Georgia and South Ossetia at war

[Eka]

This article is for Independant.Unforunatly it is in Russian.
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Финляндия и Швеция в тревоге
Хельмут Штойер
Война на Кавказе беспокоит соседей России. Страны, где проживают русскоязычные меньшинства, боятся московского неоимпериализма
Причем не только прибалтийские государства, в которых в результате обострения кавказского кризиса ширятся призывы к наращиванию военной мощи. В Швеции, но, прежде всего, в Финляндии тон в отношении России отчетливо обострился. В первую очередь, в Финляндии, до сих пор нейтральной стране, у которой с большим соседом с востока есть 1200-километровая граница, требования о членстве в НАТО стали в последние дни значительно громче. Вчера консервативный министр иностранных дел Финляндии Александр Стуббе заявил, что действия России в Грузии должны "отчетливо сказаться" на финской внешней и оборонной политике, а также политике безопасности. В настоящее время, сказал он, военная угроза от России не исходит, но все же в условиях кризисных отношений с Грузией эта страна предпринял шаг, "нежелательный и неприемлемый". В том, что касается финских обстоятельств, Стуббе был еще более определенным: "Следует взвесить возможность членства в НАТО, даже если в ближайшем будущем решение принято не будет", – сказал он в Хельсинки. Глава правительства Матти Ванханен так далеко не заходит, но ведь вопрос о членстве Финляндии в НАТО долгие десятилетия оставался абсолютным табу. Однако на этой неделе в радиоинтервью Ванханен тоже говорил о "похолодании в отношениях с восточным соседом".

За последние годы Финляндия не сильно сократила военные расходы. В отличие от соседней Швеции, где буржуазная правительственная коалиция, придя три года назад к власти, начала усиленно работать красным карандашом. Это зашло столь далеко, что министр обороны в разочаровании ушел в отставку. Его преемнику Стену Толгфорсу также придется учесть, что в новом бюджете на оборону будет выделено на 320-420 млн евро меньше, чем было первоначально запланировано. Сейчас слово берут видные представители правительственной коалиции и требуют скорейшего увеличения бюджета, который теперь составляет примерно 39 млрд крон (около 4,1 млрд евро). Председатель либералов, министр просвещения Ян Бьёрклунд, уже открыто выступает за новую дефиницию директив в области политики безопасности нейтральной страны. Авторитетный шведский военный эксперт Йохан Тунбергер уже подсчитал, что шведская армия ежегодно нуждается в дополнительных 100-200 млн евро, чтобы иметь возможность поддерживать обороноспособность страны хотя бы на минимальном уровне. Ведь в настоящее время по распоряжению главнокомандующего вооруженных сил большая часть боевых самолетов и танков даже не участвует в учениях – нет денег на горючее.

They ar coming!

[lashachochua]

btw. Your data in current prices is even more catastrophic for You - What are You doing there ?
Working ? :haha :haha :haha
Georgia 2007: 2,355.17$ against Russia 2007: 9,075.05$ ( almost 4 times as much as Yours)

[/quote]

This comment shows how you understand things....Figures in current prices does not tell much, just I wanted to provoke you and make this comment.....If your figures are in PPP, which dear friend means, purchasing power parity, than they should be more trusted because they cover such things as inflation, real purchasing power of 1 dollar in each country.......But I am not sure about your figures, can you give a link and I will see if they are in PPP...... :haha :haha :haha

[independent]

Why does that mean that it should be in PPP, if it is from CIA factbook, strange :haha ......

Because in CIA factbook GDP - per capita is given PPP

If you remember on of my comments, I said Georgia is not democratic, but Georgian people declared that they want to build democracy and we are building it, by the way georgia is one of the small number of countries, which created a kind of parlament in 1 century, if you Russia invasion in 1801, I am sure Georgia had been one of the leading democratic country in the world

You see, what You were doing 1. century is pretty much irrelevant today.
And If You remember my comment was about what did russian999 wrote...

Russia is not really e democratic country.... I have provided many arguments for that....I directed you to human rights watch web-page, very interesting program in aljazeera "The power of people"....What else you want, when are you telling about Georgian democracy you at least have to provide some arguments.....where they are?....I do not see them......

I know Russia is not democratic country yet - And I know Your country is as undemocratic as they are.
A democratic country don't use its army against own people. After that there is nothing to estimate.

I do not think that it is irrevelent. If you ever heard about natural experiments, you should know that the case of European and Russian countries is good example, to say where democracy leads and where Imperializm, autocracy leads....There is a very interesting direction in science, Institutionalizm, which studies such questions, suggest you to read some articles of Acemoglue, MIT Professor....Both Russia (Soviet Union) and Europe had mostly the same starting conditions for development, may be europe were much more destroyed after world war too....So what is the result.....Developed Europe and Underdeveloped Russia.....This is what I meant when I said to compare them..........

Why You think that we in EU can't make needed conclusions ourself ? We sure can.
And for us it is important to compare You against Russia - because for us it is the case.

[independent]

btw. Your data in current prices is even more catastrophic for You - What are You doing there ?
Working ? :haha :haha :haha
Georgia 2007: 2,355.17$ against Russia 2007: 9,075.05$ ( almost 4 times as much as Yours)

This comment shows how you understand things....Figures in current prices does not tell much, just I wanted to provoke you and make this comment.....If your figures are in PPP, which dear friend means, purchasing power parity, than they should be more trusted because they cover such things as inflation, real purchasing power of 1 dollar in each country.......But I am not sure about your figures, can you give a link and I will see if they are in PPP...... :haha :haha :haha

I already gave You the source.

And hey, GDP per capita 4700$ and in current prices 2.355$ really tels a lot about Your economy and
the development level of Your Country. Your key ratios are similar what we can expect to see in some
African poor countries.

[lashachochua]

USA GDP - per capita (PPP):
$45,800 (2007 est.)

This is what I meant, on what you have to multiply 14700 to get 45800.....This is difference between democracy and Soviet (Russian) Imperializm

You are right the figure are in PPP......

[lashachochua]

I already gave You the source.

And hey, GDP per capita 4700$ and in current prices 2.355$ really tels a lot about Your economy and
the development level of Your Country. Your key ratios are similar what we can expect to see in some
African poor countries.[/quote]

here you are very much mistaken.......

for example
Zimbabwe - GDP - per capita (PPP):
$200 (2007 est

Why you hate so much georgia???.... I really do not understand.....

[independent]

USA GDP - per capita (PPP):
$45,800 (2007 est.)

This is what I meant, on what you have to multiply 14700 to get 45800.....This is difference between democracy and Soviet (Russian) Imperializm

You are right the figure are in PPP......

$4700 (2007 est.)
This is what I meant, on what you have to multiply 4700 to get 45800.....This is difference between democracy and Your "democracy" :haha :haha

BTW - I'm taunting You because I didn't like how You answered to russian999 - he/she didn't deserve that
kind of answer...

[lashachochua]

Russia is not really e democratic country.... I have provided many arguments for that....I directed you to human rights watch web-page, very interesting program in aljazeera "The power of people"....What else you want, when are you telling about Georgian democracy you at least have to provide some arguments.....where they are?....I do not see them......

I know Russia is not democratic country yet - And I know Your country is as undemocratic as they are.
A democratic country don't use its army against own people. After that there is nothing to estimate.

Where are arguments........you are behaving like a mule, just because you said it is not democratic, is not enough........where are arguments?.......I admitt that democraccy was suppressed in the first presidancy period of Saakashvili, but Suppressed...... Georgia is very far from Russia in this issue........Only this fact is enough....after civil wars, only one journalist was killed in Georgia, how many was killed in Russia?....I told you provide arguments, you are not a wise thinker for me just to beleive your words........

[lashachochua]

$4700 (2007 est.)
This is what I meant, on what you have to multiply 4700 to get 45800.....This is difference between democracy and Your "democracy" :haha :haha

BTW - I'm taunting You because I didn't like how You answered to russian999 - he/she didn't deserve that
kind of answer...

[/quote]


Are you so simple person, you do not liked my reply and you are insulting my country, now I see whom I am talking.............

[independent]

Russia is not really e democratic country.... I have provided many arguments for that....I directed you to human rights watch web-page, very interesting program in aljazeera "The power of people"....What else you want, when are you telling about Georgian democracy you at least have to provide some arguments.....where they are?....I do not see them......

I know Russia is not democratic country yet - And I know Your country is as undemocratic as they are.
A democratic country don't use its army against own people. After that there is nothing to estimate.

Where are arguments........you are behaving like a mule, just because you said it is not democratic, is not enough........where are arguments?.......I admitt that democraccy was suppressed in the first presidancy period of Saakashvili, but Suppressed...... Georgia is very far from Russia in this issue........Only this fact is enough....after civil wars, only one journalist was killed in Georgia, how many was killed in Russia?....I told you provide arguments, you are not a wise thinker for me just to beleive your words........

The argument was included - for me it is the only fact I need to know that Your country is not democratic.
You can argue my point of view - there sure are different views. But for me it is invincible indication of undemocratic behavior.

[lashachochua]

Russia is not really e democratic country.... I have provided many arguments for that....I directed you to human rights watch web-page, very interesting program in aljazeera "The power of people"....What else you want, when are you telling about Georgian democracy you at least have to provide some arguments.....where they are?....I do not see them......

I know Russia is not democratic country yet - And I know Your country is as undemocratic as they are.
A democratic country don't use its army against own people. After that there is nothing to estimate.

Where are arguments........you are behaving like a mule, just because you said it is not democratic, is not enough........where are arguments?.......I admitt that democraccy was suppressed in the first presidancy period of Saakashvili, but Suppressed...... Georgia is very far from Russia in this issue........Only this fact is enough....after civil wars, only one journalist was killed in Georgia, how many was killed in Russia?....I told you provide arguments, you are not a wise thinker for me just to beleive your words........

The argument was included - for me it is the only fact I need to know that Your country is not democratic.
You can argue my point of view - there sure are different views. But for me it is invincible indication of undemocratic behavior.

This argument does not seem reasonable, Georgia used army against separatist gangs, mostly ossetian mitia were killed in the conflict.....If you were right with your logic about argument, with the same manner you have to hate russians for killing inocent people in Gori, Do you know that 15 people died in Poti Sea Port, while bombing, 15 workers........where is your hate about this case....But know you are as stiff as a mule, only dead people does not change minds....I think in this forum many people not only me talked about the things Russians did in Georgia...but you are Putin beloved person.....So feel free what you want....

[independent]

Are you so simple person, you do not liked my reply and you are insulting my country, now I see whom I am talking.............

You see without Your own comment - I should not have given that data. But it doesn't mean
they are not correct. I'm not insulting Your country - just giving well known data to compare.

You told us that by comparing GDP values we can decide how developed a country is.
Now it seems You don't like Your own idea anymore.

[lashachochua]

Finland was a province and then a grand duchy under Sweden from the 12th to the 19th centuries, and an autonomous grand duchy of Russia after 1809. It won its complete independence in 1917. During World War II, it was able to successfully defend its freedom and resist invasions by the Soviet Union - albeit with some loss of territory. In the subsequent half century, the Finns made a remarkable transformation from a farm/forest economy to a diversified modern industrial economy; per capita income is now among the highest in Western Europe. A member of the European Union since 1995, Finland was the only Nordic state to join the euro system at its initiation in January 1999

[independent]

This argument does not seem reasonable, Georgia used army against separatist gangs, mostly ossetian mitia were killed in the conflict.....If you were right with your logic about argument, with the same manner you have to hate russians for killing inocent people in Gori, Do you know that 15 people died in Poti Sea Port, while bombing, 15 workers........where is your hate about this case....But know you are as stiff as a mule, only dead people does not change minds....I think in this forum many people not only me talked about the things Russians did in Georgia...but you are Putin beloved person.....So feel free what you want....

Have You studied how Tshkinvali looked after Your "miscalculation" ?
If Georgia attack against armed separatists - I can close my eyes. But because You did
attack civilian targets - I found it brutal. I feel sorry for every civilian victim - but
Your government i strongly dislike. I also want that russia withdraws all its units from
Georgia. But again I wish it only because of civilians suffering of it.
Try to understand the difference.

[lashachochua]

I already gave You the source.

And hey, GDP per capita 4700$ and in current prices 2.355$ really tels a lot about Your economy and
the development level of Your Country. Your key ratios are similar what we can expect to see in some
African poor countries.

[/quote]


This is what you said.....I think it is an insult, 4700 is about more than 23 times more than 200$ that of f.x. Zimbabve, now multiply 4700 by 23....and you stiff brain will make conclusion.....

I am living here with no one, feel free to talk as much as possible........The rhitorics which is not based on truth can not hurt the world, esp. thanks god you are not public figure.....

[independent]

Finland was a province and then a grand duchy under Sweden from the 12th to the 19th centuries, and an autonomous grand duchy of Russia after 1809. It won its complete independence in 1917. During World War II, it was able to successfully defend its freedom and resist invasions by the Soviet Union - albeit with some loss of territory. In the subsequent half century, the Finns made a remarkable transformation from a farm/forest economy to a diversified modern industrial economy; per capita income is now among the highest in Western Europe. A member of the European Union since 1995, Finland was the only Nordic state to join the euro system at its initiation in January 1999

And we also can maintain good relations against Russia. It is one of those factors that made our
progress possible.

[independent]

I already gave You the source.

And hey, GDP per capita 4700$ and in current prices 2.355$ really tels a lot about Your economy and
the development level of Your Country. Your key ratios are similar what we can expect to see in some
African poor countries.

This is what you said.....I think it is an insult, 4700 is about more than 23 times more than 200$ that of f.x. Zimbabve, now multiply 4700 by 23....and you stiff brain will make conclusion.....

I am living here with no one, feel free to talk as much as possible........The rhitorics which is not based on truth can not hurt the world, esp. thanks god you are not public figure.....

I agree - it was not a nice comment. So I apologize. But I didn't indeed mean it as comparing Georgia
against Zimbabve (their situation is simply so terrific)

[lashachochua]

This argument does not seem reasonable, Georgia used army against separatist gangs, mostly ossetian mitia were killed in the conflict.....If you were right with your logic about argument, with the same manner you have to hate russians for killing inocent people in Gori, Do you know that 15 people died in Poti Sea Port, while bombing, 15 workers........where is your hate about this case....But know you are as stiff as a mule, only dead people does not change minds....I think in this forum many people not only me talked about the things Russians did in Georgia...but you are Putin beloved person.....So feel free what you want....

Have You studied how Tshkinvali looked after Your "miscalculation" ?
If Georgia attack against armed separatists - I can close my eyes. But because You did
attack civilian targets - I found it brutal. I feel sorry for every civilian victim - but
Your government i strongly dislike. I also want that russia withdraws all its units from
Georgia. But again I wish it only because of civilians suffering of it.
Try to understand the difference.

Which pictures you have seen of tskhinvali, that one after one-night bomberding from georgians, or that after two days bomberding of russian planes...Yalta here provided case, when ossetian woman was talking about plane bomberding Ossetia....Georgia has not used planes for this militery operation....Now make conclusion....I have seeen a lot of pictures of Ossetia, after georgian bomberding and after russian bomberding........So try to find difference.........

[lashachochua]

I already gave You the source.

And hey, GDP per capita 4700$ and in current prices 2.355$ really tels a lot about Your economy and
the development level of Your Country. Your key ratios are similar what we can expect to see in some
African poor countries.

This is what you said.....I think it is an insult, 4700 is about more than 23 times more than 200$ that of f.x. Zimbabve, now multiply 4700 by 23....and you stiff brain will make conclusion.....

I am living here with no one, feel free to talk as much as possible........The rhitorics which is not based on truth can not hurt the world, esp. thanks god you are not public figure.....

I agree - it was not a nice comment. So I apologize.[/quote]


Now it is more easy for us to communicate....Thanks for such behaviour....It is pleasant....Your edition is not correct, when one speaks about Africa, come on, they do not think about South Africa, agree....They mean less developed countries like Zimbabwe, Many african countries are on this level and it is the huge problem of the world

[lashachochua]

I already gave You the source.

And hey, GDP per capita 4700$ and in current prices 2.355$ really tels a lot about Your economy and
the development level of Your Country. Your key ratios are similar what we can expect to see in some
African poor countries.

This is what you said.....I think it is an insult, 4700 is about more than 23 times more than 200$ that of f.x. Zimbabve, now multiply 4700 by 23....and you stiff brain will make conclusion.....

I am living here with no one, feel free to talk as much as possible........The rhitorics which is not based on truth can not hurt the world, esp. thanks god you are not public figure.....

I agree - it was not a nice comment. So I apologize. But I didn't indeed mean it as comparing Georgia
against Zimbabve (their situation is simply so terrific)[/quote]

Sorry i am not insisting on something, but they are your words....... :fi

[independent]

Which pictures you have seen of tskhinvali, that one after one-night bomberding from georgians, or that after two days bomberding of russian planes...Yalta here provided case, when ossetian woman was talking about plane bomberding Ossetia....Georgia has not used planes for this militery operation....Now make conclusion....I have seeen a lot of pictures of Ossetia, after georgian bomberding and after russian bomberding........So try to find difference.........

Tshkinvali has been visited by many western journalists - and photographers. So there are a lot of
material. Most important for me was however one co-incidence. During Your attack there were 3
OSCE monitors staying in Tskhinvali - and one of them was finnish. He told his opinion of what and
how all happened - and it was published in biggest news paper in Finland (Helsingin Sanomat) - but
only in printed paper (not online).

[independent]

Sorry i am not insisting on something, but they are your words....... :fi

poor != poorest

e.g. Namibia: GDP - per capita is 5200$, and for me it still is an poor African country

This doesn't mean to be any justification for my comment - as I already
told it was not a nice one. Rather I try to tell that my intention was not all that bad
than it comes out.

[lashachochua]

One Russian family was robbed by russian and ossetian soldiers...The woman came to the embassy of Russia in Georgia, No help...Now she, whith her three daughters, are going to appeal to international court for moral and material demage. This is how Russian government is securing her citizens overseas

[Benn]

How can the embassy help this woman? It can not compensate the things that got damaged or stolen during the war. I neither think that woman will succeed by appealing the international court.

[lashachochua]

How can the embassy help this woman? It can not compensate the things that got damaged or stolen during the war. I neither think that woman will succeed by appealing the international court.

They asked the emabassy to help in getting back to russia, as all their money was robbed... we will see what international court will do. Russian woman against Russia....Sorry I do not rememeber the name of a woman