Quote:The USA may have a good internal democratic tradition,but no first world government have worked harder than the US government to subvert democracy in other nations. Examples of US perfidy include:
(1) UK-USA overthrow of the democratically elected Iranian Prime Minister Mossadegh in favour of Pro-US royal dictator Shah Reza Pahlavi in 1950s.
(2)The US-Belgian overthrow of the democratically elected government of Patrice Lumumba of D.R. Congo and intalling the dictator Mobutu Seseko in his place in 1960s.
(3)US government support for Latin American dictators and CIA training their blood-thirsty security forces to murder people in the 1970s.
(4)US-apartheid South African sponsorship of murderous rebel groups in Angola and Mozambique against their democratic governments in the name of fighting communism in the 1970s
(5)covertly backing the extremely racist anti-democratic regime in South Africa and vetoing United Nations resolutions condemning apartheid a shocking 16 times.
(6)supporting backward Gulf Arab monarchical dictators in exchange for oil supply.
(7) US-UK support of the dictator of Uzbekistan who specializes in boiling political opponents to death until the continuous stream of embarrassing revelations of the brutal nature of the Uzbek dictator by the rebellious British Ambassador in Tashkent forced USA and UK to speak out against abuses they had condoned for 4 years in exchange for the strategic military bases near Afghanistan and more importantly, Russia. (The rebellious British ambassador, Craig Murray, was later sacked for refusing to keep quiet.)
(8)current Bush-Cheney support for the dictator of oil-rich Azerbaijan even as US government "champions" democracy in Georgia and condemns the "autocratic" Russian government...

russian999 Wrote:

Quote:The USA may have a good internal democratic tradition,but no first world government have worked harder than the US government to subvert democracy in other nations. Examples of US perfidy include:
(1) UK-USA overthrow of the democratically elected Iranian Prime Minister Mossadegh in favour of Pro-US royal dictator Shah Reza Pahlavi in 1950s.
(2)The US-Belgian overthrow of the democratically elected government of Patrice Lumumba of D.R. Congo and intalling the dictator Mobutu Seseko in his place in 1960s.
(3)US government support for Latin American dictators and CIA training their blood-thirsty security forces to murder people in the 1970s.
(4)US-apartheid South African sponsorship of murderous rebel groups in Angola and Mozambique against their democratic governments in the name of fighting communism in the 1970s
(5)covertly backing the extremely racist anti-democratic regime in South Africa and vetoing United Nations resolutions condemning apartheid a shocking 16 times.
(6)supporting backward Gulf Arab monarchical dictators in exchange for oil supply.
(7) US-UK support of the dictator of Uzbekistan who specializes in boiling political opponents to death until the continuous stream of embarrassing revelations of the brutal nature of the Uzbek dictator by the rebellious British Ambassador in Tashkent forced USA and UK to speak out against abuses they had condoned for 4 years in exchange for the strategic military bases near Afghanistan and more importantly, Russia. (The rebellious British ambassador, Craig Murray, was later sacked for refusing to keep quiet.)
(8)current Bush-Cheney support for the dictator of oil-rich Azerbaijan even as US government "champions" democracy in Georgia and condemns the "autocratic" Russian government...

That is nice list of USA double mindedness. I dont say it is bad - it is just real pragmatic politic.So, georgians, be aware - you are just one of the many cards in hands of Bush. He will damp you as soon, as Russia will present for US more nice deal ( for example - support over Iran nuke).

Quote:Oh me oh my – why is the list so short!? You have not even mentioned the imperialistic role of “United Fruit Company” we should thank for suggesting the term “banana republic” . It seems you, Russian guys, out of your sheer envy of the US are trying to mimic and outdo them in their bad patterns of international behaviour.
Falling victims of your own “tit-for-tat” thinking which has undergone practically no change since the end of the Cold War, you are on the track for backing the new Banana Republic of Abkhazia and the Banana Republic of South Ossetia, even though French President Nicolas Sarkozy in the name of the EU supported the 6-Point Peace Plan, the last point added by Russians themselves being “the start of an international discussion over the future status of South Ossetia and Abkhazia“. The EU represented by N.Sarkozy thus provided much better option for South Ossetia an Abkhazia than your leaders would then choose to unilaterally implement. Why did they not take an opportunity, instead of that putting the credibility of the EU (who mediated the agreement) and the US (who had especially supported Georgia in its efforts to become fully integrated part of the West) at risk? I guess the reason is the following:
Slapping and spitting the West at the face
Brings Russians proudness, glory, and grace.
Approval ratings of Putin-Medvedev have climbed up in Russia – and this is all they need.
1. You cannot simply justify your wrongdoings by someone else’s wrongdoings.
2. It would be fairer if you submitted the similar list of dirty deeds of your own country in the years you mentioned – just for the purpose of comparative analysis. And if you explained the reality and logic of the Cold War era. Do you admit you are all stuck in it?
3. You seem to ignore the huge potential of the USA and the world in general for change.
My friend in the US travelled thousands of kilometres to Washington to protest against the war in Iraq before it started. What have you done in your country for peace? Isn’t it so that only such organization as “Nashi” (called Putin’s Jugend) blossom in nowadays’ Russia? How much freedom is there still left in Russia?

Yalta1945 Wrote:Oh me oh my – why is the list so short!? You have not even mentioned the imperialistic role of “United Fruit Company” we should thank for suggesting the term “banana republic” :-) . It seems you, Russian guys, out of your sheer envy of the US are trying to mimic and outdo them in their bad patterns of international behaviour.
Falling victims of your own “tit-for-tat” thinking which has undergone practically no change since the end of the Cold War, you are on the track for backing the new Banana Republic of Abkhazia and the Banana Republic of South Ossetia, even though French President Nicolas Sarkozy in the name of the EU supported the 6-Point Peace Plan, the last point added by Russians themselves being “the start of an international discussion over the future status of South Ossetia and Abkhazia“. The EU represented by N.Sarkozy thus provided much better option for South Ossetia an Abkhazia than your leaders would then choose to unilaterally implement. Why did they not take an opportunity, instead of that putting the credibility of the EU (who mediated the agreement) and the US (who had especially supported Georgia in its efforts to become fully integrated part of the West) at risk? I guess the reason is the following:
Slapping and spitting the West at the face
Brings Russians proudness, glory, and grace.
Approval ratings of Putin-Medvedev have climbed up in Russia – and this is all they need.
1. You cannot simply justify your wrongdoings by someone else’s wrongdoings.
2. It would be fairer if you submitted the similar list of dirty deeds of your own country in the years you mentioned – just for the purpose of comparative analysis. And if you explained the reality and logic of the Cold War era. Do you admit you are all stuck in it?
3. You seem to ignore the huge potential of the USA and the world in general for change.
My friend in the US travelled thousands of kilometres to Washington to protest against the war in Iraq before it started. What have you done in your country for peace? Isn’t it so that only such organization as “Nashi” (called Putin’s Jugend) blossom in nowadays’ Russia? How much freedom is there still left in Russia?

Quote:Slapping and spitting the West at the face

Hakan G Wrote:France is doing a good job there, what are you talking about?

russian999 Wrote:Common, dont you realize, that politic is just "Slapping and spitting" and "Petting and smiling" as well? There is no place for romantic-ideologic Saakashvilys speeches. Politic is absolutly dirty place. Russia and USA just playng in this dirty game, but georgians seriously talking about some "ideals". Open your mind - europe allready dumped you - and that is very realistic move.

Yalta1945 Wrote:No, the point was you were just too irrational.
1. A social creature has to learn some basic set of rules of conduct in order to get carrots and avoid sticks in a society. Provided rules are stated clearly, it makes easy for a rational individual to comprehend them and learn how to behave oneself. They are needed for organizing individuals into communities and keeping those communities in healthy conditions. The game of community organizing means politics. Communities might be different (local, national or international) but the code of conduct is the base of politics. Without laws it is irrational barbarism, not politics. Barbarians and outlaws are not welcome to the club of decent members of a community.
2. Russian political elite demonstrates the patterns of quite infantile behaviour. You have the state of a bear size but the whims and tantrums of your politicians match the development of a pre-school child.
3. Socializing on the ideas a la Machiavelli complicates your development even further. I would advise to read “Opravdaniye dobra” by Solovyev, V.S. for the sake of change.

Quote: by Yalta1945 on Today, 00:16

russian999 wrote:
Common, dont you realize, that politic is just "Slapping and spitting" and "Petting and smiling" as well? There is no place for romantic-ideologic Saakashvilys speeches. Politic is absolutly dirty place. Russia and USA just playng in this dirty game, but georgians seriously talking about some "ideals". Open your mind - europe allready dumped you - and that is very realistic move.

No, the point was you were just too irrational.
1. A social creature has to learn some basic set of rules of conduct in order to get carrots and avoid sticks in a society. Provided rules are stated clearly, it makes easy for a rational individual to comprehend them and learn how to behave oneself. They are needed for organizing individuals into communities and keeping those communities in healthy conditions. The game of community organizing means politics. Communities might be different (local, national or international) but the code of conduct is the base of politics. Without laws it is irrational barbarism, not politics. Barbarians and outlaws are not welcome to the club of decent members of a community.
2. Russian political elite demonstrates the patterns of quite infantile behaviour. You have the state of a bear size but the whims and tantrums of your politicians match the development of a pre-school child.
3. Socializing on the ideas a la Machiavelli complicates your development even further. I would advise to read “Opravdaniye dobra” by Solovyev, V.S. for the sake of change.

SiD Wrote:Why US are welcome than? All you said is bullshit. They are treating international law how they want and no one did anything to stop them. Your group is just tribe were strongest rules. And US are teaches how to behave, with thier bombs, rockets and troops. We want community of mutual beneficial cooperation not US dictatorship.

russian999 Wrote:Okey, keep on dreaming. Its even better for Russia. Because such idealistics people beeng hit by concrete wall of reality became best friend in future. Soon you will get some feeling, that in Asia there only one set of rules - power. And after Obama will cut money flow from USA - you will understand, that to be friendly with russian much better, than not.

Terry Wrote:Is it true that Saakashvili announced peace with the opposite parties?

Yalta1945 Wrote:It‘s a hypocrisy again. Americans gave you, Russian imperialists, all you could fancy about, so you should be thankful to them, not hypo-critical. Wasn’t it Bush, one of the most unpopular American presidents in his own country now, who saw a warm friend in the cold eyes of Putin? By giving Western credits and respect to the person whose reflexes had been perniciously affected by too long and too bad internalization within the KGB system, he supported the imperialistic leader. Thanks to Bush, Russian imperialism got a chance for strengthening both economically and politically. Putin was let to “blot out in lavatories” Chechen rebellions together with civilian population in Chechnya while facing only flimsy objections made by the Americans and Europeans. Bush’s “war on terror” is criticized even by Brzezinski whom your media traditionally present as an American hawk, biased in all his views on Russia. Bush Jr. made Putin a partner in this war. You could hardly have a better ally in heating anti-American sentiments in Europe and worldwide, and you know how it is important for your imperialism to have Europe move astray. You ought to be thankful to America for high oil prices, too. You have enjoyed tremendous benefits from the economic cooperation with the West. Now Russian imperialists are completely unfair when they use cracked Microsoft software on their computers with American processors to complain on the internet about all the best service Bush rendered to them.
After all, isn’t it the foreign policy of Bush’s administration that made your further move in Caucasus possible..? Oh, even George Soros put Bush and Putin on par as his enemies!
Russians were impotent or deliberately inhuman when they did not stop Milosevic. Then they could not contribute less for the Kosovo problem (ed.: solvation).
In general, Russia has been not cooperative but following the Cold War logic. Now, instead of pointing to the norms of international law that you might suppose were breached by Western countries, and explaining how it relates to what Russia is doing now, you talk as if all international law has become void. You should be able to understand that without any respect to international law all your international business would halt immediately.
If you do want a cooperative community you must stick to international law. For this purpose you will need to get rid of your imperialism and traditional hostility to the West, promote democracy in your country, and be happy when your neighbours strive to enhance their democracy.

Quote:It‘s a hypocrisy again. Americans gave you, Russian imperialists, all you could fancy about, so you should be thankful to them, not hypo-critical. Wasn’t it Bush, one of the most unpopular American presidents in his own country now, who saw a warm friend in the cold eyes of Putin? By giving Western credits and respect to the person whose reflexes had been perniciously affected by too long and too bad internalization within the KGB system, he supported the imperialistic leader. Thanks to Bush, Russian imperialism got a chance for strengthening both economically and politically. Putin was let to “blot out in lavatories” Chechen rebellions together with civilian population in Chechnya while facing only flimsy objections made by the Americans and Europeans. Bush’s “war on terror” is criticized even by Brzezinski whom your media traditionally present as an American hawk, biased in all his views on Russia. Bush Jr. made Putin a partner in this war. You could hardly have a better ally in heating anti-American sentiments in Europe and worldwide, and you know how it is important for your imperialism to have Europe move astray. You ought to be thankful to America for high oil prices, too. You have enjoyed tremendous benefits from the economic cooperation with the West. Now Russian imperialists are completely unfair when they use cracked Microsoft software on their computers with American processors to complain on the internet about all the best service Bush rendered to them.
After all, isn’t it the foreign policy of Bush’s administration that made your further move in Caucasus possible..? Oh, even George Soros put Bush and Putin on par as his enemies!
Russians were impotent or deliberately inhuman when they did not stop Milosevic. Then they could not contribute less for the Kosovo problem (ed.: solvation).
In general, Russia has been not cooperative but following the Cold War logic. Now, instead of pointing to the norms of international law that you might suppose were breached by Western countries, and explaining how it relates to what Russia is doing now, you talk as if all international law has become void. You should be able to understand that without any respect to international law all your international business would halt immediately.
If you do want a cooperative community you must stick to international law. For this purpose you will need to get rid of your imperialism and traditional hostility to the West, promote democracy in your country, and be happy when your neighbours strive to enhance their democracy.

SiD Wrote:Wasnt Kosovo recognize despite all our efforts? Such cooperation is worth nothing.

russian999 Wrote:

Quote:It‘s a hypocrisy again. Americans gave you, Russian imperialists, all you could fancy about, so you should be thankful to them, not hypo-critical. Wasn’t it Bush, one of the most unpopular American presidents in his own country now, who saw a warm friend in the cold eyes of Putin? By giving Western credits and respect to the person whose reflexes had been perniciously affected by too long and too bad internalization within the KGB system, he supported the imperialistic leader. Thanks to Bush, Russian imperialism got a chance for strengthening both economically and politically. Putin was let to “blot out in lavatories” Chechen rebellions together with civilian population in Chechnya while facing only flimsy objections made by the Americans and Europeans. Bush’s “war on terror” is criticized even by Brzezinski whom your media traditionally present as an American hawk, biased in all his views on Russia. Bush Jr. made Putin a partner in this war. You could hardly have a better ally in heating anti-American sentiments in Europe and worldwide, and you know how it is important for your imperialism to have Europe move astray. You ought to be thankful to America for high oil prices, too. You have enjoyed tremendous benefits from the economic cooperation with the West. Now Russian imperialists are completely unfair when they use cracked Microsoft software on their computers with American processors to complain on the internet about all the best service Bush rendered to them.
After all, isn’t it the foreign policy of Bush’s administration that made your further move in Caucasus possible..? Oh, even George Soros put Bush and Putin on par as his enemies!
Russians were impotent or deliberately inhuman when they did not stop Milosevic. Then they could not contribute less for the Kosovo problem (ed.: solvation).
In general, Russia has been not cooperative but following the Cold War logic. Now, instead of pointing to the norms of international law that you might suppose were breached by Western countries, and explaining how it relates to what Russia is doing now, you talk as if all international law has become void. You should be able to understand that without any respect to international law all your international business would halt immediately.
If you do want a cooperative community you must stick to international law. For this purpose you will need to get rid of your imperialism and traditional hostility to the West, promote democracy in your country, and be happy when your neighbours strive to enhance their democracy.

This is your absolut illusion. I would suggest to you and to my georgian friends go to USA and work there for few years. I was there for long time. I tell you - your disillusion about USA will go to full size after 1 year of life in USA.
You will find out that in USA law is diffrent for poor and rich. You will find out, that 85% of Americans hate Bush.You will understand, that what is matter in USA - money. And after you will be robbed in black area - you will understand - USA is not the safe place. Dont be like children, who believing in ideal place on the earth.There is no such a place.

Yalta1945 Wrote:

SiD Wrote:Wasnt Kosovo recognize despite all our efforts? Such cooperation is worth nothing.

What would your efforts lead to? I guess you need another topic, if you tell us nothing on how this argument relates to South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Quote:Your antiamericanism makes you blind. (Strangly enough, you also think your personal experience in America matters more than that of others. Different people go to America and different return from it.)
Have you ever noticed there are also other nations except Americans and Russians?

russian999 Wrote:

Quote:Your antiamericanism makes you blind. (Strangely enough, you also think your personal experience in America matters more than that of others. Different people go to America and different return from it.)
Have you ever noticed there are also other nations except Americans and Russians?

That is realism, not antiamericanism. I would guess, that you never was in USA? How you can tell, that Bush was trying to help Russia? You can talk with unbiased americans and they will tell you, that America headed in wrong direction. So, how you can talk about right course of USA administration, when you never talk with average american person.? It is very strange - you have big illusion about USA. And if you by yourself or american administration will not crash this illusion - than american voters or russian government will disillusion you.

russian999 Wrote:I noticed there are also other nations except Americans and Russians. But all antirussian bullshit coming to other nation guess from where? Right, from USA

Quote:Touching an elephant by its tale and then telling it’s a snake is an illusion – not realism.
From your comments one can imagine you were possibly robbed by some black (afro-) American immediately after your arrival to the USA, then you were sitting long in dust on the outskirts of town until somebody very critical of the Bush administration picked you up. (I did not care what you were doing in America – it’s your business, not mine.) It’s normal for Americans to criticize their own leaders. That’s their first step towards making changes. That’s so because they have democracy and it works. It is a very big difference from Russia.
I have already mentioned on this forum of some of friends of mine in America to travel thousands of kilometres (actually, miles; and forgive my British “kilometre” ) to Washington to protest against war against Iraq. His behaviour is a norm for America but it is an exception now for Russia.
I think we know much better what the US is. As for your personal inquires, I shall not answer them, as I am afraid, you will then ask the number of my bank account, too.

russian999 Wrote:

Quote:Touching an elephant by its tale and then telling it’s a snake is an illusion – not realism.
From your comments one can imagine you were possibly robbed by some black (afro-) American immediately after your arrival to the USA, then you were sitting long in dust on the outskirts of town until somebody very critical of the Bush administration picked you up. (I did not care what you were doing in America – it’s your business, not mine.) It’s normal for Americans to criticize their own leaders. That’s their first step towards making changes. That’s so because they have democracy and it works. It is a very big difference from Russia.
I have already mentioned on this forum of some of friends of mine in America to travel thousands of kilometres (actually, miles; and forgive my British “kilometre” ) to Washington to protest against war against Iraq. His behaviour is a norm for America but it is an exception now for Russia.
I think we know much better what the US is. As for your personal inquires, I shall not answer them, as I am afraid, you will then ask the number of my bank account, too.

Okey, I got you.I dont think,that you really have expirience with real democratic values.But this is not your fault - you just never was there. Then just listen to me, I was traveling all over USA for 7 years. My job was salesman. Salesman have to talk to many people. And I had talk with tooooo many people. And my opinion is not just picked up from newspaper.
So, there are many good things in America. I am not antiamericanist. I like USA. But this whole democratic things are not so much usefull for Russia and post-soviet countrys. Look- I am not against USA and West. But I am AGAINST going western way by Russia and post-soviet countrys.You see the difference?
You know why? Because Russia and and post-soviet countrys inherently das not have respect for morality. But they have respect for power. So, any western democratic metod will bring only disorder to us.We HAVE to go autoritarian way.And, if some guys want us to go western way - we will ignore them not because we are bully, but because we want just to survive us a country.

RusNeko Wrote:Eka: osetia and abhazia didn't want to be in your boat - so now theyre free. Now you can go your own way of development, of democratisation. And we will go our own way, we never wanted to repress you. Just one little thing we ask: dont kill. Dont threaten anybody. Please.