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+--- Thread: Iran - AGAIN! (/thread-2839.html)
Iran - AGAIN! - 55° N - 13° E - 09-01-2009
I was in Iran in 1979 during the Islamic revolution and there are a lot of Iranians here in Europe. I like most of them. But now I have seen too much. Really TOO MUCH. Many of you on the forum come from the old Soviet Block so maybe you don’t know how it was in the West during that time.
In the mid 1970’s there were many Iranian students in Europe who protested against the Shah of Iran and his monarchy. Those students collected money to finance a revolution. So we gave them money. They had their revolution, threw out the Shah and put the Ayatollah Komeini in power. Then the Iranians didn’t like the Islamic laws that Komeini made so the Iranians started to protest in Europe again to collect money to throw out the Ayatollah Komeini. So we gave them money again and they tried to throw out Komeini. They did not succeed but they tried. Then they went to war against Iraq and many Iranians were killed so they protested in Europe again against Iraq and asked for money to win the war against Iraq. We gave them money again.
I was in the city centre today. The Iranians are protesting against the Iran government. They want us to give them money again. Do you know why? They want to throw out the Ayatollah and bring the Shah’s son back and put a monarchy in power again. I hope that no one gives them any money this time.
Re: Iran ................................... AGAIN! - Kusnetsov - 09-02-2009
The sea talks to you with the style of the greatest poets of the world and times...
The human life (the one of the European Iranians, at least) writes itself with the style of Kurt Vonnegut's works. So it's about people to live in "a telegraphic schizophrenic manner". So it goes.
Re: Iran ................................... AGAIN! - 55° N - 13° E - 09-02-2009
Kusnetsov Wrote:The sea talks to you with the style of the greatest poets of the world and times..."So it goes". I think we have the same heart, Kusnetsov. Or perhaps they simply reside at the same address. The biggest differece between us is that I believe I´ve acquired wisdom, whereas you actually have.
The human life (the one of the European Iranians, at least) writes itself with the style of Kurt Vonnegut's works. So it's about people to live in "a telegraphic schizophrenic manner". So it goes.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before... He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
Re: Iran ................................... AGAIN! - Riser - 09-02-2009
it is called do what we want, when we want ... but anyway you must help us, because you have done previously ... No one will give money primarily because nobody has them, and secondly taking examples from the past is a pure madness ... that people do not know what they want out of life ... its like they want : all (in country) + half (from Europe) + anything (of them) = 0
Re: Iran ................................... AGAIN! - 55° N - 13° E - 09-03-2009
I agree 125% Riser.
But do we really learn? My country has a tradition of social democracy. It was normal for us to want to help the Iranians throw out the American-controlled Shah of Iran. But today (very unfortunately) my country is becoming more and more capitalistic and we will soon be sleeping in the same bed with the Americans.
nif So our younger people (of this terrible new life) will probably want to see another capitalist government in Iran too. ;(
Re: Iran ................................... AGAIN! - Kusnetsov - 09-03-2009
Quote:My country has a tradition of social democracy. It was normal for us to want to help the Iranians throw out the American-controlled Shah of Iran. But today (very unfortunately) my country is becoming more and more capitalistic and we will soon be sleeping in the same bed with the Americans. So our younger people (of this terrible new life) will probably want to see another capitalist government in Iran too.
I'm not sure Iran will be as capitalistic as U.S. or even as capitalistic as China. The American Government has been permanetly fond of this country since 1950s (or even earlier). But it has been permanently losing. As Rudyard Kipling wisely wrote "OH, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet, / Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God’s great Judgment Seat".
Re: Iran ................................... AGAIN! - 55° N - 13° E - 09-03-2009
Kusnetsov Wrote:I'm not sure Iran will be as capitalistic as U.S. or even as capitalistic as China. The American Government has been permanetly fond of this country since 1950s (or even earlier). But it has been permanently losing.No, I don't think that Iran will ever be as capitalistic as the United Snakes but unfortunately it may never again be as democratic as it was with Mossadeq either. The CIA threw Mossedeq's democratic government out of office with covert "Operation TP Ajax" and then the Americans put the Shah in power to do their dirty work. That was in approximately 1954. It wasn't until 1979 when the Iranians threw out both the Shah and the Americans and installed an Islamic government with the Ayatollah Khomeini.
I can undestand that the Iraninians want to get rid of Islamic fundamentalist government but it is sad that they want to replace it with Shah-type tyranni rather than Mossadeq-type democracy.
By the way: ”Breakfast of Champions” is my favourite.
Re: Iran ................................... AGAIN! - Kusnetsov - 09-03-2009
Quote:I can undestand that the Iraninians want to get rid of Islamic fundamentalist government but it is sad that they want to replace it with Shah-type tyranni rather than Mossadeq-type democracy.
As History has shown, the Mossadeq-type policy is non-acceptable in the world where Western (U.S. especially) policies rule. And , in my opinion, the Western-type democracy won't become acclimatized within this country. This country may be democratic but with "tyrant", meaning a strong, charismatic, powerful, wise and honest (though strange to the Western outlook) political personality, as a leader. Another word, Mossadeq-type "democracy" is the way out for Iran with its, actually, great historic culture.
P.S. And my favorite ones are "The Sirens of Titan", "Slaughterhouse-Five", "Cat's Cradle", "Mother Night", "Galápagos". I just have not read ”Breakfast of Champions”. Yet. The world is full of good books. It's impossible to read them all.
Re: Iran ................................... AGAIN! - 55° N - 13° E - 09-03-2009
Kusnetsov Wrote:The world is full of good books. It's impossible to read them all.Yes, but it´s a scandal not to have read "Breakfast of Champions"!
It´s his best work. ![[Image: kurt.jpg]](http://aura.gaia.com/photos/6/54384/icon/kurt.jpg){kind=icon}
Re: Iran ................................... AGAIN! - Kusnetsov - 09-03-2009
Quote:Yes, but it´s a scandal not to have read "Breakfast of Champions"! It´s his best work.
All his works are the best.
Re: Iran ................................... AGAIN! - 55° N - 13° E - 09-03-2009
Kusnetsov Wrote:All his works are the best.
Well ..... I didn´t like "Happy Birthday Wanda June". :nonnon
Re: Iran ................................... AGAIN! - Kusnetsov - 09-04-2009
Quote:Well ..... I didn´t like "Happy Birthday Wanda June".
I meant all his books that I read. Yes, sounds a bit egoistical. Anyway, this weakend I'll read "Breakfast of Champions".
Re: Iran ................................... AGAIN! - 55° N - 13° E - 09-04-2009
Kusnetsov Wrote:... this weakend I'll read "Breakfast of Champions".Xороший!
uper
Re: Iran ................................... AGAIN! - Kusnetsov - 09-04-2009
Quote:Xороший!
Respekterar dig.
Re: Iran ................................... AGAIN! - 55° N - 13° E - 09-04-2009
Kusnetsov Wrote:Respekterar dig.Thank you!
Re: Iran ................................... AGAIN! - Kusnetsov - 09-04-2009
Quote:Thank you!
Welcome.
Re: Iran ................................... AGAIN! - Faw_Peter - 09-04-2009
Quote:I can undestand that the Iraninians want to get rid of Islamic fundamentalist government but it is sad that they want to replace it with Shah-type tyranni rather than Mossadeq-type democracy.
Their logic is generally meaningless ... want in a way to get rid of a' bad' and to give the power to another 'bad' ...as like they have only two ends and run from one to another. the sheep remain sheep whatever of which shepherd would lead them and would exploit.
Re: Iran ................................... AGAIN! - 55° N - 13° E - 09-04-2009
Faw_Peter Wrote:... the sheep remain sheep whatever of which shepherd would lead them and would exploit.I think you are right again.
![[Image: imbum_90552_AimGuySheep.gif]](http://www.imbum.net/bumicons/imbum_90552_AimGuySheep.gif)
Re: Iran ................................... AGAIN! - Kusnetsov - 09-07-2009
To 55° N - 13° E.
I've read "Breakfast of Champions". A wise work, a usual style. It makes you think. This time - to think about racism as one of the "greatest" misconceptions of Mankind. This topic is the thin red line of the novel. But still, my favorite Vonnigut's works are those I named above. Though KilgoreTrout is my favorite character. And I adore Trout's stories. I think, you should read "The Restaurant at the End of the Universe" by Douglas Adams.
Re: Iran ................................... AGAIN! - 55° N - 13° E - 09-07-2009
Kusnetsov Wrote:... KilgoreTrout is my favorite character. And I adore Trout's stories. I think, you should read "The Restaurant at the End of the Universe" by Douglas Adams.
I´ve always admired the Jews because they are impressed more by the source rather than an interpretation. There´s enough intepretation in life without inventing more of it. I (as a born Catholic) have been limited to worshiping Jesus whereas the Jews go straight to God for their inspiration. So why dwell upon Kilgore Trout when you go to the source with Theodore Sturgeon?
Ha-ha!I´ll see what I can find on Douglas Adams. Thank you. Any chance you know of the "Flashman" series? George MacDonald Fraser. If you´d like to try him I suggest that you start with "Flashman at the Charge" where he gives his account of siege of Sebastopol.
Re: Iran ................................... AGAIN! - Kusnetsov - 09-07-2009
Quote:I´ve always admired the Jews because they are impressed more by the source rather than an interpretation. There´s enough intepretation in life without inventing more of it. I (as a born Catholic) have been limited to worshiping Jesus whereas the Jews go straight to God for their inspiration. So why dwell upon Kilgore Trout when you go to the source with Theodore Sturgeon? Ha-ha!
I´ll see what I can find on Douglas Adams. Thank you. Any chance you know of the "Flashman" series? George MacDonald Fraser. If you´d like to try him I suggest that you start with "Flashman at the Charge" where he gives his account of siege of Sebastopol.
I like your idea about Jews. Though they have Talmud. Interpretation is human. I like listening to the Classical music. But what is this music if not a constant interpretation of a certain number of masterpieces by musicians? Interpretation may be impressive.
I didn't know Kilgore Trout had a source. It's time to read Theodore Sturgeon's works. As well as George MacDonald Fraser's. Thank you.
Re: Iran ................................... AGAIN! - Benn - 09-07-2009
Quote:Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before...
The man learn hole life but still die stupid, (it is not a guess it is a fact)...
Teaching is not only to do basic operations; man has to be learned to analyze, to conclude certain things and make conclusions independently. Then we can say that man has learned.
Re: Iran ................................... AGAIN! - 55° N - 13° E - 09-08-2009
Kusnetsov Wrote:… Interpretation is human. I like listening to the Classical music. But what is this music if not a constant interpretation of a certain number of masterpieces by musicians? Interpretation may be impressive.
Yes, I must admit it – Interpretation is human and impressive. I also like classical music (amongst other styles). I go through stages of classical admiration that is alway changing, though my favourites have been the Czech composers for many, many years now. I also like the Russian composers but only a few. I find Russian ”heroic movements” stimulating but there is often too much resonance. I do not like Stravinski or similar works.
Kusnetsov Wrote:I didn't know Kilgore Trout had a source. It's time to read Theodore Sturgeon's works. As well as George MacDonald Fraser's. Thank you.I have never read anything by Theodore Sturgeon and I don´t know if his works are interesting. I mention him merely because he inspired Kurt Vonnegut´s character Kilgore Trout.
I hope you try George MacDonald Fraser. He uses historical fact but puts them into comic-fantasy context. If you do not like the first book then you don´t need to try another. But if you like him then you will want to read all of his books. My favourites are ”Flashman at the Charge” and ”Flashman´s Lady” – but I enjoy all of them. I see that "Restaurangen vid slutet av universum" ("The Restaurant at the End of the Universe") is available at the library. I will ty to check it out today.
Benn Wrote:The man learn hole life but still die stupid, (it is not a guess it is a fact)...Yes. That is the problem with humanity. We give knowledge to the next generation but they must learn it for themselves anyway. That is why we are always saying, „Never again!“ The Nazi Holocaust – the Rwanda slaughter – Serbia´s ethnic cleansing. „Never again“? Starting when?
Teaching is not only to do basic operations; man has to be learned to analyze, to conclude certain things and make conclusions independently. Then we can say that man has learned.
![[Image: crying.gif]](http://www.angels.cz/admin/data/emoticons/crying.gif)
Re: Iran ................................... AGAIN! - Kusnetsov - 09-08-2009
Quote:I go through stages of classical admiration that is alway changing, though my favourites have been the Czech composers for many, many years now. I also like the Russian composers but only a few. I find Russian ”heroic movements” stimulating but there is often too much resonance. I do not like Stravinski or similar works
I prefer German composers mostly. I think and feel, of course, their music is for mind. As I'm Russian I feel pride of Tchaikovsky, Shostakovitch and Stravinsky (tastes differ). Though, in my opinion, all the Classics belongs to everyone on Earth, whatever it's German, Czech or Russian.
Quote:Yes. That is the problem with humanity. We give knowledge to the next generation but they must learn it for themselves anyway. That is why we are always saying, „Never again!“ The Nazi Holocaust – the Rwanda slaughter – Serbia´s ethnic cleansing. „Never again“? Starting when?
Yes, it seems to be one of the fundamental problems of human beings to be solved (the other one,for instance and to me, is the eternal inability to understand one another and inability to express your own thoughts and ideas as they appear in your head in forms of images and intuitive models that is, as I think, the imperfectness of Grammar constructions of at least Indo-European languages). Thus an interesting question occurs: Is it possible to overcome such a problem or is it our nature and there you have it?
Re: Iran ................................... AGAIN! - 55° N - 13° E - 09-08-2009
Kusnetsov Wrote:I prefer German composers mostly. I think and feel, of course, their music is for mind. As I'm Russian I feel pride of Tchaikovsky, Shostakovitch and Stravinsky (tastes differ) .…..Oh, there are so many German composers that I like, and of so many different periods too. I think my favourites are from the Romantic period though I started (naturally) enjoying German barock. I have a huge collection of recorded music: not only classic but also African pop, Arab classic, jazz and so many other types of music.
It is not surprising that you like Stravinski! I think most „eastern“ Europeans like his work. Stravinski seems to express former Sovjet citizen´s anger towards Stalinism. But although I´ve travelled extensively within the Sovjet block, I´ve never actually lived there, so I´m only guessing. Anyway, my Russian collection includes Shostakovich (simfonies, but I don´t like his cello works), Glazunov, Borodin and Rimsky-Korsakov. I have some Kalinnikov but only his first 2 simfonies. I can´t deny enjoying Tchaikovsky. His viloin concertos are wonderful and I never get enoough of his „Nutcracker suite“. Who does?
Kusnetsov Wrote:Yes, it seems to be one of the fundamental problems of human beings to be solved (the other one,for instance and to me, is the eternal inability to understand one another and inability to express your own thoughts and ideas as they appear in your head in forms of images and intuitive models that is, as I think, the imperfectness of Grammar constructions of at least Indo-European languages). Thus an interesting question occurs: Is it possible to overcome such a problem or is it our nature and there you have it?I think the only sensible way to cope with this „problem“ is to learn to appreciate and enjoy it. It teaches us (or should teach us) tolerance. My wife is from Slovakia. When we met in her town – not far from the Ukraine frontier - she could only speak Slovak and she had a German vocabulary of maybe 10 words. We have been together now for 6 years and she´s living here in Sweden for the past 3 years. We now mix Slovak, English, German and Swedish in our communication. We have LOTS of misunderstandings! But it doesn´t really matter because we both love life and we have the same will to live - TOGETHER.
Life in Slovakia (Czecholsovakia) was difficult and even WORSE today now that capitalism has stripped the people of their socialist rights. Olga´s network of friends in Slovakia is impressive, probably tempered out of hardship and communist fortitude. For this reason, I believe, she doesn´t compete with me as many western women do. She sees me as an asset, as I do her. Perhaps it is this attitude that is lacking in the world.