Georgia and South Ossetia at war

[Yalta1945]

It will be soon 3 months since the last escalation of the war. Just in a few days since the start there were already very useful comments and information which I encounter now. Something wrong must be with the reporting itself, if I learn it all not from the TV channels and internet portals I presumed to be basic and sufficient; and I learn it so late. Now it seems that preparation for the war against Georgia had been at full speed ever since Europe refused to offer an action plan for Georgia to be admitted to NATO. It provoked Russia. Or, it was a signal to Russia. It looks like a conspiracy now. Georgian president was right when he described “the more there will be war, the less NATO”. It should be also true the other way: The less NATO, the more war. Who can prove that Georgia means anything to Europe? Where was the news about the events in South Ossetia before the August escalation? Nobody cared. It’s just like inventing “the end of history” (Fukuyama) when the genocide takes place in Ruanda. Ruanda must have been somewhere beyond our Solar system if we could think this way. It’s like neglecting social issues and deprived persons in our societies until it becomes a criminal problem… When the Stalinist USSR made its ultimatum to Lithuania demanding that the Soviet army were let in, Molotov said to Lithuanian minister Urbšys: accept it or not, we are going to enter Lithuania in any case. I believe it was similar to Georgia. Some Russian comment:

в Цхинвали тем временем происходило следующее: в пятницу российские военные отрапортовали, что мы освободили Цхинвали, а в воскресенье вечером командующий Смешанными силами по поддержанию мира в зоне грузино-осетинского конфликта генерал-майор Марат Кулахметов снова отрапортовал, что освободил Цхинвали. Это означает, что грузинские войска в течение двух с половиной дней удерживали Цхинвали, в то время как по ним шел шквальный огонь даже не из российских танков, которые застряли в Джаве, а с воздуха. В землю вколачивались грузинские войска вместе с мирными гражданами, которые уцелели после грузинского обстрела "Градом".

Теперь действительно можно сказать, что российская армия непобедима, что путинская модель войны с точки зрения поставленных целей абсолютно гениальна. Впервые эта модель была отработана в Беслане, когда террористы захватили заложников, заложников взорвали вместе с террористами, а потом прокуратура стала проводить расследование против террористов. Здесь мы видим похожую модель: сначала грузины обстреливают Цхинвали "Градом" и захватывают его, потом в ответ наша армия начинает освобождать Цхинвали, но поскольку он не освобождается, грузин вместе с мирным населением сносят авиацией, после чего начинают расследовать военные преступления. Абсолютно непобедимая модель, против таких методов войны действительно устоять невозможно.

[SiD]

It will be soon 3 months since the last escalation of the war. Just in a few days since the start there were already very useful comments and information which I encounter now. Something wrong must be with the reporting itself, if I learn it all not from the TV channels and internet portals I presumed to be basic and sufficient; and I learn it so late. Now it seems that preparation for the war against Georgia had been at full speed ever since Europe refused to offer an action plan for Georgia to be admitted to NATO. It provoked Russia. Or, it was a signal to Russia. It looks like a conspiracy now. Georgian president was right when he described “the more there will be war, the less NATO”. It should be also true the other way: The less NATO, the more war. Who can prove that Georgia means anything to Europe? Where was the news about the events in South Ossetia before the August escalation? Nobody cared. It’s just like inventing “the end of history” (Fukuyama) when the genocide takes place in Ruanda. Ruanda must have been somewhere beyond our Solar system if we could think this way. It’s like neglecting social issues and deprived persons in our societies until it becomes a criminal problem… When the Stalinist USSR made its ultimatum to Lithuania demanding that the Soviet army were let in, Molotov said to Lithuanian minister Urbšys: accept it or not, we are going to enter Lithuania in any case. I believe it was similar to Georgia. Some Russian comment:

Intersting and can you just imagine what could happen if Georgia was granted action plan? Not to mention that Georgia has territoryal problems and it alone is reason to keep NATO away from georgia. But if they were granted action plan than NATO would just abandon Georgia and that would be ten times worse than talk about russian agression into helpless little country. So you can imagine how desperatly Saakashvili wanted to "solve" problems with defacto independent territorys. War is more in his interests than in Russian.

[Steven]

Saakashvili gained many things from this war. The first and foremost is the entire world's focused attention. America will always be protecting it from now on. Russia remained in shaddow.

[independent]

I’m fed up with reading imperialistic or nationalistic views… I think I'll soon stop casting perls.

Casting perls ???? :haha :haha :haha :haha

You have pretty good knowledge of Your local history - but what You wrote hear is not exactly casting perls.
Before You can do that, You must understand the "big picture". Hating and blaming russians for
everything is not very objective or constructive.

[Benn]

What's all that stuff with casting perls? Can anybody get me through this?

[zzura]

Russian occupants have decided to construct a military base in the village Pichori, Abkhazia. They are depriving the local population of their lands and houses.
Russians required from the locals to remove the graves of their relatives from the Pichori cemetery and bury them somewhere away from the territory, otherwise they threaten to explode whole cemetery. The occupants have given deadline until 16:00 today to dip up the coffins.
So now all of you now see real face of occupants

[Elisabeth]

I hear former residents of Georgian enclaves in South Ossetia, who are permitted to return home now, are planned to take part in a certain protest march to Tskhinval, which is engineered by South Ossetian “alternative government” of D. Sanakoev. It is anticipated that this action will be arranged for the next anniversary of so-called “rose revolution” (the 23d of November!), which has resulted in Saakashvili’s coming to power. That’s his sort!
It means that Georgian dictator is not going to recover his aggressive temper at all. On the contrary, feeling a powerful support of his overseas sponsors, he has decided to continue his political and most probably even military adventures, directed to restoring Georgian territorial integrity.
Thus, it becomes absolutely clear for Europe that such active US assistance of Saakashvili’s regime in Georgia may only give a new nudge for Saakashvili’s aggressive steps against Georgian former autonomies.
One has the impression that our US allies are really interested in such irresponsible actions of their Georgian protйgй that leads to rising destabilization in the Caucasus… But in this case our European ways do not link up with Washington’s course at all!

[Steven]

So that protest will cause a "separatist territory inside another separatist territory". They should really be careful in what they are doing in order not to generate another unprecedented conflict.

[Military]

If you decide to examine the run of active combat actions of Georgian army during recent military conflict in South Ossetia, then you can see that in reality from a military point of view our soldiers and their command officers have obtain serious success in the opening stage of this military operation.
See for yourself! Our opponent – Ossetian military units – was in full readiness for war, was ease at the terrain, as well as, was perfectly equipped with all types of small arms and heavy armor. Nevertheless our military managed to take advantage of the fact that Ossetian troops had not stable interaction between each other, and as a result of it their system of defense was quickly collapsed under the fire of our heavy artillery. Strategic high points around Tskhinvali were seized by our Georgian soldiers without significant losses. In fact, these military achievements meant utter defeat for Ossetian army. But unfortunately it was only first phase of the battle.
Then our political leadership showed its great short sight and lack of reality. Successfully winning the first stage of the battle, Saakashvili began to give incompatible orders to our military, disorganizing the work of Central Command of our AF. As a result of it activities of command staffs in brigades and battalions of our army were fully blocked. And even emergency takeover by Georgian Interior Minister, V. Merabishvili, with active political support of Tbilisi’s mayor, G. Ugulava, who had to arrive to Gori in the closing stage of this operation, was unable to restore controllability and required flexibility of our troops.
Thus, Georgian soldiers have lost this war, but not because of the inadequacy for doing their military duty, as mass media tries to present us now. It has happened only because of untalented and irresponsible behavior of our current political leaders, who must be cast from their high posts as soon as possible!

[Steven]

I don't understand the point of your post. So you wanted to say that Georgia would have won the war if the military operations had been more carefully managed. But, how exactly do you imagine Georgia to win this war? To see destroyed Russia? You must be joking.

[gomboreli]

What MILITARY has posted indeed appears to be correct, because there is a huge difference between how the army performed on the ground and how the political leadership acted. Up to the brigade level the military, especially artillery units worked quite effectively. They quickly wiped out the militants who had been for days shelling from mortars nearby villages and took on the invading Russian armoured columns. The fierce battle took place at the blown-up Gufta bridge which the Russians were desperately trying to rebuilt. In initial two days Moscow sustained significant losses in military equipment and personnel, including its destroyed Army HQ element, the wounded Army commander Gen Khrulev and several lost combat aircraft. On 8 and 9 August the Georgians seemed to be coping with the adversary. Around 11 pm on 9 August Saakashvili convened the National security council meeting, boasted about military achievements and behaved in the most arrogant way. However, six hours later he ordered the troops to cease fire and retreat.
Mistakes and blunders made during this operation are noteworthy:
- the decision to enter Tskhivnali was foolish as this city didn't constitute any strategic importance and the control of all surrounding hills must have been enough, especially given that the local armed groups had just one way out of the city. Operations in urban terrain usually require a lot of time and human resources, result in casualties and decrease the tempo of advance which was inadmissible in this case as well. Yet, the top leadership decided to sacrifice military considerations for the sake of political symbols;
- although the heavy artillery always paves the way for an infantry attack, the use of BM-21Grad was still unjustifiable despite a high probability that the very existence of enemy's firing positions in the city was aimed at provoking the Georgian assault which would result in civilian deaths. This was what the Kremlin so badly needed for its dirty propaganda purposes;
- despite the repeated purge of commanding officers, the military apparently still lacked confidence from the government which resulted in a few 'political commissars' actively participating in MDMP and, therefore, the officers being deprived of the right to conduct operations the way they preferred.
The victory over Russia in this tiny enclave would have been possible if the Georgians had secured the Roki tunnel connecting the two countries and the only road running from there to Tshkinvali. But the Russian air superiority and the threat of all-out invasion from the Black Sea battleships and Abkhazian territory made it unrealistic. This could be a reason why Saakashvili promptly ordered the army to break off the contact which still didn't prevent a large-scale invasion from the seaside. Therefore, the war was lost due to the reckless political leaders who had neither knowledge nor ability to figure out consequences of falling into Russian trap and make reasonable decisions. Such people usually end up in jails.

[russian999]

What MILITARY has posted indeed appears to be correct, because there is a huge difference between how the army performed on the ground and how the political leadership acted. Up to the brigade level the military, especially artillery units worked quite effectively. They quickly wiped out the militants who had been for days shelling from mortars nearby villages and took on the invading Russian armoured columns. The fierce battle took place at the blown-up Gufta bridge which the Russians were desperately trying to rebuilt. In initial two days Moscow sustained significant losses in military equipment and personnel, including its destroyed Army HQ element, the wounded Army commander Gen Khrulev and several lost combat aircraft. On 8 and 9 August the Georgians seemed to be coping with the adversary. Around 11 pm on 9 August Saakashvili convened the National security council meeting, boasted about military achievements and behaved in the most arrogant way. However, six hours later he ordered the troops to cease fire and retreat.
Mistakes and blunders made during this operation are noteworthy:
- the decision to enter Tskhivnali was foolish as this city didn't constitute any strategic importance and the control of all surrounding hills must have been enough, especially given that the local armed groups had just one way out of the city. Operations in urban terrain usually require a lot of time and human resources, result in casualties and decrease the tempo of advance which was inadmissible in this case as well. Yet, the top leadership decided to sacrifice military considerations for the sake of political symbols;
- although the heavy artillery always paves the way for an infantry attack, the use of BM-21Grad was still unjustifiable despite a high probability that the very existence of enemy's firing positions in the city was aimed at provoking the Georgian assault which would result in civilian deaths. This was what the Kremlin so badly needed for its dirty propaganda purposes;
- despite the repeated purge of commanding officers, the military apparently still lacked confidence from the government which resulted in a few 'political commissars' actively participating in MDMP and, therefore, the officers being deprived of the right to conduct operations the way they preferred.
The victory over Russia in this tiny enclave would have been possible if the Georgians had secured the Roki tunnel connecting the two countries and the only road running from there to Tshkinvali. But the Russian air superiority and the threat of all-out invasion from the Black Sea battleships and Abkhazian territory made it unrealistic. This could be a reason why Saakashvili promptly ordered the army to break off the contact which still didn't prevent a large-scale invasion from the seaside. Therefore, the war was lost due to the reckless political leaders who had neither knowledge nor ability to figure out consequences of falling into Russian trap and make reasonable decisions. Such people usually end up in jails.

Eventually georgians start to understand what a real problem is. Real problem is not georgian desire to be democratic, but georgians leaders irresponsibility. You know, guys, I dont like russians too, even I am russian by my self.I dont like russians, because they dont want to make any democratic move.But, I admitt, that part of this unwillingnes to control burocrats is some responsibility for maintaining order in Russia. And I like georgians for there desire to be democratic, but I hate there irresponsibilitys.

[Benn]

Is it so Russian999? Russia doesn't want to make steps towards democracy? Maybe it's the stereotype that makes you think this way? When I was in Moscow I saw a pretty democratic city, you know, much more freedom than I expected.

[moroshan]

If you decide to examine the run of active combat actions of Georgian army during recent military conflict in South Ossetia, then you can see that in reality from a military point of view our soldiers and their command officers have obtain serious success in the opening stage of this military operation.
See for yourself! Our opponent – Ossetian military units – was in full readiness for war, was ease at the terrain, as well as, was perfectly equipped with all types of small arms and heavy armor. Nevertheless our military managed to take advantage of the fact that Ossetian troops had not stable interaction between each other, and as a result of it their system of defense was quickly collapsed under the fire of our heavy artillery. Strategic high points around Tskhinvali were seized by our Georgian soldiers without significant losses. In fact, these military achievements meant utter defeat for Ossetian army. But unfortunately it was only first phase of the battle.
Then our political leadership showed its great short sight and lack of reality. Successfully winning the first stage of the battle, Saakashvili began to give incompatible orders to our military, disorganizing the work of Central Command of our AF. As a result of it activities of command staffs in brigades and battalions of our army were fully blocked. And even emergency takeover by Georgian Interior Minister, V. Merabishvili, with active political support of Tbilisi’s mayor, G. Ugulava, who had to arrive to Gori in the closing stage of this operation, was unable to restore controllability and required flexibility of our troops.
Thus, Georgian soldiers have lost this war, but not because of the inadequacy for doing their military duty, as mass media tries to present us now. It has happened only because of untalented and irresponsible behavior of our current political leaders, who must be cast from their high posts as soon as possible!

As everyone saw on TV, there is a tunnel in the North of Georgia wherethrough the Russian army burst into Georgia and we also remember the movies where the good gusy were fighting successfully against the hordes of the bad guys in gorges, bridges, tunnels, ...whatever. Why on earth didn't Georgians take advantage of their own relief?

[russian999]

Report this postReply with quote Re: Georgia and South Ossetia at war
by Benn on Yesterday, 21:39

Is it so Russian999? Russia doesn't want to make steps towards democracy? Maybe it's the stereotype that makes you think this way? When I was in Moscow I saw a pretty democratic city, you know, much more freedom than I expected.

I am working at everyday basis with russian voters. I am going door to door with some municipal tasks and talking with people. I tell you - 99% of russian hate the idea, that people should have responsibility to interact and control government. I can call it "the silence of the lamb".

[Steven]

So Russians must be happy with what they have. Russia's government system is so complex that I believe it's very difficult to penetrate among the circles of high-officials. Maybe this is the reason Russians don't want changes?

[russian999]

So Russians must be happy with what they have. Russia's government system is so complex that I believe it's very difficult to penetrate among the circles of high-officials. Maybe this is the reason Russians don't want changes?

Russians very unhappy with what they have. But recently, with Putin, we get some sense of stability. You know, after many years of emergency cituation, when you dont know - what will be happen tomorrow, we feel some stability. Still, we dont moving forward. It is because russians dont know others way of social relation, exept forcefull communists ways. But everybody allready hate forcefull ways, but nobody knows others ways. That is why russians in state of coma regarding social reforms.

[russian999]

Somebody from georgia can comment today opposition demonstration?

[Faw_Peter]

I'm not Georgian, but simply wanted to add that by this protest Georgian people expose their position, which, as it seems, is not very happy about their government. People protesting today have said that Saakashvili acted incorrectly during the conflict with Russia. They said that their government breaks the human rights and needs to be punished.
I think no comment is required here.

[SiD]

If you decide to examine the run of active combat actions of Georgian army during recent military conflict in South Ossetia, then you can see that in reality from a military point of view our soldiers and their command officers have obtain serious success in the opening stage of this military operation.
See for yourself! Our opponent – Ossetian military units – was in full readiness for war, was ease at the terrain, as well as, was perfectly equipped with all types of small arms and heavy armor. Nevertheless our military managed to take advantage of the fact that Ossetian troops had not stable interaction between each other, and as a result of it their system of defense was quickly collapsed under the fire of our heavy artillery. Strategic high points around Tskhinvali were seized by our Georgian soldiers without significant losses. In fact, these military achievements meant utter defeat for Ossetian army. But unfortunately it was only first phase of the battle.
Then our political leadership showed its great short sight and lack of reality. Successfully winning the first stage of the battle, Saakashvili began to give incompatible orders to our military, disorganizing the work of Central Command of our AF. As a result of it activities of command staffs in brigades and battalions of our army were fully blocked. And even emergency takeover by Georgian Interior Minister, V. Merabishvili, with active political support of Tbilisi’s mayor, G. Ugulava, who had to arrive to Gori in the closing stage of this operation, was unable to restore controllability and required flexibility of our troops.
Thus, Georgian soldiers have lost this war, but not because of the inadequacy for doing their military duty, as mass media tries to present us now. It has happened only because of untalented and irresponsible behavior of our current political leaders, who must be cast from their high posts as soon as possible!

Saakashvili lost this war wen he started it. I suppose if he is foolish to do that he could spoil anything else. And Georgia has no means to win the war. It could last longer but would be lost anyway. So i understand why he ordered to retreat so quickly. I suppose it was his only smart desigion after all if war lasted longer demage to Georgia would be greater.
I agree that he must be cast from his post, but i think many Georgians see it like some kind of surrendering to Russia becouse we want him go. So he would remain untill next elections i suppose and than parhaps new more reasanable leader who realy acts in interests of georgia would be elected.

[Benn]

The recent conflicts in the village Dvan is Russia's fault, said the Georgian Parliament speaker. Russia is interested in destabilizing the situation in Georgia.

[Verb]

If you decide to examine the run of active combat actions of Georgian army during recent military conflict in South Ossetia, then you can see that in reality from a military point of view our soldiers and their command officers have obtain serious success in the opening stage of this military operation.

Yeah, come on, in this stage Georgian militery acted against bad equipped militias and used Grad missiles bombing civilian areas in Tshinvali.))) In the second stage Georgian militery had to deal with Russian army and could do nothing but cowardly escape)))

Just take a looke at BRILLIANT NAVAL OPERATION OF GEORGIAN NAVY))))
I still guess what did they want))) I read "The times" news paper those days where vounded georgian soldiers told that they had no chance at all - "the whole convoy was bombed... i awakened in the heap of corpses, hundreds of corpses were everywhere around me", one of them told.

The most funny thing is that Georgian goverment reports that they lost about 100 soldiers ONLY!!!!))

No, really, just try to calculate (bringing information from western media for example), you will logically get the much bigger number.

[SiD]

Yeah, come on, in this stage Georgian militery acted against bad equipped militias and used Grad missiles bombing civilian areas in Tshinvali.))) In the second stage Georgian militery had to deal with Russian army and could do nothing but cowardly escape)))

Just take a looke at BRILLIANT NAVAL OPERATION OF GEORGIAN NAVY))))
I still guess what did they want))) I read "The times" news paper those days where vounded georgian soldiers told that they had no chance at all - "the whole convoy was bombed... i awakened in the heap of corpses, hundreds of corpses were everywhere around me", one of them told.

The most funny thing is that Georgian goverment reports that they lost about 100 soldiers ONLY!!!!))

No, really, just try to calculate (bringing information from western media for example), you will logically get the much bigger number.

Every man has a pride and i think words like "do nothing but cowardly escape" are not apropriete. After all we should try not to offend each other but to discuss.
Besides i doubt that "some georgian soldier from The Times newspaper" can be realy viewed as unquestionable source of information. After all he could be shocked and frightened and dozen dead people could be seen like hundreds to him, and i doubt he is medick and checked every last if he is dead, vounded or uncouncious.
It is logickal that every side would want to lower its loses and claim higher loses of oponent.

[Verb]

After all he could be shocked and frightened and dozen dead people could be seen like hundreds to him

Justr try to think logically - what do you think the military convoy is? Couple of soldiers? What will be if missile hits the lorry full of soldiers? How many people in the team on the military boat? How many people in the tank crew? Now try to calculate.

You can chek "the times" archive btw. Names of witnesses are given.

[Benn]

did you hear the Medvedev recent's assertion?:
promise shattering blow to anyone threatening Russian citizens.
hock: