UN is sending Kosovo case to ICJ

[AriRusila]

The UN General Assembly is backing Serbia’s draft to request an advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) about the legality of the unilaterally declared independence of Kosovo. October 8th UNGA, by a recorded vote of 77 in favour to 6 against (Albania, Marshall Islands, Federated States of Micronesia, Nauru, Palau, United States), with 74 abstentions, adopted a resolution drafted by Serbia.

The resolution

In initiating the resolution, Serbia had responded to Kosovo’s unilateral declaration of independence on 17 February with “maximal restraint”, said Serbian Minister for Foreign Affairs Vuk Jeremi?, as he introduced the text. The resolution was asking the 192-member Assembly to convey its request to the Court--the United Nations’ highest judicial body--for an advisory opinion, in line with its powers under the Organization’s Charter. Sending the question to the Court “would prevent the Kosovo crisis from serving as a deeply problematic precedent in any part of the globe where secessionist ambitions are harboured”, he explained. An advisory opinion would provide politically neutral and judicially authoritative guidance to many countries still deliberating how to approach such unilateral declarations. “Support of this resolution would reaffirm a fundamental principal: the right of any Member State […] to pose a simple, basic question--on a matter it considers vitally important, to the international court,” he said, adding that a vote against the text would deny the right of any country–-now or in the future-–to seek judicial recourse through the United Nations system. “The question posed is amply clear and refrains from taking political positions on the Kosovo issue.”

The vote

With that, the draft received support from a geographic mix of countries, including Europe, Africa, South America and the Caribbean and the Middle East, with delegates backing the measure out of respect for international law, the United Nations Charter, States’ right to request an advisory opinion-–particularly on sovereignty matters-–and the Court’s position as the appropriate judicial body for ruling on such highly complex matters. Algeria’s representative also underscored that the draft contained no political or controversial elements.

Six country voted against (Albania, Marshall Islands, Federated States of Micronesia, Nauru, Palau, United States), 77 favoured the draft and 74 countries abstained. The European Union member countries did not have a united stand on the issue, with Slovakia, Greece, Cyprus, Spain and Romania voted in favour, while the rest abstained.

The conclusions

My conclusions about the vote, procedure and discussions in UN General Assembly are following:

• The Spanish representative really hit the nail on the head when he said that “his government considered the respect of international law was a principle which must be applied to all fields of international relations”. He added that “it at the same time highlights the importance of the functioning of the UN institutions”. So the big question is to restore some authority of UN as the main forum of international relations and to recognise ICJ’s role as highest judicial body of UN.
• The US vote against resolution was not surprise. USA has always during modern times been against International Court forbidding e.g. hearings of its war crimes there. USA has also frequently broke international law and underestimated UN/UNSC when needed for own tactical reasons.
• The European Union showed again that its speech about common ESDP, foreign policy etc.are fairy tales useful only for statements and real politic is something else. Those EU member states who have not made Kosovo recognition were also in this UN vote favour to ask ICJ ruling.
• The amount of abstained votes shows that in principle ICJ is respected because many countries were afraid how to act if ICJ rules their hesitated actions (recognition of Kosovo independence) wrong.
• The timing of this resolution is right. Even all those who supported Kosovo independence said that Kosovo was unique case and not precedent thousands of ethnical or separatist movements around the world made other conclusion – Kosovo really opened the “Pandora box”. To limit the degree of damage it is time to restore international forums and law.

Source of UNGA meeting and vote: UN News Service/GA/10764/8th October 2008; more about Kosovo case in my BlogArchive http://arirusila.wordpress.com

[Yalta1945]

My conclusions about the vote, procedure and discussions in UN General Assembly are following: <...>

The resolution requests the ICJ to render an advisory opinion on the question: "Is the unilateral declaration of independence by the Provisional Institutions of Self-Government of Kosovo in accordance with international law?"

Comments:
1. USA. Speaking on behalf of the United States, which was among the first to recognize Kosovo's independence, representative Rosemary DiCarlo called the resolution "unnecessary and unhelpful".

"Kosovo's independence is irreversible," she told the General Assembly. "We are confident that recognition of Kosovo's independence by an ever-increasing number of states is consistent with international law."
She added: "We do not think it appropriate or fair to the court to ask it to opine on what is essentially a matter that is reserved to the judgment of member states." source: AFP

2. UK. Britain's UN ambassador John Sawers, like many other speakers, reaffirmed his nations's support for the ICJ. But he noted that the "Serbian request is primarily for political rather than legal reasons".

"It is designed to slow down Kosovo's emergence as a widely recognized independent nation playing its part in the international institutions of the world," he added. "Kosovo's independence is and will remain a reality." source: AFP

3. A Western diplomat, speaking on condition of anonymity, said it could take the ICJ up to two years to render its non-binding opinion on the legality of Kosovo's independence. source: AFP
_________________________
The International Court of Justice
Jurisdiction site: http://www.icj-cij.org/jurisdiction/index.php?p1=5
The International Court of Justice acts as a world court. The Court has a dual jurisdiction : it decides, in accordance with international law, disputes of a legal nature that are submitted to it by States (jurisdiction in contentious cases); and it gives advisory opinions on legal questions at the request of the organs of the United Nations or specialized agencies authorized to make such a request (advisory jurisdiction).
→ Contentious Jurisdiction
The Court can only deal with a dispute when the States concerned have recognized its jurisdiction. No State can therefore be a party to proceedings before the Court unless it has in some manner or other consented thereto.
→ Advisory Jurisdiction
Contrary to judgments, and except in rare cases where it is stipulated beforehand that they shall have binding effect (for example, as in the Convention on the Privileges and Immunities of the United Nations, in the Convention on the Privileges and Immunities of the specialized agencies of the United Nations, and the Headquarters Agreement between the United Nations and the United States of America), the Court's advisory opinions have no binding effect. The requesting organ, agency or organization remains free to decide, by any means open to it, what effect to give to these opinions.

[Yalta1945]

Feb 21st 2008 , From Economist.com
Why does the EU support independence for Kosovo?

WHY is the West giving Kosovo independence when it refuses to recognise Transdniestria, South Ossetia and Abkhazia? These three places are nominally independent—at least in their own eyes—and have been so for many years.

At first sight it seems a clear case of Western double standards. Kosovar Albanians don’t want to be under Serbian rule any more than the Abkhaz feel Georgian or the Transdniestrians like Moldova. They have established their status by force of arms, and entrenched it over ten years of quasi-independence. Is not the real story just an American power-play in Europe, punishing Serbia and rewarding the only pro-American Muslims in the world?

Nobody would deny that such political calculations have influenced decision-making. But the real difference is another one. Kosovo wants to join the European Union. That much is at least clear, however badly run Kosovo may be at the moment, and however much gangsterism and ethno-nationalism have flourished there under the haphazard stewardship of the so-called international community. Kosovo does not want to join, say, Turkey in a new “Ottoman Caliphate”. Nor is it even interested in forming a “Greater Albania”.


That makes a big difference. Transdniestria, Abkhazia and South Ossetia do not subscribe to the Euroatlantic vision of multilateral security and law-governed political freedom. The main priority of the ruling elites there is self-enrichment, followed by at least a rhetorical commitment to closer integration with Russia (a goal that the Kremlin endorses in theory but seems remarkably cautious about in practice).

The West is reluctant to say so bluntly, but that makes a difference. The EU is sending thousands of lawyers, prosecutors and police officers to Kosovo, in what might be termed the continent’s most ambitious colonial adventure for decades. That “soft imperialism” creates at least a chance of success for Kosovo’s independence.

All this may yet be derailed. Bosnia is falling apart again; Macedonia still looks fragile; and Russia could not ask for more fertile soil for mischief, with Europe divided and indecisive. But it is worth a try.

Contrast that with Transdniestria or Abkhazia. Imagine that Russia and a bunch of other countries—Belarus, Uzbekistan, Armenia and Venezuela, say—decided to go ahead and recognise these breakaway statelets. It is almost laughable to imagine what such outside supporters could offer to promote the rule of law and good government. Would Hugo Chávez of Venezuela offer policemen? Would Russia provide prosecutors, or Uzbekistan start teaching Abkhaz civil servants about e-government?

This is the weakness at the heart of all the Kremlin’s foreign-policy efforts in the countries of the former Soviet Union. It offers a great deal for elites. Some enjoy lavish hospitality and lucrative directorships. Others get intelligence co-operation and sales of advanced weaponry.

But Russia has much less to offer from the public’s point of view. True, it offers passports, and a Russian passport is not worthless.

But the survival of the Soviet-era propiska system means that this does not confer the prized right to live and work in Moscow. Even the Kremlin’s most loyal allies can’t offer that to their citizens as a quid pro quo. (Admittedly, Schengen and American visas can still be shamefully hard to come by, even for citizens of ex-captive nations that are loyally Euroatlantic in outlook).

What the EU will not say, but thinks privately, is this: We are supporting Kosovo’s independence because of the chance that it will become more like us, and hence a better neighbour. We oppose independence for Transdniestria et al because it would make them more like Russia, and therefore worse for Europe.

http://edwardlucas.blogspot.com/search/label/kosovo

[SiD]

Why does the EU support independence for Kosovo?

WHY is the West giving Kosovo independence when it refuses to recognise Transdniestria, South Ossetia and Abkhazia? These three places are nominally independent—at least in their own eyes—and have been so for many years.

At first sight it seems a clear case of Western double standards. Kosovar Albanians don’t want to be under Serbian rule any more than the Abkhaz feel Georgian or the Transdniestrians like Moldova. They have established their status by force of arms, and entrenched it over ten years of quasi-independence. Is not the real story just an American power-play in Europe, punishing Serbia and rewarding the only pro-American Muslims in the world?

Nobody would deny that such political calculations have influenced decision-making. But the real difference is another one. Kosovo wants to join the European Union. That much is at least clear, however badly run Kosovo may be at the moment, and however much gangsterism and ethno-nationalism have flourished there under the haphazard stewardship of the so-called international community. Kosovo does not want to join, say, Turkey in a new “Ottoman Caliphate”. Nor is it even interested in forming a “Greater Albania”.


That makes a big difference. Transdniestria, Abkhazia and South Ossetia do not subscribe to the Euroatlantic vision of multilateral security and law-governed political freedom. The main priority of the ruling elites there is self-enrichment, followed by at least a rhetorical commitment to closer integration with Russia (a goal that the Kremlin endorses in theory but seems remarkably cautious about in practice).

The West is reluctant to say so bluntly, but that makes a difference. The EU is sending thousands of lawyers, prosecutors and police officers to Kosovo, in what might be termed the continent’s most ambitious colonial adventure for decades. That “soft imperialism” creates at least a chance of success for Kosovo’s independence.

All this may yet be derailed. Bosnia is falling apart again; Macedonia still looks fragile; and Russia could not ask for more fertile soil for mischief, with Europe divided and indecisive. But it is worth a try.

Contrast that with Transdniestria or Abkhazia. Imagine that Russia and a bunch of other countries—Belarus, Uzbekistan, Armenia and Venezuela, say—decided to go ahead and recognise these breakaway statelets. It is almost laughable to imagine what such outside supporters could offer to promote the rule of law and good government. Would Hugo Chávez of Venezuela offer policemen? Would Russia provide prosecutors, or Uzbekistan start teaching Abkhaz civil servants about e-government?

This is the weakness at the heart of all the Kremlin’s foreign-policy efforts in the countries of the former Soviet Union. It offers a great deal for elites. Some enjoy lavish hospitality and lucrative directorships. Others get intelligence co-operation and sales of advanced weaponry.

But Russia has much less to offer from the public’s point of view. True, it offers passports, and a Russian passport is not worthless.

But the survival of the Soviet-era propiska system means that this does not confer the prized right to live and work in Moscow. Even the Kremlin’s most loyal allies can’t offer that to their citizens as a quid pro quo. (Admittedly, Schengen and American visas can still be shamefully hard to come by, even for citizens of ex-captive nations that are loyally Euroatlantic in outlook).

What the EU will not say, but thinks privately, is this: We are supporting Kosovo’s independence because of the chance that it will become more like us, and hence a better neighbour. We oppose independence for Transdniestria et al because it would make them more like Russia, and therefore worse for Europe.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://edwardlucas.blogspot.com/search/label/kosovo">http://edwardlucas.blogspot.com/search/label/kosovo</a><!-- m -->
Feb 21st 2008 , From Economist.com

At another sight too, even after tenth time it will be the same .

Eah REAL difference and one that "doesnt speaks about double standarts"

Well if you wanted to prove that EU is using double standarts than you succeded.

[Yalta1945]

Well if you wanted to prove that EU is using double standarts than you succeded.

The EU should be very concerned whether it uses double standarts.
I do not share fully E.Lucas' view, for I think we should look opon the matter in a broader view which would put a stronger emphasis on basic human rights and would include more detailed analysis. However I saw his article to include important thoughts to the point of the topic.
As you coloured some sentences in the article, I also should like something to colour:
Transdniestria, Abkhazia and South Ossetia do not subscribe to the Euroatlantic vision of multilateral security and law-governed political freedom
Imagine that Russia and a bunch of other countries—Belarus, Uzbekistan, Armenia and Venezuela, say—decided to go ahead and recognise these breakaway statelets. It is almost laughable to imagine what such outside supporters could offer to promote the rule of law and good government.

[SiD]

Since wenn humanity granted to Europe right to deside for them what government is good, what is best for them and to bring rule of law? You know it is sound kind like nazi, they thought that they are superior race, in this article autor says that europe has superior how can i put it, superior way of life that must be imposed on everyone. (i hope you got my idea). You see there were people in Russia who tought that they know right way, i hope you havent forgot who they were?

[Yalta1945]

Since wenn humanity granted to Europe right to deside for them what government is good, what is best for them and to bring rule of law? You know it is sound kind like nazi, they thought that they are superior race, in this article autor says that europe has superior how can i put it, superior way of life that must be imposed on everyone. (i hope you got my idea). You see there were people in Russia who tought that they know right way, i hope you havent forgot who they were?

You probably think that values are all relative. Just "good for A" or "good for B", and they cannot be just "good". Dont impose on your releativism - it's not good for me

[SiD]

You probably think that values are all relative. Just "good for A" or "good for B", and they cannot be just "good". Dont impose on your releativism - it's not good for me

To proclaim value of country A good to country B you should respect right of country B to have thier own opinion about it. Not to say that it is loughable that it could be anything better than to do what country A wants. Parhaps freedom of choice is not among your "good" values?

[Yalta1945]

You probably think that values are all relative. Just "good for A" or "good for B", and they cannot be just "good". Dont impose on your releativism - it's not good for me

To proclaim value of country A good to country B you should respect right of country B to have thier own opinion about it. Not to say that it is loughable that it could be anything better than to do what country A wants. Parhaps freedom of choice is not among your "good" values?

The freedom of choice between good and bad or between right and wrong as well as between wise and dumb would be a silly choice of freedom , not to say more.
I can't believe you argue against the rule of law. hock:
Dislike the good government talk? Well, we could change if for good governance. Good governance and anti-corruption rules are at the mainstream in the European Union.

[SiD]

The freedom of choice between good and bad or between right and wrong as well as between wise and dumb would be a silly choice of freedom , not to say more.
I can't believe you argue against the rule of law.
Dislike the good government talk? Well, we could change if for good governance. Good governance and anti-corruption rules are at the mainstream in the European Union.

Have you read what written by you? Good, bad, right, wrong, wise, dumb there are not concrete. If fanatic is absolutely sure that USA is evil it is good for him to kill americans, no matter whom: man, woman, children.
For him some terrorists leader is wise man, who is fighting for right couse. For him it is realy silly choice. he do not tolerates any opposition, white and black are obvius for him.

Selfrightousness is not excuse for double standarts. People have right to choose what they want. (with reasanable limitations of course). Real ignorance ti think that you only one who knows how to live. But autor you gave speaks with open text that only real value is good of EU.

[Yalta1945]

The freedom of choice between good and bad or between right and wrong as well as between wise and dumb would be a silly choice of freedom , not to say more.
I can't believe you argue against the rule of law.
Dislike the good government talk? Well, we could change if for good governance. Good governance and anti-corruption rules are at the mainstream in the European Union.

Have you read what written by you? Good, bad, right, wrong, wise, dumb there are not concrete. If fanatic is absolutely sure that USA is evil it is good for him to kill americans, no matter whom: man, woman, children.
For him some terrorists leader is wise man, who is fighting for right couse. For him it is realy silly choice. he do not tolerates any opposition, white and black are obvius for him.

Selfrightousness is not excuse for double standarts. People have right to choose what they want. (with reasanable limitations of course). Real ignorance ti think that you only one who knows how to live. But autor you gave speaks with open text that only real value is good of EU.

If this fanatic who's "absolutely sure that USA [why them again..? ok,leditbee] is evil" is sitting in our heads, let's kill him - and peace will prevail.
It's the problem of some segment of the contemporary society that they make a mess of things which should be simple. White is white, black is black, but if you see grey it means you see grey.
I don’t know if you ever saw an old film (made in the Soviet time) where it is shown how the unilateral opinion of a group may have such impact on the behaviour of an individual that he (it was a man) cannot tell the simplest truth when he sees black colour. If everybody before him says “white”, he also says “white”. One of the laws of social psychology. Social psychology means experimentally proved laws, that is, pure science (without medieval prejudices [not like Machiavellism]).
2x2=4. Kids understand it, but adults sometimes don't - I mean quite literarily: when I had to remind to a man who held Master's Degree in Economics that 2x2=4, he replied “2x2=4 is boring”. When it is not boring, it is not so hard to tell good from bad.

I mentioned good governance and anti-corruption rules. It's about what people do when they do not wage wars.

[SiD]

If this fanatic who's "absolutely sure that USA [why them again..? ok,leditbee] is evil" is sitting in our heads, let's kill him - and peace will prevail.
It's the problem of some segment of the contemporary society that they make a mess of things which should be simple. White is white, black is black, but if you see grey it means you see grey.
I don’t know if you ever saw an old film (made in the Soviet time) where it is shown how the unilateral opinion of a group may have such impact on the behaviour of an individual that he (it was a man) cannot tell the simplest truth when he sees black colour. If everybody before him says “white”, he also says “white”. One of the laws of social psychology. Social psychology means experimentally proved laws, that is, pure science (without medieval prejudices [not like Machiavellism]).
2x2=4. Kids understand it, but adults sometimes don't - I mean quite literarily: when I had to remind to a man who held Master's Degree in Economics that 2x2=4, he replied “2x2=4 is boring”. When it is not boring, it is not so hard to tell good from bad.

I mentioned good governance and anti-corruption rules. It's about what people do when they do not wage wars.

Can you say that 2x2=4 if we use binar system?
It is naive to think that it is only black and white in the world. You just naive as child or complitely brainwashed.
Simplest example: policeman shot a criminal wenn criminal tryed to shot cop, he killed man but i doubt you will call this policeman evil man. It is just SIMPLEST example. You will justify cop of course but if simply said to you one man killed other it is good or bad? Without more knowledge you cant say, and if you do you can be wrong.

So we must assume that there is no good governance and anti - corruption rules in US and countrys of NATO? Your words.

[Yalta1945]

Can you say that 2x2=4 if we use binar system?

2x2 is always 4 – in decimal, binary, hexadecimal or any other system. The notation differs, not the results.

It is naive to think that it is only black and white in the world.

You are either daydreaming or thwarting silly the sentence which was made absolutely clear, allowing for no such misinterpretation.

Simplest example: policeman shot a criminal wenn criminal tryed to shot cop, he killed man but i doubt you will call this policeman evil man. It is just SIMPLEST example. You will justify cop of course but if simply said to you one man killed other it is good or bad? Without more knowledge you cant say, and if you do you can be wrong.

If you say “a man killed another man” – it’s in a grey zone, because all we know that this might happen also in self-defence or in defence of other peoples’ lives. It also might be homicide or it might be manslaughter… It depends. Policeman is also a man subject to the rule of law. In Russia, the law is traditionally meant for subjugated citizens only, exempting the powers of government. In the West, government and its officials are put under the rule of law. So, “a man killed another one” – were it a policeman or not - requires more information or investigation in order to make more grounded judgment on the fact. However, if you conceal it was a policeman, you are wrong because you know it is essential information for an investigation. And don’t play those word games. Let say, if you try to suggest by your phrase it was a murder in case you know it was an accident – then you are a liar. That’s why I recommended you reading “Opravdaniye Dobra”: it contains introspection into the well-known question whether lying can be justified. The author goes straight to the core when he explains it is just the wrong perception of the meaning of telling truth or telling lies that misleads people into believing there are situations when lying may be the bless. If you do not accept his view, lying becomes redefined to change for some ever morally neutral new meaning and we need another term to designate the traditional meaning of lie. Then it would be more about our language and definitions of words than about anything else.

[Yalta1945]

Why Kosovo is different from South Ossetia
Citizens of Kosovo identify themselves as a separate national unit who needs an independent state. They do not accept citizenship of any other state and they do not declare any wish to join any other state.
Russian citizens in South Ossetia do not fight for their independence – they fight for dependence as they want to join the Russian state. It’s an annexation plan for Russia. Even if Russian official for some reasons do not hurry to accept it, more important is however that the leaders of South Ossetian separatists declared their wish of joining Russia long ago and they repeated it just recently. We do not have anywhere in the world the situation when a fraction of foreign citizens decide on handing over the territory of their living to another state.
Besides, before the declaration of dependence on Russia, actions of ethnic cleansing were perpetrated against ethnic Georgians who used to form a considerable part of population of South Ossetia before being driven out of homes and turned into refugees to seek shelters in other parts of Georgia.
The same happened in Abkhazia where ethnic Georgians used to be in majority before the fighting.
It’s not normal when some Russian citizen who calls himself president of South Ossetia seeks for annexation of the Georgian territory.

[SiD]

2x2 is always 4 – in decimal, binary, hexadecimal or any other system. The notation differs, not the results.

Yeah? i hope you know that there is no 4 in binar system. Even no 2. Parhaps you want write it in binar system to see "little" difference?

You are either daydreaming or thwarting silly the sentence which was made absolutely clear, allowing for no such misinterpretation.

I see, your brain is washed alright. Good for you, it simpler to live if you do not have to use your own judgement and head.

If you say “a man killed another man” – it’s in a grey zone, because all we know that this might happen also in self-defence or in defence of other peoples’ lives. It also might be homicide or it might be manslaughter… It depends. Policeman is also a man subject to the rule of law. In Russia, the law is traditionally meant for subjugated citizens only, exempting the powers of government. In the West, government and its officials are put under the rule of law. So, “a man killed another one” – were it a policeman or not - requires more information or investigation in order to make more grounded judgment on the fact. However, if you conceal it was a policeman, you are wrong because you now it is essential information for an investigation. And don’t play those word games. Let say, if you try to suggest by your phrase it was a murder in case you know it was an accident – then you are a liar. That’s why I recommended you reading “Opravdaniye Dobra”: it contains introspection into the well-known question whether lying can be justified. The author goes straight to the core when he explains it is just the wrong perception of the meaning of telling truth or telling lies that misleads people into believing there are situations when lying may be the bless. If you do not accept his view, lying becomes redefined to change for some ever morally neutral new meaning and we need another term to designate the traditional meaning of lie. Then it would be more about our language and definitions of words than about anything else.

As always you try to sink truth in words. Truth is that there is no fixed white and black. It is simplest thing for any sane mane to understand. There is and will be much discussion. So yur opinoin about fixed values is simple rubbish . But even you can accept truth sometimes. If black and white are so obvius how you say, why you need to know so many facts?

[SiD]

Why Kosovo is different from South Ossetia
Citizens of Kosovo identify themselves as a separate national unit who needs an independent state. They do not accept citizenship of any other state and they do not declare any wish to join any other state.
Russian citizens in South Ossetia do not fight for their independence – they fight for dependence as they want to join the Russian state. It’s an annexation plan for Russia. Even if Russian official for some reasons do not hurry to accept it, more important is however that the leaders of South Ossetian separatists declared their wish of joining Russia long ago and they repeated it just recently. We do not have anywhere in the world the situation when a fraction of foreign citizens decide on handing over the territory of their living to another state.
Besides, before the declaration of dependence on Russia, actions of ethnic cleansing were perpetrated against ethnic Georgians who used to form a considerable part of population of South Ossetia before being driven out of homes and turned into refugees to seek shelters in other parts of Georgia.
The same happened in Abkhazia where ethnic Georgians used to be in majority before the fighting.
It’s not normal when some Russian citizen who calls himself president of South Ossetia seeks for annexation of the Georgian territory.

Citizens of Kosovo are ready to join EU and NATO any day of the week. Parhaps i oppened america for you? SURPRISE!!!!

How many serbs are in Kosovo now?! How many were before?! Look at those who you admire actions before try to blacken others.

[Yalta1945]

2x2 is always 4 – in decimal, binary, hexadecimal or any other system. The notation differs, not the results.

Yeah? i hope you know that there is no 4 in binar system. Even no 2. Parhaps you want write it in binar system to see "little" difference?

Math for dummies: two is always two, and four is always four – no matter how you write/notate it.
Maybe you think four is five on a shiny day?
2x2=4. For the illiterate: two multiplied by two makes four. Дошло? Why one has to explain it all to an annoying boy under the topic of "UN is sending Kosovo case to ICJ”. Kosovars are laughing at us. Don’t be зануда , please.

I see, your brain is washed alright. Good for you, it simpler to live if you do not have to use your own judgement and head.

I see, when you have no arguments you just burst into irrational anger. Now let's see what can we find about Russian brainwashing on the net: 'Polls indicate that the public is highly responsive to television brainwashing -- whether the campaigns are against Georgia, Ukraine or the West, or are intended to influence voting preferences.' Brainwashing in Soviet/Russian army is classics for sociology students.

Truth is that there is no fixed white and black. It is simplest thing for any sane mane to understand.

Today is Sunday. It's truth (if you read it on Sunday )

But even you can accept truth sometimes. If black and white are so obvius how you say, why you need to know so many facts?

What's the problem, Sanny Manny? Ignorance is not a virtue.

[Yalta1945]

Why Kosovo is different from South Ossetia
Citizens of Kosovo identify themselves as a separate national unit who needs an independent state. They do not accept citizenship of any other state and they do not declare any wish to join any other state.
Russian citizens in South Ossetia do not fight for their independence – they fight for dependence as they want to join the Russian state. It’s an annexation plan for Russia. Even if Russian official for some reasons do not hurry to accept it, more important is however that the leaders of South Ossetian separatists declared their wish of joining Russia long ago and they repeated it just recently. We do not have anywhere in the world the situation when a fraction of foreign citizens decide on handing over the territory of their living to another state.
Besides, before the declaration of dependence on Russia, actions of ethnic cleansing were perpetrated against ethnic Georgians who used to form a considerable part of population of South Ossetia before being driven out of homes and turned into refugees to seek shelters in other parts of Georgia.
The same happened in Abkhazia where ethnic Georgians used to be in majority before the fighting.
It’s not normal when some Russian citizen who calls himself president of South Ossetia seeks for annexation of the Georgian territory.

Citizens of Kosovo are ready to join EU and NATO any day of the week. Parhaps i oppened america for you? SURPRISE!!!!

What else could they possibly join? CIS or Russia cannot train good civil servants. Russia is not the country to provide assistance with good governance and anti-corruption rules. Without traditions of the rule of law (that's why Gorbachev invented the term "pravovoye gosudarstvo"), with high corruption and criminality, what can you offer them? With so widespread xenophobia, imperialist thinking, and disrespect to basic human rights, what type of behaviour can you teach them? With so miserable attitude to free and critical media, fair elections, and other democratic values, with extreme greediness what values can you propagate? And don't be surprised if Kosovars dislike you after your unconditional support of Milosevic. The EU has capacity to provide the assistance Kosovars are in need.

How many serbs are in Kosovo now?! How many were before?! Look at those who you admire actions before try to blacken others.

You should have better started from the point when Milosevic promissed 'nobody will touch you' - and what happened afterwards. And don't forget that the EU aims at bringing all criminals to justice. If you examine the list of those to be tried, you'll see it includes surnames of all sides.

[SiD]

Math for dummies: two is always two, and four is always four – no matter how you write/notate it.
Maybe you think four is five on a shiny day?
2x2=4. For the illiterate: two multiplied at two makes four. Дошло? Why one has to explain it all to an annoying boy under the topic of "UN is sending Kosovo case to ICJ”. Kosovars are laughing at us. Don’t be зануда , please.

10+10=100 am i right? Check your Math for dummies and tell me. Parhaps you will understand at least something.

I see, when you have no arguments you just burst into irrational anger. Now let's see what can we find about Russian brainwashing on the net: 'Polls indicate that the public is highly responsive to television brainwashing -- whether the campaigns are against Georgia, Ukraine or the West, or are intended to influence voting preferences.' Brainwashing in Soviet/Russian army is classics for sociology students.

This is just pathetic. Polls indicate :haha . And only resondent was you i think. But how could anyone doubt such undoubtfull truth. .

Today is Sunday. It's truth (if you read it on Sunday )

i think you havent heard about time zones. . So yor truth can easyly be false.

What's the problem, Sanny Manny? Ignorance is not a virtue.

thats right. Parhaps if you acknowlrdge that you can find some other your virtues?

Parhaps if something depedns on many factors it is not so obvius after all? What for do we need curts? . I think you can tell criminal from incocent, good from evil, right from wrong with closed ayes and under water, it is obvius for you.

[SiD]

What else could they possibly join? CIS or Russia cannot train good civil servants. Russia is not the country to provide assistance with good governance and anti-corruption rules. Without traditions of the rule of law (that's why Gorbachev invented the term "pravovoye gosudarstvo"), with high corruption and criminality, what can you offer them? With so widespread xenophobia, imperialist thinking, and disrespect to basic human rights, what type of behaviour can you teach them? With so miserable attitude to free and critical media, fair elections, and other democratic values, with extreme greediness what values can you propagate? And don't be surprised if Kosovars dislike you after your unconditional support of Milosevic. The EU has capacity to provide the assistance Kosovars are in need.

I suppose that you havent considered that if someone wants to join Russia they have reasons for it and we have SOMETHING to offer. That is why your position is stupid. First you tell that Kosovo is different becouse it wants to be by your words independent, now you tell that you have much to offer and that is why it is clear that they want to join EU. Your loghick is quite elusive.

You should have better started from the point when Milosevic promissed 'nobody will touch you' - and what happened afterwards. And don't forget that the EU aims of bringing all criminals to justice. If you examine the list of those to be tried, you'll see it includes surnames of all sides.

Yeah i see that NATO is ready not only to "tough" anyone. No independence, sovereignity, integrity, human rights, international law is stoping them. they stoped violance by driving serbs out, "good job" , examplary.

[Yalta1945]

Math for dummies: two is always two, and four is always four – no matter how you write/notate it.
Maybe you think four is five on a shiny day?
2x2=4. For the illiterate: two multiplied by two makes four. Дошло? Why one has to explain it all to an annoying boy under the topic of "UN is sending Kosovo case to ICJ”. Kosovars are laughing at us. Don’t be зануда , please.

10+10=100 am i right? Check your Math for dummies and tell me. Parhaps you will understand at least something.

"Are you going to bath?"
"No, I'm not. I'm going to bath"
"Why not? You'd better go to bath"
8-)
I told you from the very beginning that two times two is four. You expressed the same equation in a different notation (like using another language). While I was doing it simply, as usual, you wrote it the way that is meant for machines. Are there any machines, computers, robots, cyborgs or binarybrained aliens from other planets whom you communicate your messages to? Let’s be consistent in our ways of expression: I will continue writing in a normal decimal way when operating with numbers; but you always go on like you did it here by “10+10=100". You'll see what people think about it (and you, too) after some time.

[Yalta1945]

What else could they possibly join? CIS or Russia cannot train good civil servants. Russia is not the country to provide assistance with good governance and anti-corruption rules. Without traditions of the rule of law (that's why Gorbachev invented the term "pravovoye gosudarstvo"), with high corruption and criminality, what can you offer them? With so widespread xenophobia, imperialist thinking, and disrespect to basic human rights, what type of behaviour can you teach them? With so miserable attitude to free and critical media, fair elections, and other democratic values, with extreme greediness what values can you propagate? And don't be surprised if Kosovars dislike you after your unconditional support of Milosevic. The EU has capacity to provide the assistance Kosovars are in need.

I suppose that you havent considered that if someone wants to join Russia they have reasons for it and we have SOMETHING to offer. That is why your position is stupid. First you tell that Kosovo is different becouse it wants to be by your words independent, now you tell that you have much to offer and that is why it is clear that they want to join EU. Your loghick is quite elusive.

Yes, you have RUSSIANS PASSPORTS to offer to the politicians whom their own ambitions matter above all.
The European Union is not an empire like Russia, so independent states do not lose their independency by entering the Union.

You should have better started from the point when Milosevic promissed 'nobody will touch you' - and what happened afterwards. And don't forget that the EU aims of bringing all criminals to justice. If you examine the list of those to be tried, you'll see it includes surnames of all sides.

Yeah i see that NATO is ready not only to "tough" anyone. No independence, sovereignity, integrity, human rights, international law is stoping them. they stoped violance by driving serbs out, "good job" , examplary.

What impression could an ordinary person draw out of reading the lines above? NATO had just to watch massacres and do nothing - this was a "briliant" idea! On the other side, NATO must not even critisize Russia for the aggression against Georgia.
If you are so smart, put down what you think NATO should have done differently.

[SiD]

2x2=4. Kids understand it, but adults sometimes don't - I mean quite literarily: when I had to remind to a man who held Master's Degree in Economics that 2x2=4, he replied “2x2=4 is boring”. When it is not boring, it is not so hard to tell good from bad.

You told THAT from begining. Very short memory you have. So i gave you simplest example that if man knows that there is not just decimal system but others he will not accuse man writing 10+10=100 in being wrong. He will take into cosideration that binar system exist. So one needs everytime use his had, becouse not everything is "obvius". If man is using binar systen to achieve results it dont make him wrong only becouse you like decimal system so much. By THAT i wanted to show you that if nation chosen way that differs in something from yours it doesnt mean it is wrong or bad or evil or wanether.

So we go back to begining:

The freedom of choice between good and bad or between right and wrong as well as between wise and dumb would be a silly choice of freedom , not to say more.

Realy one must use his head to make choice becouse there are always many details that can MAKE DIFFERENCE. So that is why we have freedom of choice. (i hope at least policeman helped you to understand that there is depandence ). There are different views about what is right or wrong. Take aborts or euthanasia.

[SiD]

Yes, you have RUSSIANS PASSPORTS to offer to the politicians whom their own ambitions matter above all.
The European Union is not an empire like Russia, so independent states do not lose their independency by entering the Union.

i think you want to change your maps or sources, last time i checked i found only RUSSIAN FEDERATION.
By the way you have (if you didnt notice) dissmissed one of your "differences" of kosovo from S Osetia. No matter who joins whom.
And our how you once said "helpfull hand with passport" is carryng gun sometimes to defend civilians and help to establish peace.

What impression could an ordinary person draw out of reading the lines above? NATO had just to watch massacres and do nothing - this was a "briliant" idea! On the other side, NATO must not even critisize Russia for the aggression against Georgia.
If you are so smart, put down what you think NATO should have done differently.

Stop massacre is noble thing but results are far from noble. NATO should not take side. Not many serbs are in Kosovo now, stop one side violance to allow other side to commit thier own freely that isnt "brilliant" idea for sure.(same applies for ALL states or blocks, or governments). And of course to recognize independence of Kosovo was great mistake. That opened pandoran box and we see results now, as i said bad example spreads quickly. Conflicts must be settled (in ideal) trough negothiations and compromiss not trough one side saing what it wants. Besides if we follow your autor :

We are supporting Kosovo’s independence because of the chance that it will become more like us, and hence a better neighbour. We oppose independence for Transdniestria et al because it would make them more like Russia, and therefore worse for Europe.

just interests nothing else. It is good for us that means it is good. Everything he cares is chance not justice, law or anything else. It is just justification of double standarts and rules of jungle.

[Yalta1945]

2x2=4. Kids understand it, but adults sometimes don't - I mean quite literarily: when I had to remind to a man who held Master's Degree in Economics that 2x2=4, he replied “2x2=4 is boring”. When it is not boring, it is not so hard to tell good from bad.

<...> i wanted to show you that if nation chosen way that differs in something from yours it doesnt mean it is wrong or bad or evil or wanether.

Short intro: while I was writing some politician was talking on TV (elections in Lithuania), and she said that “sometimes two times two is three, but sometimes it is five”.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is often no link between your statements and points of refreference, SiD. You make it sound like this: “Since the Earth is flat, not all frogs are yellow”.
You didn’t like the simple truth expressed by equation “2x2=4” and then you started arguing against it by using binary system instead of decimal just to arrive at the same truth I pointed to: two times two is four, or, the same 2x2=4. Frankly, for a person with normal logic, I think, it could be hard to understand what your fluffy sophism and distortion of the opponent’s reasoning aims at… Don’t complicate simple truth! This is exactly what I told you at the very beginning: even the truth as elementary as 2x2 (which the smallest kids can easily understand) makes you stumble over.
Now I have to guess what you wanted to say. My guess is the following: by showing that there are different numeral systems, you wanted to make a parallel between a “numeral system” and “the way nation chooses”, while equation “two times two is four” (because of your strange way of thinking, I have to write it by words) serves as the verification instrument for the chosen numeral system. Is this the case? (Without your explanation it is just impossible to see your point.) IF this is the case, THEN you lost my point and turned everything just upside down. Numeral system does not need any verification. Either you choose binary system, OR decimal OR octal OR hexadecimal OR any other – it’s all right. It makes no difference. In all of these systems two times two is four. While “the way nation chooses” does make a difference for the result. Moreover, you missed the very point: “the way nation chooses” is extremely important and valuable by itself and may be viewed as the result itself. For a person who makes a stroll on the way, the main aim is strolling – not some point of arrival. “The way we live” is just a value by itself. I don’t need thinking that the usefulness of the time I have spent today should be measured in reference to some goal in the future. (Actually, today is a dreadful day because I spend so much time answering to the bullshit “SiD” wrote.) What is the final point on our way of life?
We are you going to? :?: :?: :?:
Where will you go when you die?
_____
2x2=4.