sektor_Gaza Wrote:Quote:And it explains many things! you make your conclusions on the news you have seen on Russian TV? Hmmmm....It is useless to debate now as Mr. Putin strongly controls what must be shown, especially on the chanels broadcasting to EU)) We can watch Ukrainian news, Russian, European and US...so we are able to compare different points of view and make our own conclusions. Russian channels are censored very very much!But, again, it's your opinion...time will show who is right...anyway I do not want this conflict among officials be a reason of hate between people...((
My Dear Friends,
Russia does not block any television channel from any country. It is Ukraine who blocked all Russian TV channels and left Russian - speakers uninformed and discriminated since Ukraine restricted use of Russian language in Ukraine. I said I love Ukrainians, but hate radical nationalists like Yushchenko!
You can also say that Russian opposition is suppressed. Then I will remind you who are real opposition to Putin in Russia: 1) Communistic Party (which hates Putin for his success in social sphere, they started to loose voters) ; 2) Liberal Democratic Party (Rulled By Zhirinovsky); 2) Others: agrarians and so on
do believe that Pitun and Medvedev are worrying about Ukrainian brother nation!
You are mistaken! I am able to watch all Russians TV-channels and that's why I can see how they try to make a kind of struggle between our peoples. By the way, I live in Kiev. And I hate everything that is going on between both Kiev and Moscow now. And I rely upon EU officials to help us to put the end to this dispute!Don't be so naive - neither Putin+Medvedev nor Yushenko worry about people. Your last phrase really made me laughing.. :haha
I believe Russia is losing a lot with this behavior. There are even rumors that they don't have anymore gas and thats why they do not care.[/quote]
Do YOU seriously believe this? ))
russian999 Wrote:I want to ask my europeans and ukraines frends to comment recent gas tensions between Russia and Ukraine. I think, that main reason for that situation is political chaos in Ukraine. And, I think, that such irresponsible "democracy" should not be supported by West, but be punished by responsible democratic countries. What do you think about that?
Since you ask, I think that the comments you express are rather naive. It is black money from Russias Gasproms RosUrk intermediary which is fueling the corruption and undermining democratic reform in Ukraine in a vain attempt to preserve Russias image in the world as a world power. It is truly a shame that Russia does not spend more time developing its own infrastructure and society. Unfortunately, in terms of internal development, it is a 3rd world country with a meglomaniacal leader and nuclear weapons that is more interested in appearance than reality. Russia is feared, not because of its power but because of its unpredictability and brutality -as it demonstrates by letting millions of Europeans freeze.
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Quote:Ukraine wishes to become independent from Russia
It is independent! Russia just wants Ukraine to be independent in REALITY, without USA influence on politics over there. Is it not strange that USA sponsored Yushchenko's party? If you sponsor someone, so whose interests one will preserve?
Russia is the largest country if it needed Ukraine it would never let it go.
Medvedev really feel upset that US Dep. of State so called Non-governmental organizations are organizing regime changes by escalating Anti-Russian tensions in CIS states! Pity but true!
Dear sektor_Gaza, unfortunately, these are not my fanasies. Russia already blamed Ukraine in stealing gas (did you see and approvements of it by the way?) and it makes its best now to assure EU that Ukraine is guilty.
Once again, just give me your answer: if Gazprom still wants to supply gas to EU, why they refused to change the route??? Ukrainian Naftogas sent its request to change the route of gas supplying twice! So what is the reason if Gazprom is still so much interested as you said?
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Quote:I am able to watch all Russians TV-channels
aha so Crimea population must be lying when complaining on damages caused by Ukrainian nationalists?
The only way the watch Russian TV in through satellite dishes (not everyone can buy it)
sektor_Gaza Wrote:Quote:Ukraine wishes to become independent from Russia
It is independent! Russia just wants Ukraine to be independent in REALITY, without USA influence on politics over there. Is it not strange that USA sponsored Yushchenko's party? If you sponsor someone, so whose interests one will preserve?
Russia is the largest country if it needed Ukraine it would never let it go.
Medvedev really feel upset that US Dep. of State so called Non-governmental organizations are organizing regime changes by escalating Anti-Russian tensions in CIS states! Pity but true!
My dear friend! How mistaken you are thinking that Ukraine is independent and Russia wants Ukraine to be independent! And by the way, a large amount of Ukrainians do not want to be treated by Russian "kindness" any more. I am from Kiev, and I know what I'm talking about.
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SiD Wrote:And Max from your words i understood that you personally do not think that Ukrain should transit any gas through its territory right? You just pointing illigall parts and "impossible" and unsigned documents and all.
Am i right that you do not like idea of resuming gas supplies to those who needs it?
Your cast of minds reflects inborn Russian naivety which prevents Russians to achieve even modest Chinese life standards. Your humble cars are the best proof.
I think Ukraine should transit gas when it is profitable, legal and possible. But his is not a case now. No one will work at loss as Russia wants in its deep economical barbarity.
You obviously think transit of 300 millions c.m. daily is when two guys drink beer in pub and talk about chicks. However I would compare it with mega airport where all airplanes should fly strictly in time and via approved routes. Or we will get big air crash.
All gas transit should be regulated be protocols which define volumes, stations, routes etc… not to mention about customs-tariffs and prices. Gazprom avoided signing anything like that.
This logically led us to current problem. All these years gas to Moldova and Balkans was driven via traditional route and never through Sudja. Now Gazprom requires transit route Sudja-Orlovka to Moldova through internal Ukrainian GTS. This will leave three largest Ukrainian regions WITHOUT GAS!
On the other hand Naftogas proposes to drive gas to Moldova but through old approved route. Gasprom violently denies.
What kind of logic is this? Logic of mental house?
Again mentioned gas is only little part of required 300 millions c.m., it will not be sent to Slovakia, Bulgaria, Italy or Germany because they have supply through completely different routes. But these pipes are empty and no one drives gas there in Russia. That’s why Ukraine requires opening of EU transit through all 5 pipes, everywhere, into Central Europe too. Gazprom denies.
Now let’s don’t forget Ukraine signed Energy Charter of Europe unlike Russia. But there are three sides in this deal: seller, buyer and transporter. Seller and buyer got agreements but seller failed to arrange deal with transporter. Buyer and transporter are not connected legally regarding transportation. That’s why if seller fails to arrange deal and brakes terms of buyer they have to drive claims each other.
EU and Ukraine have not any agreements or obligations about transportation of Russian gas. If contracts of Gazprom fail, consumers should lay claims exactly to Gazprom, not to Ukrainian third party.
Of course we are glad to transit gas but what do we have now? There are no valid agreements, technical protocols, prices, technological gas… moreover I’m absolutely confident Russia experiences hugest lack of gas.
So say thanks to own “defective managers” first of all.
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Quote:if Gazprom still wants to supply gas to EU, why they refused to change the route???
Good question but I would re-make it like this:
Why Ukraine is asking that after Russia has re-started supplying. As the transit country they have to offer the route before re-starting began.
The answer for your question is that Russia choose that route because Ukraine cannot steal gas from it to fill its storage. You see. They disagree as it pass away from their pipe to gas storage.
Romano Prodi
Unregistered
Dear Magnus, your inferences couldn't be correct just because about one week ago Russia agreed to pay for transit more! Please, be honest posting your arguments against Russia or Ukraine.
Guys, let's be independent and do not blame both Russia or Ukraine just because you dislike these countries!
sektor_Gaza Wrote:Quote:if Gazprom still wants to supply gas to EU, why they refused to change the route???
Good question but I would re-make it like this:
Why Ukraine is asking that after Russia has re-started supplying. As the transit country they have to offer the route before re-starting began.
The answer for your question is that Russia choose that route because Ukraine cannot steal gas from it to fill its storage. You see. They disagree as it pass away from their pipe to gas storage.
You are not well-informed I guess. Ukraine defined the route they can provide gas supplying to EU. And Gazprom was informed about it. And it was initiated by Ukrainian side by the way, to provide EU countries with gas as soon as possible, although Gazprom and Naftogas still do not have any contract and discussed prices and conditions for gas transit and supplying in 2009. You blame Ukraine in stealing gas, so prove your words!
Romano Prodi
Unregistered
Max, firstly, Gazprom and Naftogaz both signed all protocols!
Secondly, we are not talking about supplying gas to Ukraine, we are talkng about supply to EU via Ukraine, it's not the same!
Max Wrote:Russia still makes all possible to not supply gas to EU. Instead of promised full restore of 300 millions of square meter a day through all 6 European pipes Russia directed 76 millions through only station Sudja. This gas was intended only for satellites as Moldova and Balkan countries. Russia still has no plans to restore supply to Central Europe.
The route Sudja-Moldova is untraditional, technologically incorrect and dangerous for Ukrainian GTS. Naftogas offered to drive gas in mentioned destination through its usual old route. Gazprom denied.
Meanwhile Russia still didn’t sign obligatory annual inter-governmental technical protocols which agree volumes, routes, stations, regimes, customs-tariffs and prices. Without these protocols Russian transit through Ukraine is illegal and technologically impossible.
Besides there is unsolved question about so called “technological” gas which is burned in compressors to drive “commercial” gas. It makes around 15% of overall flow. Ukraine should buy it on own expense but we have not contract and we have not price. Of course no one will use already bought gas from stores which is intended for out homes and industry. Gazprom should grant this gas to Ukraine however it denies.
President Yushchenko on his yesterday’s press-conference warned the price of transit for Russia MAY go up 10$.
Max, you don't realize obvious technical things. Your technical mistakes prove your ideological bias against Russia and against construction new gas route.
First, technical gas is required for "stuffing" the pipelines not for burning. And not in such huge volumes as you quote.
Second, gas flow is measured by cubic meters, not square meters.
Third, Sudja gas station have been used for gas transit for decades.
Fourth, Russia were not allowed to transfer more because of closed ukranian valves.
Stop transmitting common anti-Russian and anti-German lies of those who eager to stop building nothern pipe route through Baltic sea.
sektor_Gaza Wrote:Quote:I am able to watch all Russians TV-channels
aha so Crimea population must be lying when complaining on damages caused by Ukrainian nationalists?
The only way the watch Russian TV in through satellite dishes (not everyone can buy it)
I think all people who are from Ukraine here just LOL & smile reading that!
My recommendation: It's stupid to rely on Russian TV when it comes to anything about Ukraine! Usually they mix 10% of fact and 90% of lies.
FOR EXAMPLE: Today Russian TV shows group of members of "Vitrenko block" (who's population support is about 0.01%) with comment that gas dispute bring MASSSIVE manifestations of people in Ukraine against president Yuschenko!
FUNNY YEAH? But what people in Russia think watchin gthat? They don't know the truth!
Alas...that is about almost 90% of russian channels!
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Quote:a large amount of Ukrainians do not want to be treated by Russian "kindness" any more
Aint it sounds nationalistic?
There is no such term as Russian "kindness or anger". You see, Russians are equally suffered from Soviet Regime as all other nations of USSR. All the Modern Russia wants is limit USA influence in the world. As wherever USA picks its nose the war star.
USA orchestrated wars: Georgia against Ossetia. EU against Serbia, EU against Afganistan and Iraq. North Korea against South Korea, Vietnam.
And please do not compare modern Russia with Soviet Union and stop blaming Russia for Soviet Unions deeds. These are different countries. Bolsheviks are all criminals and Soviet regime was criminal. But Russians are free now from all this shit. As you may notice people often say that we experienced Russian influence, but in reality they faced the Stalin's (Josef Jugashvilli from Georgia) regime.
So Stalin is a Georgian so Russia must blame Georgia for millions of killed??? No i do not agree.
So most are Soviet high politicians or revolutionists were Jews . Hate then too for RED TERROR? No!!!!!!!!
So what kind of Russian "kindness" you've experienced ?
And do not forget that Nikita Khrushev and Gorbachev were Ukrainians. I do not feel frustrated of that fact.
Let's leave history in book rather than blaming for current problems each other!
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Quote:ou blame Ukraine in stealing gas, so prove your words!
Since Russia suspended supplying gas to EU, Ukraine faced problems in providing gas to citizens as gas shortages are appeared!
sektor_Gaza Wrote:Quote:a large amount of Ukrainians do not want to be treated by Russian "kindness" any more
Aint it sounds nationalistic?
There is no such term as Russian "kindness or anger". You see, Russians are equally suffered from Soviet Regime as all other nations of USSR. All the Modern Russia wants is limit USA influence in the world. As wherever USA picks its nose the war star.
USA orchestrated wars: Georgia against Ossetia. EU against Serbia, EU against Afganistan and Iraq. North Korea against South Korea, Vietnam.
And please do not compare modern Russia with Soviet Union and stop blaming Russia for Soviet Unions deeds. These are different countries. Bolsheviks are all criminals and Soviet regime was criminal. But Russians are free now from all this shit. As you may notice people often say that we experienced Russian influence, but in reality they faced the Stalin's (Josef Jugashvilli from Georgia) regime.
So Stalin is a Georgian so Russia must blame Georgia for millions of killed??? No i do not agree.
So most are Soviet high politicians or revolutionists were Jews . Hate then too for RED TERROR? No!!!!!!!!
So what kind of Russian "kindness" you've experienced ?
And do not forget that Nikita Khrushev and Gorbachev were Ukrainians. I do not feel frustrated of that fact.
Let's leave history in book rather than blaming for current problems each other!
Sorry, sorry, sorry! Saying Russian kindness I meant the regime of Putin and its kindness. Sorry!
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sad so sad when people so devided
sektor_Gaza Wrote:Quote:ou blame Ukraine in stealing gas, so prove your words!
Since Russia suspended supplying gas to EU, Ukraine faced problems in providing gas to citizens as gas shortages are appeared!
No, these are not the kind of approvments! These are just your suggestions and conclusions. I think that untill we see the official papers with exact figures, I do not think anyone has the right to blame Ukraine in gas stealing.
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Olga Wrote:sektor_Gaza Wrote:Quote:a large amount of Ukrainians do not want to be treated by Russian "kindness" any more
Aint it sounds nationalistic?
There is no such term as Russian "kindness or anger". You see, Russians are equally suffered from Soviet Regime as all other nations of USSR. All the Modern Russia wants is limit USA influence in the world. As wherever USA picks its nose the war star.
USA orchestrated wars: Georgia against Ossetia. EU against Serbia, EU against Afganistan and Iraq. North Korea against South Korea, Vietnam.
And please do not compare modern Russia with Soviet Union and stop blaming Russia for Soviet Unions deeds. These are different countries. Bolsheviks are all criminals and Soviet regime was criminal. But Russians are free now from all this shit. As you may notice people often say that we experienced Russian influence, but in reality they faced the Stalin's (Josef Jugashvilli from Georgia) regime.
So Stalin is a Georgian so Russia must blame Georgia for millions of killed??? No i do not agree.
So most are Soviet high politicians or revolutionists were Jews . Hate then too for RED TERROR? No!!!!!!!!
So what kind of Russian "kindness" you've experienced ?
And do not forget that Nikita Khrushev and Gorbachev were Ukrainians. I do not feel frustrated of that fact.
Let's leave history in book rather than blaming for current problems each other!
Sorry, sorry, sorry! Saying Russian kindness I meant the regime of Putin and its kindness. Sorry!
Please explain what Putin did to Ukraine?????????? Why you blame him? say in short?
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Guest Wrote:sektor_Gaza Wrote:Quote:ou blame Ukraine in stealing gas, so prove your words!
Since Russia suspended supplying gas to EU, Ukraine faced problems in providing gas to citizens as gas shortages are appeared!
No, these are not the kind of approvments! These are just your suggestions and conclusions. I think that untill we see the official papers with exact figures, I do not think anyone has the right to blame Ukraine in gas stealing.
I am telling you again that Russia through Gas trade gets money for budget to carry out its obligation. There is no sense in stopping gas supply. Putin is busy in solving economic problems , he needs money. If Ukraine do not wish to buy Russian gas it is okay. But Russia cannot continue supply which gets reduced after passing trough transit pipeline. Gazprom needs money as well and it does not want to gain "unreliable". Think who is benefiting again
TRUTH Wrote:sektor_Gaza Wrote:Quote:I am able to watch all Russians TV-channels
FUNNY YEAH? But what people in Russia think watchin gthat? They don't know the truth!
Alas...that is about almost 90% of russian channels!
I agree here in Russia we can not trust massmedia.
But you can not do it all over the world.
Remember the August war with Georgia?
What were all foreign channels broadcasting?
But then the world community confirmed that it was Georgia that started the war.
I think only time will show what is really going on...
In short? OK, in short words. Look, what is going on in the world now. All countries are pressed by the global financial and ecomonic crisis. And in this difficult times for all of us, Mr. Putin does his best to deep this crisis for Russian, Ukrainian and EU peoples. That's not enough? Mr. Putin's regime reminds me regime of Stalin. And if you look deeper, not just in the side of Moscow, but in the side of Russia in general, you will see that Russian people are suffering now much more than even Ukrainians. Im not against Russians, I am against the regime. I do not protect Mr. Yushenko, I do not want to consider my country as a thief or "bloody ukrainians" like I read here in this forum!
TRUTH Wrote:sektor_Gaza Wrote:Quote:I am able to watch all Russians TV-channels
aha so Crimea population must be lying when complaining on damages caused by Ukrainian nationalists?
The only way the watch Russian TV in through satellite dishes (not everyone can buy it)
I think all people who are from Ukraine here just LOL & smile reading that!
My recommendation: It's stupid to rely on Russian TV when it comes to anything about Ukraine! Usually they mix 10% of fact and 90% of lies.
FOR EXAMPLE: Today Russian TV shows group of members of "Vitrenko block" (who's population support is about 0.01%) with comment that gas dispute bring MASSSIVE manifestations of people in Ukraine against president Yuschenko!
FUNNY YEAH? But what people in Russia think watchin gthat? They don't know the truth!
Alas...that is about almost 90% of russian channels!
Do you remember what news was on EU TV in Gorgia & Russia conflict? EU TV has more thruth?
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