Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia?

[Balkaneese]

...
Please give me concrete answers on these concrete questions.

I've already done that.

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To ALL PRO-Russians on this forum.
I have few concrete questions and I would like to get answers on them:
1. Why does anybody talks here about the events that preceded the conflict.

Because there is always a long and boring story preceding any conflict: Iraq, Kosovo, Lebanon, Baaaznia, etc.

2. Why does any of pro russians here expresses its concern about heavy Georgian civialian casualties?

Huh?

If you meand the concern about civilian casualties, I do express concern for them. BTW, much more civilian casulties were suffered on S. Ossetian side.

3. How it turned out that initaiallly declared number of 2000 civilian casualties in Ossetians decreased to 133(human rights watch confirms only 44)? Do you think it is moral to get into the race of numbers of deaths?

Why did NATO/USA/EU did the same in Baaaznia and Kosovo?

4. Do you know how manu civilians were killed in Chechnia?

Do you know haw many civilians were killed in Yugoslavia?

5.Why Russian troops have not opened humanitarian corridor so far? Don`t you think they are falsificating some facts in Tskhinvali, aiming to use body's of Georgians to increase the number of civilian casualties to initially declared number?

Corridor will be open when it's safe.

Fallacious operations are specialty of NATO/USA/EU. Russkies don't do that.

6. Why did russians used prohibited claster bombs in their attacks on Gori residential districts? (Dutch journalist fall victim of such bomb.)

Perhaps because NATO/USA/EU used them in Baaaaznia against Republika Srpska and in Kosovo against Yugoslavia?

8. Why none of you is concerned over the huge number of Georgian refugees, humanitarian catstrophe in Georgia, absolutely destroyed civilian infrastructure?

Why none of you is concerned over the huge number of efugees, humanitarian catastrophe and absolutely destroyed civilian infrastructure in:
1) Iraq (back in 1990)
2) Republika Srpska Krajina, (now occupied by Croatia)
3) Republika Srpska (now part of Baaaznia)
4) Serbia (incl. Kosovo)
5) Iraq
6) Afghanistan
7) Lebanon

9. Why Russian soldiers are still looting and why did they let in ossetian and north Caucasian militias to rob and kill Georgian civilians?

We don't buy your fairy tales. Russian soldiers don't do that. Volunteers yet may be another story, but Russia did announce she was unable to prevent them entering conflict zone, once Suck'a-a-a-AAA-sh-vilain started the war.

10.Don`t you think that South Ossetia and Abkhazia are now absolutely ethnically cleansed regions, where not a single Georgian resides?

So does Kosovo, Republika Srpska Krajina and those parts of Baaznia out of Republika Srpska. All under the auspicies of NATO/USA/EU.

Perhaps Russia is trying to cope with "EU standars"?

11. Why russians are destroying eco system of Georgia, bombing with fire bombs unique bio reserve, which is under fire now and will impose eco catastrophe in the whole region?

Just like in:
1) Iraq (back in 1990)?
2) Republika Srpska Krajina, (now occupied by Croatia)?
3) Republika Srpska (now part of Baaaznia)?
4) Serbia (incl. Kosovo)?
5) Iraq?
6) Afghanistan?
7) Lebanon?
Perhaps Russia is trying to cope with "EU standars"?

12. What is so special about Checnia that they have no right to demand anything and be killed without any justification?

Who told you that? Next time they want to put your brain in a wash-machine, don't let them do that.

13. Don`t you think that the future status of Abkhazia and South Ossetia could be determined only with the participation of all the residents of this regions, including Georgians who fleed out of their homes?

Ooops. But that way Russia would fail to "cope with EU standards" enacted in

1) Republika Srpska Krajina (now occupied by Croatia)
2) Republika Srpska (now part of occupied Baaaznia)
3) Montenegro
4) Kosovo

So, sorry.

14. Don`t you think that the fate of Ossetians is of no concern of Russia and their aim is to control Georgia?

Don't you think that the fate of small peoples of the Balkans is of no concern of NATO/USA/EU and their aim is to control us?

[AlexanderBB]

ALL PRo_RUSSIANS GIVE ME AT LEAST ONE EXAMPLE OF STARTING WAR BY GEORGIA OVER LAST 20 CENTURIES!

August 8, 2008, Georgia's Suck'a-a-a-AAA-sh-vilains attack on S. Ossetia.

1990, Georgia's Gamsahurdian's attacked S. Ossetia.

And You think someone would bilieve that false?

No. Why would anyone believe it's false when it's true?

The occupation of Ukraine by Russia - 1650s

You forgot to list occupation of Moscow before that

enjoyed your answers)))) lots of arguments))))

at least peoplle will get anough info to do the comparison and to decide who is who)

[Lor]

Dear Frederic !
Can you read?

Dear Lor!
I’m Russian, and I’m AGREE with George Friedman, so yuu may take all answers in here (if you really needs
them)
Go ahead –
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P.S. I agree with you that well bred and ill-bred people can be found everywhere

Dear Tatiana,
Maybe I am not as smart as you, but I could not find answers to my questions in the article you provided me with. I respect Mr. Friedman`s views but I asked for yours.

Funny enough this article didn't answer my questions as well:

1).Is it a coincidence that ALL the Ex-Soviet republics have a separatist region that is inhabitated by Russian nationalist, and that ALWAYS creates internal conflict and problems?
2) Is it a coincidence that Russia ALWAYS gives The ex republic's citizens that live in the separatist region PASSPORT, to the last dog, no matter if their nationality is Russian or not, FACT that is AGAINST the Republic's Constitution.??
3)Is it a coincidence that as we speak leaders of Ukraine, Moldova, Turkey and Kazakhstan had a crisis extraordinary meeting, because they already started to have problems with their "separatist regions" ?
4) Is it a coincidence that all the leaders of these countries, which i can bet are smarter than all Russian biased media, are somehow affraid that Russians will invade their borders to " protect their FAKE citizens"?

STILL waiting for NORMAL, EXPLICIT ANSWERS.

[Balkaneese]

...

STILL waiting for NORMAL, EXPLICIT ANSWERS.

And when you get them and don't like them, you just pretend you didn't hear them?

Why would anyone bother to respond to such an inquirer?

[Lor]

...

STILL waiting for NORMAL, EXPLICIT ANSWERS.

And when you get them and don't like them, you just pretend you didn't hear them?

Why would anyone bother to respond to such an inquirer?

GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF SUCH AN EXPLICIT ANSWER FROM YOUR SIDE , THAT I IGNORED!!

[Frederic]

...

STILL waiting for NORMAL, EXPLICIT ANSWERS.

And when you get them and don't like them, you just pretend you didn't hear them?

Why would anyone bother to respond to such an inquirer?

We have not received them yet. To be frank you were the only person on this forum who attempted to answer them, but as I have already told you, your answers were absolutely irrelevant. Actually you presented not answers, but contr questions concerning Iraq and Kosovo. But the forum is about Georgia, I guess. Your concerns about "Nato Gang" can be disscussed on another forum. Or maybe even here, but only after you answer on questions concerning Russia`s invasion. I know that you are not among the admirers of Mr. Sxeffer(secretary General of NATO), but let me quote him: I am ready to discuss anything, but not in a situation when Russian army is occupying sovereign state.

[SiD]

Lor that is why Putin called fall of Soviet Union a tragedy. It was dismantled with great haste. Becouse everybody was so eager to have tier own piece of pie many problems remained unresolved.
Please imagine that you Russian, you like russian culture you like r. people, language and so on. Your city is part of SU you do not care much becouse all other people are your compatriots, russian, georgians, belarus all. You live with your family happily in city . But suddenly empire is falling appart. You former compatriots are turning out to be people from other country. And you turn out to be not on Soviet but on foreign soil. Your life is here. And that goes for many others. But new government starts thier changes. People are refering to you as to accupant. They say you must become like them or get out. Your language becomes unnoficialy (sometimes officialy) forbiden and so on. Is it good for you?

There is your answer Lor it was given long ago. It is all just echo of fallen empire.

[Tatiana_Kirovsk]

Dear Frederic!
I can answer to you last question, sorry, I have enought brain but don't have spare time to answer all of them (like all ordinary people of the World, I'm too busy)
"13. Don`t you think that the future status of Abkhazia and South Ossetia could be determined only with the participation of all the residents of this regions, including Georgians who fleed out of their homes?
Please give me concrete answers on these concrete questions.13. Don`t you think that the future status of Abkhazia and South Ossetia could be determined only with the participation of all the residents of this regions, including Georgians who fleed out of their homes?
Please give me concrete answers on these concrete questions."
---------------------
I'm not a politician. so it's more important what THEY thinking......
"NATO membership now far away

The former chancellor, who was a close friend while of then Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin during his seven years in office, said Georgia's bid for NATO membership was now further off than before.
"Imagine that we had been forced into military action on the side of Georgia as a NATO member, on the side of an obvious gambler, as one must describe Saakashvili," Schroeder said.
"I don't believe Russia is pursuing a policy of annexation and I also don't believe that there will be a return to the previous status quo for South Ossetia and Abkhazia," Schroeder said, referring to the separatist Georgian regions. "That is out of the question."
Georgia and Ukraine, which is also seeking membership of the US-led Western alliance, had to resolve their internal difficulties first, he told Der Spiegel."

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Don't worry, I'm leaving by now
P.S. I don't like fishy games

[Salomo]

Hello everyone!
Don't we remember:
1)US - Nuclear bombing of Japan
2) US - Korea
3) US - Vietnam
4) US - Yugoslavia
5) US - Afganistan
6) US - Cambodia (overt and covert)
7) US - Lebanon (twice)
(8) US - Panama
(9) US - Guatemala (covert)
(10) US - Nicaragua (covert)
(11) US - Chile (covert)
(12) US - Colombia (covert)
(13) US - Cuba (semi-covert and continuing)
(14) US - San Salvador (covert)
(15) US - Venezuela (covert)
(16) US - Haiti
(17) US - Grenada
(18) US - Iran (twice–covert and overt)
(19) US - Philippines (covert)
(20) US - Laos (overt and covert)
(21) US - Iraq 2003
(22) US - …………………………………
And I guess quite few of US “Police operatons” resulted in 100s or 1000s of civilians killed.
Quite possible we feel the miss of WW3??????

Tatiana, you are right, I do not deny it. USA has done a lot of reprehensible operations. In my opinion, Hiroshima&Nagasaki, Vietnam and Chile were the worst. There are, of course, also operations which were more or less approved even by Russia – I am thinking about Afghanistan in 2001 – largely supported by most people condemning the Taliban regime, included probably womens' rights' organisations world-wide… (And I think Korea does not need to be on the list, the communist side was bad as well.)

To the list, we could add China for its invading and oppression of Tibet and Uighuria (Sinkiang).

The question is: does Russia really want to be as evil as the USA sometimes is???

The world would be much better without superpowers, don’t you agree?

Russia is not better than USA. Always thinking only of its own “security”. Come on! Small countries have much more security to think on: look how easy it is to get over small countries’ defence! Nobody will attack BIG countries, their independence is never in danger, but small countries’ independence is!

Please, could you superpowers just try a bit to look at things from small countries’ point of view. Russia has been aggressor or imperialistic towards its neighbours for centuries. Is it a wonder that all Russia’s neighbours want to join NATO, which they think would PROTECT them from being attacked by Russia?

In my opinion, it is just fine if one super-power is surrounded by countries of another military block or another kind of ideology: it keeps balance, so that one power does not get too much “monopole”. Russia, if you want more influence sphere, enlarge it closer to the USA, to not let USA and American companies have monopoles…and decide about everything. Have influence in Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua, Mexico, etc: be my guest. (I do not really like Hugo Chavez, but I think it may be positive to have some person in Latin America who strongly is opponent of American influence!)

[Frederic]

Dear Frederic!
I can answer to you last question, sorry, I have enought brain but don't have spare time to answer all of them (like all ordinary people of the World, I'm too busy)
"13. Don`t you think that the future status of Abkhazia and South Ossetia could be determined only with the participation of all the residents of this regions, including Georgians who fleed out of their homes?
Please give me concrete answers on these concrete questions.13. Don`t you think that the future status of Abkhazia and South Ossetia could be determined only with the participation of all the residents of this regions, including Georgians who fleed out of their homes?
Please give me concrete answers on these concrete questions."
---------------------
I'm not a politician. so it's more important what THEY thinking......
"NATO membership now far away

The former chancellor, who was a close friend while of then Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin during his seven years in office, said Georgia's bid for NATO membership was now further off than before.
"Imagine that we had been forced into military action on the side of Georgia as a NATO member, on the side of an obvious gambler, as one must describe Saakashvili," Schroeder said.
"I don't believe Russia is pursuing a policy of annexation and I also don't believe that there will be a return to the previous status quo for South Ossetia and Abkhazia," Schroeder said, referring to the separatist Georgian regions. "That is out of the question."
Georgia and Ukraine, which is also seeking membership of the US-led Western alliance, had to resolve their internal difficulties first, he told Der Spiegel."

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Don't worry, I'm leaving by now

Dear Busy Tatiana,
If I am not mistaken Chancellor of Germany is Mrs Merkel, not Mr. Shroeder. And Mrs Merkel said something quite different from her predessesor. As regards my questions, I have already understood that you don`t have answers. Is it essential to be politician to have an answer on the question:Why none of you is concerned over the huge number of Georgian refugees, humanitarian catstrophe in Georgia, absolutely destroyed civilian infrastructure? Why russians are destroying eco system of Georgia, bombing with fire bombs unique bio reserve, which is under fire now and will impose eco catastrophe in the whole region?
Thank you very much for your position. I think you are really pro-georgian on this forum as you make it possible for europeans to see the reall "human" face of russia. Good Luck in your job.

[tamara08]

Only Russia is responsible for this crisis. It is obvious to every person who can anlyze the information.

[tamara08]

Russian speakers, please read this article written by russian expert and you will undersatnd a lot.


«Это была не спонтанная, а спланированная война»


Сегодня мне совершенно очевидно, что российское вторжение в Грузию было заранее спланировано, причем окончательное политическое решение завершить подготовку и начать войну в августе было, похоже, принято еще в апреле.


Москве нестерпимо примириться с тем, что ехидный Саакашвили так и останется у власти в Тибилиси
И осетины намеренно провоцировали грузин, и любой ответ, жесткий или мягкий, был бы использован в качестве повода для нападения. А если бы грузины терпели безропотно, то абхазы бы начали, как сейчас, давно подготовленную операцию по «зачистке» верхней части Кодорского ущелья. Если война запланирована, предлог всегда найдется.

К августу значительная часть кораблей Черноморского флота была готова к длительному боевому выходу, части постоянной готовности Сухопутных войск, ВДВ и морской пехоты были готовы к выдвижению, а в ходе учений «Кавказ-2008», которые закончились 2 августа, за неделю до войны, силы ВВС, ВМФ и армии закончили на местности у грузинской границы последнюю проверку готовности. Одновременно к началу августа Железнодорожные войска в Абхазии закончили ремонт ж/д путей, по которым на этой неделе были переброшены к Ингури танки, тяжелая техника и предметы снабжения для примерно 10-тысячной группировки, вторгшейся без всякого повода или формальной причины в Западную Грузию. Естественно, ни для каких «народно-хозяйственных целей», как официально объявляла Москва, срочно отремонтированная железная дорога не использовалась. Государственный пропагандистский аппарат также провел подготовку, обрабатывая подконтрольное население постоянными сообщениями о неизбежном грузинском нападении и о том, что за этим стоят США и Запад, которым был абсолютно не нужен этот конфликт.

Естественно, нельзя бесконечно держать войска и флот в 24-часовой готовности к выдвижению. В октябре испортится погода, снег закроет перевалы Главного Кавказского хребта. Потому вторая половина августа была крайним сроком начала полномасштабной войны с Грузией.

В апреле на саммите НАТО в Бухаресте, в котором Путин принимал личное участие, стало ясно, что присоединение Грузии и Украины к альянсу, хоть пока решение отложено, неизбежно. Российские гражданские и военные начальники честно предупреждали как Запад, так и власти в Тбилиси и в Киеве, что попытки «затягивания в НАТО» (по словам наших дипломатов) стран, которые в Москве считают традиционной вотчиной, приведет к кризису. Было объявлено, что Россия «любыми средствами» не допустит вступления Грузии в НАТО, но на Михаила Саакашвили это не подействовало. Тогда события стали развиваться с нарастающей скоростью.

Путин поручил правительству «разработать меры по оказанию предметной помощи» Абхазии и Южной Осетии, что юридически отрицало государственный суверенитет Грузии. Потом российский истребитель сбил в небе Абхазии грузинский беспилотник. В Абхазию под видом миротворцев были введены боевые части с тяжелым наступательным оружием, потом — ж/д войска. Последовала серия маневров, вторжения российских боевых самолетов в грузинское небо, фактический отказ от дипломатического урегулирования конфликта под надуманными предлогами и наконец война, которая должна была окончательно освободить Абхазию и Южную Осетию от грузинского населения, Тбилиси — от Саакашвили, а Закавказье — от НАТО и американцев. В принципе Москва даже готова формально сохранить территориальную целостность Грузии в виде некой конфедерации и дать грузинам возможность демократически выбирать себе президентом любого, кого, желательно, одобрят и в Москве.

Точно так же российское руководство готовило в 99-м вторжение в Чечню. Тогда еще ранней весной, по свидетельству бывшего премьера Сергея Степашина, было принято принципиальное решение начать войну в августе-сентябре. Все лето шла инженерная и прочая подготовка к развертыванию ударных группировок. Тогда Путин и его команда восстанавливали территориальную целостность РФ, сегодня, похоже, взялись за выстраивание постсоветского пространства.

В 99-м вторжение чеченских боевиков в Дагестан стало предлогом к войне, но его неожиданный начальный успех привел к кризису и к замене Степашина Путиным. Сегодня неожиданно мощный удар Саакашвили — мгновенный разгром осетинских формирований — тоже серьезно спутал карты. У Москвы больше не было возможности притворяться, что это, мол, храбрые осетины сражаются с режимом Саакашвили, а наши лишь пытаются развести стороны, установить мир и только для этого вводят войска. Пришлось начать неприкрытое вторжение, нести потери и подвергнуться западному давлению, невозможному для интегрированной в мировую финансовую систему российской бюрократии.

Войска пришлось бросать в бой сравнительно небольшими отрядами. В Рокском туннеле (6 км длинной), который из-за узости может использоваться переменно только для одностороннего движения, на дороге к Джаве и к Цхинвали возникли чудовищные пробки. Постоянно ломалась устаревшая, ветхая российская техника. Вывоз раненых и гражданских, подход совершенно не нужных в данной ситуации добровольцев — все привело к чудовищному и продолжающемуся сегодня кризису со снабжением, а передовые сравнительно малочисленные силы пришлось бросать в бой с колес по частям.

Выдвинутые к Цхинвали 8 августа отборные части, включая спецназ ВДВ, почти два дня не могли выбить грузин из города, несмотря на массированное использование артиллерии, танков и боевой авиации. Даже командующего 58-й армии генерала Анатолия Хрулева, который отправился на передовую навести порядок, грузины ранили. Грузинские регулярные войска вышли из Цхинвали, только подчиняясь приказу политического руководства. Замначальника Генштаба Анатолий Ноговицын признал, что вооруженные силы Грузии не те, что 15 лет назад проиграли войну сепаратистам: «В настоящий момент это современная, хорошо отмобилизованная группировка, оснащенная современным оружием».

После выхода из Цхин¬вали грузинские войска продолжили отступление. К 11 августа почти вся армия была сконцентрирована вокруг Тбилиси. К тому времени на территории Грузии, включая Осетию и Абхазию, было выдвинуто до 20 тыс. наших солдат. Передовые отряды подошли к Гори, заняли Зугдиди, вошли в Сенаки и разрушили там грузинскую военную базу. Передовая разведка вошла в город-порт Поти. Грузинские войска почти везде отступали, не ввязываясь в бои. Российские войска далеко оторвались от баз снабжения, их слишком мало для успешной оккупации, их передвижения по Грузии утратили смысл и только вели к дальнейшим потерям в технике из-за постоянных поломок. Приказав отступать, грузинское руководство сохранило регулярную армию, которая молниеносным разгромом осетин подняла свой престиж в обществе. Сохранив армию, Саакашвили сохранил, как ему кажется, единую Грузию и одновременно основу собственного режима, а разбираться с российским вторжением он предоставил западным лидерам и дипломатам.

Всю свою историю грузинский народ прожил на стыке враждующих мировых империй и научился такой гибкости в вопросах выживания и использования одних сильных противников против других, что нашим не снилось. Некоторым нынешним российским руководителям только кажется, что они действуют, как Сталин.

Разрушенные военные базы и прочая инфраструктура будут восстановлены на западные деньги, и при этом еще появятся новые рабочие места. Разбитые радары и оружие заменят новым и лучшим. При этом Саакашвили успешно решил свою основную стратегическую задачу — окончательно интернационализировал осетинскую и абхазскую проблемы, что в конечном итоге может привести к последовательному вытеснению России и снижению ее влияния в регионе. Еще в конце июня в Тбилиси французский посол в Грузии Эрик Форнье заявлял в присутствии корреспондента «Новой»: «Международное сообщество не считает Абхазию и Осетию серьезной проблемой. У нас есть Иран, Афганистан, Судан, Ливан, Ирак. Никто в Брюсселе не рассматривает возможность развертывания международных миротворческих сил в регионе. У ЕС все равно нет лишних солдат для подобного маловажного вопроса. Это вообще дело русских, Россия ключевой игрок в регионе».

Теперь все кардинально переменилось, российское вторжение пробудило Европу. Президент Франции Николя Саркози выдвинул мирный план, согласованный с союзниками по НАТО и с Японией, который предусматривает безусловное прекращение огня, возвращение всех беженцев, в том числе в Абхазию, полный вывод российских и грузинских войск из зон конфликта и введение международных миротворческих сил, которые будут также включать российский контингент. Прежний формат единоличного российского миротворчества больше совершенно неприемлем для Запада, наша агрессия все перечеркнула. Для простых людей на Кавказе, для осетин, грузин, абхазов и прочих такой исход означает реальный мир, безопасность, огромную иностранную помощь для восстановления и развития региона. Для России это может означать военно-политическое поражение в результате успешного вроде бы вторжения.

Понятно, что с ходу французский план был отвергнут нашим послом в ООН Виталием Чуркиным как неприемлемый, но потом Москва начала маневрировать. Нынешняя зависимая от Запада Россия может много говорить о своей возрожденной мощи, но на поверку выходит несколько иначе. Дело не только в том, что старая техника постоянно ломается, а грузины оказываются способны сбивать наши сверхзвуковые стратегические бомбардировщики. Все российские лидеры, как из фракции «силовиков», так и «либералы» — по сути бизнесмены-миллиардеры, их личные интересы связаны с Западом, с биржевыми котировками, их главная политическая цель — «модернизация России», а вторжение в Грузию их всех сегодня разоряет и явно грозит еще большими неприятностями в будущем. Сохраняя возможность интеграции России с Западом, во вторник президент Дмитрий Медведев объявил «о прекращении операции по принуждению к миру в Южной Осетии». По словам Ноговицина, это означает прекращение огня.

Но ничего еще не кончено. В Москве еще надеются сместить Саакашвили, хотя это вряд ли выйдет, и любой его приемник, например изгнанник Ираклий Окруашвили, с которым Саакашвили публично помирился, будет не лучше. Конфликт осложнен, видимо, личной сильной неприязнью между Саакашвили и Путиным. В Тбилиси в дипломатических и политических кругах говорят о том, что Саакашвили пренебрежительно при свидетелях отзывался о «кремлевских». При личной встрече Саакашвили сказал мне и разрешил напечатать, что слышал об этих слухах, но сам ничего такого не говорил, а «это все провокации российских спецслужб».

Нестерпимо примириться с тем, что ехидный Саакашвили, который вывел Грузию из СНГ, объявил Абхазию и Южную Осетию официально оккупированными территориями, с которым нашим руководителям невозможно состязаться в публичной уличной политике, так и останется у власти в Тбилиси. В прикремлевских кругах требуют создать специальный международный трибунал по преступлениям на Кавказе. («Новая газета», кстати, считает это необходимым, при условии, что расследование затронет все стороны конфликта. — П. Ф.) Однако даже если подобный трибунал будет вдруг создан, хотя уже существует занимающийся военными преступлениями Международный уголовный суд, то его юрисдикция распространиться и на российское военно-политическое руководство, которое может в первую очередь оказаться под ударом за прошлые дела на Северном Кавказе и за нынешние. Раз учрежденный, Международный трибунал не будет зависеть от российских властей, а будет руководствоваться правом.

По свидетельству очевидцев, на территорию Грузии введена через Рокский тоннель ракетная бригада 58-й армии — системы залпового огня (РСЗО) «Ураган» и баллистические ракеты «Точка-У». Системы РСЗО «Град» (калибр 122 мм) крайне мало эффективны при ударах по городам и по окопавшимся войскам, в отличие от значительно более мощных «Ураган» (220 мм). Из района Цхинвали «Точка-У» (радиус 110 км) может поражать Тбилиси и окружающие районы. Фугасно-осколочная боеголовка «Точки-У» накрывает три гектара, кассетная — 7.

РСЗО «Ураган» и ракеты «Точка-У» массово применялись для обстрела Чечни в 1999 и 2000 годах, что привело к массовой гибели мирных жителей и разрушениям. На прошлой неделе ракетами «Точка-У» были обстреляны из Абхазии цели в Западной Грузии. Пуски были зарегистрированы американской глобальной системой слежения за ракетными пусками. Абхазские власти заявили, что это они произвели пуски баллистических ракет. Теперь наши могут также утверждать, что это осетины (а не 58-я армия) наносят удары по Тбилиси в отместку, мол, за Цхинвали. Подобные удары, несомненно, вызовут в Тбилиси страшную панику, и может еще удастся свергнуть режим Саакашвили.

Прекращение огня будет очень шатким до того момента, пока в Грузию не войдут иностранные миротворческие контингенты.

Павел Фельгенгауэр
обозреватель «Новой»

[SiD]

And what should we understand? kremlin planned the war while Saakashvili was smoking? :lol: .Is it all that you analyzed to make desigion who started this war?

[SVP]

The only thing I realized, Pavel Felgengauer earned lots of money. Hard currency. Heh. For your information: Russian troops are ALWAYS ready in the Caucasus. You guys in the west try to understand Russian politics in Caucasus, but you know nothing about Russia, and absolutely nothing about Caucasus, while we (Russia and Caucasus) know everything about each other. Do you believe mentality exist? Do you believe mentalities differ like black and white? You gave a grenade to a monkey, even to a baby monkey, who started playing with it immediately. Do you trust in it that traditions (especially in the Caucasus) are still alive and much stronger than you think? Are you aware ov vendetta tradition which will live forever in the Caucasus? To understand what's happening in the Caucasus, you must live there for several years, just to find out in the end, that you're a stranger at this fiesta of life, with your western visions of how it should be :-) About Pavel Felgengauer - this is a bright example of a biased journalist, who is ALWAYS agains Russia, its authorities, its people etc. Against by default. That's why what he is writing is bullshit, because he was not there, in the epicentre, he was sitting in Moscow, drinking whisky in comfort, and earning his blood money. I respect other journalists - WHO WERE THERE, not matter, on which side. And, there are thousands of these anti-Russian journalists here, in Russia. They exist peacefully, wrire their bullshit, wash people's brains, and nobody sends them to Siberia for that, by the way, as someone said above (you have outdated info). Solzhenitsin returned to New Russia, today's Russia. Politkovskaya was killed by your beloved Chechens.

[IamGEORGIA]

The only thing I realized, Pavel Felgengauer earned lots of money. Hard currency. Heh. For your information: Russian troops are ALWAYS ready in the Caucasus. You guys in the west try to understand Russian politics in Caucasus, but you know nothing about Russia, and absolutely nothing about Caucasus, while we (Russia and Caucasus) know everything about each other. Do you believe mentality exist? Do you believe mentalities differ like black and white? You gave a grenade to a monkey, even to a baby monkey, who started playing with it immediately. Do you trust in it that traditions (especially in the Caucasus) are still alive and much stronger than you think? Are you aware ov vendetta tradition which will live forever in the Caucasus? To understand what's happening in the Caucasus, you must live there for several years, just to find out in the end, that you're a stranger at this fiesta of life, with your western visions of how it should be :-) About Pavel Felgengauer - this is a bright example of a biased journalist, who is ALWAYS agains Russia, its authorities, its people etc. Against by default. That's why what he is writing is bullshit, because he was not there, in the epicentre, he was sitting in Moscow, drinking whisky in comfort, and earning his blood money. I respect other journalists - WHO WERE THERE, not matter, on which side. And, there are thousands of these anti-Russian journalists here, in Russia. They exist peacefully, wrire their bullshit, wash people's brains, and nobody sends them to Siberia for that, by the way, as someone said above (you have outdated info). Solzhenitsin returned to New Russia, today's Russia. Politkovskaya was killed by your beloved Chechens.

Very profound misinfromation my friend..
It seems that you have no idea what Caucasian Mentality means..People in caucasus are absolutely different from those in north..there are lot of differences..That fact that caucasus was and even now is the most problematic place for russia is fact..why?

2. Maybe you do not know much about politkovskaia..maybe you do not know anything about so called teracts in moscow..maybe you do not know anything about nord ost..
You just know facts, that russian controlled tvs say..
Open your eyes..read and watch what other world says..

[Snow]

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[Snow]

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[SVP]

To IamGEORGIA:

You're a funny Georgian. That's exatly what I said - people in the Caucasus are absolutely different from those in the North - that is Russians, Germans, English, Norwegians etc. When somebody tells me that I don't know the real truth but he OF COURSE knows the very very real truth, I dunno what to say :-) Because such people offer no evidence, no 100% proofs, they just say I'm wrong. So, OK, I'm wrong :-) And, I emphasize once again - peoples of the world, if you hear some Georgian say something - trust him with no hesitation. First - Georgians know all the truth, and second - they never lie :-) But I'm a Russian, and you know you cannot trust me :-) End of discussion.

But, seriously, Russia is full of these felgenhauers (by the way, he's not a Russian expert, he's a Jewish expert, to be more presise, though, there are Russian experts of Jewish origin whom I respect), and as I said, and it is the fact - that they work freely here, nobody arrests them, or shuts their mouths down.

And, also seriously, the Caucases is the problem not only for Russians, but also for the Caucases itself, and now - for the whole world. You won't deny, that, for example, in between the two Chechen campaigns, Chechnya which enjoyed actual, de facto independence for 3 years, wasn't leading a peaceful life. Thousands of hostages were taken, not only from the nearby Russian regions, but from Chechnya itself - Chechens took Chechens hostages! And sold them to relatives for money, no money - no honey, please receive first fingers, then head. Several western engineers who came to Chechnya to recover the country, were captured and decapitated. hen they invaded Dagestan. The sharia rules - people were shot in market squares with the crowd enjoying. Etc, etc. By the way, Georgia was welcoming the "guerillas" on its territory. Russia's enemy is our friend :-) And whatever you say, Putin did not start that war (1994-1996). But he ended it (1999-2002). What I mean, is that absolute majority of Chechens live peacefully now. Aquaparks are opened, gala concerts take place, etc. Moscow Institutes have special quotas for the Chechnya students (I mean, no entrance exams). The war is over. And, by the way, the Chechen fighters, which (I agree) are the best in the world, were among the Russian troops that your so called army (beatifully decorated with NATO uniform ribbons and flowers) ran away from, in panic, leaving their guns, courage and dignity far beyond. Hope, you won't deny at least, this fact :-) Because CNN showed it, not Russian TV.

About what other world says. It says different things, absolutely different (I gave links previously). Some just repeat the propaganda from your biased TV and other mass media. Others think themselves, and they see the truth, what happens worldwide. They are not necessarily in love with Russia, they may even hate it, but they see the global scale events. Thus, I study and read and listen and view all sources, absolutely. But, sorry, the whole world cannot know better than than Russians, Ossetians and Georgians. If we take all these three truths, we'll get the final truth. I support Medvedev-Putin not because they are the Russian President and PM, and I don't support them in all cases. I support, bacause I really agree in this case. There were other Russian presidents - Gorby and Yeltsin. I tell you - those were shitheads, and criminals, with their hands in blood, plus, both were stupid. But why can't you agree that Saakashvili is a shithead too, that his hands are in blood too - blood of Ossetians and the Georgians, and tens of the Russian peacekeepers, whom he attacked at night? He's mentally challenged, these are not only my words, many in the west admit this. Running away from own jets, speaking to Georgians in English, eating his tie publicly. I have never seen a more pitiful sight than your president, actually. That's not a man, not a real Caucasian man, most of whom are tough and cruel, but not cowards like him. I'm sure, even in the same situation - Georgia wants to join NATO and hates Russia as much as it can, nothing would happen, if there was some really smart man (or better a woman, like Burdzhanadze) instead of the psycho as Georgian President, there would be no conflict at all, not speaking of war. He shitted on the shahshlyk of Georgia, sorry.

[IamGEORGIA]

To IamGEORGIA:

You're a funny Georgian. That's exatly what I said - people in the Caucasus are absolutely different from those in the North - that is Russians, Germans, English, Norwegians etc. When somebody tells me that I don't know the real truth but he OF COURSE knows the very very real truth, I dunno what to say :-) Because such people offer no evidence, no 100% proofs, they just say I'm wrong. So, OK, I'm wrong :-) And, I emphasize once again - peoples of the world, if you hear some Georgian say something - trust him with no hesitation. First - Georgians know all the truth, and second - they never lie :-) But I'm a Russian, and you know you cannot trust me :-) End of discussion.

But, seriously, Russia is full of these felgenhauers (by the way, he's not a Russian expert, he's a Jewish expert, to be more presise, though, there are Russian experts of Jewish origin whom I respect), and as I said, and it is the fact - that they work freely here, nobody arrests them, or shuts their mouths down.

And, also seriously, the Caucases is the problem not only for Russians, but also for the Caucases itself, and now - for the whole world. You won't deny, that, for example, in between the two Chechen campaigns, Chechnya which enjoyed actual, de facto independence for 3 years, wasn't leading a peaceful life. Thousands of hostages were taken, not only from the nearby Russian regions, but from Chechnya itself - Chechens took Chechens hostages! And sold them to relatives for money, no money - no honey, please receive first fingers, then head. Several western engineers who came to Chechnya to recover the country, were captured and decapitated. hen they invaded Dagestan. The sharia rules - people were shot in market squares with the crowd enjoying. Etc, etc. By the way, Georgia was welcoming the "guerillas" on its territory. Russia's enemy is our friend :-) And whatever you say, Putin did not start that war (1994-1996). But he ended it (1999-2002). What I mean, is that absolute majority of Chechens live peacefully now. Aquaparks are opened, gala concerts take place, etc. Moscow Institutes have special quotas for the Chechnya students (I mean, no entrance exams). The war is over. And, by the way, the Chechen fighters, which (I agree) are the best in the world, were among the Russian troops that your so called army (beatifully decorated with NATO uniform ribbons and flowers) ran away from, in panic, leaving their guns, courage and dignity far beyond. Hope, you won't deny at least, this fact :-) Because CNN showed it, not Russian TV.

About what other world says. It says different things, absolutely different (I gave links previously). Some just repeat the propaganda from your biased TV and other mass media. Others think themselves, and they see the truth, what happens worldwide. They are not necessarily in love with Russia, they may even hate it, but they see the global scale events. Thus, I study and read and listen and view all sources, absolutely. But, sorry, the whole world cannot know better than than Russians, Ossetians and Georgians. If we take all these three truths, we'll get the final truth. I support Medvedev-Putin not because they are the Russian President and PM, and I don't support them in all cases. I support, bacause I really agree in this case. There were other Russian presidents - Gorby and Yeltsin. I tell you - those were shitheads, and criminals, with their hands in blood, plus, both were stupid. But why can't you agree that Saakashvili is a shithead too, that his hands are in blood too - blood of Ossetians and the Georgians, and tens of the Russian peacekeepers, whom he attacked at night? He's mentally challenged, these are not only my words, many in the west admit this. Running away from own jets, speaking to Georgians in English, eating his tie publicly. I have never seen a more pitiful sight than your president, actually. That's not a man, not a real Caucasian man, most of whom are tough and cruel, but not cowards like him. I'm sure, even in the same situation - Georgia wants to join NATO and hates Russia as much as it can, nothing would happen, if there was some really smart man (or better a woman, like Burdzhanadze) instead of the psycho as Georgian President, there would be no conflict at all, not speaking of war. He shitted on the shahshlyk of Georgia, sorry.

My friend,
maybe i misunderstood in some point..sorry for that..
Now..First of all i wanna disagree about Caucasus..caucasus can not be problem for caucasus...historicalyy people in our mountains were brothers, had traditions, relationships and were living together before russia started spoiling water..
You mentioned Chechnnya...If russia had right to claim thet Chechnya was the part of russian feederatin, adn their independence was de-facto, why could not georgia decide what to do with its ouw part?Its very logical..
If you say that Chechens wanted to live with russia, it wont be very true..You know that most of them fighted for the independence, started from thei first president Djokhar Dudaev..But russian killed, made ethnic cleanse of that warior nation, and then re-captured it...
If you say that Ossetioan or Abkhazians want to live with russia, it also wont be very truth..Because 300 000 from Abkhazia and 100 000 from Ossetia are refugees and are displaced by wars...So let them back on their own teritorym and then ask them with whom they want to live..this would be fair..

The next point is our army..yes some treator chechens fight among your occupants..
but it was chechnya who was helping us in 92-94 in wars, and helped our president to hide from russian tanks..(there were also some terorists who were playing football with heads of georgian soldiers in Sukhumi)

Im sure all your mass media is talking now how great victory russian army had in Tskinvali few days ago..
Yes you really did it...but only after you started air attack..before that our army destroyed many of peacekeepers...its fact..(even some russian soldiers today and yesterday, were shouting to georgian media "pachemu miratvorcev ubili v Tskinvali..tam staialatisicha i tisicha"..they are angry, because loses among russian troops were huge..your official would not say this of course..
I breifly explain what happened there..When we took Tskinvali, our troops decided to leave it, because russia started bobing whole country, not only conflict zone..they left the regions immediately and dissapeared..alsoe dissapeared our military equipment..of course some of them were left on their way, but most of them are in safe place.as well as our army...our army did their job..now its turn for international peacekeepers..and then we will gain control over both regions..

P.S. the thing, that you feel like this about our president, makes me think, that he is the right man for our country...every time russian official or whoever say something against hi, he is becoming more and more popular...

[Terry]

Saakashvili looks really protected in his country
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[SVP]

My friend,
maybe i misunderstood in some point..sorry for that..
Now..First of all i wanna disagree about Caucasus..caucasus can not be problem for caucasus...historicalyy people in our mountains were brothers, had traditions, relationships and were living together before russia started spoiling water..

Funny again. Of course, those Russians spoiled the whole thing. Before Russia you were angels, afterwards started throatcutting each other :-) I repeat - there are tons of problems in the Caucasus. All the Russian Caucasus Republics are heavily subsidized (and there's a saying 'the richest people live in the poorest regions of Caucasus). Russia does not have any profits from the regions. I, personally, would grant independence to everybody who wants it, to every village. But there will be chaos and bloodshed. By the way, just imagine, what would happen if US stops paying Georgia its billions of dollars? What would you do? What do you produce? In the USSR I have never seen a product marked "Made in Georgia", except tea (which was disgusting, really, dusty) and wine. Wine is not bad, but I prefer Italian and French wine, which is better to me, and way cheaper(!) by the way. Your only hope is the US money - for the NATO bases which will be placed in Georgia, for the loyalty, for the army, for providing the US dominance in the region.

You mentioned Chechnnya...If russia had right to claim thet Chechnya was the part of russian feederatin, adn their independence was de-facto, why could not georgia decide what to do with its ouw part?Its very logical..

Yes, Chechnya is part of the Russian Federation, and things there are much much better now than in the 1990's - you cannot deny it. This is always a very complex question. One the one hand, territorial integrity of a state, on the other hand - the wish and right of the people to rule their own fate. If 100% of the people of the republic say WE WANT INDEPENDENCE, we DO NOT WANT TO LIVE WITH YOU, how can you reconvince them? Definitely not by force, you agree? You can only kill by force. So, this situation lasted for years, without status, but at least without war. The fire started after Kosovo was recognized, the separatist movement there was supported by your main ally - the US, who recognized its independence first. Russia warned - don't do it, because if we accept this standard, we'll have to apply it everywhere. Russia was ignored. Then Ossetians and Abkhazians asked the world - why Kosovo can, we - can't? The world said nothing - just ignored. So this is a puzzle - why one and the same country - the US - recognize one country and ignores another? Double standards. I don't like this world.

If you say that Chechens wanted to live with russia, it wont be very true..You know that most of them fighted for the independence, started from thei first president Djokhar Dudaev..But russian killed, made ethnic cleanse of that warior nation, and then re-captured it...

Wrong. You cannot capture Chechnya. Nobody can - because of the Chechen warriors (sorry, they are not Georgians). You can only completely destroy it, that is by genocide. If there was such an objective - trust me - it would have been done. You must use the combination of methods to get Chechnya back to Russia. Fighting the mad ones, and offering a deal to reasonable guys. Deal - not money in an envelope (which I don't exclude), but things Chechens really wanted and asked for. They got what they asked for. We got stability. And continue to pay for this stability. I repeat - if the majority of the Chechens did not decide for themselves, that it's more profitable for them to be with Russia than without - nobody could have got them back.

If you say that Ossetioan or Abkhazians want to live with russia, it also wont be very truth..Because 300 000 from Abkhazia and 100 000 from Ossetia are refugees and are displaced by wars...So let them back on their own teritorym and then ask them with whom they want to live..this would be fair..

The problem is it's not me, who says that :-) It's not even Russian TV. It's Ossetians and Abkhazians. You call them bandits, I would agree there are some 5-10% of all the fighters (not of the population, I mean men with guns) who can be called bandits (it's Caucasus, after all). But not all the population. You mean 300000 plus 100000 Georgian refugees from the two republics? Why spend time asking them? We know the answer of the Georgians :-) You ask Abkhazians and Ossetians, and 99% if not 100% would tell you they do not want to be with Georgia definitely. Who would listen to the Russians living in Chechnya - of course they would be for Russia. You must ask Chechens. So, what would be fair - to ask Abkhazians and Ossetians, and do whatever they wish. If they say - we want Georgia, fuck Russia, I will accept this easily. If my country will still "spoil the water" after that, I will protest and change my mind about my country's leaders.

The next point is our army..yes some treator chechens fight among your occupants..
but it was chechnya who was helping us in 92-94 in wars, and helped our president to hide from russian tanks..(there were also some terorists who were playing football with heads of georgian soldiers in Sukhumi)

Those were other Chechens, their heads are rotting somewhere. Actually, we're not occupants. You just don't know what is occupation. It's when the foreign army comes to your land and takes it under full control. Occupation troops control everything - the civil life, the courts, they apply their own laws, and cancel all the local laws, etc. Russia never wanted to occupy Georgia, again - if there was such an objective - Russia would easily do it. Trust me. Us would not start a WWIII because of you. We all know that. Military targets were destroyed. Of course, there were civilian casualties, like in any war, even with hi precision weapons. I'm very sorry for that, sincerely. Because I know, that civilians are innocent victims, and everybody can become such a victim. But thank you president - if you start a war - be ready to die. The problem is, Saakashvili is not ready to die at all. Not him. Not in this life :-) But he's willingly sacrificing his people. By the way, I'm not sure that you know - because Russian info sources are blocked in Georgia - do you know that tens of Georgian soldiers are still rotting around Tshinvali? The Ossetian side asked Saakashvili to take his soldiers back to there moms. No reply. He does not need them anymore. So, the soldiers were finally buried by the Ossetians.

Im sure all your mass media is talking now how great victory russian army had in Tskinvali few days ago..
Yes you really did it...but only after you started air attack..before that our army destroyed many of peacekeepers...its fact..(even some russian soldiers today and yesterday, were shouting to georgian media "pachemu miratvorcev ubili v Tskinvali..tam staialatisicha i tisicha"..they are angry, because loses among russian troops were huge..your official would not say this of course..

I'm glad you confirm the fact that Russian peacekeepers were intentionally killed by Georgian troops. And yes, there was complete silence for several hours before the Georgian assault. This is confirmed by all sources, including anti-Kremlin ones. There was silence, because the Georgians (Yakobashvili came to Tshinvali on August 7 for talks) promised complete cease fire until next day, 1 pm. When talks had to be continued. The Russian army was in Russia at this time, it would come almost in 24 hours after your assault. I'll describe the start of the war in more detail later. About our casualties - there are official lists, there are 64 dead and around 400 wounded. If you repeat your presidents bullshit about some thousands of killed Russians, you'll look funny again. How this can be kept secret in Russia? We have thousands of your friends among journalists, they would bring this to the public immediately, because you can hide figures, but you cannot hide hundreds or thousands of zink coffins, and you cannot hide the boys' mothers. I know you want thousands Russian in a dead condition, but sorry....

I breifly explain what happened there..When we took Tskinvali, our troops decided to leave it, because russia started bobing whole country, not only conflict zone..they left the regions immediately and dissapeared..alsoe dissapeared our military equipment..of course some of them were left on their way, but most of them are in safe place.as well as our army...our army did their job..now its turn for international peacekeepers..and then we will gain control over both regions..

You never took Tshinvali completely, because if you had taken it, there would be no Ossetians alive - that was the purpose of the mission. "Clean Field" - that was the name of the operation, if I'm not mistaken? Scorched Earth is closer. Or you want to say, that after having killed half of the Ossetians (Grads were used for that purpose), you would come the survivors, ask them if they want to be with Georgia and they would gladly say YES?

Of course, we used aviation, like the Georgians. The sky above Tshinvali was all yours before our guys came. This story about "our Army decided to play hide-and-seek" with the Russians. It is true. They got hidden so well, that even Supreme Commander In Chief of the Georgian ARmed Forces could not find it. It's not my fantasy. I saw it on CNN. The CNN talking head was asking Saakashvili - where is his Army, he angrily replied - I dunno, I dunno nothing. Then somebody saw tanks approaching Tbilisi - Russians, Russians! But that was part of your Army, that got lost :-) You definitely cannot call that running of Georgian Army a retreat, a maneuver. That, according to CNN again (!) I heard this with my own ears, was a stampede, panic flight, the morals being very low. The military were the first to run, then police and city authorities - next. The running military were shouting to civilians to get away too. I wonder - what is Georgian Army paid for? Isn't it their duty to die for the mortherland while fighting the aggressor? Defenfders :-)

P.S. the thing, that you feel like this about our president, makes me think, that he is the right man for our country...every time russian official or whoever say something against hi, he is becoming more and more popular...

That is what I said. No matter what Saakashvili does, he's against Russia - that means he's our man! He he. I hope very much, that Medvedev really won't ever talk to Saakashvili or shake his hand. If he does, I'll be very upset. That means no normalisation is possible between Russia and Georgia. That means tension. Which nobody wants, including US and Europe. Normal people resign after such fiascos, people of honor shoot themselves. But it's not about your president. I think, the US and Saakashvili itself will insist at his staying in power, though it is another trap for Georgia, but he does not seem to care much about it.

[IamGEORGIA]

My friend,
maybe i misunderstood in some point..sorry for that..
Now..First of all i wanna disagree about Caucasus..caucasus can not be problem for caucasus...historicalyy people in our mountains were brothers, had traditions, relationships and were living together before russia started spoiling water..

Funny again. Of course, those Russians spoiled the whole thing. Before Russia you were angels, afterwards started throatcutting each other :-) I repeat - there are tons of problems in the Caucasus. All the Russian Caucasus Republics are heavily subsidized (and there's a saying 'the richest people live in the poorest regions of Caucasus). Russia does not have any profits from the regions. I, personally, would grant independence to everybody who wants it, to every village. But there will be chaos and bloodshed. By the way, just imagine, what would happen if US stops paying Georgia its billions of dollars? What would you do? What do you produce? In the USSR I have never seen a product marked "Made in Georgia", except tea (which was disgusting, really, dusty) and wine. Wine is not bad, but I prefer Italian and French wine, which is better to me, and way cheaper(!) by the way. Your only hope is the US money - for the NATO bases which will be placed in Georgia, for the loyalty, for the army, for providing the US dominance in the region.

You mentioned Chechnnya...If russia had right to claim thet Chechnya was the part of russian feederatin, adn their independence was de-facto, why could not georgia decide what to do with its ouw part?Its very logical..

Yes, Chechnya is part of the Russian Federation, and things there are much much better now than in the 1990's - you cannot deny it. This is always a very complex question. One the one hand, territorial integrity of a state, on the other hand - the wish and right of the people to rule their own fate. If 100% of the people of the republic say WE WANT INDEPENDENCE, we DO NOT WANT TO LIVE WITH YOU, how can you reconvince them? Definitely not by force, you agree? You can only kill by force. So, this situation lasted for years, without status, but at least without war. The fire started after Kosovo was recognized, the separatist movement there was supported by your main ally - the US, who recognized its independence first. Russia warned - don't do it, because if we accept this standard, we'll have to apply it everywhere. Russia was ignored. Then Ossetians and Abkhazians asked the world - why Kosovo can, we - can't? The world said nothing - just ignored. So this is a puzzle - why one and the same country - the US - recognize one country and ignores another? Double standards. I don't like this world.

If you say that Chechens wanted to live with russia, it wont be very true..You know that most of them fighted for the independence, started from thei first president Djokhar Dudaev..But russian killed, made ethnic cleanse of that warior nation, and then re-captured it...

Wrong. You cannot capture Chechnya. Nobody can - because of the Chechen warriors (sorry, they are not Georgians). You can only completely destroy it, that is by genocide. If there was such an objective - trust me - it would have been done. You must use the combination of methods to get Chechnya back to Russia. Fighting the mad ones, and offering a deal to reasonable guys. Deal - not money in an envelope (which I don't exclude), but things Chechens really wanted and asked for. They got what they asked for. We got stability. And continue to pay for this stability. I repeat - if the majority of the Chechens did not decide for themselves, that it's more profitable for them to be with Russia than without - nobody could have got them back.

If you say that Ossetioan or Abkhazians want to live with russia, it also wont be very truth..Because 300 000 from Abkhazia and 100 000 from Ossetia are refugees and are displaced by wars...So let them back on their own teritorym and then ask them with whom they want to live..this would be fair..

The problem is it's not me, who says that :-) It's not even Russian TV. It's Ossetians and Abkhazians. You call them bandits, I would agree there are some 5-10% of all the fighters (not of the population, I mean men with guns) who can be called bandits (it's Caucasus, after all). But not all the population. You mean 300000 plus 100000 Georgian refugees from the two republics? Why spend time asking them? We know the answer of the Georgians :-) You ask Abkhazians and Ossetians, and 99% if not 100% would tell you they do not want to be with Georgia definitely. Who would listen to the Russians living in Chechnya - of course they would be for Russia. You must ask Chechens. So, what would be fair - to ask Abkhazians and Ossetians, and do whatever they wish. If they say - we want Georgia, fuck Russia, I will accept this easily. If my country will still "spoil the water" after that, I will protest and change my mind about my country's leaders.

The next point is our army..yes some treator chechens fight among your occupants..
but it was chechnya who was helping us in 92-94 in wars, and helped our president to hide from russian tanks..(there were also some terorists who were playing football with heads of georgian soldiers in Sukhumi)

Those were other Chechens, their heads are rotting somewhere. Actually, we're not occupants. You just don't know what is occupation. It's when the foreign army comes to your land and takes it under full control. Occupation troops control everything - the civil life, the courts, they apply their own laws, and cancel all the local laws, etc. Russia never wanted to occupy Georgia, again - if there was such an objective - Russia would easily do it. Trust me. Us would not start a WWIII because of you. We all know that. Military targets were destroyed. Of course, there were civilian casualties, like in any war, even with hi precision weapons. I'm very sorry for that, sincerely. Because I know, that civilians are innocent victims, and everybody can become such a victim. But thank you president - if you start a war - be ready to die. The problem is, Saakashvili is not ready to die at all. Not him. Not in this life :-) But he's willingly sacrificing his people. By the way, I'm not sure that you know - because Russian info sources are blocked in Georgia - do you know that tens of Georgian soldiers are still rotting around Tshinvali? The Ossetian side asked Saakashvili to take his soldiers back to there moms. No reply. He does not need them anymore. So, the soldiers were finally buried by the Ossetians.

Im sure all your mass media is talking now how great victory russian army had in Tskinvali few days ago..
Yes you really did it...but only after you started air attack..before that our army destroyed many of peacekeepers...its fact..(even some russian soldiers today and yesterday, were shouting to georgian media "pachemu miratvorcev ubili v Tskinvali..tam staialatisicha i tisicha"..they are angry, because loses among russian troops were huge..your official would not say this of course..

I'm glad you confirm the fact that Russian peacekeepers were intentionally killed by Georgian troops. And yes, there was complete silence for several hours before the Georgian assault. This is confirmed by all sources, including anti-Kremlin ones. There was silence, because the Georgians (Yakobashvili came to Tshinvali on August 7 for talks) promised complete cease fire until next day, 1 pm. When talks had to be continued. The Russian army was in Russia at this time, it would come almost in 24 hours after your assault. I'll describe the start of the war in more detail later. About our casualties - there are official lists, there are 64 dead and around 400 wounded. If you repeat your presidents bullshit about some thousands of killed Russians, you'll look funny again. How this can be kept secret in Russia? We have thousands of your friends among journalists, they would bring this to the public immediately, because you can hide figures, but you cannot hide hundreds or thousands of zink coffins, and you cannot hide the boys' mothers. I know you want thousands Russian in a dead condition, but sorry....

I breifly explain what happened there..When we took Tskinvali, our troops decided to leave it, because russia started bobing whole country, not only conflict zone..they left the regions immediately and dissapeared..alsoe dissapeared our military equipment..of course some of them were left on their way, but most of them are in safe place.as well as our army...our army did their job..now its turn for international peacekeepers..and then we will gain control over both regions..

You never took Tshinvali completely, because if you had taken it, there would be no Ossetians alive - that was the purpose of the mission. "Clean Field" - that was the name of the operation, if I'm not mistaken? Scorched Earth is closer. Or you want to say, that after having killed half of the Ossetians (Grads were used for that purpose), you would come the survivors, ask them if they want to be with Georgia and they would gladly say YES?

Of course, we used aviation, like the Georgians. The sky above Tshinvali was all yours before our guys came. This story about "our Army decided to play hide-and-seek" with the Russians. It is true. They got hidden so well, that even Supreme Commander In Chief of the Georgian ARmed Forces could not find it. It's not my fantasy. I saw it on CNN. The CNN talking head was asking Saakashvili - where is his Army, he angrily replied - I dunno, I dunno nothing. Then somebody saw tanks approaching Tbilisi - Russians, Russians! But that was part of your Army, that got lost :-) You definitely cannot call that running of Georgian Army a retreat, a maneuver. That, according to CNN again (!) I heard this with my own ears, was a stampede, panic flight, the morals being very low. The military were the first to run, then police and city authorities - next. The running military were shouting to civilians to get away too. I wonder - what is Georgian Army paid for? Isn't it their duty to die for the mortherland while fighting the aggressor? Defenfders :-)

P.S. the thing, that you feel like this about our president, makes me think, that he is the right man for our country...every time russian official or whoever say something against hi, he is becoming more and more popular...

That is what I said. No matter what Saakashvili does, he's against Russia - that means he's our man! He he. I hope very much, that Medvedev really won't ever talk to Saakashvili or shake his hand. If he does, I'll be very upset. That means no normalisation is possible between Russia and Georgia. That means tension. Which nobody wants, including US and Europe. Normal people resign after such fiascos, people of honor shoot themselves. But it's not about your president. I think, the US and Saakashvili itself will insist at his staying in power, though it is another trap for Georgia, but he does not seem to care much about it.

1. There was no chaos at all before russian invasion in caucasus..You should know history better, my friend..
Baout georgian products..It seems to be that you just dont know..Tea, Wine, Mineral water, Fruit, Honey, Copper, Steel, etc. You'd better ask someone who knows about it..my advice..

2. About Georgian economy..well again you have no idea about some economical processes in georgia in recent years..anout investments, enterpreneurship etc..juts read reports from IMF, World Bank, see rankings from several global auditors, and then we can spek..another my advice..

3. How can it be kept secret? You are probably joking...To keep secret when whole media is controlled is very easy..remember, you still do not know the truth about nord ost, beslan, even so called "terracts in moscow"...Now tell me, cant secret be kept? uper

4. about our army..forst of all..i havent heard our president saying so..if he had said, well its normal, because information like this must not be told in live..its a simple rule..
Yes there was panic when our troops pulled back, because people did not know whose army was that...
Haha..well you should understand that nobody thinks that georgia, such a small country can beat Russia in a full scale war..our mission was to destroy sepaatists criminal gangs in Ossetia and we did it..but russia as always is inadequate in actions, and started full scale was agains georgia, bombing not only military infrastructure, but residential block, ports, civil airports, houses, scholls and hospitals..russian way of war..
So, after this abnormal steps from russia, goal was to involve in confclit international society..they are imvovlved..soon russian so calle peacekeepers will be changed by international peacekeeprs, and georgian two breakaway regions will come back..
Rusian soldier tried to provoce some local wars during these last days..but our army and military equioment (not all, but most of them of course) is far from them..in the places where they should be now..when russians get out from the country they will be returned to military bases..
Police and city authorities? give facts please..otherwise i will think that you try to fabricate something..(normal for russian of course)

5. about refugees..answer one question: when there is held referendum in russia for example, you ask about thei opinion to all citizens of russia, who lives in russia or just ethnic russians? If you choose second it means that you are nothing more that modern fashists..
If abkhazia wants to held referendum, in this referendum, all the people who lived there must take part..this result will be legal...Of course you dont want to ask about anything to the people wha are refuuges from Abkhazia..these are 80 procent of abkhazian population who do not want to live with russia fo course..historical abkhazian people...(not bagaphs and other separatists)...
Again some chapters from history...will be helpful for you...

6. yes..in georgia from this time, that politician will be president, who will be anti russian, and pro west...
People never will choose pro russian government any more..we had made such mistakes several times, we had trusted russia for several times...
So be calm, take care, and think about your next new president, old Putin..

[SiD]

Yah we in Russia do not know true, it is hidden in the box and box has 99 locks and hanged on the highest tree :lol: . Of course we do not know how Saakashvili downed hundred planes shoting lightning from his ass and how he crushed tousand tanks with his eybrow.

[IamGEORGIA]

Yah we in Russia do not know true, it is hidden in the box and box has 99 locks and hanged on the highest tree :lol: . Of course we do not know how Saakashvili downed hundred planes shoting lightning from his ass and how he crushed tousand tanks with his eybrow.

wow what sense of humor :lol:
was it joke?

[SiD]

wow what sense of humor :lol:
was it joke?

No that was naked georgian truth.