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What is the origin of Albanian people - sasha - 04-08-2008
I am curious is there some definitive answer for this question?
I am looking for all different thesis about this topic. could somebody help me?
Please ignore provocations of member Illyricum Sacre because he probably recieve a salary for spreding lies and fabricate untruths and insults at this forum.
Re: What is the origin of Albanian people - fim - 04-08-2008
I don't think so!
The Ilyrym sacre is teling you true story that most of the world have knowledge about it,
about the facts in the balkans and about albanians on thier ovn land,
but the truth hurts to you sasha, and you have start to shut your self in your buts! :? :evil:
God work Ilirum Sacre! 8-)
Re: What is the origin of Albanian people - sasha - 04-08-2008
What story fim?
I wouldn't start this theme if it hurts me. I just want to have normal conversation without insults or predjudice.
Re: What is the origin of Albanian people - Illyricum Sacre - 04-08-2008
sasha Wrote:I am curious is there some definitive answer for this question?
I am looking for all different thesis about this topic. could somebody help me?
Please ignore provocations of member Illyricum Sacre because he probably recieve a salary for spreding lies and fabricate untruths and insults at this forum.
hehehehe, you are so pathetic. Lol, it is really funny to see your ignorant behaviour. hahahha, I am not employed by TANJUG so i dont lie, I am not a member of Serbian Academi of Arts and Science so i dont fabricate lies (Kosova the craddle of Serbia, hahahah, amongst others), and untruths, well I am not a member of a Serbian Christian Orthodox church to bless childrapers and childkillers as your church does and then telling to people they are heroes, lol, fucking cowards
who are albanians, albanians are those who were in Balkan before the time started and will be there even after time ends.
Pellasgian by roots, Illyrian by heart, Albanian by blood. Remeber that o you carpathean immigrant, o you coward barbarian, you belonger of a nation who hails their criminals as heroes, you belong to a nation who praises rapists, you belong to a nation who sings songs to childrapers and children killers.
Pellasgian by roots, Illyrian by heart, Albanian by blood.
Re: What is the origin of Albanian people - Illyricum Sacre - 04-09-2008
sasha Wrote:I am curious is there some definitive answer for this question?
I am looking for all different thesis about this topic. could somebody help me?
Please ignore provocations of member Illyricum Sacre because he probably recieve a salary for spreding lies and fabricate untruths and insults at this forum.
Stipcevic, Bopp, Mayer, Jokl, Sufflay, Jacques, Cimochowski, Cabej, Hamp, Petersen, Battaglia etc etc aren't historians/linguists/anthropologists who just "briefly" delt with our history like you are. These guys are proffessionals in all definitions of this word, and they've dedicated their lives to Albanology and have all confirmed our autochtony in the Balkans by closely studying all fields of science. The majority of scholars & historians support our autochtony and Illyrian ancestry.Even Pittard, one of the best archeologists of all times, has agreed on that.
Re: What is the origin of Albanian people - ser_toma - 05-13-2008
Nation known to Serbs as Arbanas, and to other nations as Albanians, and as thay call them selves Schquiptarians, have their in Kavkaz. In ancient time, there were known one country on Kavkaz by the name Albania. Foreigners called it by that name, but not and its own residents, just like today Albanians don’t call their country Albania, but Schqiptaria. Albania on Kavkaz was on the east slope of this mountain, between Caspian Sea and the top of the mountain. On its south side, Albania begin from Apsheron peninsula, on which is contemporary Azerbaijan town Baku. On north there were lands of Alans, northwest were Iberi, and on southwest was Armenians. South part of ancient Albania today belong to the Azerbaijan, and north part to the Russia. There was town named Albana on the Shore of the Caspian Sea, between contemporary towns Divichia and Derbenta. Ancient Albania was named by the hinterland of that town.
The only thing on which ancient Albania was known are big and dangerous dogs, so called Kavkaz shepherds. There is story about Alexander the Great in the time when he was on conquest in Asia, that is telling abaout some Albanian ruler who gifted to Alexander one great dog. Albania was very craggy and poor country, and like that, it has no attraction for the concquers(invaders).
In the 8th century, Arabs overrun the lands around the Caspian Sea and beyond Kavaz. Yonder native population was converted into Islam, and headed as standby squads in fights against Christians. On Mediterranean Sea was common fights between Arabs as representative of Islam and Byzantium as representative of Christianity . Arabs conquered most of the Sicily and some part of the South Italy. In order to strengthen Islamic population in those lands, they were brought Albanian from Kavkaz. Arabian conquest of the Sicily lasted many years, from 827. until 878. Sicily was divided on two parts, Islamic and Christian part. Christians was was repressed in northeastern part of the island. Byzantiums has managed to prevail from Arabs one part of the island, and they found there Islamic Albanians. In most of the cases they managed to covert them in to Christianity.
Byzantium 1042. attacked Serbia, and sent two of their armies trough Epir, along the seaboard. King of Serbia, Vojislav, managed in two battles to crush both Byzantium armies. This hard defeat in war against Serbia provoked riots in Constantinopole. Byzantium military commander on Sicily, Georgios Maniakes, decide to mutiny in order to take over power in Constantinopole. He embarked his army and with them one part of Albanians in order to use them as standby squads. Those Albanians brought their wife’s and children. With this mottle army, he unshiped in Drach, on marhc 1043. Because Serbia was in that time in war against Byzantium, he counted on some of their sympathy. Maniakes brought with himself only a small part of Albanians. Most of them stayed in Sicily and South Italy. All of them that stayed there were Converted in to Christianity, and they were Italianized, so only that is remaind is memory. This memory on their Albanian origin is more preserved at those people that moved from Italy to America, than at those who stayed in Italy.
After unshipping in Drach, Maniakes with his army set in motion toward Constantinopole. Byzantium army, that stayed loyal to the Emperor, intercepted the Maniakes at Dorian lake, and there was huge battle in whom Maniakes died. After Maniakes death, a rest of his army surrendered. Byzantiums accepted the surrendered soldiers, but not and foregners, Albanians. Albanians could not go back, or to go anywhere, they was shipwreckers in the foreign country. They craved Serbs to allow them to setlle in ome mountains where they could live of cattle breeding (they was the cattle breeders). Serbs let them to stay on Mountainous parts around Raban, that is northeast from Elbasan in bottom of mounatain Jablanica. That was wild and desolate part of the land. Albanians breed the cattle and for tham, and for the Serbs, and that was their occupation in whole middle age. Serbs call them by the name of the Raban, Arbanas. The rest of the world call them Albanians, because two reasons. Because they knowed their origin from Kavkaz Albania, and because they in first time come in contact in region at Beligrad below Tamor. Latins called Beligrad with name Alba, which is its translation from Serbian to Latin language . Turks called them by the name Arnauts, that means “ those that have not returned”. They realy did not returned, they stayed in Serbia. Albanians did not used names for them self from foringers, they called them self Schquiptarians. On their language Schquip=rock ore Hills (envoirnament around Raban). So the word Schquiptarian mean highlander. The Austrian-Hungarian writers at the end of the 19th and start of 20th century, with purpose gived to tham the wrong interpretation as “ the land of the eagles” not “the land of the highlanders”. That shoul give to Albanians some noble meaning of the name Schquiptarian and some noble standing of their folk name.
The main witness of bringing of the Albanians in Serbia by Georgios Maniakes is coeval of those events, Byzantium Higher State official and Historian Mihailo Ataliota. He described the events between 1034. and 1078.. In his work Albanians was mentioned from page 9, till page 20
Bye
Re: What is the origin of Albanian people - sasha - 05-13-2008
Thanks,
I've found another standing point that was posted by clearman at this topic.
Quote:The medieval origins of the Balkan conflict areas – Abstract
By ALEXANDRU MADGEARU - Senior researcher at the Institute for Political Studies of Defence and Military History, Bucharest
From the ethnical point of view, the Balkan Peninsula represents one of the most mixed regions in the world. The fragmented landscape has determined the rise of many small power centers fighting one another for the supremacy over a greater area. This feature of the Balkan history could be observed since the ancient times. The first unification of this region was possible only because it was achieved by an external power: the Romans.
The theories about the ethnical origins and about the primary homelands of the Balkan peoples were often biased by political interests and used as ideological weapons.
The Middle Ages began in the Balkans with the settlement of the Slavs in the former Roman provinces during the 7th century. A part of the autochthonous population escaped in highlands or in peripheral areas, while other people of Roman and Greek origin were assimilated by the newcomers during the 7th-9th centuries. The initial Slavic unity was split when several states appeared in the 7th-10th centuries. The different ways of conversion to Christianity had great consequences for the emergence of the Balkan Slavic peoples. Serbs, Bosnians and Croats are speaking the same language and are in fact the same people, but the opposite denominations cancelled this unity.
The Slavs dramatically changed the ethnical situation of the Balkan Peninsula. They expanded over all this area, including Macedonia and Greece, where they settled in large number in the lower regions. The ethnic mosaic from Macedonia and Kosovo resulted from the mixing of the new populations settled in low areas with the ancient populations retired in high areas. The Slavs from Greece were Hellenized after the Byzantine recovery, during the 9th century. The Slavic area became thus smaller, but further events brought new Slavic populations in Macedonia (the Serbian colonization in the 14th century). The Ottoman conquests caused an opposite movement of the Slavic population, from Macedonia and Kosovo to the north. The Turkish colonization started in 1354 added a new element in the intricate ethnic structure of several Balkan areas, especially in southern Bulgaria, Macedonia, Kosovo and Bosnia.
Besides the Greeks, the Balkan Peninsula is peopled by two other ethnical groups that are not Slavic: the Albanians and the Vlachs (or Aroumanians). The Albanians spread over large areas after the 13th century. In this way they caused new changes in the ethnic structure of Kosovo and Macedonia, especially after they entered in the service of the Ottoman Empire as new Muslims. The Albanians were already present in Kosovo before the Ottoman conquest, but their number increased very much after this event, while many Serbs drove away the region. Being scattered in many groups, the Vlachs were not able to establish their own state and in this way they became a minority in all the Balkan states.
Both Albanians and Serbs have used the theories about the Albanian ethnogenesis as weapons in the political propaganda. The location of the territory where Albanians were born is subjected to controversy. This fact enabled the use of historical arguments for or against the Albanian’s rights over the regions where they are living now. If the historians and the linguists sustain the autochthonous origin of the Albanians in Albania and maybe in Kosovo, then these conclusions are assumed by the Albanian propaganda, either or not their authors had this purpose. If the historical and linguistical data do not support an ancient presence of the Albanians in Kosovo, then these points of view are embraced by the official Serbian historiography.
Several linguists tried to assign an Illyrian origin of the Albanian language, but the phonetics and the main part of the vocabulary are of Thracian origin and by this reason are akin with the Dacian substratum of the Romanian language. The Albanian scholars sustain the Illyrian theory because it supports the autochthony of their people in the present Albania, but also in Kosovo and western Macedonia.
The Albanians were influenced by the Roman civilization, but they were not Romanized. This means that their original homeland should be located into an area where the Romanization was not achieved. The Albanian historians proposed the Mati tableland (northern Albania) and Kosovo (in order to legitimate their continuity). The archaeological evidence does not support this point of view, because it is not sure that the Komani-Krujë culture belonged to the Proto-Albanians. However, other solutions were expressed, like the descendance from the Dacian tribe of Carpi (moved in the Roman Empire in the late 3rd century) or from the Thracian tribes Dardanians and Bessi.
It seems therefore possible that the Albanians were present in the central part of the Balkan Peninsula before the Slavic invasions. However, the single certain fact is their survival in the mountains of the northern Albania, where they took refuge during the Slavic migrations. The population of Macedonia, Kosovo and from the plain areas of Albania became in majority Slavic after the 7th century. In the same regions also lived a population of Roman origin, which spoke a disappeared language. The Vlachs (Aroumanians) are attested since the 10th century in the same area. The Albanian tribes returned in the plain areas and acquired step by step a significant proportion in the population, because they benefited from various events and from the economic situation.
The disputed problem of the Albanian ethnogenesis area is used as a propagandistic weapon both by Serbs and Albanians.
The Illyrian theory was invented in the 16th century with the purpose to ascribe an autochthonous origin to the Croats and to support the fight against the Ottomans. The same theory was used in the 19th century in relation with the Russian panslavism. Because these ideas supported the brotherhood between Croats and Serbs, they were replaced with other when the dispute between the two peoples became manifest. The Croatian separatism was firstly founded on their supposed Germanic origin (in the interwar period). More importance was given to the theory of the Iranian origin, which is based on some disputable data about the 7th century Croats. It is very probable that the Croats have inherited the name of a group of warriors of Iranian origin from the Avar confederation, but this fact does not mean that the Croats are Iranians (the same is true in the case of the Bulgarians, which are Slavs, but are keeping the name of the conquering Türkic aristocracy). All these theories were built in order to disprove the obvious ethnical and linguistic identity between Croats and Serbs.
On the other hand, a recent theory tries to prove that the Serbs settled in the country before the Croats, during the 6th century. The arguments are not suitable.
The irredentist policy of the Balkan states was often founded on historical myths, but it is obvious that the medieval conquests can not justify the present territorial claims.
Kosovo- Serbian or Albanian ?
The Albanians riots of 1981 determined the Yugoslavian historians to find arguments against the Albanian claims on Kosovo. They denied the Illyrian origin of the Dardanians and also the Illyrian origin of the Albanians. The great Serbian archaeologist Milutin Garashanin, who drew up the conclusions of the session, affirmed that the Albanians have no historical rights in Kosovo. Garashanin sustained in his paper that Dardanians were Thracians, although in his previous studies he accepted the theory of the Illyrian origin of this tribe. The problem of the ethnic origin of the Albanians and of their continuity in Kosovo was discussed at the congress of the Serbian Communist Party in June 1982, when the speakers said that the theory of the Illyrian origin of the Albanian people is racist.
The Yugoslavian historians fulfilled an intensive propagandistic campaign in order to convince the Western public about their historical rights in Kosovo, before and during the Kosovo crisis. They published many books and articles and they are also using websites for spreading their ideas. The Albanians did the same. They tried to give full support to the autonomist policy in Kosovo, before and after 1990, with the aid of the dogma of the Illyrian origin of the Albanian people. They are also emphasizing the presence of the Albanians in the medieval Kosovo.
It is obvious that the Serbs are not autochthonous in Kosovo, because all the Slavs are not genuine Balkan populations. Serbia conquered Kosovo in the 13th century, when - it is true - this area became the political and spiritual centre of the state, until the end of the 14th century. This province acquired a symbolic place in the Serbian and Yugoslavian national mythology by several reasons: in Kosovo ruled the great emperor Stephen Dushan, in Kosovo were built the most important Serbian religious monuments, and finally in Kosovo took place the heroic battle against the Ottomans in 1389.
On the other hand, it is true that the Albanians reached the majority in Kosovo during the Ottoman domination because they benefited from that regime. They could be even the inheritors of the ancient population of Kosovo (Dardania). We can also remark that nobody in this quarrel speaks about the Vlach population (Aroumanians, Aromâni), although this population was recorded by the Serbian deeds, since the first years of the Serbian domination in Kosovo.
The medieval history does not allow us to decide who has now more rights in Kosovo: Albanians, Serbs or maybe Vlachs ? This is the historical reality. But the reality can be manipulated according to the interests of each part involved, because each part can find useful and valid arguments for its point of view, Serbian or Albanian. By this reason we consider that the use and the abuse of the medieval history is not able to resolve the interethnic conflict of Kosovo.
But this is mainly about Kosovo in medieval, not About Albanian origin in general.
I am now hoping for condensed story about Illyrian / Epir / Greek origin of Albanians.
Re: What is the origin of Albanian people - Andrewz - 05-13-2008
Hi Sasha, here's information that will help you
Albanians are the descendants of a Paleo-Balkans people, perhaps the ancient Illyrians or Thracians/Dacians or a mixture of these, but scholarly opinion is divided on specifics. The name Albanian itself was first mentioned in the 2nd century BCE by Polybius (Arbanios, Arbanitai with their city Arbon), the 1st century CE by Pliny (Olbonensis), and the 2nd century CE by geographer and astronomer Ptolemy (Albanoi), as one of the important Illyrian tribes situated where is now Central Albania with Albanopolis as their main city. The ethnonym applied to the people now known as Albanians is first attested from the 11th century (e.g. Anna Komnene, Alexiad 4.8.4), although such a nominal connection does not prove an actual link to Illyrians. The first reference to a lingua albanesca dates to the later 13th century.
Due to the high rate of migration of various ethnic groups throughout the Balkans in the last two decades, exact figures are difficult to obtain. A tenuous breakdown of Albanians by location is as follows:
Europe
Approximately 7 million Albanians are to be found within the Balkan peninsula with only about half this number residing in Albania and the other divided between Serbia, Kosovo, Montenegro, the Republic of Macedonia, Greece and to a much smaller extent Bosnia, Croatia, Slovenia and Romania.
Albanians in Greece, because of historical migration, are divided into different groupings. The first comprises the Arvanites, descendants of ethnic Albanian immigrants from the 11th to the 15th century that have been largely assimilated by the dominant Greek population and generally self-identify as Greeks. A second group comprises Albanian nationals who migrated during the 1990s, mainly as illegal immigrants. According to the 2001 census, there were 445,000 holders of Albanian citizenship in Greece.[22] The Watson Institute raised this number to 600,000 in 2004.[23]
Albani (Albanoi), tribe in ancient Illyria, from Alexander G. Findlay's Classical Atlas to Illustrate Ancient Geography, New York, 1849
Albani (Albanoi), tribe in ancient Illyria, from Alexander G. Findlay's Classical Atlas to Illustrate Ancient Geography, New York, 1849
An unknown number of Orthodox Cham Albanians reside in the Greek region of Epirus (Albanian: Çamëria). There is thought to have been a population of around 19,000 Muslim Chams before the end of World War II who left Greece for Albania in 1945. The exact reasons for their departure vary depending on source. (According to Greek sources, it was to avoid the impending military court sentences, a consequence of their collaboration with the Italian/German occupying forces. Albanian sources claim they were forcefully expelled by the EDES troops of the Greek resistance for having collaborated with the Italian/German occupying forces.)
Tosk Albanians wearing traditional costumes from southern Albania.
Tosk Albanians wearing traditional costumes from southern Albania.
Approximately 1 million are dispersed throughout the rest of Europe, most of these in the United Kingdom, Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, Italy (the majority having arrived since 1991, but also older populations of Arbëreshë), Austria and France.
Rest of the world
Americas: In the United States the number reaches 114,000 according to the latest 2000 US Census, while in Canada approximately 15,000 as of the 2001 census. Oceania: In Australia and New Zealand 12,000 in total. Africa: In Egypt there are 18,000 Albanians, mostly Tosk speakers. Many are descendants of the soldiers of Mehmet Ali. A large part of the former nobility of Egypt was Albanian in origin. A small community also resides in South Africa.
Kosovo and Republic of Macedonia
Both the Province of Kosovo and the western regions of the Republic of Macedonia have in recent years seen armed movements (Kosovo Liberation Army, UCPMB, Macedonian NLA) aiming either for independence, greater autonomy, or increased political rights. Further clashes were also reported in the Preševo Valley during the period between 2000 to 2001 (in the lead-up to the Macedonian conflict).
The fate of Kosovo remains uncertain owing to the reluctance of the Albanian majority in the province to accept the restoration of Serbian sovereignty and the reluctance of the United Nations and NATO to separate the territory from the Republic of Serbia in accordance with UN Security Council Resolution 1244 from 1999. In February 2008, the Provisional Institutions of Self-Government, an assembly under UNMIK, declared Kosovo's independence as the Republic of Kosovo (Albanian: Republika e Kosovës). Its independence is recognized by some countries and opposed by others, including the Republic of Serbia, which continues to claim sovereignty over it as the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija.
The conflict in the Republic of Macedonia seems to have calmed down. It was resolved by the Macedonian government giving the Albanian minority a greater role in the government and the right to use the Albanian language in areas where the Albanians form a majority.
It is worth mentioning here that rights to use the Albanian language in education and government were given and guaranteed by the Constitution of SFRY and were widely utilized in Serbia, Macedonia, and in Montenegro long before Dissolution of Yugoslavia. The only thing that changed in that matter is that before NATO intervention in 1999, there were information services and news ("Dnevnik") broadcaster in Albanian language on the Serbian National Radio and Television, RTS.
Development of Modern Albanian Religious Affiliation
The original culture continued until the Roman and Byzantine Empires crowned Christianity as official religion of the regime, thus suffusing Paganism. Both were later overshadowed by Islam, which kept the scepter of the major religion during the period of Ottoman Turkish rule from the 15th century until year 1912. Eastern Orthodox Christianity, Roman Catholicism and Paganism were continued practiced with less frequency.
During the 20th century the monarchy and later the totalitarian state followed a systematic secularization of the nation and the national culture. This policy was chiefly applied within the borders of the current Albanian state. It produced a secular majority in the population. All forms of Christianity, Islam and other religious practices were prohibited except for old non-institutional Pagan practices in the rural areas, which were seen as identifying with the national culture. The current Albanian state has revived some pagan festivals, such as the lunar Spring festival (Albanian: Dita e Verës) held yearly on March 14 in the city of Elbasan. It is a national holiday.
"Albanian fest" 1956, by Jean-Léon Gérôme
"Albanian fest" 1956, by Jean-Léon Gérôme
Most Albanians are Muslims[24][25] (Sunni Muslims and Bektashis). It is estimated that 70% of Albanians in the Republic of Albania are Muslim, 90% in the Province of Kosovo and 99% in the Republic of Macedonia. (CIA Factbook 2007). There are also Orthodox Christians, predominantly in Southern Albania, bordering Greece, and Roman Catholics, predominantly in Northern Albania, bordering the Republic of Montenegro. After 1992 an influx of foreign missionaries has brought more religious diversity with faiths such as Jehova Witnesses, Mormons, Hindus, Bahá'í, Scientologists, a variety of Christian denominations and others. This rich blend of religions has rarely caused religious strife. People of different religions freely intermarry. For part of its history, Albania has also had a Jewish community. Some of the members of the Jewish community were saved by a group of Albanians during the Nazi occupation. [26] Many left for Israel circa 1990-1992 during warfare with the break-up of Yugoslavia.
All over the world, an estimated 78% of Albanians are Muslims, 14% are Orthodox Christians and 8% are Roman Catholics.
The Albanians are and have been referred to by other terms as well. Some of them are:
* Arbër, Arbën, Arbëreshë; the old native term denoting ancient and medieval Albanians and sharing the same root with the latter. At the time the country was called Arbër (Gheg: Arbën) and Arbëria (Gheg: Arbënia). This term is still used for the Albanians that migrated to Italy during the Middle Ages.
* Arnauts; old term used mainly from Turks and by extension by European authors during the Ottoman Empire. A derivate of Arbër, Albanian.
* Skipetars; the historical rendering of the ethnonym Shqiptar, or Shqyptar by French, Austrian and German authors, mainly during the 18th-20th century. It is similar to Šiptari, the term used by south Slavs which the Albanians consider derogatory.
Misnaming
Because of confounding nationality with religious affiliation many authors from Byzantine times have also called and registered Albanians with the following names:
* Latins; term used during the Middle Ages from Venetian and other European authors to denote Albanians of Catholic faith mainly in the Northern regions up to the 19th century.
* Greeks; old term used generically from Byzantine times up to the 20th century by other European authors to denote Albanians of Orthodox faith in the Southern regions, as also those migrating, during the Ottoman Occupation, from Epirus and Peloponnese to Italy. Toponyms reflecting this historical misnaming began being corrected in Italy during the 1930s.
* Serbs; old term as above, used by authors to denote Albanians of Orthodox faith in the Northern regions up to the 19th century.
* Turks; old term used by ecclesiastical writings and embraced by other European authors to denote Albanians of Muslim faith, and generally all Albanian legions of the Ottoman army.Also called Turkalbanians.
* Epirotes; old term widely used during the Middle Ages by local and foreign authors.
Historical individuals
Prominent Albanians have included the defender of Albania during the mid-15th century Skenderbeg, the writer Ismail Kadare, the painter Ibrahim Kodra, the composer Simon Gjoni, the Nobel Prize winner Ferid Murad, the Olympic athlete Klodiana Shala, the Roman Catholic missionary Mother Teresa and Pope Clement XI.Other well known individuals include the prime minister of the Ottoman Empire Ferhat Pasha and Mehemet Ali the viceroy of Egypt. John Belushi and his brother Jim Belushi were of Albanian parents who emigrated to the USA after WWII. Also the American actress Eliza Dushku was born of an Albanian father and a half-Danish mother.
Re: What is the origin of Albanian people - ser_toma - 05-13-2008
sasha Wrote:I am now hoping for condensed story about Illyrian / Epir / Greek origin of Albanians.
Hehehehe, yes, me too, hehehehe
Re: What is the origin of Albanian people - ser_toma - 05-13-2008
Yes, I knew it, again some mumbo jumbo rubish. All those things that thay write here are maded by the writers and the "historians", that was born many many yeras after those events. Like you Sasha sayed in 16 cetury by the Croatians, there is some record, when it started in Albania, but I don't know, and for real, I don't care. Those words that I wroted here, are not some "Serbian version of the History", they are only the shorter version of Byzantium and later Ottoman writes. Should I say that Byzantines are the eye witnesses of those events.
Bye
Re: What is the origin of Albanian people - clearman - 05-13-2008
There are 3 questions to answer in order to establish a strong theory about a population’s origin:
1. their history;
2. their patterns of the language;
3. their genetics;
It’s no doubt that Albanians are the inheritors of Thracians. Linguistically their relatives are the Vlachs (commonly pattern for many words). The Vlach’s origin is Thracian (Dacian). The Vlachs were romanized, the Albanians were not.
Historically their presence in Balkans before the Slave migrations is almost sure. Possibly they have been refugees in high mountains, where they survived and kept their characteristics. Illyrians-? I don’t think so. In Kosovo – no one prove.
Genetics - I have no proved information. It’s very important to know if they are a European population or they are an Asian too. For exemple the Hungarians are linguistically and historically an Asian population, but in fact, genetically they are Europeans (the local population was magyarized by a warrior’s elite who rules them). Bulgars had a name of a turcik tribe, but they are in fact Slavs mixed with the local population with Thracian blood. Even the Serbs blood isn’t a pure Slav’s blood.
Pozdrav!
Re: What is the origin of Albanian people - fim - 05-13-2008
You are barking that's all! :evil:
Ewery albanian know and have in hart that, albanians are descendant of pelazgian, and then later called Ilirian and actualy now we are called Albanian!
Long live United States of Albanian. :lol: :mrgreen: :lol: :mrgreen:
Remenber, Dalmatians from Croatia are also descendant of Ilirian! :mrgreen:
Every Albanian are proud to be ilirian descendant, now Albanian! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Re: What is the origin of Albanian people - clearman - 05-14-2008
Fim, this is your nationalistic propaganda. Pelasgians or even Illyrians vanished in fog of our common history. They were conquered and assimilated by Greeks and Romans. All the present inhabitants of Balkans have their blood in veins mixed with Greek, Thracian, Roman, Goths, Slavs…and Turks blood. I agree that Albanians and Vlachs (highlanders and shepherds of Balkans) preserved their ancient blood better than others. I admit even the theory that your ancestors should be the Dardanians (The Dardani were an Thraco-Illyrian tribe). One other said they shoud be the Carpians (a Thraco-Dacian tribe) migrated north to south :roll:
You have no reasonable prove to say that you are Pelasgians or Illyrians!!!!!!!
Wake-up!
Re: What is the origin of Albanian people - fim - 05-14-2008
Clearman, you are spaming your wishes here, that's all! :evil:
Albanians have nothing to do with your kind of mix you are talking, even serbs and turks trye to mix race-vision with our albaniaan race with in decades, but it did not work actualy! :? :o
Because Serbs are descendant of earier Mongolians where they spread in Korpate-mountines later, because you where allways troublemakers, thieves, barbaric-murderes, human fleesh consumer and no other nation like you, but they run you away, far away ower Danub-laake :? :twisted: this thing stand also on your original bible, of course in history is writen to!
In turkay is about 5mio(5000.000)albanian origine people, all of them was run away from thier ancient land kosova and enlarged-serbia cities Pirot, Vranje, Preseva, Nish, ex-Raca, Medvega(leskovc), NoviPazar ectra from evil serbia in coduction with turkay to make fix of thier own race to be able to look more like europians! :? :evil:
Serbs and Turks withing history had always the same atitude about envading europe and enlarge them self teritorialy and change your race you look like, becausse you where a shamned of your self the way you are serb-mongol race...! :mrgreen: :? :evil:
Re: What is the origin of Albanian people - clearman - 05-14-2008
An other racist elucubration made by Hillbilly's Motherland! 8-)
Re: What is the origin of Albanian people - clearman - 05-14-2008
BTW, I did'n mentioned nothing about your South-Italian blood! Ciao!
Re: What is the origin of Albanian people - sasha - 05-14-2008
Please, do not quarrel. Lets see what we have here.
1. We have well written and explained theory of Asian origin with sources in Byzantinian documents. It is might be true, but it sounds so complicated that I doubt it is whole true, maybe that was the case for one group that was mixed with some shepards that was already there. On the other hand Albanians wasn't part of general history flows of the time before and there was no mentions of their nation in earlier documents it might suggest that this might be true.
2. This is story which connects Albanians with Vlachs. Vlachs at Balkan are as interresting as Albanians because they appeared between Romania, Bulgaria and Serbia and also was sheppards as Albanians which was simmilar as them but much more to the southwest. They both was peacefull and out of generral political and religious processes of the time. Maybe they are both related.
3. Illiric nation was very much exploited and there was some tries to misuse their known history for political puposes. Maybe it is partly true, but I do not now for Britains to call themselves Germans, Normans, Goths or Saxsonians. New nations emerges from old when old loose its main caracteristics, when it is mixed so much that it isn't the same nation anymore. The reason for that may be different, but in genneral it was so. Every nation at Balkan can claim that it is Illirian, Greek, Bizantinian, Latin, Turkish or Slavic, it depends what the motives are. Illyrians were melted and vapored into other nations. Everybody at the world have same roots at one point, it just depends how far we would look behind and in what direction. In the case of Albanians it is maybe different because they were isolated by high mountins and Adriatic sea. Could they be isolated for that long at that place? I think not. Adriatic sea had much traffic. It was near core of the greatest civilisations of the history of menkind. Maybe in South America, Africa or Australia, but here it was impossible.
Maybe every of these theories are right at some part, but I am not convinced by any of them. Maybe the future will shed some new light over facts, and maybe there are other theories. Please post it.
Sometimes I wander is it really so important to know your roots? We are all human afterall. But then I remember the words of a girl that told me once:"If every man was a human, than every rock would be a diamant"
Re: What is the origin of Albanian people - clearman - 05-14-2008
I don't trust Wikipedia, but let see what they said about the thracian or dacian origin of Albanians:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_Albanians">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_Albanians</a><!-- m -->
Apart from linguistic theory that Albanian is more akin to eastern Romance (ie Dacian substrate) than western Roman (with Illyrian substrate- such as Dalmatian), Georgiev also notes that marine words in Albanian are borrowed from other languages, suggesting that Albanians were not originally a coastal people (as the illyrians well were).
The absence of many Greek loan words also supports a Dacian theory- if Albanians originated in the region of Illyria there would surely be a heavy Greek influence.
The Dacian theory could also be consistent with the known patterns of barbarian incursions. Although there is no documentation of an Albanian migration (in fact there is no documentation of Albanians per se until the 10th century) the Morava valley region adjacent to Dacia was most heavily affected by migrations, thus making it plausible for its indegenous population to flee to, for example, the relative safety of mountainous northern Albania.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Romanian_words_of_possible_Dacian_origin">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ro ... ian_origin</a><!-- m -->
For example:
Romanian Albanian
Baligă Bajgё
Baltă Baltё
Barză Barthё
Balaur Bollё
Boare Böre
Brad Bradh
Bucuros Bucurosh
Bunget Bunk
Burtă Barku
Buză Buzё
Căciulă Kёsulё
Căpuşă Kёpushё
Cătun Katund
Cioară Sorrё
Cioc Çok
Copac Kopaç
Copil Kopil
Curpăn Kurpen
Droaie Droe (Droje)
Dulău Dolow
Fărâmă Thёrrime
Gard Gardh
Gata Gati
Gălbează Gёlbazё
...............................
Re: What is the origin of Albanian people - ser_toma - 05-14-2008
Sasha, there is post by TEUTA in topic "Do you favor Kosovo's independence?" on the page 33. Also, for Claerman, on the same topic, on the same page, there is second post by the TAUTA, about linguistic (non)similarity with other european languages. Actualy there is no language in the world that is similar with Albanian, only one is found in Asia, and that is Chechnyan language. They have the same root.
And also for you Cleraman
CAUCASIAN=White man=Kavkaz
CAUCASIAN ALBANIA=Kavkaz Albania=White Albania
Re: What is the origin of Albanian people - clearman - 05-15-2008
Possibly you are right. This population from Kaukaz should be a European one not Asian (Mongoloid or Chinese), so genetically it’s hard to say. Linguistically almost is possible. The words supposed to be originated from Dacian (Albanian related with Romanian?) are in fact shepherd’s word (common occupation of highlanders’ populations from Dark Age to nowadays). :?:
Re: What is the origin of Albanian people - clearman - 05-15-2008
About Kosov@ archaeological research (newspaper article)
The search for ancestors is a key task of nation-building. To root the present into the past - and the older the better - it is essential to substantiate and embellish any claim over a territory. Thus, it is not surprising that one of terrains on which the battle for the control of Kosov@ is/was fought is the ownership and meaning of the items found in the region. In the museum there are a lot of empty windows and spaces. Posters here and there call for international support to the campaigning for the return of hundreds of pieces taken/borrowed by Serbia in the immediate aftermath of the war in 1999.
It is also not surprising that in the post 1999 Kosovo; many efforts were put into excavations and archeological research (with the support of international donors, of course).
And here I come to my final point: why the international community is keen on archeology. Politics and archeology are closely related in contested territories. Let’s not forget that we are talking of a country were Islam is the main religion. While keen to affirm/confirm their geopolitical control over the Balkan against the pro-Russia Serbia (for how long?), the western powers are keen to promote and enhance a specific vision and imaginary of Kosovo as a secular country for the rest of the world but in special for Kosovo inhabitants. Investing in archeology is therefore instrumental in achieving this aim as it can date back the claim over the territory but also over its cultural roots and heritage to a pre-Islamic time.
Re: What is the origin of Albanian people - fim - 05-15-2008
Clearman, ser-toma,sasha you are stil spaming your wishes & lies here, we don't ned it! :evil:
The Albanian lenguage is nearest to LATIN(medical language) and favorite internacional words is used today even in english, that is in albanian to, so no ned for your serb-schowenist lies and misintrpretings in here, jelouses!!! :? :x
Albanians have nothing to do with your kind of mix you are talking, even serbs and turks trye to mix race-vision with our albaniaan race with in decades, but it did not work actualy! :? :o
Because Serbs are descendant of earier Mongolians where they spread in Korpate-mountines later, because you where allways troublemakers, thieves, barbaric-murderes, human fleesh consumer and no other nation like you, but they run you away, far away ower Danub-lake :? :twisted: this thing stand also on your original bible, of course in history is writen to!
In turkay is about 5mio(5000.000)albanian origine people, all of them was run away from thier ancient land kosova and enlarged-serbia cities Pirot, Vranje, Preseva, Nish, ex-Raca, Medvega(leskovc), NoviPazar ectra from evil serbia in coduction with turkay to make fix of thier own race to be able to look more like europians! :? :evil:
Serbs and Turks withing history had always the same atitude about envading europe and enlarge them self teritorialy and change your race you look like, becausse you where a shamned of your self the way you are serb-mongol race...! :mrgreen: :? :evil:
Re: What is the origin of Albanian people - sasha - 05-15-2008
I am curious fim, what happened when you woke up?
Re: What is the origin of Albanian people - ser_toma - 05-17-2008
sasha Wrote:I am curious fim, what happened when you woke up?
I know what would happend, when he wake up!!!! But because you pacific people, I don want to explain right now.
Re: What is the origin of Albanian people - fim - 05-17-2008
ser_toma Wrote:Hey dude, explande to us, we allready know a bit, but maybe you show us your clavernes! :nonnonsasha Wrote:I am curious fim, what happened when you woke up?
I know what would happend, when he wake up!!!! But because you pacific people, I don want to explain right now.