Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia?

[independent]

Maybe. But writing is connected to speaking, and subconscious is sub-conscious. Consciousness is like turning on the light to the darkness of the sub-conscious. I do use the enlarged meaning for "thinking" because I can solve very technical tasks without thinking of them consciously. It means "brains" work while I take a rest. If it is not "thinking", then what?

I myself call that un-mindful thinking - but it still takes place in superego. Kind of moving an active process
to an un-observed sub level in brains

[Yalta1945]

IMaybe. But writing is connected to speaking, and subconscious is sub-conscious. Consciousness is like turning on the light to the darkness of the sub-conscious. I do use the enlarged meaning for "thinking" because I can solve very technical tasks without thinking of them consciously. It means "brains" work while I take a rest. If it is not "thinking", then what?

Just for you i will open you great secret. I think in Russian lenquege. But i should write in english dont i? I dont claim that i am good in english so there could be mistakes. Do you need to be genius to understand such simple thing?

O.K. I'm not genius.
To “be independent” for Russian sounds quite like “not to hang on” (ne-zaviset) , so it is close to the English etymology as “hang on” means smth like “cling to (one’s mother)”. But Russia is the country that inspires seeing another meaning of hanging. One of the badly well-known figures of Tsarist Russia in Poland and Lithuania is Muravyov the Hangman.
So many years have past, and still it is an actual question for us: "to hang together or hang separately”?

[SiD]

O.K. I'm not genius.
To “be independent” for Russian sounds quite like “not to hang on” (ne-zaviset) , so it is close to the English etymology as “hang on” means smth like “cling to (one’s mother)”. But Russia is the country that inspires seeing another meaning of hanging. One of the badly well-known figures of Tsarist Russia in Poland and Lithuania is Muravyov the Hangman.
So many years have past, and still it is an actual question for us: "to hang together or hang separately”?

No. In Russian like in English it is " not to depend". Becouse zaviset'= to depend.

[russian999]

So, Russian forces leaving buffer sones. EU inspectors replacing them. Let us see, what kind of forms will take anti-russian hysteria.

[Yalta1945]

O.K. I'm not genius.
To “be independent” for Russian sounds quite like “not to hang on” (ne-zaviset) , so it is close to the English etymology as “hang on” means smth like “cling to (one’s mother)”. But Russia is the country that inspires seeing another meaning of hanging. One of the badly well-known figures of Tsarist Russia in Poland and Lithuania is Muravyov the Hangman.
So many years have past, and still it is an actual question for us: "to hang together or hang separately”?

No. In Russian like in English it is " not to depend". Becouse zaviset'= to depend.

Za-viset. "Za" is just a prefix. "Viset" means "to hang". "Po'vesit(y) na su'ku:":= "to hang on the branch".
"Kompyuter za'vis" := A computer hung on. Po-vesit, za-vesit, ob-vesit, na-vesit...

[Yalta1945]

So, Russian forces leaving buffer sones. EU inspectors replacing them. Let us see, what kind of forms will take anti-russian hysteria.

Please explain who or what gave them the right to create buffer zones. Don't call it hysteria - just explain in terms of law.

[russian999]

just explain in terms of law.

Are you kidding? I talk about law - do not kill peacekeepers, even they belong to country, wich support separatists.

[Yalta1945]

just explain in terms of law.

Are you kidding? I talk about law - do not kill peacekeepers, even they belong to country, wich support separatists.

I think I understand your interpretation of some events but you didn't answer about the buffer zones. My enquiry was just about them.

[Yalta1945]

For those who can read Russian:
В. Кикабидзе: нет такого народа, который хочет воевать (V.Kikabidze: no nation wants a war)
October 2, <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://ru.delfi.lt/archive/article.php?id=18738069&categoryID=15202021&ndate=1222894800">http://ru.delfi.lt/archive/article.php? ... 1222894800</a><!-- m -->
An excerpt:
‘When my director came from Moscow, it turned out that he had not seen 90% of videos. They are not shown in Moscow. I was not surprised by what happened, because two months before it military exercises had already taken place. There were a lot of tanks around. We all knew that they already stayed there on the 7 of August. Every morning our politicians would by all channels announce about their will to meet and talk, and reach an agreement with Abkhazians, but villages near borders would get bombed as soon as it got dark.
Everything was getting ever closer to the response from here. It was provocative shooting.’

Well, I remember before the Olympic Games in Beijing Russia and Georgia accused each other of making preparations to war. Civilians being evacuated from Tskhinvali was also announced before August 8. Did you hear the same news or not?

Back to the question who started what. When did the war start? Was it peace before it? Was it so that the conflict in which arms had been used for some time escalated then into the severer conflict that was called the war? If so, then what does mark the line between the pre-war conflict and the war itself? Wasn’t it so that provocative shootings on the civilian population were tolerated and what preemptive measures could have been taken by the international community in the conflict which involved a permanent member of the UN Security Council?

[zzura]

Who sad that Georgian’s kill the peacekeepers? Only Russians but not OSEC observers which was there too
In the list of people who die in Tskhinvali, as they say “When Georgian troops was bombing city” they pot people which die 4, 5,7 or 8 years ego, and Russians plus to these list their soldiers too, to end I sink there are no questions why they are doing this. And 95% in this list are such kind
How we can believe Russians end Ossetian’s after this fact?

[SiD]

Who sad that Georgian’s kill the peacekeepers? Only Russians but not OSEC observers which was there too
In the list of people who die in Tskhinvali, as they say “When Georgian troops was bombing city” they pot people which die 4, 5,7 or 8 years ego, and Russians plus to these list their soldiers too, to end I sink there are no questions why they are doing this. And 95% in this list are such kind
How we can believe Russians end Ossetian’s after this fact?

Parhaps if georgians could agree at least with one of thier speculations about this war we could take it serius.
Your denial of everything is just amazing. Parhaps you will question if S Osetians realy exist? Parhaps you will call this people russian deception? I wont be surprised.

Well, I remember before the Olympic Games in Beijing Russia and Georgia accused each other of making preparations to war. Civilians being evacuated from Tskhinvali was also announced before August 8. Did you hear the same news or not?

Back to the question who started what. When did the war start? Was it peace before it? Was it so that the conflict in which arms had been used for some time escalated then into the severer conflict that was called the war? If so, then what does mark the line between the pre-war conflict and the war itself? Wasn’t it so that provocative shootings on the civilian population were tolerated and what preemptive measures could have been taken by the international community in the conflict which involved a permanent member of the UN Security Council?

Shooting was quite common in conflict zone before, yes. But it wasnt war for sure. Wenn artilery, tanks and troops are used to take over territory that is war.
And if you check you can find out that Russia always warned international community about georgian preporations and we suggested to sign official treaty about non use of force.
And wenn georgian attack began Russia called emergency meeting of UN security council, but georgia was backed, guess by whom? So if intarnational community is unable to stop agression we did it ourselves.

[Yalta1945]

Wenn artilery, tanks and troops are used to take over territory that is war.

If some state just bombed - maybe, even with nukes - another state without attempting to seize any territory - you wouldn't call it a war?! hock:

And if you check you can find out that Russia always warned international community about georgian preporations and we suggested to sign official treaty about non use of force. .

August 6 - South Ossetia and Georgia didn't agree on the format of talks.However it is interesting that both sides claim they wanted to sign an agreement and establish peace but the other side was preparing for war. Maybe, instead of looking for the side who tells us truth we should look for the side who lies less?
BTW, why did Russian decline that they dropped bombs just nearby Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline? We clearly saw what kind of holes were left on the ground, thanks to TV. Who did it? Moles? 8-)

And wenn georgian attack began Russia called emergency meeting of UN security council, but georgia was backed, guess by whom? So if intarnational community is unable to stop agression we did it ourselves.

I suppose international community said Russia overreacted. And remember what Alexander Stubb said in Moscow: neither Georgian, nor Russian violence was not supported.
There is also another thing that constantly surprises me in your comments - you did not seem to take into account that South Ossetia and Abkhazia are not parts of Russia and that Russia had to respect its neighbour's sovereignty; nor you take into account that others might not share your view on the facts, therefore they derive at quite different conclusions.

[SiD]

If some state just bombed - maybe, even with nukes - another state without attempting to seize any territory - you wouldn't call it a war?!

Yeah but if some russian gang will start shooting in Berlin for example it wont be war between Russia and Germany.

August 6 - South Ossetia and Georgia didn't agree on the format of talks.However it is interesting that both sides claim they wanted to sign an agreement and establish peace but the other side was preparing for war. Maybe, instead of looking for the side who tells us truth we should look for the side who lies less?
BTW, why did Russian decline that they dropped bombs just nearby Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline? We clearly saw what kind of holes were left on the ground, thanks to TV. Who did it? Moles?

Saakashvili didnt knew were his forces are, (remember it from his interviews) not to mention what are they doing. So i can blame georgian army for everything too and my guess will be as good as yours.

I suppose international community said Russia overreacted. And remember what Alexander Stubb said in Moscow: neither Georgian, nor Russian violence was not supported.
There is also another thing that constantly surprises me in your comments - you did not seem to take into account that South Ossetia and Abkhazia are not parts of Russia and that Russia had to respect its neighbour's sovereignty; nor you take into account that others might not share your view on the facts, therefore they derive at quite different conclusions.

they said that Russia overreacted in night wenn all began? They doesnt knew what is happening, not to mention that our troops arrived only next day. Vilance wasnt supported? Nothing was done about it and that is silent support.
You should take into occount our citizens in S Osetia. They faced agression and there was no secret that Russia cant stay away. Parhaps you have just woke up?

[Yalta1945]

Saakashvili didnt knew were his forces are (remember it from his interviews)

:quoi what was it?
Anyway, he has a lot of problems. "Georgia's Saakashvili: freedom fighter or rights abuser?" <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.mcclatchydc.com/world/story/53444.html">http://www.mcclatchydc.com/world/story/53444.html</a><!-- m -->

So i can blame georgian army for everything too and my guess will be as good as yours.

1. I do not bet. 2. I do not blame anybody for everything.
Or U wanna say it was just a mess?

Generally, have you seen this:
William Dunbar, a reporter for Russia Today TV in Georgia, resigned in protest of alleged bias in the Russian media. He claimed he had not been on air since he mentioned Russian bombing of targets inside Georgia. He told The Moscow Times: "The real news, the real facts of the matter, didn't conform to what they were trying to report, and therefore, they wouldn't let me report it. I felt that I had no choice but to resign." <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation_campaign_during_the_2008_South_Ossetian_war">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinforma ... setian_war</a><!-- m -->
"Disinformation campaign during the 2008 South Ossetian war"
Or a phrase like "The events during August 7 remain a matter of debates and controversy."?
In view of it, we could abstain from harsh judgements on some moments or agree to disagree on them.

You should take into occount our citizens in S Osetia. They faced agression and there was no secret that Russia cant stay away.

Good point 8-) Instead of staying on their neutral peace-keeping mission, they were busy with "Russian passportization" of South Ossetia.

[SiD]

what was it?
Anyway, he has a lot of problems. "Georgia's Saakashvili: freedom fighter or rights abuser?" <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.mcclatchydc.com/world/story/53444.html">http://www.mcclatchydc.com/world/story/53444.html</a><!-- m -->

Yeah and one of his problems is invisible russian planes or snipers or wenever that he sees in the sky.

Generally, have you seen this:
William Dunbar, a reporter for Russia Today TV in Georgia, resigned in protest of alleged bias in the Russian media. He claimed he had not been on air since he mentioned Russian bombing of targets inside Georgia. He told The Moscow Times: "The real news, the real facts of the matter, didn't conform to what they were trying to report, and therefore, they wouldn't let me report it. I felt that I had no choice but to resign." <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinforma">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinforma</a><!-- m --> ... setian_war
"Disinformation campaign during the 2008 South Ossetian war"
Or a phrase like "The events during August 7 remain a matter of debates and controversy."?
In view of it, we could abstain from harsh judgements on some moments or agree to disagree on them.

Generaly i seen one interesting program with osetian girl. So what?

Good point Instead of staying on their neutral peace-keeping mission, they were busy with "Russian passportization" of South Ossetia.

And what is good in passport? You will take any passport if you will be offered to take one? People of S Osetia was abandoned by georgia while Russia always helped them, so if some of them wants to have russian citizenship it is thier choice.

[zzura]

First of all I want to say that attack on Georgian troops Russian occupants start from that bases where “Peas cappers” was. So we can say that they was not “Peas cappers” they was simply aggressors as other Russian solders. And do not say that Georgian troops attack “Peas cappers”. It is Russian KGB” s propaganda
And about passportisation
Every normal country, if there is some problems in other countries this country gives recommendation to his citizens live this country, but not start occupation as Russia. So Russia can tack his citizens and go out from Georgia’s territory.
But it is clear that Russia need this pasportisation to start aggression in Georgia

[Yalta1945]

Generaly i seen one interesting program with osetian girl. So what?

I'm sure everyone in Russia saw it many times. Distracting people’s attention to what may have happened on one of the private channels in the USA spared Russian TV channels from probably speculating on Georgian mutant moles digging holes near the pipeline (as they couldn’t guess whose planes bombed there) or some UFO bombing Gori.

Good point Instead of staying on their neutral peace-keeping mission, they were busy with "Russian passportization" of South Ossetia.

And what is good in passport? You will take any passport if you will be offered to take one? People of S Osetia was abandoned by georgia while Russia always helped them, so if some of them wants to have russian citizenship it is thier choice.

You're as :ange as always. As in 1939, 1956, 1968, 1979, 1991. Just a helpful hand with Russian passport. 8-) All this peace-keeping mission seems to be a total bluff. What took place in reality was organizing, sponsoring and protecting separatists holding Russian citizenship.
It was really astonishing for me to read an article of Y.Afanasyev written in 1994 on the new Russian imperialism. If one cut off just a small part with specific details, it would look quite like printed recently:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.bu.edu/iscip/vol4/Afanasyev.html">http://www.bu.edu/iscip/vol4/Afanasyev.html</a><!-- m -->
('Sometimes the direct involvement of Russian troops is camouflaged and presented to the world as a "peacekeeping mission" in an area where interethnic conflicts have arisen.")

[SiD]

First of all I want to say that attack on Georgian troops Russian occupants start from that bases where “Peas cappers” was. So we can say that they was not “Peas cappers” they was simply aggressors as other Russian solders. And do not say that Georgian troops attack “Peas cappers”. It is Russian KGB” s propaganda
And about passportisation
Every normal country, if there is some problems in other countries this country gives recommendation to his citizens live this country, but not start occupation as Russia. So Russia can tack his citizens and go out from Georgia’s territory.
But it is clear that Russia need this pasportisation to start aggression in Georgia

Parhaps you want at least to agree with georgian beloved free mass media? Even they agree that russian forces counterattacked after georgian attack on Tskchinvali. What is desputed is if it was overreaction.

Well if georgians like NATO, US and EU so much why dont they pack and go to them? MacCain sayd they are all georgians than go to them. Will you? S Osetians want to stay for same reason and it is not related to passports.

[SiD]

I'm sure everyone in Russia saw it many times. Distracting people’s attention to what may have happened on one of the private channels in the USA spared Russian TV channels from probably speculating on Georgian mutant moles digging holes near the pipeline (as they couldn’t guess whose planes bombed there) or some UFO bombing Gori.

And why pipeline is not demaged than? You know orders must be completed if it was ordered to distrupt pipeline than "mutant moles" would compliete thier work. Not just dig some holes. No one even cared wenn georgians attempted to destroy Tskchinvali, but demage in Gori is subject of any georgia supporter concern.

You're as as always. As in 1939, 1956, 1968, 1979, 1991. Just a helpful hand with Russian passport. All this peace-keeping mission seems to be a total bluff. What took place in reality was organizing, sponsoring and protecting separatists holding Russian citizenship.
It was really astonishing for me to read an article of Y.Afanasyev written in 1994 on the new Russian imperialism. If one cut off just a small part with specific details, it would look quite like printed recently:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.bu.edu/iscip/vol4/Afanasyev.html">http://www.bu.edu/iscip/vol4/Afanasyev.html</a><!-- m -->
('Sometimes the direct involvement of Russian troops is camouflaged and presented to the world as a "peacekeeping mission" in an area where interethnic conflicts have arisen.")

Yeah you havent seen what is in reality Kosovo but you see alright what is S Osetian conflict. You see wenn SO was disambled in haste it left A LOT of problems that are problems still. And one can predict that Russia would be involved.

[Yalta1945]

I'm sure everyone in Russia saw it many times. Distracting people’s attention to what may have happened on one of the private channels in the USA spared Russian TV channels from probably speculating on Georgian mutant moles digging holes near the pipeline (as they couldn’t guess whose planes bombed there) or some UFO bombing Gori.

And why pipeline is not demaged than?

Who knows. Mistakes happen. It's also possible destruction was not the aim yet.

No one even cared wenn georgians attempted to destroy Tskchinvali

Not true. Why do you think no one cared?

Yeah you havent seen what is in reality Kosovo but you see alright what is S Osetian conflict. You see wenn SO was disambled in haste it left A LOT of problems that are problems still. And one can predict that Russia would be involved.

Tell us exactly what link you see between situation on the ground in Kosovo and S.Ossetia.
Russia's involvment could have been different, if Russia had wished.
You would not be happy if some country started sponsoring all separatist rebellions in Russia, issuing them passports and then saying you have no moral right to keep Russian territories because you abandoned population of those territories.

[SiD]

Who knows. Mistakes happen. It's also possible destruction was not the aim yet.

Mistakes happen, yes but if it was ordered than pipeline would be distrupted no matter how many times planes must fly. i dont think that our planes drop bombs anywere they want just for fun.

Not true. Why do you think no one cared?

Becouse it has less attention than Gori. Our soldiers deep in georgian territory are greater concern for western media than demage to Skchinvali.

Tell us exactly what link you see between situation on the ground in Kosovo and S.Ossetia.
Russia's involvment could have been different, if Russia had wished.
You would not be happy if some country started sponsoring all separatist rebellions in Russia, issuing them passports and then saying you have no moral right to keep Russian territories because you abandoned population of those territories.

Well Kosovo is independent now isnt it? Was it in agenda in the first place? or it just wasnt officialy declared?
Anyway NATO conviniently forgot about independance of Serbia and its territoryal integrity. Bad example spreads quickly as you see.

Well you should not forget that to become independent strong military support was needed. No country can use its army against Russia. Besides do not forget about Chechnya, we faced not only sepparatists but terrorists too and they had foreign support. But anyway international community must now set rules that will be not just written but obbeyed. If they dont that it will be rules of jungle like now.

[Yalta1945]

Becouse it has less attention than Gori.

For me it was clear why. It was so not only because Gori used to be outside of any conflict zone (SO or Abkhazia) but also because Western journalists could not access Tskhinvali as easy as Gori. The safety was a concern but it was not absolutely decisive. As we know, neither S.Ossetia nor Gori was a safe place. Serious journalists often risk their lives. It is not braveness but their high sense of duty. (I know it.) So it was different accessibility behind the difference on TV screens in the West. Whether the Western journalists could borrow materials filmed by Russians – it’s rather a technical question, I think. I’m not able to answer it. What they could not borrow, it was that view on the events presented by Russian TV channels.

Our soldiers deep in georgian territory are greater concern for western media than demage to Skchinvali.

Too deep, indeed.

Tell us exactly what link you see between situation on the ground in Kosovo and S.Ossetia.

Well Kosovo is independent now isnt it? Was it in agenda in the first place? or it just wasnt officialy declared?
Anyway NATO conviniently forgot about independance of Serbia and its territoryal integrity. Bad example spreads quickly as you see.

You could find a lot of cases in the history when something occurred, yet it had not been planned. Actually, it happens every day. People are not gods or “the future’s not ours to see”. Don’t blame NATO who wanted to stop carnage. Kosovo is not a bad example but the special case.

Russia's involvment could have been different, if Russia had wished.

Well you should not forget that to become independent strong military support was needed.

Whose independence you are talking about? Abkhazian and South Ossetian? :quoi (It looks somewhat unclear what you wrote of. It looks, however, more like you declare Russia had to secretely support separatists so that they set up new states on the Georgian territory.)

You would not be happy if some country started sponsoring all separatist rebellions in Russia, issuing them passports and then saying you have no moral right to keep Russian territories because you abandoned population of those territories.

No country can use its army against Russia. Besides do not forget about Chechnya, we faced not only sepparatists but terrorists too and they had foreign support. But anyway international community must now set rules that will be not just written but obbeyed. If they dont that it will be rules of jungle like now.

Stop it! First, Chechnya is to be the source of shame not pride for Russia. Second, NATO’s not going to invade Russia. Everyone knows Iraq is Iraq, but Russia is Russia, and so on. Haven’t you noticed a big interest of the West in doing business with Russia? It’s not so that no country can use its army against Russia, as you wrote – it can be used if Russia forces it to be used – BUT this is not the reality we have! If Russia does not attack NATO, then enormous part of people must turn into mad cows before it can come real.

[zzura]

[quote="SiD that russian forces counterattacked after georgian attack on Tskchinvali.
OU OU OU
You make big, very big mistake
Georgian troops were not shooting in that side where pees cappers base was. They was sinking that as they are peas cappers there are no danger from that base, and suddenly occupants stars attack from that base

[SiD]

You could find a lot of cases in the history when something occurred, yet it had not been planned. Actually, it happens every day. People are not gods or “the future’s not ours to see”. Don’t blame NATO who wanted to stop carnage. Kosovo is not a bad example but the special case.

Future is not ours to see but ours to create. Our kind (mankind) has reason you see and can plan its actions and sometimes predickt what can happen. besides you may say special cases spreads quickly i dont care how you call that.

Whose independence you are talking about? Abkhazian and South Ossetian? (It looks somewhat unclear what you wrote of. It looks, however, more like you declare Russia had to secretely support separatists so that they set up new states on the Georgian territory.)

Kosovo, Abkchazia, South Osetia they needed foreign support (and military support too) to become recognized independent states. I doubt many can gain independence without fight.

Stop it! First, Chechnya is to be the source of shame not pride for Russia. Second, NATO’s not going to invade Russia. Everyone knows Iraq is Iraq, but Russia is Russia, and so on. Haven’t you noticed a big interest of the West in doing business with Russia? It’s not so that no country can use its army against Russia, as you wrote – it can be used if Russia forces it to be used – BUT this is not the reality we have! If Russia does not attack NATO, then enormous part of people must turn into mad cows before it can come real.

Chechnya is our tragedy you see, but also expirience. So if you think we havent strugled for integrity you are wrong. no one just could take advantage of situation becouse as you said Russia is Russia not Iraq. If Russia wasnt nuclear state NATO could deside to "stop carnage".

[SiD]

OU OU OU
You make big, very big mistake
Georgian troops were not shooting in that side where pees cappers base was. They was sinking that as they are peas cappers there are no danger from that base, and suddenly occupants stars attack from that base

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7571096.stm">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7571096.stm</a><!-- m --> and <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7549736.stm">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7549736.stm</a><!-- m --> (examples)

Mark me were is it any information about "occupants" comming from peace keepers base.