Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia?

[russian999]

OU OU OU
You make big, very big mistake
Georgian troops were not shooting in that side where pees cappers base was. They was sinking that as they are peas cappers there are no danger from that base, and suddenly occupants stars attack from that base

Guys, I am wondering - how old are you? Maybe you are 25, or 30? If it is a case - just tell me - have you been supportive of gamsahurdia and jaba ioseliany? If it is so - than how you can talk about bad attitude from russia? Oure attitude toward nation, wich maded criminal lord (vor v sakone) they own military minister supposed to be a negative. You allways reffer to communist past of Russia as a condition of distrast toward Kremlin. But how Russia will trust to georgian criminal past? Even Bush administration, wich is extremly unpopular now in USA, do not trust georgia so much. But Russia behave to Georgia according to you criminal past. I dont belive, that mentality of nation changing quckly. In close past criminal lords was extremly popular in Georgia. How about now?

[Yalta1945]

I dont belive, that mentality of nation changing quckly

Well, well... Let's see the one to always talk in accordace to his/her own premises (I mean how about the mentality of Russian nation who allowed oneself to be ruled by the criminal regime for so many decades [let's just put aside the present regime to make it more convienient for Russians]?)

[independent]

I dont belive, that mentality of nation changing quckly

Well, well... Let's see the one to always talk in accordace to his/her own premises (I mean how about the mentality of Russian nation who allowed oneself to be ruled by the criminal regime for so many decades [let's just put aside the present regime to make it more convienient for Russians]?)

And how about the mentality of Lithuanian, Latvian, Polands, Ukraines and Georgias nations who did
exactly the same ? All those nations were at least as much soviets as Russians were - don't forget it.

I still remember how e.g groups of ordinary Baltic workers made trips to companies in Finland(80's) -
and how positively they spoke about the system of USSR.... Specifically i must bring up missions done
by Lithuanian people - they seemed to be most patriotic and love USSR the most :langue

Back to 80's - if You wanted to hear someone speaking thruthfully about the problems in USSR -
then You had to travel to Russia - everywhere else in USSR people were cowardly claiming that it was
the best system ever...
In Baltic countries - even as an foreigner You had to watch what You spoke - there were so many
dedicated informers among those nations. So for me they always seemed to be the most idealistic
ones in USSR. From there - a lot of people were sent to Siberia - because their neighbours were
so willingly informing authorities when they did something suspicious (or if they simply didn't like
them).

And still today, politicians in Baltic Countries are mostly the same loved ones which were in power there
already when they belong to USSR. So it kind of show how much they did love that period in USSR
and how well it suited with their national character. It is obviously very hard to those nations, when
EU authorities are not so interested to hear "delations" as was KGB - how can they now get ride of
their unwanted neighbours ( e.g. russian minority) ?

[Dmitry]

Some weeks ago somebody wrote me here it was Russia who had started war with Georgia...they told they should use sanctions against Russia...and what their presidents say now??? Which country has used sanctions against Russia - who has torn their trading relations with Russian...stopped to buy gas or oil...manoeuvred their troops in Russia??? Your words were just a idle talk. The only thing you can do now - watch an economic collapse of your boss and write bosh... - nothing )))))))))))))))))

[Yalta1945]

I dont belive, that mentality of nation changing quckly

Well, well... Let's see the one to always talk in accordace to his/her own premises (I mean how about the mentality of Russian nation who allowed oneself to be ruled by the criminal regime for so many decades [let's just put aside the present regime to make it more convienient for Russians]?)

And how about the mentality of Lithuanian, Latvian, Polands, Ukraines and Georgias nations who did
exactly the same ? All those nations were at least as much soviets as Russians were - don't forget it. <blablablablablabla...

If it were somebody else, I would try to answer to it. For you I can only say you should have not had so much of it in Tallinn. Dont drive.

[Yalta1945]

Whose independence you are talking about? Abkhazian and South Ossetian? (It looks somewhat unclear what you wrote of. It looks, however, more like you declare Russia had to secretely support separatists so that they set up new states on the Georgian territory.)

Kosovo, Abkchazia, South Osetia they needed foreign support (and military support too) to become recognized independent states. I doubt many can gain independence without fight.

Good partner Russia is!
• Russia commits itself to respect the territorial integrity of Georgia and Russian forces are allowed to step in as peacekeepers but in reality Russia supports the Abkhazian and South Ossetian separatists who represent only a small part of population in the two regions. The population shrinks and changes dramatically due to ethnic cleansings being committed by these separatists and due to large number of refugees fleeing from the regions out of fear for possible consequences of the armed conflict and violence (before the conflict, the ethnic Abkhaz were a minority — under 20 percent — in Abkhazia).
• Russia vows to act in accordance with its mandate for the peacekeeping mission but it then takes no notice neither of the violation of the agreement on tripartite peacekeeping force (since the very beginning the North Ossetian peacekeeping contingent is staffed by South Ossetians), nor of the fact that their forces just shield separatists and fall short of fulfilling their obligations to the other side (Russian peacekeepers in Abkhazia were specifically mandated to facilitate the return of internally displaced persons and refugees).
• Russia keeps declaring its respect for the territorial integrity of Georgia, but through all the time it sponsors and arms heavily (how much have been spent?) those groups of separatists loyal to the Kremlin in Abkhazia and South Ossetia.
• Russia says it respects the territorial integrity of Georgia while it simultaneously backs separatists of Abkhazia and South Ossetia in their drives to set up illegitimate forms of government and organize illegitimate voting (in 1996 South Ossetian elections mainly ethnic Ossetians — not ethnic Georgians — voted; in 2001, most ethnic Georgians boycotted elections in S. Ossetia; in 2006 a referendum was also largely boycotted by ethnic Georgians in S.Ossetia.)
• Russia assumes the role of impartial peacekeeper but it supports separatists whose leadership in South Ossetia aims at stripping off this part of Georgian territory and handing it over to Russia. In 2002 Eduard Kokoity („president“ of S.Ossetia) asked Moscow to recognize South Ossetia’s independence and absorb it into Russia. Recently, he agreed that it would form part of Russia within “several years” during talks with D.Medvedev in Moscow. Tarzan Kokoity (another official of self-proclaimed state) announced that South Ossetia would be absorbed into Russia soon so that its people could live in “one united Russian state” with their ethnic kin in North Ossetia.
• Russia claims to act as a peacekeeper but then Russian officials and military personnel are seconded to serve in both the governments and the armed forces of the separatist regions. South Ossetia’s “prime minister,” “defense minister,” and “security minister,” for example, are all seconded Russian officials.
• Russia claims to keep peace but then it starts hostile actions against Georgia and Georgians: in the summer of 2006 (when Georgia’s orientation to NATO and the EU becomes clear) several Russian military intelligence officers are caught in Georgia and accused of conducting bombings in Gori. Russia responds by closing Russia’s only road crossing with Georgia, suspending air and mail links, imposing embargoes against Georgian exports and even rounding up people living in Russia (including school children) with ethnic Georgian names and deporting them. At least two Georgians died during the deportation process. In March 2007 there was an aerial assault, combined with artillery fire, on the Georgian Government’s administrative offices in Abkhazia’s Upper Kodori Valley. In August, Russian fighter jets violated Georgian airspace, and then unsuccessfully launched a missile toward a Georgian radar station.
• Then Russia also increases its military presence in Abkhazia without the required consultation with the Government of Georgia. In late April of 2008, Russia sends highly-trained airborne combat troops to Abkhazia, as if a part of its peacekeepers. In May, Russia dispatches construction troops to Abkhazia to repair a railroad link to Russia.
• Russia pretends to keep its peacekeeping mission while it starts handing out Russian passports to citizens of Georgia in South Ossetia, creating an obvious excuse for the later substitution of its peacekeeping mission by the full-scale invasion under the pretext of protecting “Russian citizens”.
• Russia affirms its respect to Georgia’s sovereignty and territorial integrity within its internationally recognized borders by supporting numerous UN Security Council resolutions, including the resolution Russia signed just in April 2008 (USNCR 1808); Russia also holds - in Kosovo case - that serious human rights violations against inhabitants should not cause a transfer of territory, and that territory should not change hands just because of the unlawful use of force;
--- but all of a sudden Russia puts forth the same argument Russia has opposed to so that it would now be applied in Russia’s ill-suited reasoning why the Abkhazian and South Ossetian states created by Russia on the Georgian soil should be recognized.

Who’s talking of double standards? Russia has neither double standards, nor triple standards – just opportunities!
Russia’s enduring pressure and provocations — combined with an inapt Georgian reaction — have led to the current state of Georgia being dismembered.

[SiD]

Good chooser you are. You have given much information without context. You havent mentioned about georgian military growth. How many weapon did they bought, who trained thier military and so on. You have just ignored reasons of our actions and have given them as hostile acts. Or parhaps you cant find any information about actions of georgian side? Better if so, becouse in other case it means you hide it to twist facts.

[Yalta1945]

Good chooser you are. You have given much information without context. You havent mentioned about georgian military growth. How many weapon did they bought, who trained thier military and so on. You have just ignored reasons of our actions and have given them as hostile acts. Or parhaps you cant find any information about actions of georgian side? Better if so, becouse in other case it means you hide it to twist facts.

So, you want to say they should not have their army as most countries do? Or you want to say it's all right to be armed and trained by Russian military personnel only? Where are the facts to reverse those ten points I provided?
I don't think, there is even a single fact to justify Russia's behaviour as described in any of those ten points.
Just some young people or those who used to be less interested in Georgia (self-criticism) concentrated more on the events of August and they didn't see the bigger picture of what has been going there for more than 15 years.

[zzura]

[ In close past criminal lords was extremly popular in Georgia. How about now?[/quote]

Now the criminal lords (Mafiosi) all they are in Russia they can not live in Georgia but they fill themselves very well in Russia. And you make one mistake they was not popular, they was well-known and it was not close past it was far past and as I know (and I know this very well) it is Russia where they have their business, they are in government and so on.
For Russia good Georgia is without Georgians (it includes Abxazia without Abxazians, Tskhinvali region without Georgians end Ossetian’s, because they both are Georgian regions more then 3000 years even old Greeks and Egyptians describe these regions as Georgian regions)
Do you know that Russia is going to migrate in Afxazia 150000 Russians and rebuild for them that houses where Georgians was living ( I know this in sure ) when Abxazians in afxazia they are only 50000-70000. So it is assimilation as I now and now Abxazians see real face of Russia

[SiD]

So, you want to say they should not have their army as most countries do? Or you want to say it's all right to be armed and trained by Russian military personnel only? Where are the facts to reverse those ten points I provided?
I don't think, there is even a single fact to justify Russia's behaviour as described in any of those ten points.
Just some young people or those who used to be less interested in Georgia (self-criticism) concentrated more on the events of August and they didn't see the bigger picture of what has been going there for more than 15 years.

You provided points isolating them from situation.
Your picture is one sided and not objective. It is not disputable it is just obvius.

There is nothing wrong to have army, but if this army is building up and preparing logickal question is: you are preparing for what?
And this question was asked many times, with no effect.
you see if you do not plan to attack but to use diplomacy you wont have problem with signing treaty that will garantee other side safety. If you do not sign that your military preparations looks suspiciusly to say the least.

[Yalta1945]

In close past criminal lords was extremly popular in Georgia. How about now?

Now the criminal lords (Mafiosi) all they are in Russia they can not live in Georgia but they fill themselves very well in Russia.

Some of them are not regarded as Georgians any longer. I read refferences to Anzor Kikalishvili as "Russian businessman". This man used to be on phone line with the Lithuanian presidency when it was occupied by R.Paksas (the impeached Lithuanian president). By the way, I looked on the net and found an interview of Russian NHL player Bure (in 2005) where he explained his ties with Anzor Kikalishvili: "So, I don't think anybody can judge what's wrong in Russia or what's good in Russia. You can't judge, that's the way it is ... If you take whole [Russian] history, like five, 10 centuries ago, today you're President, tomorrow, you're criminal. Day after, you're President again. " :!: :!:

[russian999]

I am just amaized, how naive georgians are! Look at the Ukraine now! Are you learning from others mistakes? Look, how messy and chaotic situation there. It will happening in georgia for sure. We are not ready for democracy yet.

[Yalta1945]

October 1, 2008,
Russia’s Long-Planned Invasion I
The Russian government began preparing for the invasion of Georgia four years ago as part of a more general attack on the West and the West’s democratic, free market, and security ideas in the post-Soviet states, according to Andrei Illarionov, a former Putin adviser and more recently a Kremlin critic.
In a speech delivered to the Cato Institute in Ukraine on Sept. 4 but posted online only this week, Illarionov described what Moscow’s political leaders had said about Georgia over that period and what Russian intelligence services had done against Georgia well before the first of August.
And he described precisely what Russian forces had been doing in the weeks leading up to the outbreak of hostilities and what they did after that time, actions that in both cases show just how false are all Russian claims that Tbilisi started the war and that Moscow intervened to defend its citizens or the right of nations to self-determination.
If one examines this history, Illarionov said, then it becomes clear why Moscow went to war against Georgia and why it is so critical that everyone understand that “the Russian-Georgian war is part of another, very major war that Russia intends to launch as a responsive strike to the West.”
After disposing of Russia’s “propaganda” arguments about its invasion of Georgia – the defense of Russian citizens, the right of nations to self-determination, and the supposed Georgian genocide of Ossetians – Illarionov focused on two things: the reasons Moscow decided to move against Georgia after the “rose” revolution and the specific steps it took.
<...>
In 2006, the Georgian special services arrested several Russian agencies but, Illarionov noted, “Georgia followed diplomatic etiquette and without any noise sent them back to Moscow.” Moscow stepped up its penetration efforts, and in September, Tbilisi announced the arrest of four Russian agents, and Moscow responded with an economic blockade.
Over the same period, Russia “strengthened its military presence in Abkhazia and South Ossetia,” and Russia diplomats told their colleagues quite openly that Moscow would engage in military actions in Georgia before September 2008, statements that many were inclined to dismiss but that proved to be quite true.
And then Illarionov details the specific steps from July through mid-August that show that Russia was planning to move well before Saakashvili transferred his forces into South Ossetia, the action that the Russian government continues to insist was the proximate cause of the war.
Most details he provided about that period have been reported in the Western media, although they, like Illarionov’s speech in Kyiv itself, have not been given much attention in the mainstream Russian media. (On that failure, see the discussion of Illarionov’s remarks at
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.kavkazcenter.com/russ/content/2008/09/30/61325.shtml">http://www.kavkazcenter.com/russ/conten ... 1325.shtml</a><!-- m -->. - in Russian;
„A.Illarionov: Russia prepared and started the war against Georgia“)
But the former Kremlin adviser’s conclusion is if not new at least more clearly articulated than those which have been offered by most others. He pointed out that Russia continues to want a change of leadership in Tbilisi because for the Kremlin, “the western choice of Georgia is unacceptable.”
Consequently, Illarionov said, Moscow’s war against Western influence in the post-Soviet states and hence against the West itself has just begun. From the Kremlin’s perspective, Georgia was the weak link, a place where unlike in the Baltic countries or even Ukraine, it could act.
But because it did not achieve its goal in Georgia, Moscow will continue to push there and elsewhere because Illarionov suggests, the Russian leadership knows that if the Western combination of democracy and free markets succeed in these countries, not only will Russia’s influence there decline but the power of Russia’s current leaders will be at risk as well.
Full text: http://topics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/...mode=print

[Yalta1945]

Russia’s Long-Planned Invasion II
(in supplement to Russia’s Long-Planned Invasion I posted above)
Illarionov Commenter Proves Russia started the Georgia Conflict
http://larussophobe.wordpress.com/2008/0...-conflict/
Interview with a wounded company commander from the 135th motorized rifle regiment, in “Red Star,” [a Russian military newspaper]
“We were doing exercises,” captain Sidristy’s story starts. “This was relatively close to the capital of South Ossetia. Nizhny Zaramakh is a wilderness area in North Ossetia. We made camp there after our scheduled exercises, but on August 7th, the order came to move out towards Tskhinvali. We were raised to a state of alarm, and went on the march. We arrived, settled in, and already on August 8th the fire came down with such force that many even lost their bearings. No, everyone understood that Georgia was preparing something, but it was hard to even imagine what we saw. Immediately after midnight, a massive shelling of the city and peacekeeping positions was started. They hit it from all types of weapons, including artillery rocket systems.”
Analysis [by LiveJournal blogger davnym_davno]:
1.The regiment, which is permanently posted in the township of Prokhladny, close to Nalchik, [Kabardino-Balkar Republic], after finishing its exercises (August 2nd), was stationed to Nizhny Zaramag.
2.Nizhny Zaramag is located several kilometers from the northern entrance of the Roki tunnel, and a border station and customs office is located in this town.
3.On August 7th, the regiment received the order to move out toward Tskhinvali, was raised to a state of alarm, and before the end of the day, managed to arrive to its objective destination.
4.After midnight, the lights of the bombardment of Tskhinvali could be seen from the regiment’s position.
5.The site of the regiment’s position is not specified, but it is evident that the regiment passed through the Roki tunnel. Since:
*There would be no point in raising the regiment to a state of alarm to advance it two kilometers to the entrance of the Roki tunnel. With such a formation, the tail end of the column would still be in Nizhny Zaramag.
*Being located to the north of the Greater Caucasus Mountain Range [which the tunnel crosses], it would impossible to observe the lights of an artillery attack of Tskhinvali.
6.Going on the basis of the words, “we arrived, settled in,” one can draw the conclusion that the column did not as yet spend the night by the side of the road, but unloaded in a place where it was possible to provide the military personnel with food and a night’s rest.
7.Between the Roki tunnel and Tskhinvali, there is only one such place: Java.
Conclusion: the 135th motorized rifle regiment entered the territory of South Ossetia before the start of Georgia’s attack on Tskhinvali.
As is customary to say in such situations, ‘I rest my case, your honor!’
Georgia entered the war after Russia’s incursion onto its territory, in order to avert the threat of the country’s takeover, and forced regime change. In these circumstances, the attack on Tskhinvali was a tactical military objective, aimed at holding the enemy at bay in Java until the rest of the world reacted to what had happened. The Georgian armed forces handled their objective even better that I expected. And you know yourselves what happened afterwards.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://larussophobe.wordpress.com/2008/09/11/illarionov-commenter-proves-russia-started-the-georgia-conflict/">http://larussophobe.wordpress.com/2008/ ... -conflict/</a><!-- m -->
also: Truth against lies September 11, 2008 http://halldor2.wordpress.com/2008/09/11...inst-lies/

More details, analysis, discussion in Russian:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://djdrive.livejournal.com/99584.html">http://djdrive.livejournal.com/99584.html</a><!-- m -->
This has turned to be the last missing point for me to make my possible vote on the question who started the war in S.Ossetia much more easier. Now there's no need to add any special comment on the matter in question. I'll vote!

[Eka]

I am just amaized, how naive georgians are! Look at the Ukraine now! Are you learning from others mistakes? Look, how messy and chaotic situation there. It will happening in georgia for sure. We are not ready for democracy yet.

I am very surprised that you are still here on this forum and topics realted to Georgia. I suppose its time to you and Sid to move to economic forum to discuse there reallity in your countrie.Oil prices is going down and down ( < 70 $) so it will be targedy for middle class in Putleristan soon. Propaganda, that russia is great and strong is Putlers inflamed brains extraction and russians are swallowing this drugs with plasure and joy. Be happy with oil prices, crisis , putler, kokiti and co. .

Soon he will begin to burn houses and kill people in the streets to asure putleristan citizens that everything wrong in putleristan is Georgians fault.Be carefull and take care. Putler is dangerous for russians health.

[SiD]

I am just amaized, how naive georgians are! Look at the Ukraine now! Are you learning from others mistakes? Look, how messy and chaotic situation there. It will happening in georgia for sure. We are not ready for democracy yet.

I am very surprised that you are still here on this forum and topics realted to Georgia. I suppose its time to you and Sid to move to economic forum to discuse there reallity in your countrie.Oil prices is going down and down ( < 70 $) so it will be targedy for middle class in Putleristan soon. Propaganda, that russia is great and strong is Putlers inflamed brains extraction and russians are swallowing this drugs with plasure and joy. Be happy with oil prices, crisis , putler, kokiti and co. .

Soon he will begin to burn houses and kill people in the streets to asure putleristan citizens that everything wrong in putleristan is Georgians fault.Be carefull and take care. Putler is dangerous for russians health.

yeah and end of the world will happen in 2014 . You know that storm was far less dangerous for sailors than compliete calm.

[russian999]

I am very surprised that you are still here on this forum and topics realted to Georgia. I suppose its time to you and Sid to move to economic forum to discuse there reallity in your countrie.Oil prices is going down and down ( < 70 $) so it will be targedy for middle class in Putleristan soon. Propaganda, that russia is great and strong is Putlers inflamed brains extraction and russians are swallowing this drugs with plasure and joy. Be happy with oil prices, crisis , putler, kokiti and co. .

Soon he will begin to burn houses and kill people in the streets to asure putleristan citizens that everything wrong in putleristan is Georgians fault.Be carefull and take care. Putler is dangerous for russians health.

Actually, russians slowly start to forget about Georgia.In reality Russia-Georgia conflict gave to Russia good stimul. President signed up order about fight with corruption, also russian army will go trough cardinal reformation. Also, we just get weight in the world, basically.

[Steven]

How is Russia-Georgian conflict related to corruption? I doubt Medvedev decided to fight corruption after this conflict. Besides, the main thing the money is focused on, in Russia, is the military system

[Eka]

I am very surprised that you are still here on this forum and topics realted to Georgia. I suppose its time to you and Sid to move to economic forum to discuse there reallity in your countrie.Oil prices is going down and down ( < 70 $) so it will be targedy for middle class in Putleristan soon. Propaganda, that russia is great and strong is Putlers inflamed brains extraction and russians are swallowing this drugs with plasure and joy. Be happy with oil prices, crisis , putler, kokiti and co. .

Soon he will begin to burn houses and kill people in the streets to asure putleristan citizens that everything wrong in putleristan is Georgians fault.Be carefull and take care. Putler is dangerous for russians health.

Actually, russians slowly start to forget about Georgia.In reality Russia-Georgia conflict gave to Russia good stimul. President signed up order about fight with corruption, also russian army will go trough cardinal reformation. Also, we just get weight in the world, basically.

Its your opinion that they slowly begin to forget. It dont seem so from here. Good luck to all putleristan sitizens in this "srugggle" against corruption. Its putlers steps to make forget putlerists abour cisis and another things. Coruuption can be wined only with not corrapted leaders ( as in Georgian case). Putler is so corraptes that he never can struugle with coruption. about those small guy that is called president I suppose he can not do nothing but to try look bigger.And reform of your army is a miracale - it will never happen. You need dignity and honesty to create good army. Soldgers with stollen forks and closets can not be part of good army. They will do same, because they will be hungry and angry on own govermant all time. Its rule in Putleristanduring centuries. But you know I will give you free advice - change leader. Choose younge, educated and little bit idealistic person whowill be ehaugh honest to fight with corruption and powerty, than get rid from KGB and FSB agents( I advice to put them to jail imediatly) , then begin really reformatic and painfull process and after some 5-7 years you will be part of int. community and free world.

But I am 100% sure putleristan will not do it. So after some 5-6 years internall pro blems will grew to serios conflict. I dont want this, because you are my neibghor. And when neibghor have problems I will have some problems too.So its better for you to develop as you are developming - in the direction of ruining your country.

[Yalta1945]

How is Russia-Georgian conflict related to corruption? I doubt Medvedev decided to fight corruption after this conflict. Besides, the main thing the money is focused on, in Russia, is the military system

Yeah, just let wolves look after sheeps How can they fight corruption if this is an inherent part of the vertical-power model (“vertical vlasti”) that Putin built, and if favouritism, nepotism, and corruption exists on the very top of the vertical power pyramid? Who is this guy Medvedev who tries to mimic Putin as close as possible?

Vladimir Ryzhkov in December, 2007:

Putin’s loyal cronies — above all, his buddies and former colleagues from the KGB and the St. Petersburg Mayor’s Office — sit at the very top of this bureaucratic power base. Then there are the governors, whose fate now completely rests on the presidential administration. The mayors of leading cities are one step lower on the bureaucratic hierarchy; they have been herded into United Russia on “voluntary-mandatory” conditions. In addition, there are bureaucrats who work in various government jobs who understand all too well that the only way to keep their jobs is to constantly prove their loyalty to the Kremlin. The reward for this loyalty is to reap the benefits of a massive system of corruption, where bureaucrats are allowed to abuse their positions to advance the interests of their personal businesses. Corruption has become an acceptable norm and principal motivation for Putin’s army of bureaucrats. It runs rampant at all levels of government — from executives at government television stations to judges, from FSB generals to police officers. One could say the government has been strengthened and reborn, but it has assumed a grotesque and malignant form where corruption and lawlessness have become more important than civil duty among bureaucrats.

For everybody: Read about Putin and Gunvor to learn how business is done in Russia today.

On the offensive: How Gunvor rose to the top of Russian oil trading
Published: May 14 2008; The Financial Times
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c3c5c012-21e9-11dd-a50a-000077b07658.html?nclick_check=1">http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c3c5c012-21e9 ... ck_check=1</a><!-- m -->
Russia's Mysterious, Faceless New Oil Plutocrat
Posted on June 11, 2008; it cites the article in "The Wall Street Journal" Secretive Associate of Putin Emerges As Czar of Russian Oil Trading
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.robertamsterdam.com/2008/06/russias_mysterious_faceless_ne.htm">http://www.robertamsterdam.com/2008/06/ ... ess_ne.htm</a><!-- m -->
EXCLUSIVE-Secretive Russian Gunvor becomes number 3 oil trader
October 31, 2007; Reuters
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://uk.reuters.com/article/oilRpt/idUKL3180443520071031">http://uk.reuters.com/article/oilRpt/id ... 3520071031</a><!-- m -->

... get rid from KGB and FSB agents( I advice to put them to jail imediatly) , then begin really reformatic and painfull process and after some 5-7 years you will be part of int. community and free world.

Unfortunately, Europe has its own communists and corrupt politics, politicians.
Sometimes a good intention of protecting human rights produces court decisions favouring criminals and various rascals. Imagine, there were cases when they get "compensations" which were bigger than their victims could get, and they were demanding the standards of living in prison that were above the level that ordinary people in their country could be guaranteed. Tragicomically enough, I think, former KGB agents in the EU are better protected than they would be in Russia under its own democratic government led by some young idealistic leader.

[SiD]

Its your opinion that they slowly begin to forget. It dont seem so from here. Good luck to all putleristan sitizens in this "srugggle" against corruption. Its putlers steps to make forget putlerists abour cisis and another things. Coruuption can be wined only with not corrapted leaders ( as in Georgian case). Putler is so corraptes that he never can struugle with coruption. about those small guy that is called president I suppose he can not do nothing but to try look bigger.And reform of your army is a miracale - it will never happen. You need dignity and honesty to create good army. Soldgers with stollen forks and closets can not be part of good army. They will do same, because they will be hungry and angry on own govermant all time. Its rule in Putleristanduring centuries. But you know I will give you free advice - change leader. Choose younge, educated and little bit idealistic person whowill be ehaugh honest to fight with corruption and powerty, than get rid from KGB and FSB agents( I advice to put them to jail imediatly) , then begin really reformatic and painfull process and after some 5-7 years you will be part of int. community and free world.

But I am 100% sure putleristan will not do it. So after some 5-6 years internall pro blems will grew to serios conflict. I dont want this, because you are my neibghor. And when neibghor have problems I will have some problems too.So its better for you to develop as you are developming - in the direction of ruining your country.

Parhaps your words are true for Putleristan, were is it by the way? parhaps somewhere in georgia? they definatly are in need of russian passports .
If serius corruption is problem for Russia for centuries, so it is not so easy to get rid of it.
About army. good army is victorius army. Army that CAN defend its motherland and citizens.
It is choice of russian people who would be thier leaders. And no one needs reformatic and painfull processess to become part of int community and free world. You know some started this so called reformatic and painfull process in 90s , it resulted that now right parties cant even have support of at least 5% of population. One must learn from mistakes not repeat it.
I wont comment your predictions. As i said end of the world will be soon according to some .

[russian999]

But you know I will give you free advice - change leader. Choose younge, educated and little bit idealistic person whowill be ehaugh honest to fight with corruption and powerty, than get rid from KGB and FSB agents( I advice to put them to jail imediatly)

Thanks for your advise. I want to pay respect to you by giving my own advise.Open your mind and get rid of bias. Dont you see crisis in the world? Where its came from? Right, from USA. Why this things happen? Because government gave too much freedom to banks and they went greedy. So, Russia is hurting surrounding country by brutality. But USA is hurting whole world by uncontrolled greedeness. So, when small country choose there way of living, they should be smart and dont repeat mistakes of USA and Russia. But seems like "younge, educated and little bit idealistic person" saakashvily choose not to do russians mistakes, but absolutly repeat all USA mistakes. It is disadvantage of younge leaders - they dont have wisdom.
But wisdom is - learn from Putin, how to maintain order and how to make proficit budget, and learn from USA how to give to people stimulation for doing business. But you, guys, want just freedom without any obligations. Its does not work in this world.

[Faw_Peter]

Very smart words, Russian999. I had the same thoughts, but just couldn't expose them logically.
I also think that when Georgians say "democratic", they want a total freedom inside their country. But, total freedom means disaster and lack of control. This is as essential as when we talk about Georgia, which is an ex-USSR state and which knows very little about using the freedom correctly.

[gomboreli]

The other day I was hiking in high mountains and found a village in a narrow gorge entirely populated by Ossetians. A simple encounter with local residents prove that they are very ordinary people who don't make any troubles and who don't get oppressed anyhow. Ossetians are dispersed all across Eastern Georgia from Borjomi up to the Pankisi gorge, where the majority are Chechens, and all talk about ethnic hatred is a deliberate lie.
South Ossetia is not a geographic or historic name, but a purely political one. It emerged as an autonomous entity in 1922 only in the heart of Georgia after II Russian armed invasion a year earlier. Its creation was as illogical as would be Northern Armenia, N-W Azerbaijan or South Chechnya on lands inhabited by these ethnic minorities. But such was the Soviet national policy which brought disasters to some other republics as well. According to the Soviet 1922 survey, Ossetians represented 11% of the population in Tskhinvali and yet this city was made a centre of the autonomy. The names of the city meaning a land of hornbeam and almost all other villages - except for some Communist ones - are still Georgian and all efforts by Sandinistas and Putinistas portraying this area as historically and legally separate are just foolish.
The 3rd Russian invasion in August 08 can be compared with some events in the past. From the near past it most vividly resembles on German conquest of Austria and the Sudet area of Czechoslovakia with combined elements - armed aggression justified by the referendum results and the need of protecting oppressed national minorities.
So regardless of whether the Tskhinvali area is called as Republic of South Ossetia or Kingdom of North Zimbabwe, its military occupation and de facto annexation does not change the fundamental question. Georgia existed without its present capital city and biggest sea resort for four centuries and regained them only when the international situation afforded it. The brutal conquerors have come and gone, and some of their empires have even been erased off the map...

[SiD]

The other day I was hiking in high mountains and found a village in a narrow gorge entirely populated by Ossetians. A simple encounter with local residents prove that they are very ordinary people who don't make any troubles and who don't get oppressed anyhow. Ossetians are dispersed all across Eastern Georgia from Borjomi up to the Pankisi gorge, where the majority are Chechens, and all talk about ethnic hatred is a deliberate lie.
South Ossetia is not a geographic or historic name, but a purely political one. It emerged as an autonomous entity in 1922 only in the heart of Georgia after II Russian armed invasion a year earlier. Its creation was as illogical as would be Northern Armenia, N-W Azerbaijan or South Chechnya on lands inhabited by these ethnic minorities. But such was the Soviet national policy which brought disasters to some other republics as well. According to the Soviet 1922 survey, Ossetians represented 11% of the population in Tskhinvali and yet this city was made a centre of the autonomy. The names of the city meaning a land of hornbeam and almost all other villages - except for some Communist ones - are still Georgian and all efforts by Sandinistas and Putinistas portraying this area as historically and legally separate are just foolish.
The 3rd Russian invasion in August 08 can be compared with some events in the past. From the near past it most vividly resembles on German conquest of Austria and the Sudet area of Czechoslovakia with combined elements - armed aggression justified by the referendum results and the need of protecting oppressed national minorities.
So regardless of whether the Tskhinvali area is called as Republic of South Ossetia or Kingdom of North Zimbabwe, its military occupation and de facto annexation does not change the fundamental question. Georgia existed without its present capital city and biggest sea resort for four centuries and regained them only when the international situation afforded it. The brutal conquerors have come and gone, and some of their empires have even been erased off the map...

i think you just forgot about 1918. So troubles of georgia with S Osetians starts ther. If you check you can find out that some states are emerging time to time. Take Israel as example.
I wont comment your thoughts about germany becouse time and situation are different.
And lastly our nation faced A LOT of troubles in history including conquerors, but we still have our LARGE country. We have no desire to wait somebody to be gone we are making them be gone, that is our difference. Your words remind me of a Hyena who waits whenn lion is weak to bite.