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+--- Thread: Georgia and South Ossetia at war (/thread-1703.html)
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - SiD - 08-29-2008
lashachochua Wrote:It is possible, but there are times when in deep heart somewhere we always beleive American Dream, but not russian dream...........I followed discussion that are your words.
About ideology you unfortunatly correct .
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Faw_Peter - 08-29-2008
lashachochua Wrote:Ok, we can think that for a small period of time they might be able to get back to their power, but from history we know that long-run real superpower were only those who managed to provide attractive ideology, like in the case of the USA.....
Communism had also been surviving for many years. Should be consider this ideology as being attractive?
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - lashachochua - 08-29-2008
independent Wrote:lashachochua Wrote:This story I know friend, I thought something political happened there.......You know I do not think that the financial crise was due to increasing house prices and problem like subprime....But the result was really bad for people due to increased interest rates......Now we miss one important point......Do you think that USA government controls huge not only american Financial companies.....USA still could not managed to control its own Financial Markets in the USA.....The markets of Financial derivatives are very complicated..... So the financial crises are the only crises that are not created by Governments......But official information surely largely effects financial markets......The mass effect is one of the main problems in such cases....Just everyone decided to invest because everyone was investing there......This is how in general we are getting to financial crises........So democracy is not connected to this problem....If not democracy do you beleive the this assian country managed the progress he made......
You right - I don't mean that it is US objective that it happens so. But the way they do the democratization
allways open that kind of chain reaction. And every single businessman knows it - and they utilize the
situation. It is so easy way to make money.
E.g. Thailand was doing better before than after that period. Or if You look Argentina - again a good example.
What you suggest to control every financial companies....This is free market....I do agree that financial markets should be regulated till some level....But this is market where people nevertheless splendid stocastic models, still make desicions based on expactations... You know there are theories of expactations in economics, tarional expactation adaptive expactation....But crises are due to people expactations...Yes governments cen effect these expactations but they are not sole determinant, you know....
I do not see the connection between financial crises and democratizetion.....
I can tell you that there are many economic papers, which say that there are positive correlation between democratization and economic growth, but casual relationship is not studied very well...we economists do not know democratization causes growth or growth couses democratization.....
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - lashachochua - 08-29-2008
Faw_Peter Wrote:lashachochua Wrote:Ok, we can think that for a small period of time they might be able to get back to their power, but from history we know that long-run real superpower were only those who managed to provide attractive ideology, like in the case of the USA.....
Communism had also been surviving for many years. Should be consider this ideology as being attractive?
Peter no, definately no........Just what I meant is that there is long run geopolitical cycles, Communism could manage to be with us only for hulf life of this cycle....Yes for people 50-60 years is a lot, but geopolitically it is not a long period, this is what I meant
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - lashachochua - 08-29-2008
SiD Wrote:lashachochua Wrote:It is possible, but there are times when in deep heart somewhere we always beleive American Dream, but not russian dream...........I followed discussion that are your words.
About ideology you unfortunatly correct .
oh....in this word I wanted to show that you can not beleive to that what does not exist? Do you understand, sorry if I could not manage to formulate my idea in the way you understand it...I am sorry once more
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Yalta1945 - 08-29-2008
Quote:independentSo “real danger” does not exist unless nobody turns to my personal ass.
Now everyone are calming down - and there is no real danger.
(Moya khata skrayu, nichego ne znayu - a Russian proverb.) p.s. When they will turn to you, it might appear to be too late for crying "danger!"
Quote:independentThese are the looniest of loony tunes. Revenge? 50 years ago? This is happening now! But let me guess…
So I really found it sad when some countries are making relations worse - because they think they
are legitimated to take revenge of something which has happened 50-70 years ago.
Every victim asking for the protection from the bandits is a headache for those who profit from business with the bandits, am I right?
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Faw_Peter - 08-29-2008
lashachochua Wrote:Peter no, definately no........Just what I meant is that there is long run geopolitical cycles, Communism could manage to be with us only for hulf life of this cycle....Yes for people 50-60 years is a lot, but geopolitically it is not a long period, this is what I meant
In this case, what other example can you bring, beside USA and its twofaced democracy?
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-29-2008
lashachochua Wrote:I do not see the connection between financial crises and democratizetion.....
I can tell you that there are many economic papers, which say that there are positive correlation between democratization and economic growth, but casual relationship is not studied very well...we economists do not know democratization causes growth or growth couses democratization.....
Ok I try to be more precise:
When People think what means to live American Dream, they think stability, growth and better economy.
At second phase (after opening markets and becoming pro-american) it seems to them they will get just
that. But that phase never last very long (10 years) - after that they will meet the reality:
- all companies belongs to foreigners
- they have huge debts of now almost worthless real estate to foreign banks
- they have lost the possibility to develop own industry
- future seems like slavery and there is now way out of situation.
American Dream ?
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - lashachochua - 08-29-2008
Faw_Peter Wrote:lashachochua Wrote:Peter no, definately no........Just what I meant is that there is long run geopolitical cycles, Communism could manage to be with us only for hulf life of this cycle....Yes for people 50-60 years is a lot, but geopolitically it is not a long period, this is what I meant
In this case, what other example can you bring, beside USA and its twofaced democracy?
In late history (I mean from industrialization ) there were three main countries: The first was Holland, but it was mostly economic superpower ( not for a long period) than Great Britain (Economic and political superpower) and the USA was the first which tried and mostly managed to be political, economic and ideological superpower..The soviet unien for some period was competing with USA, Soviet Unien has never been superpower.........
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - lashachochua - 08-29-2008
independent Wrote:lashachochua Wrote:I do not see the connection between financial crises and democratizetion.....
I can tell you that there are many economic papers, which say that there are positive correlation between democratization and economic growth, but casual relationship is not studied very well...we economists do not know democratization causes growth or growth couses democratization.....
Ok I try to be more precise:
When People think what means to live American Dream, they think stability, growth and better economy.
At second phase (after opening markets and becoming pro-american) it seems to them they will get just
that. But that phase never last very long (10 years) - after that they will meet the reality:
- all companies belongs to foreigners
- they have huge debts of now almost worthless real estate to foreign banks
- they have lost the possibility to develop own industry
- future seems like slavery and there is now way out of situation.
American Dream ?
You think these 5 tiger countries are facing the reality you just wrote... I do not think so...There is not any economic signs in these countries to beleive to such future....
Ok in economics scientists study natural experiments, compare
South Korea and North Korea
African post colonial countries and American Post colonial countries
Europe and Russia
In all cases we know where democratizatian led countries and where non-democratization led countries, They are clear historical examples.......
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - lashachochua - 08-29-2008
Yalta1945 Wrote:[quote="independentSo “real danger” does not exist unless nobody turns to my personal ass.
Now everyone are calming down - and there is no real danger.
(Moya khata skrayu, nichego ne znayu - a Russian proverb.)
"independent
So I really found it sad when some countries are making relations worse - because they think they
are legitimated to take revenge of something which has happened 50-70 years ago.
[/quote Wrote:These are the looniest of loony tunes. Revenge? 50 years ago? This is happening now! But let me guess…
Every victim asking for the protection from the bandits is a headache for those who profit from business with the bandits, am I right?
Yalta, welcome back....I completely agree with you
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-29-2008
lashachochua Wrote:You think these 5 tiger countries are facing the reality you just wrote... I do not think so...There is not any economic signs in these countries to beleive to such future....Standard of living in Thailand is not better today than it was late 80. Why ?
lashachochua Wrote:Ok in economics scientists study natural experiments, compare
South Korea and North Korea
African post colonial countries and American Post colonial countries
Europe and Russia
In all cases we know where democratizatian led countries and where non-democratization led countries, They are clear historical examples.......
You didn't get my point - there is democracy developed itself - and there is exported "democracy"
All countries who has passed the democratization natural way are going to survive well.
Because they do it naturally - it also means that they have time to strenghten their economies
and companies before rushing to free markets.
But those export target Countries - too quickly - will never develop further. And I believe that
is what is also meant to be the case.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - SiD - 08-29-2008
lashachochua Wrote:It is possible, but there are times when in deep heart somewhere we always beleive American Dream, but not russian dream...........
lashachochua Wrote:oh....in this word I wanted to show that you can not beleive to that what does not exist? Do you understand, sorry if I could not manage to formulate my idea in the way you understand it...I am sorry once more
Thanks for appologie.
you know there is one thing called faith.
And if russian dream does not exist that doesnt mean that anyone(sorry cant say exactly what you meant by we: you and independent, georgians, all mankind) believes in american dream deep in heart somewhere.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Giovane - 08-29-2008
Yalta, your advice to be less prickly,was offensive for me....
2)Chena, I wanted to fetch another opinion at the problem of "native' people... But also I can't tell you that your historicals facts are lies....[/quote]
Could you tell me what is your motivation to be a member of this forum? Mostly your answers are either offensive statements or “it is a lie”. I guess you should revise either motivation or membership of this forum.
There is no way to discuss anything if your only response is “it is a lie”, which is, btw, the easiest thing to do when you have NOTHING to say.
Bye Vania[/quote]
Ha-ha-ha I cried)))))
Chena!!!
1)If you'd rad my last post more attensivly you could find that I didn't say that you had said liyes. Be more attentive before smt. to wright.... :ange
Only you provides us ambivalen sources such as HRW (about this told independent)...
When I says that smb is lying it meas I've got reasons. If you'r pal Lasha wrights wrong quotes of russian writers, I tell him 'bout. And he yesterday promised me to show the source. So. I'm stii waiting....
2)I only asked you a question why you had missed a period of your history (1918-1921) and what did you answered me?????
You told me that I " have Nothing to say"... You know, I think, only you have nth to say....
You know, Leo Tolstoy once upon a time said : @There are 2 types of lying. 1-it's to tell wrong things, and 2 to be silenced about some things". Please think about this....
Lasha, you like a child, found some rough word and could't read all post till the end and in result understand why I this had written... Simply, no comments....
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-29-2008
Yalta1945 Wrote:Quote:independentSo “real danger” does not exist unless nobody turns to my personal ass.
Now everyone are calming down - and there is no real danger.
(Moya khata skrayu, nichego ne znayu - a Russian proverb.) p.s. When they will turn to you, it might appear to be too late for crying "danger!"
Quote:independentThese are the looniest of loony tunes. Revenge? 50 years ago? This is happening now! But let me guess…
So I really found it sad when some countries are making relations worse - because they think they
are legitimated to take revenge of something which has happened 50-70 years ago.
That concerns Baltic Countries - Yes they are trying to do just that.
Yalta1945 Wrote:Every victim asking for the protection from the bandits is a headache for those who profit from business with the bandits, am I right?
No but a crybaby is a crybaby
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - lashachochua - 08-29-2008
independent Wrote:lashachochua Wrote:You think these 5 tiger countries are facing the reality you just wrote... I do not think so...There is not any economic signs in these countries to beleive to such future....Standard of living in Thailand is not better today than it was late 80. Why ?
lashachochua Wrote:Ok in economics scientists study natural experiments, compare
South Korea and North Korea
African post colonial countries and American Post colonial countries
Europe and Russia
In all cases we know where democratizatian led countries and where non-democratization led countries, They are clear historical examples.......
You didn't get my point - there is democracy developed itself - and there is exported "democracy"
All countries who has passed the democratization natural way are going to survive well.
Because they do it naturally - it also means that they have time to strenghten their economies
and companies before rushing to free markets.
But those export target Countries - too quickly - will never develop further. And I believe that
is what is also meant to be the case.
I hope you do not think that in Korea and singapure democracy was developed natuarally. here are the data about Per Capita GDP in PPP USD
Korea
1981 - 2843
1992 - 9956
2007 - 24783
Singapur
1981 - 7979
1992 - 21512
2007 - 49713
Taiwan
1981 - 3829
1993 - 12474
2007 - 30126
What can you say, just bear in mind that in order GDP per capita to double it needs 10 years if average growth rate is 7%, 15 years if growth rate is 4%, your answer?
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-29-2008
lashachochua Wrote:Per Capita GDP in PPP USD
Korea
1981 - 2843
1992 - 9956
2007 - 24783
Singapur
1981 - 7979
1992 - 21512
2007 - 49713
Taiwan
1981 - 3829
1993 - 12474
2007 - 30126
What can you say, just bear in mind that in order GDP per capita to double it needs 10 years if average growth rate is 7%, 15 years if growth rate is 4%, your answer?
Singapur and Taiwan are really bad excamples - Singapur is an old Euroasian city and have really developed
naturally. Taiwan - again long long history and economy of its own.
Korea - I realy can't say (not familiar for me). Might be a good example.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - lashachochua - 08-29-2008
Giovane Wrote:Yalta, your advice to be less prickly,was offensive for me....
2)Chena, I wanted to fetch another opinion at the problem of "native' people... But also I can't tell you that your historicals facts are lies....
Could you tell me what is your motivation to be a member of this forum? Mostly your answers are either offensive statements or “it is a lie”. I guess you should revise either motivation or membership of this forum.
There is no way to discuss anything if your only response is “it is a lie”, which is, btw, the easiest thing to do when you have NOTHING to say.
Bye Vania[/quote]
Ha-ha-ha I cried)))))
Chena!!!
1)If you'd rad my last post more attensivly you could find that I didn't say that you had said liyes. Be more attentive before smt. to wright.... :ange
Only you provides us ambivalen sources such as HRW (about this told independent)...
When I says that smb is lying it meas I've got reasons. If you'r pal Lasha wrights wrong quotes of russian writers, I tell him 'bout. And he yesterday promised me to show the source. So. I'm stii waiting....
2)I only asked you a question why you had missed a period of your history (1918-1921) and what did you answered me?????
You told me that I " have Nothing to say"... You know, I think, only you have nth to say....
You know, Leo Tolstoy once upon a time said : @There are 2 types of lying. 1-it's to tell wrong things, and 2 to be silenced about some things". Please think about this....
Lasha, you like a child, found some rough word and could't read all post till the end and in result understand why I this had written... Simply, no comments....[/quote]
Giovane,
Once more I told you as soon as I can manage to visist russian web-site I promised and I will provide the source for Dostoevsky, I will try to provide also sources for other classics........
What about my childness....You have several times said one and the same thing, just what putin told in his interview, what you just missed is that he cold everyone follower of stalin who are claiming that S. Ossetia and Abkhazia are Georgian places, bacause georgians came there in 1930. I provided sources which are issed in 1860s and 1890s, there are composition of population in Abhkhazia,so one more times I ask you see that comment and stop bullshiting.....Yalta is may only person here who does not insult anyone, when you told the thing you told to him, just I decided that it was time to reply you. So be carefull do not insult people and you will not be insulted....But anyway sorry for insult
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-29-2008
lashachochua Wrote:What can you say, just bear in mind that in order GDP per capita to double it needs 10 years if average growth rate is 7%, 15 years if growth rate is 4%, your answer?
Might be You should better compare Singapure against Thailand - there You can see some
real difference between democracy and exported one
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - Yalta1945 - 08-29-2008
lashachochua Wrote:Yalta, welcome back....I completely agree with youIt is an exeptional case. The poll in Latvia shows that 80% of the population is very concerned about Georgia. I am presently in Riga and I got a lot from the Latvian TV on Georgia. They had their camera in Georgia. They were free to go everywhere except for some zones under Russian control. So they were not allowed to visit Tskhinvali. I know CNN negotiated with Russians and then they were let in. But that’s CNN. Pity, some “independent” journalists (from Britain) were played suckers by Russians: they laughed about Georgians who reported Russian troops at Gori (Russians were clearly present on the flanks as far as I understood but I am not sure about details). These journalists published such material but Russians sealed the city. Many journalist gathered near the city (but Russians did not let them in) – this was very well documented by TV journalists. Irregulars were around terrorizing journalists. I can only guess what was going on inside Gori. Finally, they started shooting and journalist had to run away. These are exceptionally worrisome events now. However, tomorrow I hafto leave, and later I’ll most probably have no time for this forum. It’s the last night.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - lashachochua - 08-29-2008
independent Wrote:lashachochua Wrote:Per Capita GDP in PPP USD
Korea
1981 - 2843
1992 - 9956
2007 - 24783
Singapur
1981 - 7979
1992 - 21512
2007 - 49713
Taiwan
1981 - 3829
1993 - 12474
2007 - 30126
What can you say, just bear in mind that in order GDP per capita to double it needs 10 years if average growth rate is 7%, 15 years if growth rate is 4%, your answer?
Singapur and Taiwan are really bad excamples - Singapur is an old Euroasian city and have really developed
naturally. Taiwan - again long long history and economy of its own.
Korea - I realy can't say (not familiar for me). Might be a good example.
Korea is classical example also Taiwan look in 25 years GDP increased approximately 10 times, this is really progress........Also singapure....All these countries started developing after 1960 when they decided to democrataize........
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - independent - 08-29-2008
lashachochua Wrote:Korea is classical example also Taiwan look in 25 years GDP increased approximately 10 times, this is really progress........Also singapure....All these countries started developing after 1960 when they decided to democrataize........
They have make good progress, but their democracy is their own - not exported by US.
And Singapure was rich when US was still an acriculture.
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - lashachochua - 08-29-2008
Quote:Standard of living in Thailand is not better today than it was late 80. Why ?
The sme information for Thailand, Per capita GDP in USD PPP, world economic outlook
Thailand
1980 - 1090
1994 - 4223
1996 - 5012
2007 - 7900
So?....
You can not compare Singapure and thailand and say that in Singapure democracy was not exported....In both countries democracy was exported....And also it is not right to say that if in both countries it was exported than why it is that singapure is far more developed?...This is the same question as to ask Why is that USA is more developed that f.x. UK, in both countries democracy was developed natuarally....There is very simple answer. Democracy does not equal to development, devlopment is more complex
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - lashachochua - 08-29-2008
independent Wrote:lashachochua Wrote:Korea is classical example also Taiwan look in 25 years GDP increased approximately 10 times, this is really progress........Also singapure....All these countries started developing after 1960 when they decided to democrataize........
They have make good progress, but their democracy is their own - not exported by US.
Quote:And Singapure was rich when US was still an acriculture.
Can you tell me why industrialization happened in UK and not in China, nevertheless to the fact that china had more splendid technology and history of technological progress.....There was no democracy in all these countries even in Japan till 1950-1960
Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war - lashachochua - 08-29-2008
Yalta1945 Wrote:lashachochua Wrote:Yalta, welcome back....I completely agree with youIt is an exeptional case. The poll in Latvia shows that 80% of the population is very concerned about Georgia. I am presently in Riga and I got a lot from the Latvian TV on Georgia. They had their camera in Georgia. They were free to go everywhere except for some zones under Russian control. So they were not allowed to visit Tskhinvali. I know CNN negotiated with Russians and then they were let in. But that’s CNN. Pity, some “independent” journalists (from Britain) were played suckers by Russians: they laughed about Georgians who reported Russian troops at Gori (Russians were clearly present on the flanks as far as I understood but I am not sure about details). These journalists published such material but Russians sealed the city. Many journalist gathered near the city (but Russians did not let them in) – this was very well documented by TV journalists. Irregulars were around terrorizing journalists. I can only guess what was going on inside Gori. Finally, they started shooting and journalist had to run away. These are exceptionally worrisome events now. However, tomorrow I hafto leave, and later I’ll most probably have no time for this forum. It’s the last night.
we georgians will be always thanksfull to latvian people......Interviews of Putin clearly shows that they were ready for invasion....Can PM talk about facts that he was told but he does not know whether they are correct or not....This is propaganda.....I hope PM Putin is not sitting in this forum and making his speeches based on Giovane, SiD, and several other guys