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I do believe the topic deserves a separate Topic.
I am going to place all the new reports for the MAIN REASON for invasion from Russian side - Killed Civilians or Genocide. 
link: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/13/georgia">http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/13/georgia</a><!-- m -->
Russia exaggerating South Ossetian death toll, says human rights group
Russia exaggerating South Ossetian death toll, says human rights groupTom Parfitt in Vladikavkaz, North Ossetia guardian.co.uk, Wednesday August 13 2008 17:29 BST
Article history
Deliberate attempts by the Russian government to exaggerate the number of people killed in the South Ossetia conflict are provoking revenge attacks on Georgian villagers in the breakaway republic, a respected human rights group claimed today.
Anna Neistat of Human Rights Watch (HRW), who is leading a team investigating the humanitarian damage in South Ossetia, told the Guardian that Russian estimates of 2,000 dead in the conflict were "suspicious".
"The figure of 2,000 people killed is very doubtful," she said. "Our findings so far do not in any way confirm the Russian statistics. On the contrary, they suggest the numbers are exaggerated."
Neistat said that HRW investigators had, today and yesterday, recorded cases of Ossetian fighters burning and looting Georgian villages north of the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali.
"The torching of houses in these villages is in some ways a result of the massive Russia propaganda machine which constantly repeats claims of genocide and exaggerates the scale of casualties," she said. "That is then used to justify retribution."
Neistat said that doctors at Tskhinvali hospital had provided figures that 273 wounded people had been treated there during the conflict and a total of 44 dead people had been brought to the city morgue. Russian and South Ossetian officials have claimed that 1,400 people were killed in the first day of fighting, mostly in Tskhinvali.
There have been reports of Ossetians burying relatives in their allotments and there are no lists of the casualties. Neistat stressed that HRW's investigation was not complete but she added: "By day five of a conflict one normally expects that there is some kind of list of the dead and injured, or at least an indication of their age and gender. But here there is no information. Absolutely nothing."
"Europe should switch to nuclear and use the old gas pipes as sewers. The destination should be the Kremlin." @ a reader at timesonline.co.uk
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Mah, quelli mitici 2000! :-)
The war was still about to start when separatist leader announced this number. It's really ridiculous how the Russian propaganda is trying to find some "justification" for the crime commited by their gloriuos army.
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First - this is an English source of information, which I find to be nonobjective towards this conflict. UK as well as the US is Georgia's ally, therefore it will never defend the Russian part
Second - even if the number of 2000 is exaggerated, what about 1000? Would it be enough for you?
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Terry Wrote:First - this is an English source of information, which I find to be nonobjective towards this conflict. UK as well as the US is Georgia's ally, therefore it will never defend the Russian part
Second - even if the number of 2000 is exaggerated, what about 1000? Would it be enough for you?
I think you are mistaken regarding UK. Have you seen at least one statement from UK Officials about this war?
Secondly, you seem to think that western media is very much controlled by Governments. BBC and CNN for example are the World-wide brands and busienesses and never a mere UK or US Television.
Moreover, the report and assessment were made by HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH. You cannot beat that. HRW is a universally accepted international body. By the way, same group has very interesting articles and conclusions regarding Russia, Chechnya, etc.
Now with the numbers: Before the clashes started, Kokoity evacuated civilians. All of them, especially Women and Children. It was broadcasted on TV, and it was a logical thing to do. If the 1000 supposed civilians are men, I would conclude they were fighting. If they are children - gosh! Too bad. I cannot accept any women/Children deaths.
Again and again, where is the civilian casualties list?
It also depends on what kind of deaths those Women or Children suffered. Were they stabbed to death? shot in heads? Or were they a casualties of the war, and sustained their lethal injuries after a bomb blast, because they were too stubborn to leave the town, When Kokoity ordered so.
As a conclusion, its not always black and white picture, many grey areas. And its always too many, when Russians are involved in the conflicts. Just an observation.
"Europe should switch to nuclear and use the old gas pipes as sewers. The destination should be the Kremlin." @ a reader at timesonline.co.uk
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I agree that CNN, BBC and other world source of information are independent of their governments. However these are stereotypes who make these channels defend a one-sided opinion - against Russia.
If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is "God is crying." And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell him is "Probably because of something you did."
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How it turned out that initaiallly declared number of 2000 civilian casualties in Ossetians decreased to 133(human rights watch confirms only 44)? Number 133 is officially declared number by Russian officuals.Why Russian troops have not opened humanitarian corridor so far? Don`t you think they are falsificating some facts in Tskhinvali, aiming to use the bodys of dead Georgians to increase the number of civilian casualties to initially declared number?
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Dear forum users, please note, you are not allowed to use uncensored language within the forum. Try to respect each other's opinion.
Thank you!
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Benn Wrote:I agree that CNN, BBC and other world source of information are independent of their governments. However these are stereotypes who make these channels defend a one-sided opinion - against Russia.
How can you talk about western news channels that have stereotypes?
Do you remember the Iraq war? CNN was broadcasting things that were against the Bush administration, nut they did it.
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So, because of Saakashvili, about 133 civilians died in Tskhinvali. Indeed any died civilian is one too much.
But I find it ridiculous to compare Saakashvili with Hitler because of that!! Why not take a look at Putin: he has ordered the death of 100 000's civilians in Chechnya. And nobody has requested him to step away because of that!
Or Milosevic. His speech at Kosovo Polje in 1989 made Serbs in other countries to start tensions, which caused 100 000's of deaths. Certainly he is also more directly guilty for more civilian deaths than Saakashvili ever.
Putin is the real Hitler.
And now when the victims of the attack on Tskhinvali is "only" 133, I bet that the Russian occupying forces have already caused more deaths with their bombings in Gori and other cities!
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Salomo Wrote:So, because of Saakashvili, about 133 civilians died in Tskhinvali. Indeed any died civilian is one too much.
But I find it ridiculous to compare Saakashvili with Hitler because of that!! Why not take a look at Putin: he has ordered the death of 100 000's civilians in Chechnya. And nobody has requested him to step away because of that!
Or Milosevic. His speech at Kosovo Polje in 1989 made Serbs in other countries to start tensions, which caused 100 000's of deaths. Certainly he is also more directly guilty for more civilian deaths than Saakashvili ever.
Putin is the real Hitler.
And now when the victims of the attack on Tskhinvali is "only" 133, I bet that the Russian occupying forces have already caused more deaths with their bombings in Gori and other cities! Interesting. What is source of information? Everyone killed exactly 100 000? Sorry it realy looks EXTREAMLY DOUBTFULL. As whole your speach.
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Ok, sorry, my ”educated guess” was probably too high. The Wikipedia says about the 2nd Chechen War (entirely during Putin’s presidentship of Russia):
“The exact death toll from this conflict is unknown. Unofficial estimates range from 25,000 - 50,000 dead or missing, mostly civilians in Chechnya.”
So, let’s say 10 000’s (tens of thousands) of victims. Far too much anyway. Compared to that, Saakashvili is NOTHING, Putin has let kill about a hundred time more of civilians from the “enemy side”. Often crime enough was to be a Chechen young man: you were captured from your home by Russian forces, and then tortured or killed. What for???
So, if you do not have chased Putin away from the power, why should the Georgians chase Saakashvili?? Can you explain me that on behalf of all Russians? Many of them want Saakashvili to resign.
(I still agree that SiD, you are the best Russian person here to discuss with.)
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I doubt Russians ever captured anybody as prison and further tortured or kill them. Have any proofs of that, Salomo?
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Salomo Wrote:Ok, sorry, my ”educated guess” was probably too high. The Wikipedia says about the 2nd Chechen War (entirely during Putin’s presidentship of Russia):
“The exact death toll from this conflict is unknown. Unofficial estimates range from 25,000 - 50,000 dead or missing, mostly civilians in Chechnya.”
So, let’s say 10 000’s (tens of thousands) of victims. Far too much anyway. Compared to that, Saakashvili is NOTHING, Putin has let kill about a hundred time more of civilians from the “enemy side”. Often crime enough was to be a Chechen young man: you were captured from your home by Russian forces, and then tortured or killed. What for???
So, if you do not have chased Putin away from the power, why should the Georgians chase Saakashvili?? Can you explain me that on behalf of all Russians? Many of them want Saakashvili to resign.
(I still agree that SiD, you are the best Russian person here to discuss with.)
Sorry that havent answered previusly. It is realy hard to compare current situation in Georgia and chechen wars. Look find dead toll of russian troops in chechen wars and you will see some things. This two are absolutly uncomparable, different scale. If you cast aside Georgian hesterical retoric (sometimes we can imagine like all Georgia is in flames) we can see that this two wars have little in common. And it were terrorists treatening us. Realy. So if you look carefuly you will see BIG differences.
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What BIG differencies, SiD?
Yes, in the number of victims, indeed. The Chechen wars had much more. Ok, they also lasted longer, but...
Have you read Anna Politkovskaya's books, SiD? Has somebody else? What she tells in her books is so cruel I even stopped reading them, full of stories how peaceful villages lose everything because of the war. And the crimes of Russian army are far from being small.
Haven't you ever seen documents on Chechen wars? I have seen some, and they told what the Russian army was doing. Of course one should see also a Russian "reply" to the question, what were the Chechens doing then. But the question was: could Russia not simply let Ichkeria exist, a country where Russian were in VERY CLEAR minority, like Dagestan but UNLIKE most other Autonomous Republics of the Russian Federation. Letting Chechnya be independent does not mean every other A.R. would try the same. Most have Russian majority!
But look further: why Russia also killed all the Chechen leaders, including the ones who could had been "moderate" enough for compromises, like Aslan Maskhadov. Very sad 
Hm, you said Chechens were "terrorists". I bet you refer on Budyonnovsk, on Beslan, on Moscow Theatre etc. Well, what if Saakashvili had enough of South Ossetians shooting at Georgian villages close to Tskhinvali and he had to do something...? Again a similarity. Why do you forbid "operations" for Chechens but allow them to South Ossetians?
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Russian occupants need this exaggeration for hiding of an outrage upon humanity carried out against Georgian civilians
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Sight from the ossetic side <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://osinform.ru/index.php?action_skin_change=yes&skin_name=full_en">http://osinform.ru/index.php?action_ski ... me=full_en</a><!-- m -->
The crimes of georgian's army in S. Ossetia <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=OE1WNJOfnHY">http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=OE1WNJOfnHY</a><!-- m -->
Saakashvili is the criminal and the terrorist. His soldiers have killed 2100 peace citizens of Tskhinvali in some hours.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ">http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ</a><!-- m --> - Fox News: 12 Year Old Girl Tells the Truth about Georgia
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Simon A Wrote:Sight from the ossetic side <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://osinform.ru/index.php?action_skin_change=yes&skin_name=full_en">http://osinform.ru/index.php?action_ski ... me=full_en</a><!-- m -->
The crimes of georgian's army in S. Ossetia <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=OE1WNJOfnHY">http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=OE1WNJOfnHY</a><!-- m -->
Saakashvili is the criminal and the terrorist. His soldiers have killed 2100 peace citizens of Tskhinvali in some hours.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ">http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ</a><!-- m --> - Fox News: 12 Year Old Girl Tells the Truth about Georgia I fail to understand how could russian officials pre-declare the number of civilian casualties from the very beginning of the conflict, claiming 2000 death toll. A couple of days ago they confirmed 133, but the other day decided to adhere to initially declared number and declared 2000 again. At the same time HRW confirms 44. Please, explain me such permanent fluctuations from russian side.
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How can HRW estimate quantity killed for some hours of the work? The data on 2100 killed peace inhabitants are given official ossetic by authorities on are preliminary to estimations. Lists of victims are now made, because at work of the Georgian artillery of it nobody made. Besides a plenty of refugees has left for Russia - they should be found and asked about the lost relatives.
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Quote:are given official ossetic by authorities on are preliminary to estimations.
I could not understand the meaning of this phrase, could you kindly expalain, to give me an oportunity to answer you.
If I am not mistaken , Tskhinvali has been bombed by russians to pull out Georgians out of town. So are you absolutely sure thet these 44 civilians (I prefer to use independent source data) where not killed by russians? If we even make an assumption that the number declared by russian officials is right, then here we have some additional questions. Namely, If you remember, on the days before the conflict, russian propaganda machine was permanently announcing that georgians are going to start the military operation and that Tskhinvali is geing evacuated. If russians knew that georgians were going to attack Tskhinvali, why have they left so many civilians in there? I would like to remind you that this propaganda has been carried out for the weeks, so russians have had a lot of time to do so. Don`t you think that the russians were planning the operation themselves, knew that georgians will go into deffensive and so russians or left the civilians in Tskhinvali region deliberately to provoke civilian casualties for justification of their actions, or have really evacuated them and now are trying to manipulate with the death toll.
I
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I think we'll never find out the real number of killed people. Both sides will strive for hiding the truth - Russia will exaggerate, Georgia will bring the figure to very few.
If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is "God is crying." And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell him is "Probably because of something you did."
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Salomo Wrote:What BIG differencies, SiD?
Yes, in the number of victims, indeed. The Chechen wars had much more. Ok, they also lasted longer, but...
Have you read Anna Politkovskaya's books, SiD? Has somebody else? What she tells in her books is so cruel I even stopped reading them, full of stories how peaceful villages lose everything because of the war. And the crimes of Russian army are far from being small.
Haven't you ever seen documents on Chechen wars? I have seen some, and they told what the Russian army was doing. Of course one should see also a Russian "reply" to the question, what were the Chechens doing then. But the question was: could Russia not simply let Ichkeria exist, a country where Russian were in VERY CLEAR minority, like Dagestan but UNLIKE most other Autonomous Republics of the Russian Federation. Letting Chechnya be independent does not mean every other A.R. would try the same. Most have Russian majority!
But look further: why Russia also killed all the Chechen leaders, including the ones who could had been "moderate" enough for compromises, like Aslan Maskhadov. Very sad
Hm, you said Chechens were "terrorists". I bet you refer on Budyonnovsk, on Beslan, on Moscow Theatre etc. Well, what if Saakashvili had enough of South Ossetians shooting at Georgian villages close to Tskhinvali and he had to do something...? Again a similarity. Why do you forbid "operations" for Chechens but allow them to South Ossetians?
Salomo i excuse no crime. War is cruel and war crimes were mutual. I didnt said that all chechens were terrorists. I am no nazi. Chechnya became a BASE for terrorists and not only chechens. It was aggression of international scum. They resieved money, mercenaries weapons and iquiepment from many foreign states. They doesnt needed independence for chechens they wanted to hit Russia. And they did it many times. They shown that they wont stop with what they have.
Now lets take a look at S Osetia. Did they bombed appartments in Tbilisi, taken children as hostages???
Were they invading into Georgia???
All they needed is to have thier own peacefull country. That is BIG difference.
How many years peace was cept in S Osetia? There were shooting time to time , yes but you occuse only S Osetians, dont you think that they could answer to shooting from georgian willages?
Do not forget that ther were not only Russian peacekeepers but georgian too.
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So-called Russian “peacemakers” killed Georgian civilians by cluster bombing. If anybody has a doubt, please, visit the website of Human Rights Watch to see video of bombing of Georgian town Gori.
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(Aug. 27, 2008 – Moscow)
WAR IN OSSETIA – REPLY LIMITED – THE WEAK LINK
( Pls see full post below... or above :livre )
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Before the war started Ossetians had their orders to do all they can to provoke the war. Separatists and so-called Russian “peacemakers” systematically fired to Georgian villages around Thkhinvali. They had killed many Georgian civilians. Russian backed separatists denied any negotiation for peace. Georgian government was forced to protect these villages. After recent occupation of Georgia, Russian “peacemakers” commit to the flames these villages to carry out ethnic cleansing. They are involved in looting, rape and killing of Georgian citizens. Russian soldiers are telling Georgians they are to leave their homes or die. They say they have their orders. It is all happening in Georgia proper around Tskhinvali.
Russia does not let the Red Cross in South Ossetia. Why?
Really, Russia starts this war to put obstacles in Georgia's way to NATO. Everyone knows this, even Its staunch supporters from Iran, Venezuela, North Korea, Syria, Sudan, Byelorussia and Hezbollah.
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(Aug. 27, 2008 – Moscow)
WAR IN OSSETIA – REPLY LIMITED – THE WEAK LINK
There’s been a lot of talk in the West about the West being
limited in its response to Russia’s conduct in Ossetia, etc.
To me, the limitations lie in the ethics, in the West’s own
culture - not in politics or economics or military power.
It’s not even about the precedents and embarrassments such as
Kosovo or Iraq, where the West was/is debasing the values
it claims to profess.
In the Ossetian war, the limitations came the moment everyone
thought that Georgia’s president could be right after all, might
not be a totally bad idea to use multiple-rockets on a city of 10 000,
we just didn’t expect Russia to reply, it came as a surprise.
The rest – ‘the bear is back!’, ‘say no to Russia, we won the cold
war and we will move on!’ – were variations on the theme,
compensatory reactions and Freudian slips, the West struggling
with itself rather than Russia.
The limitations multiplied when it was said, oh it looks like just
a handful of civilians were killed in Ossetia, how good that
Russians can’t prove anything.
It’s not to say that the West is evil and that there’s one single
‘West’.
To me, there’s a crisis of meaning, a sense of identity gone wrong –
it affects judgment and cuts at the moral base.
You can’t bring together a country or a group of countries based
on consumer satisfaction and military power alone, you’ll keep
having problems with that.
Moscow
Russia
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