M.Helen Wrote:Is it possible that in the next following years South Ossetia is recognized by other countries than Russia? I am not speaking about Cuba or other Russia's allies, I'm talking about European states. What if tomorrow Russia will hand in an ultimatum making Europeans recognize S. Ossetia in order to maintain gas supplying.

SiD Wrote:

M.Helen Wrote:Is it possible that in the next following years South Ossetia is recognized by other countries than Russia? I am not speaking about Cuba or other Russia's allies, I'm talking about European states. What if tomorrow Russia will hand in an ultimatum making Europeans recognize S. Ossetia in order to maintain gas supplying.

That wont happen for sure. It could be good if european countrys will recognize S Osetia and Abkchazia but no one would want to force them to do that.

Hakan G Wrote:Why then did Russia recognise the independence of S.Ossetia? I mean what it is the point in all this, what are its interests or benefits as long as it does not care if other states will do the same thing?
I tink Russia should have some ways to influence other stes, otherwise the whole situation is odd.

SiD Wrote:And if Russia recognizes S Osetia as independent it means Russia can have international relationship with this country. For example treaty of mutual protection. I doubt anyone who dont recognizes S Osetia will ignore such treaty.

Yalta1945 Wrote:

SiD Wrote:And if Russia recognizes S Osetia as independent it means Russia can have international relationship with this country. For example treaty of mutual protection. I doubt anyone who dont recognizes S Osetia will ignore such treaty.

I have no doubt they will ignore it de jure. And if they ignore it de jure, it will have considerable impact on the matters de facto.

Yalta1945 Wrote:Saakashvili saved Georgia from coup, former Putin aide says
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://euobserver.com/24/26921">http://euobserver.com/24/26921</a><!-- m -->

Moscow Began Preparing for Georgian War Four Years Ago, Illarionov Says (by Paul Goble)
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories/caucasus_crisis/index/cc_articles/goble/goble_2008/goble_1008/goble_1001_fight.html">http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories/ca ... fight.html</a><!-- m -->

Illarionov Commenter Proves Russia started the Georgia Conflict
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://larussophobe.wordpress.com/2008/09/11/illarionov-commenter-proves-russia-started-the-georgia-conflict/">http://larussophobe.wordpress.com/2008/ ... -conflict/</a><!-- m -->

Illarionov: Thirteen Conclusions about the War
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.robertamsterdam.com/2008/08/illarionov_thirteen_conclusion.htm">http://www.robertamsterdam.com/2008/08/ ... lusion.htm</a><!-- m -->

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://djdrive.livejournal.com/99584.html">http://djdrive.livejournal.com/99584.html</a><!-- m --> (Russian)

А. Илларионов: «Россия сама подготовила и начала войну против Грузии»
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.kavkazcenter.com/russ/content/2008/09/30/61325.shtml">http://www.kavkazcenter.com/russ/conten ... 1325.shtml</a><!-- m -->

Quote:The war confirmed once more the validity of the most important principles of conduct of morally conscious Russian citizens in relation to the present regime: do not believe, do not fear, do not beg, and do not cooperate.

SiD Wrote:

Yalta1945 Wrote:Saakashvili saved Georgia from coup, former Putin aide says
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://euobserver.com/24/26921">http://euobserver.com/24/26921</a><!-- m -->

Moscow Began Preparing for Georgian War Four Years Ago, Illarionov Says (by Paul Goble)
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories/caucasus_crisis/index/cc_articles/goble/goble_2008/goble_1008/goble_1001_fight.html">http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories/ca ... fight.html</a><!-- m -->

Illarionov Commenter Proves Russia started the Georgia Conflict
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://larussophobe.wordpress.com/2008/09/11/illarionov-commenter-proves-russia-started-the-georgia-conflict/">http://larussophobe.wordpress.com/2008/ ... -conflict/</a><!-- m -->

Illarionov: Thirteen Conclusions about the War
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.robertamsterdam.com/2008/08/illarionov_thirteen_conclusion.htm">http://www.robertamsterdam.com/2008/08/ ... lusion.htm</a><!-- m -->

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://djdrive.livejournal.com/99584.html">http://djdrive.livejournal.com/99584.html</a><!-- m --> (Russian)

А. Илларионов: «Россия сама подготовила и начала войну против Грузии»
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.kavkazcenter.com/russ/content/2008/09/30/61325.shtml">http://www.kavkazcenter.com/russ/conten ... 1325.shtml</a><!-- m -->

Quote:The war confirmed once more the validity of the most important principles of conduct of morally conscious Russian citizens in relation to the present regime: do not believe, do not fear, do not beg, and do not cooperate.

This is 13th conclusion. I hope you know that this is unformal rules of life in prison. I hope he learned it from Soldginizin not from his friends . Parhaps he tried to show that Russia is like a prison or something (great patriot he is) but missed part were he is free like a bird to tell nonsense and leave whanever he wishes.

Yalta1945 Wrote:You just hope that all opposition leaves Russia. Then they will be “Russophobes” instead of being “Western-bought opposition”. Nothing new. Since 1917 you were killing millions of your compatriots. Later you called your opposition “People’s enemies”. Some of my ancestors were real Russians – not supporters of semi-fascism like you. Their fathers and grandfathers fought many battles for Russia. Stalinists wanted to send them to Siberia but they didn’t succeed because even among those supposed to conduct such actions there were people whose consciousness started awakening.
It’s becoming funny to read how you repeat your nonsense mantras despite any arguments that others publish. Your advocating for Russia never being guilty of anything looks like this:

„Tell us, Vladik, how it all happened”.
“Well, I was sitting down peacefully on my chair reading my paper when Misha suddenly got angry, he rushed towards me, but he tipped over my foot and fell right on the knife he held in his hand… And then he repeated it twenty times.“

SiD Wrote:

Yalta1945 Wrote:You just hope that all opposition leaves Russia. Then they will be “Russophobes” instead of being “Western-bought opposition”. Nothing new. Since 1917 you were killing millions of your compatriots. Later you called your opposition “People’s enemies”. Some of my ancestors were real Russians – not supporters of semi-fascism like you. Their fathers and grandfathers fought many battles for Russia. Stalinists wanted to send them to Siberia but they didn’t succeed because even among those supposed to conduct such actions there were people whose consciousness started awakening.
It’s becoming funny to read how you repeat your nonsense mantras despite any arguments that others publish. Your advocating for Russia never being guilty of anything looks like this:

„Tell us, Vladik, how it all happened”.
“Well, I was sitting down peacefully on my chair reading my paper when Misha suddenly got angry, he rushed towards me, but he tipped over my foot and fell right on the knife he held in his hand… And then he repeated it twenty times.“

And i can believe that some of your ancestors were russians (why not?) but key word WERE.

SiD Wrote:You cant see difference betwenn USSR and todays Russia. While country and whole world changed, some people are exploiting past to give some wight to thier accusations.

Yalta1945 Wrote:If you're not as stupid as a log, then your English is certainly below the level that allows you to see the meaning. "Were" meant "died"; and how do you suppose one should write in English about the past? Must I have written "My ancestors fight..." Ghosts keep fighting... Maybe It sounds good: I'll try to imagine that my ancestors are still fighting

Yalta1945 Wrote:Some people analyze - critically and openly.

SiD Wrote:You cant see difference betwenn USSR and todays Russia. While country and whole world changed, some people are exploiting past to give some wight to thier accusations.

Quote:Evil is evil, no matter how old it is. Russia inherited some evil from the past. The heritage of Bolshevism is alive. Evil of the present uses the same formula as Bolsheviks used – “the end justifies means”.
The declared ultimate end of communists was the creation of the world wide communism. Although the West referred to communism as some practice, communists in the USSR did not call their system communism – they called it socialism. Their communism was utopia. In the name of this utopia, they used the most horrible practice which they justified as necessary means for their utopian goal. Their ideology neglected the present, it rejected the past, and it was promising some paradise on the Earth in the far future.
The ideology of communism was the grand deception itself. In order to make it look more plausible, communists had always to fill in the gaps between their theory and real life by various lies. The system required a lot of lies, and it stimulated recruitment of growing number of liars into the administrative/executive ranks.
The Soviet system provided for the creation of the special ruling liars elite. They were creating partial goals as supposed necessary steps on the way to the declared ultimate end, but these partial goals were subject to the compromise between the official theory and the needs that those in power saw in reality.
By witnessing so many lies around, the liars themselves would come to realize that the declared ultimate goal had been fake/unrealistic, and their actual goals had to be different. To achieve their real goals, they used the same formula - “the end justifies means”.
The selection rules for those to be opted for promotion within the ruling liars’ network had mostly to ensure on various hierarchical levels the strict control over the behavioural adaptation of persons from the special nomenclatura lists and their compliance with multi-hypocritical system. The special patterns of corruptive behaviour and mentality were promoted by the system.
It became a commonplace in the USSR that people’s words, deeds, and thoughts were all contradicting each other. Of course, the system would have not survived so many years without any norms of ethics or morality, but these were permanently in conflict with reality. Some spheres of life might have been less regulated but people, in general, were never free from arbitrary rule. The rule of law was an alien conception; the written law, including the Soviet constitution, never was the real law.
The communist policy aimed at creating quite homogenous society but an experiment with creating the new species of homo sovieticus failed. Yet the process of sovietisation did take place and it left some remarkable consequences for the present.
In the soviet period, within the society of aborted masses of homo sovieticus there was the special breed of strong adherents of the rule that “the end justifies means”. This type of humans could be called homo putinicus. It has spread out fast in Russia in the recent years. Homo putinicus claim they are homo rutenicus. However we should see a distinction between them.
The massive internalization of the rule that “the end justify means” during the Soviet and post-Soviet period in Russia is the evil that cannot evaporate in a moment. Homo putinicus will not disappear quickly.
When I hear claims that Russia is “different” it reminds me an alcoholic who swears he is a new man. You may trust him – until his next drink. It is hard for alcoholic to change. Declaration of change is not a change yet.

Yalta1945 Wrote:Evil is evil, no matter how old it is. Russia inherited some evil from the past. The heritage of Bolshevism is alive. Evil of the present uses the same formula as Bolsheviks used – “the end justifies means”.
The declared ultimate end of communists was the creation of the world wide communism. Although the West referred to communism as some practice, communists in the USSR did not call their system communism – they called it socialism. Their communism was utopia. In the name of this utopia, they used the most horrible practice which they justified as necessary means for their utopian goal. Their ideology neglected the present, it rejected the past, and it was promising some paradise on the Earth in the far future.
The ideology of communism was the grand deception itself. In order to make it look more plausible, communists had always to fill in the gaps between their theory and real life by various lies. The system required a lot of lies, and it stimulated recruitment of growing number of liars into the administrative/executive ranks.
The Soviet system provided for the creation of the special ruling liars elite. They were creating partial goals as supposed necessary steps on the way to the declared ultimate end, but these partial goals were subject to the compromise between the official theory and the needs that those in power saw in reality.
By witnessing so many lies around, the liars themselves would come to realize that the declared ultimate goal had been fake/unrealistic, and their actual goals had to be different. To achieve their real goals, they used the same formula - “the end justifies means”.
The selection rules for those to be opted for promotion within the ruling liars’ network had mostly to ensure on various hierarchical levels the strict control over the behavioural adaptation of persons from the special nomenclatura lists and their compliance with multi-hypocritical system. The special patterns of corruptive behaviour and mentality were promoted by the system.
It became a commonplace in the USSR that people’s words, deeds, and thoughts were all contradicting each other. Of course, the system would have not survived so many years without any norms of ethics or morality, but these were permanently in conflict with reality. Some spheres of life might have been less regulated but people, in general, were never free from arbitrary rule. The rule of law was an alien conception; the written law, including the Soviet constitution, never was the real law.
The communist policy aimed at creating quite homogenous society but an experiment with creating the new species of homo sovieticus failed. Yet the process of sovietisation did take place and it left some remarkable consequences for the present.
In the soviet period, within the society of aborted masses of homo sovieticus there was the special breed of strong adherents of the rule that “the end justifies means”. This type of humans could be called homo putinicus. It has spread out fast in Russia in the recent years. Homo putinicus claim they are homo rutenicus. However we should see a distinction between them.
The massive internalization of the rule that “the end justify means” during the Soviet and post-Soviet period in Russia is the evil that cannot evaporate in a moment. Homo putinicus will not disappear quickly.
When I hear claims that Russia is “different” it reminds me an alcoholic who swears he is a new man. You may trust him – until his next drink. It is hard for alcoholic to change. Declaration of change is not a change yet.

russian999 Wrote:So, in Red Army, in soviet time, there was difficult atmosphera allways. And soldiers was able to see a real nature of baltics,russians and georgians. And russians real nature - "Ivan-fool", georgians - "cunning ass" and baltics - "traitors".

SiD Wrote:let me remind you (not first and it seems that not last time) about mythic Sadam WMD.
“the end justify means” you do not like this statment?

SiD Wrote:How than can you justify NATO attack on Serbia? I realy want to hear.

SiD Wrote:And i wonder who is inventing this homo something?

SiD Wrote:You know it is not matter of discussion about Russia being different. It is just fact. Whanever you accept it or not.

SiD Wrote:You cant see difference betwenn USSR and todays Russia. While country and whole world changed, some people are exploiting past to give some wight to thier accusations.

Yalta1945 Wrote:Yes, indeed.

Yalta1945 Wrote:The strikes were to stop Milosevic's attrocities after Russia had done nothing good about it.

Yalta1945 Wrote:The Soviets themselves invented Homo Sovieticus. As for Homo Putinicus, it has the similar sense for using it as e.g. "Putinism", "Putinization".

Yalta1945 Wrote:Is it more different or more similar?
Well, actually my previous post was just auxiliary to the view that Russia seems to be rather similar to the USSR (more similar than different).
It was also secondarily to the previous posts revealing the sheer aggressiveness of Russia to Georgia.

russian999 Wrote:I will tell you very short story about real nature of baltics,russians and georgians. You know, that in difficult situation peoples real character is showing up. So, in Red Army, in soviet time, there was difficult atmosphera allways. And soldiers was able to see a real nature of baltics,russians and georgians. And russians real nature - "Ivan-fool", georgians - "cunning ass" and baltics - "traitors". Now you can see, that all this nations are going there way. Georgians are trying to get money and attention by cheating, russians just stupidly crashed georgians and have some conseqences but baltics looking for opportunity to initiate fight beetwen Europe and Russia and just step aside,like a provocator.

Faw_Peter Wrote:Well, in as far as I heard from other people, during the USSR times, people were much happier than today in Russia, but what is really important is that everybody "were doing something", I mean everybody had a job. Moreover, the population could afford many things by the salaries they earned at those times.

Yalta1945 Wrote:

Faw_Peter Wrote:Well, in as far as I heard from other people, during the USSR times, people were much happier than today in Russia, but what is really important is that everybody "were doing something", I mean everybody had a job. Moreover, the population could afford many things by the salaries they earned at those times.

Don’t believe the new fairy-tellers
Probably, we have lived a fairly long time since the break up of the USSR if a myth of “good life” under the communists appeared. The time passes and sweeps away the lives of the elderly and their memories, too. Not all the memories because something gets documented…
The new generation cannot imagine how exotic and surreal they would have felt about some aspects of the Soviet reality if they had been able to visit it by the time machine. There could be just two types of misunderstandings about it for young people.
The first one is terror, oppression, and everything that applies to the aspects of coercive, rigid and suspicious political system established by the Communists in the USSR. Some periods used to be harder, some were softer. If you’re quite young, then you may find things in the history of the USSR that would seem to you terribly shocking. The everyday life in the USSR used to expose all kinds of elemental shortages unimaginable in any European country, although the privileged existed - they were well-supplied. In case you’ve heard of that time from other socialist countries, you should know that the USSR was different even from them. Reading Vaclav Havel is not enough to understand the USSR.
The second misunderstanding rises when young people have first learnt about the darkest side of the Communist regime. Then they may ask “how did you manage survive in this Gulag?” Then they must learn that Gulag was a part of the Soviet system but the everyday life for majority of the people was not as hard as in Gulag. Some differences were also on the regional level and among different nationalities. I noticed quite a number of the new documental books written to explain many other aspects of life during the Soviet time. If you cannot come to us and simply ask people of their lives in the USSR, than it would be useful to read these books. The only problem might be… different language and context.
Just two more things to warn. First, be careful with those who traveled abroad, especially “capitalist” countries, from the USSR because ordinary people could not do it. Check their bio. It was also very unusual to have frequent contacts with foreigners. Such contacts were subject to the control and surveillance under the state security. Second… just once more: do not let yourself be at once taken in by those fairy tales . It was a brilliant remark when the M. Thatcher called the Soviet empire “Upper Volta with rockets”. This meant that political, social and economical development in the USSR was quite poor but the country was highly militarized.
A joke from those times: “A worker steals details from his factory because he wants to assemble from them something useful for his family: washing machine, fridge or vacuum cleaner. But every time he gets only the Kalashnikov automate. “

Quote:And what about aggressivness to georgia? You should read thier posts and you will find same. there was war you know so i find nothing surprising in it.

Quote:SiD, I’m fed up with reading imperialistic or nationalistic views…