Georgia and South Ossetia at war

[Lor]

I condemn only Russia and US. I won't condemn little countries that are being maneuvered! They(Russia and US) think that they can play with little countries like kids with toys.I am happy the European countries in NATO opposed US.This proves to the whole world that US=NATO is a stupid stereotype. Maybe now, people will realize that NATO is more of a peacekeeper than Russia.

I think you can consult with Serbia how great peacekeeper NATO is.

OOh poor little countries, they are so little and qute . If country is little that soesnt mean it is weak or will allow enyone to use themselves in some Big Bad Countries games. When your country is small it's inevitable for it to be left alone. There will always be a superpower trying to influence it! Especially if this country plays an important strategical role. Unfortunately you don't know how it is to live in a small country. Russia has never been a victim of long occupations! You have been the ones that occupied!! In Georgia case, it didn't "allow" itself in the Big Bad Countries game. It was part of the game from USSR.

Russia responded to US intentions cant you see that? Can you please be more explicit about US intentions?

Well can i assume that people in US are brainwashed too? Or they were just desieved? Isnt it kind if brainwashing to make them believe that Sadam have WMD.
People in US are 90% or more against Bush. There are demonstrations on the streets everyday protesting against the Iraq War. People whose family or friends died in that war for no reason. Plus the economy went down since Bush spent sooo much money for the war. SO people in US are very unhappy! Thank God new elections are coming!

For your revelation: Serbia decisively wants to join NATO.

If Russia wants to respond to US why did they choose to do it through Georgia, spilling blood on external grounds?
Wouldn't it be more patriotic/beneficial to encounter them in straight conflict, reclaiming Alaska and settle the differences.

These are JUST theories, because there is not even ONE proof that US had anything to do with Georgia(Georgia did BUY legally armory from US, Ukraine and Israel,but i would do the same if i were your neighbor), but there are million proves that Russia does.(Large amount of armory SMUGGLED to Ossetia)

Also, you missed a word from my sentence. I said LONG occupation. As in Russians being suppressed, forced to speak a different language and to change their culture in one day.(except for Mongolians... but that was hundreds of years ago, if we think this way, i'll give examples in Europe from Roman Empire, which will get ridiculous! so let's concentrate on the 20th, 21st centuries).

[Lor]

Can you please be more explicit about US intentions?

You didn't ask from me, but I still give my 5 cents...

There indeed exists few US intentions in Georgia:

1) Azerbaijan oil - or more clearly the only oil pipe not crossing russian territory
2) Enlargement of NATO - New member have to use huge amount of money for
weapons, even before they are accepted ( Georgia used 15% of GDP yearly ).
And those weapons are mostly bought from US
3) Increased tension also make it possible for US to deploy Missile Shields to
former USSR countries ( Poland already accepted it ). Those shields can
however protect only US itself ( people just don't understand it ).

Shortly - US intentions: money and own security
So both Russia and US has their own hidden interest in this area

EXACTLY!!! Both, but you don't see Americans bombarding Georgia. What gives Russia the right to decide upon Georgians future? LET them choose in whose sphere of influence they want to be!! COLD FACT!!! They don't want to be under Russian control and as things are going they'll never be!!

[Lor]

Also i would like to bring to your attention this RUSSIAN TV/radio station "Echo of Moscow" located in Moscow quite popular and objective in their studies. Here is the link <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.echo.msk.ru">http://www.echo.msk.ru</a><!-- m -->


Good interviews, interesting opinions, famous Russian politics specialists, open discussions
( for non Russian speakers use google/translate on written copies of the interviews)


/

[independent]

EXACTLY!!! Both, but you don't see Americans bombarding Georgia. What gives Russia the right to decide upon Georgians future? LET them choose in whose sphere of influence they want to be!! COLD FACT!!! They don't want to be under Russian control and as things are going they'll never be!!

I really didn't mean it so. Anyone than Georgians them self have no rights there. My point was simply to
show that Georgia is now between two big countries interests. It's not right,
You see my english is not very good so I cant express myself so clearly as I like to. When I say e.g.
something I consider to be true - it doesn't mean I want it to be that way.

[SiD]

For your revelation: Serbia decisively wants to join NATO.

If Russia wants to respond to US why did they choose to do it through Georgia, spilling blood on external grounds?
Wouldn't it be more patriotic/beneficial to encounter them in straight conflict, reclaiming Alaska and settle the differences.

These are JUST theories, because there is not even ONE proof that US had anything to do with Georgia(Georgia did BUY legally armory from US, Ukraine and Israel,but i would do the same if i were your neighbor), but there are million proves that Russia does.(Large amount of armory SMUGGLED to Ossetia)

Also, you missed a word from my sentence. I said LONG occupation. As in Russians being suppressed, forced to speak a different language and to change their culture in one day.(except for Mongolians... but that was hundreds of years ago, if we think this way, i'll give examples in Europe from Roman Empire, which will get ridiculous! so let's concentrate on the 20th, 21st centuries).

Cool US has nothing to do with Georgia? And you belive that? Training of Georgian troops is nothing to you?
You disapointed me. You deliberatly want to speak nonsense? Georgian soldiers went to Iraq becouse Georgia just lowe US right? .
Actualy Russia was defeated during ww1 and almost torn appart during followed civil war. And foreign intervention took place during Civ war. By the way about change of culture. It was Soviet culture you know.
So we were shaken by totall change of our society 3 times during 20 century.

[SiD]

Also i would like to bring to your attention this RUSSIAN TV/radio station "Echo of Moscow" located in Moscow quite popular and objective in their studies. Here is the link <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.echo.msk.ru">http://www.echo.msk.ru</a><!-- m -->


Good interviews, interesting opinions, famous Russian politics specialists, open discussions
( for non Russian speakers use google/translate on written copies of the interviews)


/

See. And you told that we have no freedom in Russia.

[Lor]

For your revelation: Serbia decisively wants to join NATO.

If Russia wants to respond to US why did they choose to do it through Georgia, spilling blood on external grounds?
Wouldn't it be more patriotic/beneficial to encounter them in straight conflict, reclaiming Alaska and settle the differences.

These are JUST theories, because there is not even ONE proof that US had anything to do with Georgia(Georgia did BUY legally armory from US, Ukraine and Israel,but i would do the same if i were your neighbor), but there are million proves that Russia does.(Large amount of armory SMUGGLED to Ossetia)

Also, you missed a word from my sentence. I said LONG occupation. As in Russians being suppressed, forced to speak a different language and to change their culture in one day.(except for Mongolians... but that was hundreds of years ago, if we think this way, i'll give examples in Europe from Roman Empire, which will get ridiculous! so let's concentrate on the 20th, 21st centuries).

Cool US has nothing to do with Georgia? And you belive that? Training of Georgian troops is nothing to you?
You disapointed me. You deliberatly want to speak nonsense? Georgian soldiers went to Iraq becouse Georgia just lowe US right? .
Actualy Russia was defeated during ww1 and almost torn appart during followed civil war. And foreign intervention took place during Civ war. By the way about change of culture. It was Soviet culture you know.
So we were shaken by totall change of our society 3 times during 20 century.

Irrelevant!
Every country on this planet, during history went through social changes.Russian society changes were within your own country. This is how your culture builds up... by changing social structure. Stop whining! Every country had a Civil War!!

Back to the root of conversation-

ANY country that wants to be a part of NATO goes through trainings not only with US, but with other members of the block. For example Romania, before it got accepted in NATO went to Iraq as well and went through intensive training with different countries from NATO.

P.S. How many times have you been forced to speak another language? (Moldova, Ukraine,Latvia, Estonia, etc)


/

[independent]

Lor,

It seems that You support the idea of Georgia and Ukraine to join NATO. But if You look e.g. Baltian
countries who already have joined. there seems to be nothing good to follow. All Baltic countries are
internally unstable, economy regressed and they have ethnic problems as well.
So it seems that at least for them it was not a good choice.

[Lor]

Also i would like to bring to your attention this RUSSIAN TV/radio station "Echo of Moscow" located in Moscow quite popular and objective in their studies. Here is the link <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.echo.msk.ru">http://www.echo.msk.ru</a><!-- m -->


Good interviews, interesting opinions, famous Russian politics specialists, open discussions
( for non Russian speakers use google/translate on written copies of the interviews)


/

See. And you told that we have no freedom in Russia.

- Unfortunately it has been under Kremlin suppression since 2000
but too many bright people with liberal and freedom driven ideas on international levels participated in their interviews and avoid shutting it down.

Sadly, is only ONE media source like that.


/

[Lor]

Lor,

It seems that You support the idea of Georgia and Ukraine to join NATO. But if You look e.g. Baltian
countries who already have joined. there seems to be nothing good to follow. All Baltic countries are
internally unstable, economy regressed and they have ethnic problems as well.
So it seems that at least for them it was not a good choice.

If you are familiar with the GDP index, please check the growth rate in the above mentioned countries for the past 5 years. You will find nothing but growth I could add to these countries Poland, Hungary, Romania.

Talking about ethnic problems, you won't find them in the above mentioned countries.

Please provide me information to support your statements.

P.S. So far most of the ethnic problems occured in ex soviet republics, all involved Russian nationalists(Transnistria, Crimea, South Oseetia, Abhkazia. Chechnya)


/

[Andres]

Good article here

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/russo_georgian_war_and_balance_power">http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/russo_ge ... ance_power</a><!-- m -->

[SiD]

Lor you just do not want to hear. Anyway i am tired to try to explain to you obvius things.
First you speak that there is NO freedom in Russia just brainwashing now you found something (that agrees to your opinion) and suddenly it is only one beacon of freedom in Russia. You just can not admit that people CAN support government DEFENDING NATIONAL INTERESTS. NOT YOURS!!! RUSSIAN INTERESTS!!!
Should i drow you a picture about national interests of different countries? You can accept or you can not, you can approve or can not but Russia has national interests and WE ellect OUR government not FOR YOUR LIKING we ellect them to defend Russian interests.
If you still not get it ask independent i think he can try to explain to you.

[Lor]

SiD i am not pro-Georgian, i just understand their position.
European Union has standards for its countries and SHARES investments, wealth, cultural values.
Russia concentrates most of their wealth in Moscow.
Officially Moscow spent 5 billion dollars on luxury items, despite the rest of the country.


I got to this blog by famous Russian designer Lebedev, I appreciate his sober view of life.

Viewer discretion advise (Some graphical shit outside of Moscow).

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.tema.ru/jj/taldan.jpg">http://www.tema.ru/jj/taldan.jpg</a><!-- m --> (lavatory's)
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.tema.ru/jj/ep-s2.jpg">http://www.tema.ru/jj/ep-s2.jpg</a><!-- m --> (Outside of the restaurant)
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.tema.ru/jj/allroad.jpg">http://www.tema.ru/jj/allroad.jpg</a><!-- m --> (Federal road M-53)



Now tell me how can you motivate other countries to share the same lifestyle ???


/

[Lor]

Lor you just do not want to hear. Anyway i am tired to try to explain to you obvius things.
First you speak that there is NO freedom in Russia just brainwashing now you found something (that agrees to your opinion) and suddenly it is only one beacon of freedom in Russia. You just can not admit that people CAN support government DEFENDING NATIONAL INTERESTS. NOT YOURS!!! RUSSIAN INTERESTS!!!
Should i drow you a picture about national interests of different countries? You can accept or you can not, you can approve or can not but Russia has national interests and WE ellect OUR government not FOR YOUR LIKING we ellect them to defend Russian interests.
If you still not get it ask independent i think he can try to explain to you.

SID - PUTIN ELECTED A NEW PRESIDENT FOR YOU !

I don't want to argue at all!! I wish you Russian people the happiest life on Earth for as long as it doesn't involve somebody else's pain.
Are the imperialistic interests part of your national dream ?!


/

[independent]

If you are familiar with the GDP index, please check the growth rate in the above mentioned countries for the past 5 years. You will find nothing but growth I could add to these countries Poland, Hungary, Romania.

I my self know best the situation in Estonia - I run a small business there, so I know the situation
there pretty well. GDP Index until aprill 2007 is as You say good. But that time there break out
disagreement between estonian (ca.70%) speaking and russian (30%) speaking people. It was
culminated as demonstrations by russians (estonian citizens). There was some vandalism and
police stopped demonstrations with might be to violently. That leads to relations between Russia
and Estonia cooling down.

A significant part of estonian income was based to transit between Russia and West. Now there
is no more transit. Last Year Prices has rised ca.40% and Real Estate prices are down some
30-35%. Most companies are owned by foreigners - who one after one are closing them. Nope
there is not going well. GDP growth this year will be negative

Estonia joined NATO 2004 , get an Pro-American President October 9, 2006, and last year new
Pro-American government

The situation has also generated corresponding situations in other Baltic countries. It is silly and
it is dangerous for them self - but they don't see it.

Talking about ethnic problems, you won't find them in the above mentioned countries.

Sorry, I really can't agree.

You can find some info e.g. from European Parliaments reports

[SiD]

SID - PUTIN ELECTED A NEW PRESIDENT FOR YOU !

I don't want to argue at all!! I wish you Russian people the happiest life on Earth for as long as it doesn't involve somebody else's pain.
Are the imperialistic interests part of your national dream ?!


/

What kind of ideas are you talking about?

[Lor]

If you are familiar with the GDP index, please check the growth rate in the above mentioned countries for the past 5 years. You will find nothing but growth I could add to these countries Poland, Hungary, Romania.

I my self know best the situation in Estonia - I run a small business there, so I know the situation
there pretty well. GDP Index until aprill 2007 is as You say good. But that time there break out
disagreement between estonian (ca.70%) speaking and russian (30%) speaking people. It was
culminated as demonstrations by russians (estonian citizens). There was some vandalism and
police stopped demonstrations with might be to violently. That leads to relations between Russia
and Estonia cooling down.

A significant part of estonian income was based to transit between Russia and West. Now there

is no more transit. Last Year Prices has rised ca.40% and Real Estate prices are down some
30-35%. Most companies are owned by foreigners - who one after one are closing them. Nope
there is not going well.

Estonia joined NATO 2004 , get an Pro-American President October 9, 2006, and last year new
Pro-American government

The situation has also generated corresponding situations in other Baltic countries. It is silly and
it is dangerous for them self - but they don't see it.

Talking about ethnic problems, you won't find them in the above mentioned countries.

Sorry, I really can't agree.

You can find some info e.g. from European Parliaments reports

AGAIN How come this crisis involves Russian part of population? !!

Thank you for the details. Do you have info about the other countries?

You told me about Estonia, what about the other Baltic countries?? And Poland, Hungary, Romania?

Despite these local fluctuations in economy, life standards are better OVER ALL than in Russia.
You don't see emigrants from these countries fleeing to Russia, you can only see the opposite.


/

[Lor]

SID - PUTIN ELECTED A NEW PRESIDENT FOR YOU !

I don't want to argue at all!! I wish you Russian people the happiest life on Earth for as long as it doesn't involve somebody else's pain.
Are the imperialistic interests part of your national dream ?!


/

What kind of ideas are you talking about?

Putin wants to re-establish the Russian sphere of influence in the former Soviet Union region.

/

[SiD]

Lor if you wake up tommorow in bad mood it is becouse of bad russians :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: .

[Lor]

Lor if you wake up tommorow in bad mood it is becouse of bad russians :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: .

uper :haha +10 or as you guys say "Pyaterka"

[SiD]

SID - PUTIN ELECTED A NEW PRESIDENT FOR YOU !

I don't want to argue at all!! I wish you Russian people the happiest life on Earth for as long as it doesn't involve somebody else's pain.
Are the imperialistic interests part of your national dream ?!


/

What kind of ideas are you talking about?

Putin wants to re-establish the Russian sphere of influence in the former Soviet Union region.

/

Actualy it is natural thing. He would be incompitent if he woldnt tried.

[Lor]

Putin wants to re-establish the Russian sphere of influence in the former Soviet Union region.

/

Actualy it is natural thing. He would be incompitent if he woldnt tried.

I wouldn't call it NATURAL. I would call it BENEFICIAL for you and a DISASTER for the influenced countries


/

[independent]

AGAIN How come this crisis involves Russian part of population? !!

You see I can't think that people who has born in Estonia and have estonian citizenship
can be devided by language. They are all living there.

Those demonstrations were widely in media aprill 2007 - so You can find independent
information about it. The Issue was an old WWII statue replaced in a very stupid way
Statue is important for russian minority - and government knew very well that replacing
it will provoke demoonstrations. It was removed at night -and they didn't tell where is it
or is it demolished.
I was that time at Tallinn and I really found the way they handled it very stupid.

You told me about Estonia, what about the other Baltic countries?? And Poland, Hungary, Romania?

Before they was doing well as did Estonia but what happens in Estonia somehow inspired
also Lithuania and Latvia to behave more nationalistic - and they are provoking internal tensions
as well. So also they are encountering same kind of problems. I'm not familiar with situation in
Poland, Hungary and Romania.

Despite these local fluctuations in economy, life standards are better OVER ALL than in Russia.
You don't see emigrants from these countries fleeing to Russia, you can only see the opposite.

Indeed some russian speaking families are moving to Russia - but from Russia to Estonia none.

Life standars are not so bad in Estonia - but it depends where to compare. Still not even near
ordinary EU level.

What I'm trying to say:
It is more clever to support integration between ethnic groups - than to receive popularity from
majority - by kicking minorities. But Yes majorities often likes when they see minorities being
humiliated.

[Lor]

Sorry didn't express myself right!! Over all Russians emigrate in EU, US, Canada(All NATO members, the conversation started from NATO), maybe Estonia is not that popular. Sorry didn't have enough info about that.

You barely see Westerns emigrating to Russia, that was my point. The flow of people is from East to West, not the other way around.

I agree that the removal of that statue wasn't an adequate move, but kind of understand where the removal came from. Russians were aggressive during their occupation. Lots of people in Tallin were killed for having different opinions, i can provide a link later to photos of documents that clearly shows the unnecessary killing of Tallin civilians by Russian NKVD agents.

[independent]

You barely see Westerns emigrating to Russia, that was my point. The flow of people is from East to West, not the other way around.

That is absolutely right - but hey, I can't imagine either anyone from "ordinary" EU countries willing to
move baltic countries. Sure some must do it for short periods because of work - but those kind of
temporary emigration can't be counted...