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Do you feel "European"? - Zealous Mind - 10-03-2009
Hi,
I'm a Canadian who is curious about this whole European "experiment". I've been to Europe a number of times, but obviously I can't grasp onto how it is like to live there, and how people feel in general about it.
There's only so much you can get out of academic articles and the like, so I decided to find a place to actually ask Europeans some questions... which is why I'm here - just out of my own curiosity (and possibly to get some insight for future research possibilities in grad school).
1) Which member state are you from? Do you live there presently? If not, where is your country of residence?
2) Do you feel that a European identity is emerging/developing (such as an American one)?
3) How much power does the EU have in your opinion?
4) How much unity is there in Europe? Do you feel cohesion with other EU citizens from other states?
5) Do you think there is a possibility that the EU may become a federal state such as the United States?
I know the questions are a bit open ended; so answer them how you will. Thanks.
Re: Do you feel "European"? - Primark - 10-04-2009
Hello Zealous Mind
I'll try and address each question as best I can and remind you that I am but one voice of the 500 million people in the EU.
1) About me: I was born in Holland of Dutch and English parentage. I have homes in France, England and Switzerland and move between the three - so wherever I happen to be at any point in time is 'home' to me. Of the three countries I probably feel most at home in the UK and London where I started my career and lived there through the debauched years every single man experiences by having no responsibilities. My career eventually led me to working in France and Switzerland from the London base.
2) European identity: With regard to a European identity I think the answer is a definite 'No'. The very causes of our past conflicts (nationalism, religion, militarism, territorial dispute, etc) serve to reinforce our individual sense of 'difference' and memories of the past are etched deep into the European psyche. I will give you the link to the official EU forum and you can see for yourself the constant bickering that appears to constitute 'being a European'.
It's not all bad of course, and we are not on the verge of World War III by any means. The forum is not a true representation of EU opinion by any means, but it does serve to highlight some deep rooted issues that may never be resolved. There is probably more desire to unify for the majority of people although unify might be the wrong word for it. Perhaps a desire not to fight anymore would be a better way of putting it.
Those who suffered (and that's a relative term) in World War II or its aftermath are obviously the keenest not to repeat the experience. But there are particular 'hurts' that are still nursed by the recently acceded member states. These fall into two broad camps; those who are relieved to be from under the Russian yoke and those who feel the West sold them out in the run up to, during, and post WWII, which we did.
There are often long and heated debates between people of the various member states whose countries were reshaped by the events in WWII. Some arguments present historical cases and 'evidence' going back over 1,000 years! (Greece and Macedonia). The one thing I will say is that one learns an awful lot about European history and hitherto unknown facts about ethnicity, language, battles, conquests, victories, slaughters and massacres.
So no, I don't feel there is a particular European identity emerging and certainly in no way comparable to that of the United States of America or Canada. The identity of both these countries developed by building a nation. In Europe we are in the process of rebuilding and therefore have cause to be reminded of the reasons for doing so in the first place.
3) Power of the EU. That depends whether you are a europhile or a eurosceptic and the subject of greatest debate amongst the chattering classes. Where to start? We know we are engaged in some form of unifying process and of necessity Brussels needs power to achieve that. We are approaching the 60th anniversary of the signing of the original Coal and Steel Agreement of 1952 that laid the very foundation stone of the EU, so you could say things are moving slowly. On the other hand, if you compare that to the time other democracies took for their development, it's a relatively short time period.
So, for those who think the process is taking too long, Brussels does not have enough power. For those who think we are moving too quickly, Brussels has too much power.
I'm sure you're aware of the original concept of Jean Monnet (considered the 'founding father' of the European Union) but if you're not I'd be happy to give you further background information as the subject of another post.
Of necessity, given there was no Great Revolution, the EU has grown piecemeal from trade agreements, treaties, understandings and concordats that dealt primarily with trade. So there was no founding constitution, no executive, no judicial system or parliament. We effectively started with the 'back office' and are working our way backwards to establishing these institutions.
Powers of the EU have grown of course and it is entirely understandable that each time the EU edges forward at the supranational level, people in member states might perceive that as a threat to their national parliaments and institutions (the most fervent protests coming from the Brits of course, many of whom see this as the dismantling of their national sovereignty). The UK is probably the most eurosceptic of all and wins few friends in Europe because of that.
So, there is a distinct move by Brussels for power to move from the member states towards the EU. The Lisbon Treaty builds on the powers of the Treaty of Rome to create, for the first time a President of the European Council (effectively President of the EU), to establish the supremacy of EU Law over member state national Law, the creation of an EU Foreign Minister and most importantly of all, establishing the EU as a legal entity. Thus we will become, for the very first time, 'citizens' of the EU.
My personal view on this is that I am witnessing the slowest moving coup d'etat in history, but that's the British blood speaking. So with regard to the question of power, I suppose that depends very much where you think the 'project' is taking us, which I will address in answer to your fifth question.
4) Unity in Europe: Yes and No. We are of course united by virtue of our de facto membership of the EU. There has been more of a sense of unity in view of recent economic events, but even then, each nation has been 'looking after their own' first and Europe second. Quite predictable as national politicians still need to get elected in their respective members states. There is unity about certain issues; the environment, consumer affairs, human rights, food labelling, travel and employment rights within the EU, that sort of thing.
There is also appears to be unity about establishing the EU as a major player on the world stage. At this point my British genes take over entirely and I have to be completely frank. There is an element of resentment against almost anyone who is 'doing better' (or is more powerful) than the EU. So that would be the USA, Russia and China for starters. It's a complex subject. The Brits have that 'special relationship' with the USA that I suspect is resented by some (notably France and Germany) as the USA liberated one and defeated the other in WWII.
Of course the USA has used it's influence over the world, just as Russia and China has and does, but you would think America had either a) designs to control Europe or b) destroy the European project, for their own nefarious reasons. The recent economic disaster has simply reinforced the idea of the USA as the 'bad guy' in relation to EU development.
But I digress. The relationship between the EU and the USA is probably better left for another discussion.
5) Europe as a Federal State: That is the dream of the europhile and the eurosceptic's ultimate nightmare. I don't think it would be like the USA that's for certain. The obstacle of having 24 official languages is simply too great to overcome.
We have many similarities I suppose. We have a flag. An anthem (albeit with no words, understandable given the language problem). A greedy and corrupt political elite. Much secret government. That's not just my dyspeptic view of politicians. Because we don't have the established institutions one would usually associate with a mature democracy it's probably just far easier to 'get away' with it. I don't expect to see a Federal Europe in my lifetime.
I'm not sure how knowledgeable you are about the EU but I'll give you a brief thumbnail sketch, from my rather jaundiced point of view. The accounts of the EU have not passed audit for the past 11 years. Too much money has simply gone 'missing'. In the next month we will have an EU President but no election. He will be elected (in secret) by the European Council. They are also unelected. The European Commission, again unelected, proposes all primary legislation. The European Parliament whose representatives we do get to elect merely amend said legislation after much horse trading between the main political groups.
I don't think I was born a eurosceptic, but the evidence to date would certainly suggest I have valid reasons for being so, at this particular juncture at any rate.
I hope you find this of some use. It is obviously not definitive by any means but I have tried to stick to your questions without too much rambling.
Here's the link to the 'Debate Europe' Forum.
forums.ec.europa.eu/debateeurope/viewforum.php?f=9
A word of advice. Should you decide to register on the forum I suggest you enter your location as simply 'EU'.
'Foreigners' are sometimes not well received and you lay yourself open to dark mutterings (if not downright abuse) about being an agent of the dark forces of the USA or some such nonsense.
Make sure you read plenty of posts first to gain some idea of who you are dealing with before you have the temerity to post a comment. You will be tested and challenged and the sniffer dogs will soon be out!
It's not exactly a snake pit but there is a fair amount of bile and spleen vented there.
Some of it even mine own quite possibly...
Regards
Primark
Re: Do you feel "European"? - Big_Becka - 10-04-2009
Hi,
I'll answer from my own experience, but I'll try to reflect most of the people in my community too. The reason being that my opinions are not very typical of people in my area ;-) Hopefully this will be of most use to you!
I think this is an excellent topic for further research at grad school - please keep us posted on your progress and findings!
1) Which member state are you from? Do you live there presently? If not, where is your country of residence?
I am from, and currently live in, the UK
2) Do you feel that a European identity is emerging/developing (such as an American one)?
No! I know a handful of people who call themselves "European," but they are certainly in the minority.
Here in the UK, not many people even call themselves "British" - we usually identify ourselves as "English," "Irish," "Scottish," "Welsh," "Manx," etc. Within these groups there are also divisions: the English can often be divided into "Southerners" and "Northerners" - neither like each other too much :roll: . Northern Welsh-speaking Welsh are different to the Southern English-speaking Welsh. Highland and Lowland Scots have historically opposed each other in war along clan lines, and there are also religious and language differences. Some areas like Cornwall and Berwick upon Tweed see themselves as independent, or identify more with the Celtic nations despite being in modern-day England. And I'm sure you know about the Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland!
In the late 1990s we began a process of 'Devolution' whereby Wales and Scotland got their own assembly/parliament. They are still ultimately ruled by the British parliament in London, but have some of their own powers. For example, the education system and healthcare system are run differently.
3) How much power does the EU have in your opinion?
At the moment, not much in the UK - we are not fully part of the Schengen area (we still have border controls, plus a large expanse of sea!) and we do not use the Euro. Most European power is seen to revolve around guidelines and quotas for farmers, fishermen and the food industry. There is a huge debate around immigration: some immigrants have come to our country to take advantage of our welfare state: for example, Polish factory workers will sometimes claim child benefit for their huge Catholic family that still lives in Poland! (In my opinion, this signifies a need to rethink our welfare system - it is not constructive to scapegoat immigrants. But there is no denying that the press and far-right political parties are practically witch-hunting immigrant populations)
4) How much unity is there in Europe? Do you feel cohesion with other EU citizens from other states?
The rest of Europe is a very strange and far-away place for me! I think there is a class divide on this subject. I come from a very working-class area where going to the city 30 miles away was a big adventure! I remember thinking that foreign holidays were for "posh" people! However, most of the middle-class families I know are very comfortable with driving to France and travelling in western Europe.
There is also an age difference here. My mothers' generation are still a little uneasy with Germany: she knows that the war is over and respects Germany for industrialising, but still sees Germany as an alien place. She always worries and tells me to be careful when I go to Germany ;-) People of my age-group are fairly comfortable with western Europe, but there is still a divide between East and West Europe for us. We were brought up with the Cold war, and lots of spy films and jokes about soviet women and cabbages :-) When I was 18, it was trendy to go interrailing across Europe and stay in cities like Krakow and Prague because they were so cheap: you could stay in nice hotels that were cheaper than hostels, and buy new designer clothes every day because they were cheaper than going to a laundrette! There were still places you wouldn't visit: the Balkans were still dangerous, and I know someone who was shot at in Russia! Younger people now don't seem to see that divide so much: cities like Prague and Dubrovnik are very desirable, fashionable places to visit.
One strage product of the EU is the number of British people buying second homes in (or even moving to)sunnier countries, usually Spain. Often these homes are in British compounds, and the British are notorious for not learning other languages or socialising with the locals! You will find english-speaking schools and facilities in many cities where there is a British population.
Many companies have also relocated, or moved their manufacturing base to other, cheaper, European countries. Sometimes British workers are given the opportunity to relocate, but usually this action results in mass redundancies and increased Euro-scepticism amoung the working-classes. The EU is sometimes held partly responsible for the destruction of Britain's manufacturing base (although much of it has also moved outside the EU to India and China)
Watch any European football match and you will see what most football fans think of Germany! And watch 'Borat' or 'Bruno' for the kinds of stereotypes and attitudes some still hold about other Europeans!
5) Do you think there is a possibility that the EU may become a federal state such as the United States?
I am sure that this is the intent, but I cannot see it happening for a long time. Europe is such a melting pot of religions, languages and cultures. Only ten years ago we still had bitter wars in Ireland and Yugoslavia because one population refused to be ruled by anothers' - and separatists are still causing trouble in Spain. How can we become like the USA without a massive war?!
I would like to see increased unity: the Euro and Schengen area have made travel for business and education so much easier. I also think migration of workers will ultimately increase living standards in the poorer states while lowering costs in the richer states (benefical for everyone except London landlords!)
For migration of workers to be fair, the welfare states of each country need to be better integrated. It is very unfair that an immigrant living in the UK can claim benefits (and some people are openly taking advantage of this - we have heard of adverts in Poland encouraging people to milk our system!), yet a British person who retires to Spain after a life of hard work can lose their entitlement to healthcare :nonnon
In order for Britain to be fully integrated, British children must start speaking other languages in primary school. Our education system tends to be very insular, and we are often taught about local history and geography, sometimes in our own language (e.g. there are still Welsh and Gaelic speaking schools, and you can learn a 'British' language as your second language in many secondary schools). It would be easier if we had a nominated single language for everyone to communicate in: be it English, French, German, Latin or Espiranto!
In short, our greatest challenge will be to preserve our cultures, traditions and languages whilst enabling modern business, enlightenment and education
Re: Do you feel "European"? - Primark - 10-04-2009
@Big_Becka
That was a really interesting read, I enjoyed that.
I completely forgot Britain was like a mini EU in itself with all the different countries, regions and languages.
Apparently Cornwall wants independence from England now. Can you imagine? Canada will be asking next.
I also remember when you could depend on getting a cheap holiday in Europe. Not any more eh?
Thanks for a such an informative post.
Primark
Re: Do you feel "European"? - 55° N - 13° E - 10-05-2009
"Zealous Mind" asks:
1) Which member state are you from? SWEDEN.
Do you live there presently? YES
2) Do you feel that a European identity is emerging/developing (such as an American one)?
STRANGE QUESTION! I DO NOT SEE "AN AMERICAN ONE".
3) How much power does the EU have in your opinion?
LITTLE POWER, MUCH INFLUENCE. BUT EUROPEAN GOVERNMENT INFLUENCES EUROPEANS BECAUSE WE ARE WILLING TO LISTEN TO REASON - THIS IS WHY WE COULD NOT DISWAY THE AMERICANS FROM INVADING IRAK. THEY DO NOT LISTEN.
"POWER" IS AN AMERICAN MISCONCEPTION BASED UPON THE AMERICAN IDEOLOGY OF "FORCE, FEAR AND CENSORSHIP" RATHER THAN "DEBATE, LOGIC, AND DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES". AMERICANS REPRESENT THEIR GOVERNMENT, EUROPEAN GOVERNMENTS REPRESENT THEIR CITIZENS.
4) How much unity is there in Europe? Do you feel cohesion with other EU citizens from other states?
IN THE SIMILAR WAY IN WHICH WE UNDERSTAND THAT THE WORLD IS ONE. COOPERATING WITH OUR NEIGHBOURS IS THE SAME AS PRESERVING THE WORLD. THERE IS NO "NEW ORDER" CONFORMINITY - VARIED LAGUAGES, CULTURES, MENTALITY MAKE FOR A PROPER DEMOCRATIC BALANCE AS LONG AS WE RECOGNISE IT FOR WHAT IT IS.
5) Do you think there is a possibility that the EU may become a federal state such as the United States?
NO. LET ME REPEAT THAT ..... NO. AND WE DON´T WANT IT EITHER. IT WOULD BE COUNTER PRODUCTIVE TO THE SURVIVAL OF HUMANITY.
Re: Do you feel "European"? - Big_Becka - 10-06-2009
Nice post, 55° N - 13° E - some good points. I agree!
Thanks Primark
uper Primark Wrote:Apparently Cornwall wants independence from England now. Can you imagine? Canada will be asking next.:haha :haha :haha Yes, it's true! Cornwall has a lot of problems - fishermen have to commute to the coast because rich Londoners have bought all the fishing cottages for holiday homes :roll: And Redruth was the poorest town in Europe (presumably before Moldova entered the statistics!) They don't really want to be independent - they just want to kick out the Londoners :mrgreen:
I'm interested that you live partly in Switzerland. I perceive Switzerland to be a good example of a Union, with the different Cantons and four different languages / ethnic groups. Do you think it is feasible for the EU to follow a Swiss model rather than an American one?
Re: Do you feel "European"? - Lear - 10-07-2009
Hi everybody!
Regarding to your question about "experiment".
1) Well, I was born in Poland and here I live.
2) Do you feel that a European identity is emerging/developing (such as an American one)?
In middle and high-educated society you can feel difference. Something has changed; we are still sceptical, but in a different way. Personally, I love the idea of United Europe and I disagree with opinion that differences are stronger than connections. And for shure I am not alone. Europe is an improvisation about the same cultural roots. History is a part of it and it shouldn't be obstacle for aware people. As I said, I'm from Poland, so believe me I know something about unhappy history. The rest of population is waiting (taking care about its business) and still - probably - hesitate. We have got also some voices against EU.
3) How much power does the EU have in your opinion?
A power of reducing differences and achieving compromises. This is strong power. And I hope it is just the beginning. It is harder to find a way when everybody has got its own concept of the way and vision of the future.
4) How much unity is there in Europe? Do you feel cohesion with other EU citizens from other states?
To less. A lot of people - in my opinion - still feed their nationalisms and stereotypes. It must take time to create such a feeling of cohesion. The first step is already done - no more wars in Europe.
I hope the time of hatness is over. I don't want to hate anybody longer just becouse his grand - grandfather did this, and his father that. It's pitiful. But too many people still live in this way.
Of course another thing is understanding and acceptance of cultural differences and nonuniform economical development. This is a real challenge. But it depends on us - how we will manage this problem.
5) Do you think there is a possibility that the EU may become a federal state such as the United States?
I don't like political and social order of US. I don't feel i would like to clap and cry every time I see my president. I don't like watching films in which US pretends that they win any war, especially The Second.
But I deeply believe that one day there will be a real union. Not only economical. And what I realy want to add to this discussion is a voice for One United Europe and for cohension.
Re: Do you feel "European"? - 55° N - 13° E - 10-08-2009
Fantastic post, Lear !
Re: Do you feel "European"? - Lear - 10-08-2009
Tack så mycket, 55° N - 13° E.
Thank You.
Re: Do you feel "European"? - 55° N - 13° E - 10-09-2009
Var så god, Lear!
You are welcome!
Re: Do you feel "European"? - shane - 10-14-2009
I think you are right. I feel the same.