against USSR. And now when there no more USSR - NATO is still trying to enlarge.
Remember the reason why NATO was formed against the USSR.
There is no such country as USSR, but the person who says this to be the biggest geopolitical catastrophe leads the way in Russian Federation, which behaviour also reminds the USSR style.
It can be anxious when you are surrounded by Russia that has been the oppressor of your nation for centuries. You may wonder: is there such country at all? Well, Lithuania has borders with Byelorussia in the east but Lukashenko cherishes his dream of joint state with Russia and he is no more than Kremlin’s vassal. But in the south-west Lithuanian neighbour is Russia – its highly militarized Kaliningrad district. This used to be Eastern Prussia which historically had nothing to do with Russia. It was occupied by Russians just because Churchill and Roosevelt allowed it. If anybody is interested to study a case of ethnic cleansing and genocide, then look what was done there. Moreover, Russia completely changed geographical names there. E.g. everyone in Lithuanian schools is taught that poet Donelaitis lived in Tolminkiemis (or Tollmingkehmen in German) but there is no such name on the contemporary map as Russians changed it drastically to Chistiye Prudi (has nothing to do with its original name). I still wait for our western friends to tell the full truth on the deal of Eastern Prussia and I would like it to be explained on terms of international law. Otherwise, it seems that Russia gets away with genocide and annexation if it manages to keep the conquered territory for a longer time.
But the most important is that you seem to forget about the rights of those new members of NATO and those seeking for the membership. So I return your question: haveYou ever thought that they are as concerned about their own security as Russians?
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Giovane - 08-27-2008
The main problem of many georgions on this forum is idea, that Russia always dreams to annex Georgia. But now let's think logikally. What for Russia Georgia???? Gergia hasn't an oil, gas and so on. Nowdays Georgia is a poor country,with bad economy. Their army it's just american and soros project.
Russian government always tried to keep peace in that region. How long Russia had asked georgians didn't do any provocations (fire,unmanned balloon under Ossetia etc)... Also Russia forgiven when georgians had beaten up russian peacekeeper.... Russia always said that only dialog could solve the problems....
Nowdays georgians should ask their government why Ossetia & Abkhazia are independent...
Also, the roots of problem in relationships between Georgia & Russian lay in Georgia's dream to be a part of nato. But in my opinion this dream belongs to USA. Russian actions are responsive. USA using georgia try
to bring to bay in corner Russia. Because Usa want to get rockets in geogia, ukraine,poland,,,
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Yalta1945 - 08-27-2008
independent Wrote:I must say that what really happened remains ambiguous for me also. I believe that big majority of people
in those countries didn't want to join USSR. But I think that e.g. in Estonia there might have happened
some kind of political treason of their own - and because of that, it kind of looked like everything was legal.
Are you kidding? Have you ever heard of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact? I am frankly puzzled by this comment of yours, as I suppose you are not a 90-years old communist who wants to die with his belief in “socialist revolutions”.
The relevant information is freely available to all researches. The Baltic States alone can provide with enough of documents on the history of Soviet occupation.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-27-2008
Yalta1945 Wrote:But the most important is that you seem to forget about the rights of those new members of NATO and those seeking for the membership. So I return your question: haveYou ever thought that they are as concerned about their own security as Russians?
It is clear to anyone - but as You see in Georgia it can have serious consequences to them.
So I would like to see a system where EU itself is a member of NATO rather than every
country itself. It might be easier for russians to accept - and they can't blame any country
individually.
Yalta1945 Wrote:Are you kidding? Have you ever heard of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact? I am frankly puzzled by this comment of yours, as I suppose you are not a 90-years old communist who wants to die with his belief in “socialist revolutions”.
The relevant information is freely available to all researches. The Baltic States alone can provide with enough of documents on the history of Soviet occupation.
As I say I believe that big majority of people in those countries didn't want to join = occupation
But I was only wondering how easily and without any resistance was it done. Thats why I think
that there might have been involved some kind of political treason.
For me it is strange when from Estonia came 3000 volunteers to support us at Winter War.
But in Estonia was done nothing when needed.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - serioja - 08-27-2008
Breaking News: US warships carry not only humanitarian aid to Georgia but tens of thousands of US passports to provide Ossetians and Abkhazs with. So these two independent nations now will have to consider which passport they prefer: Russian or US. It is so good when you have a choice. :haha :haha :haha
Germans started their campaign to issue German passports to the citizens of Kaliningrad.
Japanese passports are being dissiminated in Sakhalin.
Some states(not yet known exactly which) are printing passports for Chechen residents.
Universal recipe has been invented. Copyright: V.V. Putin (Though some people say copyright belongs to Mr. Hitler, who issued German passports in Sudetland and then invaded Czech Republic).
:haha :haha :haha :haha :haha
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - lashachochua - 08-27-2008
Giovane Wrote:The main problem of many georgions on this forum is idea, that Russia always dreams to annex Georgia. But now let's think logikally. What for Russia Georgia???? Gergia hasn't an oil, gas and so on. Nowdays Georgia is a poor country,with bad economy. Their army it's just american and soros project.
Russian government always tried to keep peace in that region. How long Russia had asked georgians didn't do any provocations (fire,unmanned balloon under Ossetia etc)... Also Russia forgiven when georgians had beaten up russian peacekeeper.... Russia always said that only dialog could solve the problems....
Nowdays georgians should ask their government why Ossetia & Abkhazia are independent...
Also, the roots of problem in relationships between Georgia & Russian lay in Georgia's dream to be a part of nato. But in my opinion this dream belongs to USA. Russian actions are responsive. USA using georgia try
to bring to bay in corner Russia. Because Usa want to get rockets in geogia, ukraine,poland,,,
Giovane, it is not our dream, this is our bad 200 years experience.......We are really trying to take care of another invasion from russia, we do not want to live under russian regime....We do not want imperialistic reasoning, we do not want undemocratic regime....Just we want to live in freedom from Russia, and in unity with abkhazians and ossetians, if not russia and their support to separatists governments, I nesure you that we had already managed to live together......But russia is supporting the separatists.......and it is making very difficult to solve the problem.........
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - chena - 08-27-2008
Giovane Wrote:The main problem of many georgions on this forum is idea, that Russia always dreams to annex Georgia. But now let's think logikally. What for Russia Georgia???? Gergia hasn't an oil, gas and so on. Nowdays Georgia is a poor country,with bad economy. Their army it's just american and soros project.
Russian government always tried to keep peace in that region. How long Russia had asked georgians didn't do any provocations (fire,unmanned balloon under Ossetia etc)... Also Russia forgiven when georgians had beaten up russian peacekeeper.... Russia always said that only dialog could solve the problems....
Nowdays georgians should ask their government why Ossetia & Abkhazia are independent...
Also, the roots of problem in relationships between Georgia & Russian lay in Georgia's dream to be a part of nato. But in my opinion this dream belongs to USA. Russian actions are responsive. USA using georgia try
to bring to bay in corner Russia. Because Usa want to get rockets in geogia, ukraine,poland,,,
Giovani,
Just wondering for how long have you studied Russian-Georgian relationship? And could you also name the sources of information.
One more question, why is it a crime to dream being part of NATO? and what kind of punishments are consider for such the crime (we saw what has been done so far, but is there more?) And by which international law Russia has been appointed as the executioner of sovereign countries?
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Salomo - 08-27-2008
Funny this story about passports :lol:
I will now clarify some points concerning Finland and Baltic states:
independent Wrote:If You know our history - then You also know that when we were at war
with USSR e.g. UK declare war with us. So we really got a lesson to avoid
getting between big countries. And that is what I'm trying to tell to Georgians.
You can't turn to other big country to avoid another. And that is what You have done.
But this was exactly what we also did – took of course the German side when they started the war against USSR in 1941. The Germans were our “brothers in arms” and it was a very natural choice in that situation. The war declaration of UK is true but was of minor significance.
independent Wrote:And my opinion is that You (Georgia) should first try to be member of EU.
It is much easier than joining to NATO - and Russia has no need to resist that.
Easier to join EU than to join NATO??? You should ask the Turks about that… :roll:
independent Wrote:EDITED: And If You can maintain good relationship against Russia ( it really is not that hard )
so You can always profit by beeing edge between EU and Russia.
Finland indeed has profited in this position, and it has not been too difficult. But there were periods when we did it even too carefully, having all kind of self-censure to which former president Kekkonen encouraged us to. The issue was not to criticise USSR too much. This phenomenon had also a name (given my Germans): “finlandisation”. I bet Georgia is very far from considering this solution
By the way, Georgians, what kind of relations did your former presidents have with Russia? I expect Shevardnadze to have had better ones than Gamsakhurdia, as having being USSR minister of foreign affairs, but perhaps not too close however, or…?
Yalta1945 Wrote:It was not so far ago when V.Putin claimed the Baltic States used to voluntarily join the Soviet Union. What can we expect from the president who talks such nonsense that even children in our kindergartens would laugh at? It sounds funny to our kids, but it is an insult to the elderly who suffered from the Soviet occupants, and it is also a sign to be worried of, if we look at the broader picture.
I fully agree. ?!? What INTEREST has Putin to promote this kind of view? Can the answer be something else than promoting the laughable view that “Russia has never invaded any other country” :haha :lol: :haha
independent Wrote:Whatever You think about Putin, You pretty sure admit that he is clever and calculating - and with that kind of leader it is much easier to deal with than with an stupid or too emotional leader.
I do not agree at all. Putin is too HARD, he is “everything for Russia and nothing for anybody else”. In case Russia more unanimously (in the world’s opinion) would have “started” the war, I am sure he would somehow explain it to having been necessary… :roll:
This said, I am also sure Saakashvili is not easy to deal with either. But Yeltsin, and Gorbachev, I think, were easier to deal with. Just have this feeling…
independent Wrote:I must say that what really happened remains ambiguous for me also. I believe that big majority of people in those countries didn't want to join USSR. But I think that e.g. in Estonia there might have happened some kind of political treason of their own - and because of that, it kind of looked like everything was legal.
I will tell you what happened. In May or June 1940, first USSR troops invaded Estonia, after an Sovietic ultimatum, they needed military bases etc. Then there should be new parliamentary elections in Estonia. A new “coalition party” was created, a kind of “Union of workers and peasants”, supporting the USSR. And in the elections, supervised by the USSR troops, other parties than this one mentioned were DENIED the right to having candidates!! So this Union of course “won” the elections (probably also the population were forced to vote), formed a new government, lead by the poet Johannes Varis, which soon applied for entrance to the USSR, which the USSR approved. Then opponents started to be carried to Siberia, and the rest of history we know… Soviet rule until 1991, with the exception of the German invasion 1941-44, which many Estonians naturally saw as a chance to regain liberty, in vain unfortunately.
I found this story (presented in the USSR style though) in the library of the Finno-Soviet friendship association (Suomi-Neuvostoliitto-Seura) in the 1980’s. Very similar kind of stories in Latvia and Lithuania. So, no wonder there is fear for Russia.
Plus, the occupation was not only Soviet communist imperialism, it was also Russian imperialism. Note that Russian became the (only?) official language. Thousands of Estonian people were brought to Siberia and were replaced by Russian-speaking people from other parts of USSR, maybe some other people also, but all spoke Russian. There had been Russians in Estonia before, of course, but not as big percentage than nowadays (26 %, plus 3 % Ukrainians and Belorussians). No wonder Estonians are not glad to see such a big minority of indeed innocent people, but from another culture, who often can not even speak Estonian.
Yalta1945 Wrote:E.g. everyone in Lithuanian schools is taught that poet Donelaitis lived in Tolminkiemis (or Tollmingkehmen in German) but there is no such name on the contemporary map as Russians changed it drastically to Chistiye Prudi (has nothing to do with its original name). I still wait for our western friends to tell the full truth on the deal of Eastern Prussia and I would like it to be explained on terms of international law. Otherwise, it seems that Russia gets away with genocide and annexation if it manages to keep the conquered territory for a longer time.
In lost Karelia close to Vyborg, the part belonging to Leningradskaya Oblast, it is the same. Town and village names (all except Vyborg/Viipuri) have been transformed completely, they are now Priozersk, Primorsk, Sovetsk, Pervomajskoye etc. But in the part belonging now to Karelian Autonomous Republic, the names are the same than before: Sortavala, Lahdenpohja, Pitkäranta, Suojärvi… just written with Russian alphabet with minor adjustments.
Yalta1945 Wrote:But the most important is that you seem to forget about the rights of those new members of NATO and those seeking for the membership. So I return your question: haveYou ever thought that they are as concerned about their own security as Russians?
In my opinion, it should be more understandable to the whole world, that this security issue should be more important to small countries than to big ones. Big countries do not really have threats on their existence (if not by nuclear war of course…), but small countries could easily be invaded and puppet regimes could be put on… Look what happened to Tibet in 1950’s. And Russian troops were close to Tbilisi! I can understand the fear of Georgians, Balts certainly do it too.
If Russia would not have such an imperialistic background, people would not hate it so much. The same of course applies also to USA and China.
Giovane Wrote:Their army it's just american and soros project.
Soros! Came to think, what view on him do Russians have in general?
independent Wrote:So I would like to see a system where EU itself is a member of NATO rather than every
country itself. It might be easier for russians to accept - and they can't blame any country
individually.
Now I agree totally!!
This would be a very good solution. Especially because of your last sentence. No country would need a separate opinion about NATO and be by Russians accused of anti-Russianism in case of joining, or by own nationalists accused of pro-Russianism in case of not joining. Certainly, in Georgia, if you by then are not in NATO yet, your next president suddenly would abandon NATO plans, you would accuse him/her of bending in front of the Russians… :roll:
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - EU1 - 08-27-2008
chena Wrote:[/quote]Giovane Wrote:The main problem of many georgions on this forum is idea, that Russia always dreams to annex Georgia. But now let's think logikally. What for Russia Georgia???? Gergia hasn't an oil, gas and so on. Nowdays Georgia is a poor country,with bad economy. Their army it's just american and soros project.
Russian government always tried to keep peace in that region. How long Russia had asked georgians didn't do any provocations (fire,unmanned balloon under Ossetia etc)... Also Russia forgiven when georgians had beaten up russian peacekeeper.... Russia always said that only dialog could solve the problems....
Nowdays georgians should ask their government why Ossetia & Abkhazia are independent...
Also, the roots of problem in relationships between Georgia & Russian lay in Georgia's dream to be a part of nato. But in my opinion this dream belongs to USA. Russian actions are responsive. USA using georgia try
to bring to bay in corner Russia. Because Usa want to get rockets in geogia, ukraine,poland,,,
Giovane, you are completely right!!!!!!!!!!!
chena Wrote:Giovani,
Just wondering for how long have you studied Russian-Georgian relationship? And could you also name the sources of information.
One more question, why is it a crime to dream being part of NATOand what kind of punishments are consider for such the crime (we saw what has been done so far, but is there more?)?
The crime is to murder civilians just to join NATO and you are already punished
chena Wrote:And by which international law Russia has been appointed as the executioner of sovereign countries?
Which international laws allow to commit genocide against the citizens of the country?
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - IamGEORGIA - 08-27-2008
Bravo Medve, Bravoo..
uper They made a huge mistake..By "recognizing independence" they announced that every minority who lives on the teritory of another country has right to be independent..congratulations then..Very soon we will see independent chechens..independent Ingushetia, independet part of Latvia, seperated Ukraine..wow great..
Lets starts giving goergian passport to chechens..(we have really good ties with their legal government in london)..then lets start ocupation of Chechnya, in order to defend our citizens, then lets occupy some other russian cities as well, because these cities will be kind of buffer zones and finaly recognize Chechnya..
Good plan ..isn it?
----
What will happen next?
Well, russian plan was to destroy Georgia to the condition, when we could not join NATO, they did not really care about Abkhazia or ossetia..But everyithing happened vise versa..inernational community is more consolidatede now over georgia, we have more support, and even more chance to join nato..so any way russian will have NATO neighbour..no matter want they it or not..
When they saw that thy could not reach their aim, decided to make very anti west step, recognizing georgian teritories as independent..
If they wanted to "help" these separatist region, why are they still stayinh in Poti, Zugdidi, and near Gori?
Fortunately our military capacity is not very much destroyed, they are kept in a safe place..
The only future for georgian regions, Abkhazia and Ossetia is to be under georgian rule..thats it..very simple truth..and it will happen very soon..sooner then we could imagine...
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - EU1 - 08-27-2008
IamGEORGIA Wrote:Bravo Medve, Bravoo..
They made a huge mistake..By "recognizing independence" they announced that every minority who lives on the teritory of another country has right to be independent..congratulations then..Very soon we will see independent chechens..independent Ingushetia, independet part of Latvia, seperated Ukraine..wow great
That's not Medvedev who started it, don't forget about Kosovo, Georgia regognised Kosovo as an independent country so I don't see any problem with recognition of S Ossetia and Abkhazia now
IamGEORGIA Wrote:Lets starts giving goergian passport to chechens..(we have really good ties with their legal government in london)..then lets start ocupation of Chechnya, in order to defend our citizens, then lets occupy some other russian cities as well, because these cities will be kind of buffer zones and finaly recognize Chechnya..
Good plan ..isn it?
I heard something like that proposed by the USA, Chechenya has refused
----
IamGEORGIA Wrote:Fortunately our military capacity is not very much destroyed, they are kept in a safe place..
Thank you for answering the question who began the war. Russia taught you a good lesson, you seem to be bad pupils
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - lashachochua - 08-27-2008
Georgia has not recognized the independence of Kosovo....just for info
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - IamGEORGIA - 08-27-2008
EU1 Wrote:IamGEORGIA Wrote:Bravo Medve, Bravoo..
They made a huge mistake..By "recognizing independence" they announced that every minority who lives on the teritory of another country has right to be independent..congratulations then..Very soon we will see independent chechens..independent Ingushetia, independet part of Latvia, seperated Ukraine..wow great
That's not Medvedev who started it, don't forget about Kosovo, Georgia regognised Kosovo as an independent country so I don't see any problem with recognition of S Ossetia and Abkhazia now
IamGEORGIA Wrote:Lets starts giving goergian passport to chechens..(we have really good ties with their legal government in london)..then lets start ocupation of Chechnya, in order to defend our citizens, then lets occupy some other russian cities as well, because these cities will be kind of buffer zones and finaly recognize Chechnya..
Good plan ..isn it?
I heard something like that proposed by the USA, Chechenya has refused
----
IamGEORGIA Wrote:Fortunately our military capacity is not very much destroyed, they are kept in a safe place..
Thank you for answering the question who began the war. Russia taught you a good lesson, you seem to be bad pupils
:haha
are all your words as true as these? :haha
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - russian999 - 08-27-2008
To all georgians. Guys, dont you realize that world is not fair place? Nobody, including USA and EU plays by rules. Its like in streets figting . You have to open your eys to reality - and start to befrend big guys, like Russia.