Russia-Ukraine gas conflict

[Max]

Have you any example of so-called repression as you stated there is "repressive political system" in Russia?
Who was repressed?

That is really amazing! Thousands of independent journalists lost jobs, many of them were killed, business people of Eltsin age were robbed and thrown off the country, political opposition is not allowed on TV, their participation in elections is in fact prohibited. No independent media, total censorship, no political opposition activities allowed. Bahmina is in prison while killer of Chechen girl Budanov is acquitted.

The changes to Constitution made Russian president a real dictator since there are not checks and balances at all. New law treats “unsanctioned meetings” as state crime and parricide. Courts are turned to old KGB 3-member commissions. Everyone who criticizes authorities may be declared an “extremist” and imprisoned.

In other words, Russia depends on the European and other countries in terms of gas supplies as much as such countries depend on Russia. Moreover, experts unanimously say this dependence will only grow in a middle and longer term as the demand for oil and gas will grow significantley despite the current crisis. They predict the oil prices to rise to at least $70 as early as this coming fall.

It’s strange to read it. Obviously you have not access to Western TV and newspapers or you think I have not. Everyone is talking about complete diversification from Russian gas. EU already initiates building of Nabucco and it will be built during few years.

As about Ukraine we force own producing on shelf where we have lots of gas and oil. I repeated many times transit of Russian gas is not so profitable for us so I predict few years later we can find better suppliers somewhere in Caspian pool. It’s good opportunity to stop this doubtful gas export of Russia at all.

Max, as you know Brzezinski, is a child of the cold war era (so is Putin and many of Russia and Ukraines current elite, and me too, for that matter.) Brzezinski has extreme views and although he has been accurate on many ocassions, I would prefer to believe that despite the postings from Moscal, sektor_Gaza et al, there is an emerging consciousness among the emerging Russian middleclass that Russia must change both its perceptions about the world, and about itself in order to be successful in the post soviet world.

Yes, Brzezinski is controversial thinker and sometimes he is on extreme positions. However, I share his vision on Putin when he is compared not with old hackneyed communism idealist but with pompous ultra-right dictators of past.

“Mr. Putin's regime in many ways is similar to Mussolini's Fascism. Il Duce made "the trains run on time." He centralized political power in the name of chauvinism. He imposed political controls over the economy without nationalizing it or destroying the economic oligarchs and their mafias. The Fascist regime evoked national greatness, discipline, and exalted myths of an allegedly glorious past. Similarly, Mr. Putin is trying to blend the traditions of the Cheka (Lenin's Gestapo, where his own grandfather started his career), with Stalin's wartime leadership, with Russian Orthodoxy's claims to the status of the Third Rome, with Slavophile dreams of a single large Slavic state ruled from the Kremlin.”

[BK]

Although Putin expressed sympathy for the European countries whose people were suffering, he did not apologise or accept any responsibility. In fact, Putin purportedly accused Europe and the EU in particular of being responsible because the EU did not doing enough to pressure Ukraine. Putins statements at the conference were not understood by the EU as an apology, instead, they added insult to injury. Maybe Putin did not want to insult the Europeans more, Но факт есть факт.

I just imagine if a man occused of murder (or other crime) would PUBLICLY make his appologies for what he done to the other side ... it would just give ground to all russophobic people to say " what you expected that are Russians they always quilty they even admited it". AND it would mean that he lied all this time to the russian people, whanever you think our democracy is he is not idiot to make such mistake (even if he was quilty). So exprassing sympathy given the situetion is enough i think.

[color=#0000BF I am not suggesting that Putin humilate himself!! There are many different ways to say you are sorry without saying that you are guilty (-ask any married person!) Think about this scenario: You are standing in the Metro with Vlad, a person you do a lot of business with. Someone pushes you and you instinctively grab Vlad so that you don't fall. Unfortunately, this makes Vlad fall . As a result Vlad is bruised and his very expensive cellphone is broken. Is Vlad responsible because he was standing there beside you? Is Vlad responsible because he didn't stop the other person from pushing you? Should you apologise to Vlad for grabbing him, even though it was a reflex? Should you offer to fix or replace Vlads broken cellphone? Why or why not?[/color]

.... personaly i think ALL involved(EU included and parhaps some other countrys if conspirasy thoerys are true) have thier own share of blame ... Perhaps I am suffering from some kind of cultural myopia but I cannot see how anyone can blame the EU for Russias decision to turn off ALL of the gas to Europe or for Russias decision not to keep its subsequent agreement with the EU to turn on ALL the gas again when the Monitors were in place. As you probably know, the EU is REALLY angry about this.

And BK from your posts i have feeling that you think that US is acting in EU interests ALWAYS(parhaps you think that EU and US have no difference in national interests).I personally do not think so and EU defenetly need some independance from US but that is my opinion. ("no one would defend your interests as fierce as thier own"). If you have carefully read my postings on this and other sites you should know that I have no interest in defending the U.S. and especially not its foreign policy. And I happily support Parties Region over Yushenko

Thank you for your open, honest and civil comments.

[BK]

As for me, beauty is not the main characteristic of Mrs. Timoshenko, although she is beautiful of course But more than this, she is smart, tolerant, diplomatic and good politican as for me...and as far as I can see the present situation in Ukraine, she is the only one of our goverment who is more or less worried about Ukraine. And I respect her for this uper And my vote will be for her again! I do not like policy of Yuschenko as well and when we had Orange revolution here, most of people went to Maidan for Yulia, but not for Yuschenko! And my strong opinion is that Yuschenko would never be elected/won if Yulia didn't support him at that time.

She is smart, she is determined and hard working, she is demanding, she speaks her mind, she is happy with the money she has and not interested in stealing more and she clearly and dearly loves Ukraine... but I do not know if I can agree that she is tolerant and diplomatic. One incident stands out.

The night before the last election Ms. Timoshenko went on television and told people that they should not waste their vote on the little parties because there were only three parties who counted, her party, Yushenko's party and "UNFORTUNATELY" Parties Region. нажаль! that was an incredibly stupid thing to say! Elected officials, especially the President and the Prime Minister represent ALL of the people --even the people they do not agree with or who did not vote for them. Millions of Ukrainians voted and will vote again for Parties Region and their interests and beliefs MUST be considered when setting national policy and making laws which affect ALL of us --not just the people who voted for the winner. I hope that the Prime Minister does not repeat the same mistake again.

As for Parties Region, they have changed a lot in the last few years. For one, they are speaking much more in Ukrainian. Their party has shown more discipline --they even made a former minister apologise for insulting a reporter and then dropped him from the list. They supported the WTO and are also now more pro EU. On NATO, they recommend a national debate and referendum--which makes sense. I disagree with other parts of their platform --one minor example, for various reasons I won't discuss here, I think Parties Region should put the question of making Russian an official language away for another twenty years. In any case, one thing that almost ALL Ukrainians are agreed on --Yushenko, нажаль, has squandered whatever chances he had to improve Ukraine. No one knows who he represents anymore but he is clearly no longer speaks for the Ukrainian people.

[muschamp]

Ukrainian

I stole from my mother's bag when I was 12 years old, and never forgot it, are you saying that you have never stolen anything in your life.

In this country we are members of the EU, but the opposition party doesn't want to be. I am in favor of membership of EU, because I like the Idea of corporation with other country's. The battle about membership is not over yet.

What does membership of the EU mean to you. I can tell you what it will mean to you myself. Last week a friend informed me that he hired some Russians welders to work in his boat yard repairing his boats, he then said that he paid them 60% less than what he would pay other workers to do the same job, he did this because they are just emigrants and desperate, these men have families too. Their are 2000 Polish people living on the streets in the middle of winter in my City. This was on the News broadcast on TV several times, they have also being caught breaking into hospitals to steel Alcohol that people use to wash their hands with. The lowest wage that you can legally pay any one in this country is being cut in half when they know you are an emigrant. If you are looking for an easy life in the EU you should think it over.

I understand that Ukraine now has 10 year contract with Gasprom, If you say that is good then it is good, I wouldn't have had one for more than 3 years myself, then get another one, pressure from your friends in the EU. If you hate Russians for trying to do business to the best of their ability what will you think of us when you finally get your wish, we exploit emigrants no matter where they are from. Do not blame your hard life on the Russians and the past, I was alive then. It was the west that made your life hard. We deliberately stopped the Russians from making any progress because we didn't like their politics that we actually invented.

Now we are going back to it slowly it was all just a lot of rubbish. If you think that the Russians are spreading lies about Ukraine and you don't like it, all you have to do is let them have your transit pipes for free, then they will stop it. If you cant do that then start spreading lies of your own about them. Don't just sit in a chair and hate, that wont pay any bill's, that is the only thing that matters in life. I don't think you can cope with vicious people like us

It does not matter your age, it is how you feel inside which makes people want to retire. Police and government workers are forced to in this country, I don't intend to. Life is never easy no matter where you are, it is just different.

[Kusnetsov]

To BK
Questions like this, I'm sure, have always been remaining unanswered. It's not only about Russia and Ukraine here and now, 'tis almost about any country of the world, here and now, there and then. Too many questions, even more terrifying, have remained witout answers. A usual case.

I am old enough to understand and appreciate the accuracy of your remark and the cynicism that such experience can bring. But in this case, here and now, no answer to the question of accepting responsiblity and compensation Europe IS an answer that will surely have disastrous effects for Russia and Ukraine in the foreseeable future.

There are many countries who, for philosophical, historical, economic or political reasons, want to contain or limit the growth of Russian influence in the world. The U.S. is undeniably among those countries (although it methods are more subtle that the crass conspiracy theores claimed here.) The importance that the U.S. gives to containing Russia is underscored by Obama s first speech as President during which he said, "each day brings further evidence that the ways we use energy strengthen our adversaries..." It does not take a rocket scientist to understand that this is a reference to the gas-cut off and Russia. Russia has given ITs competitors and adversaries a powerful weapon that will be used against it again and again in Europe. The only way to effectively neutralise this weapon is for Russia to make significant conciliatory gestures to Europe. For Europe, the crisis may be over. For Russia, it has just begun.

The cinicism is not mine. This cinicism belongs to the world politics. Especially, to the western one. And it's not necessary to be a professional historian to understand it. And I just state the fact.
From the point of of view of history (in its time progress) the main mistake of Russia is that it has just constantly been reacting on the agression of the western countries mostly, constantly answering those cinical defiances. And Europe and the USA were always talking of human rights and freedom while destroying whole countries. So the question is: do you have any right to talk about responsibility for Russia and Ukraine when you consider yourself not responsible for the much more destructive activity in the world.

... Украинский президент - беда для всех.

+=======

Would you mind to be more specific? I mean - can you bring facts and evidences? Please develop and prove your statement.

I live in Ukraine and I claim: The Ukrainian president is a catastrophy for all, is a devastation for all, especially for those who live in Ukraine. It is obvious, clear and transparent. You want facts and evidences, watch the news.

[Moskal]

To BK:

To answer your personal question, I am retired from a rather interesting career during which I have done many things, none of them particularly notable.

You are being mysterious…

I am much less of an agent provocateur than those who blame the problems on one country or the other or on a conspiracy involving yet other countries.

Yeah, probably you’re right. It’s western media from all major countries that are. Need proof? Here you go: “L'Europe l'a donc redécouvert avec la crise qui vient de s'achever : la Russie peut, du jour au lendemain, lui couper le gaz - un gaz qui représente plus du tiers de ses approvisionnements. » - that’s the quote from French Les Echos. Not even mentioning the Ukraine – quite typical. There are tons of articles like that deliberately distorting info, hiding facts and doing anything to justify the superior interests of the “western civilization”. You may find loads of them on the inosmi.ru website. Any Russian who used to be supporting the West after a month of reading inosmi articles (and most of them are from “reputable” newspapers) begins hating it.
Another example of spin: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/21/kremlin-russia-human-rights">http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ja ... man-rights</a><!-- m -->
From the Guardian this time (supposedly reputable and leftist). With no mentioning that Markelov was involved in dodgy property cases, that this double murder is widely covered by TV and papers and the police are trying hard to find the killer.

In terms of the bilateral dispute between Russia and Ukraine, I have argued that both sides are wrong but from a purely legal perspective, I would favor the Ukrainian side.

Why? My answer is Russia and Russians are always to blame in your eyes. Frankly, I find it difficult to imagine a lawyer justifying theft, but the law is different depending on who it should be applied, isn’t it? “All animals are equal, but some are more equal”, am I right quoting your classic?

In terms of the dispute between Russia and Europe, I have argued here that, whatever blame Ukraine might have, Russia committed the more grievious wrong by shutting off the gas.

Exactly!! No particular proof, just you think so and that’s it! That’s enough!

My concrete reasons for these positions have been stated again and again.

And again and again you were saying that Europe put the main blame on Russia. But Michael Stott of Reuters’ thinks differently: “UKRAINE's reputation with the European Union has taken a big hit. Kiev aspires longer term to membership of the Union but the way it brawled with Russia over gas prices, apparently oblivious of the consequences for energy supplies to its neighbours, will not have won it any friends further west.” And later: “Russian gas giant GAZPROM will earn billions of dollars of extra revenue in coming years, more than making up for what it lost at the start of this year.”
And slightly opposite opinion about Russia’s role and potential outcome for Russia:
RUSSIA has seen its reputation as a reliable energy supplier severely dented by the episode. But the Kremlin is likely to have calculated that with Europe dependent for years to come on its gas and unable to find alternatives quickly, it can afford to temporarily upset some European nations in the hope of gaining higher long-term prices for its gas, a key export. And later: “Russian gas giant GAZPROM will earn billions of dollars of extra revenue in coming years, more than making up for what it lost at the start of this year.”
And another quote: “Bloomberg piece noting that the deal let Putin portray himself as a strong leader at a time of economic turmoil and boosted Tymoshenko over Yushchenko. “He has won his game of chicken with Ukraine,” Chris Weafer, chief strategist at UralSib, was quoted as saying.”

My arguments are based upon facts which are accepted as true by BOTH sides.

Like what? I said that Russia did not drop the debt claims. You referred to some source without specifying and said that Russia would forgive the Ukraine. Remember? But here are:
“Reuters and Agence France Presse reported that A. Medvedev said Gazprom has resolved all debt issues with Ukraine. "All the debt issues concerning our relationship have been resolved," Medvedev told a news conference. He added that the company reserved the right to claim compensation for sustained losses.”

In terms of the other underlying issue being debated here, namely, challenges to the existance and future of Ukraine, I side with Ukraine. It is, after all, where I live.

And Russians are not allowed to “side with Russia” according to you, are they? The last sentence explains much if not all of you.
However, the Ukraine will physically fall apart regardless of what you think or wish. Like Yugoslavia did, like Georgia. There are many reasons for that. 1. The country is arena for battle of bigger powers like Russia and US and even EU to some degree. 2. The Ukraine is ethnically, religiously and linguistically heterogeneous and population there lives compactly where they have originally lived. 3. Imbecile politic inside the country in terms of human rights (language, voting, etc.), so that the driving forces are centrifugal to ultimately devour the Ukraine into historically homogeneous areas, such as Crimea, Malorossia, Western Ukraine and Central Ukraine. The latter may be split between the other three.

To wrap up professor, you consistently avoid any “inconveniences” for yourself in discussion. For instance, you wrote that rouble fell against dollar and grivna. The latter was at minimum incorrect, so to speak. And when I asked you about pound to dollar rate (pound fell against dollar approx. equally as rouble – the exchange rate rouble/pound remained unchanged, in fact rouble even slightly strengthened) you just simply dropped the sublect.

In sum, when it comes to rational things and a bit broader thinking than usual western clichés on “human rights”, “developed/underdeveloped economies”, “civilized/uncivilized countries” you seem to go to the shadow, pretending not to notice my argument.

[Kusnetsov]

Hello, I'm a Romanian student. Yesterday night was very cold in my house because gas pressure was very low and the outside temperature was about -20 degrees Celsius. Romania receives less 30% gas from Russians. Why? Because Ukrainians steals gas paid by Europeans because they didn't agree with Russians. Do you consider this state act as a terrorist state? Who is actually Ukraine and what is the deal with European Union? :quoi

Dear marcel dima,
Of course, Ukraine is not a terrorist state. Actually, like anywhere else, it is ruled by authorities embodied in too-law-quality politicians and their, in most cases, criminal friends. I do believe Ukrainian authorities stole Russian gas. Why do I believe in it? I belive in it because The Ukrainian politicians (and their friends) like stealing. Theyr're eager to steal anything that can be stolen. That is why they do it. I don't think it makes the Ukrainian politicians unique. Nevertheless, stealing makes The Ukrainian politicians calm and kind. That''s why Ukraine is a very peaceful state.
P.S. I forgot to tell you about Ukrainian common peopple. Ukraine is a multy-national country (like any country in the world). There are Ukrainians, Russians, Belorussians and so on live in it. The most widespread languages being spoken are Ukrainian and Russian. This fact, plus a common history, is the reason why Ukrainians (in Ukraine) and Russians (in Russia) remain wise, unlike some certain politicians of these two countries, and friendly to each other. They're still speaking common language.

[Guest]

to BK: You know, I've been observing this forum and most of the topics here for the last days and your comments are definitely one of the most clearable, reasonable, patient and my deepest respect for you! uper
Re your above comments on Mrs. Timoshenko. Yes, you are right. Sometimes she looks like she is anxious to make a decision and it it a mistake of her, because even in case the decision is right, she is surronded by the ones, who are waiting for her to be mistaken and use every possible opportunity to discredit her reputation and give a wrong sense for her actions. Of course she makes mistakes, maybe like everyone does. She is not perfect or ideal...but, at the present, she is the only one who is worried about Ukraine and Ukrainians. Sometimes I think and ask myself: how strong should be a person to rule the country when it is being destroyed and torned by powerful corrupted politicans! How smart and tolerant (yes, she is tolerant comparing to ordinary people) she must be. Who else was so strong enough to protect the country? to follow Ukraine demands? to solve such an important dispute with a great success and result and did not let anyone to put Ukrainians on their knees? Who else? And don't forget - she is a WOMAN and not man. And people went to Majdan because SHE called them. And most Ukrainians still believe her. No doubt, she's unique as a woman and as a politican as well. It's my opinion.

[BK]

Moskal, the media is full of conflicting reports and opinions about what, why and who caused the gas crisis as well as about the terms of the new contract, and about what the crisis means for the future. LeMonde has a somewhat dfferent take than Les Echos, the AP from Reuters, the IHT from the FT or NYT, etc., etc. And within each of these newspapers you will find conflicting reports, opinions and editorials. Every report has some spin which reflects the assumptions, preconceptions and prejudices of the reporter. You work in public relations so you should know this better than most people. Until we read the contract, all we can say for sure is that each side apparently got something that they really wanted --so each side can claim that they "won." Which, of course, is exactly what they are both doing. So forget the new contract. It is not really worth further discussion, at least not here, not now and not by me.

You ask me why I favor the Ukrainian side from a purely legal perspective. Please pay attention to the fact that I used the word favor meaning prefer. Not, as you claim because I am opposed to Russia but because I think Russia has the weakest legal position based on the uncontested facts that are available --it does not mean that that Ukraine is absolutely right, simply that it has a better legal defense against European claims for damages than Russia does. It is also important to stress that I was not referring to the pricing disputes between Russia and Ukraine but potential lawsuits, between Ukraine and Europe, between Europe and Russia and between Russia and Ukraine based on European claims against Russia.

I do not know how much law you or other readers know so I will try to keep it as simple as possible. My opinion is based on the law and available uncontested facts, it could change if new uncontested facts are revealed. No competent lawyer ever argues that his is the only right answer to a legal question. Thats what we have courts and tribunals and arbitrators and judges. If you want another opinion, speak to another lawyer. For now here are thereasons why I would prefer to represent the other side in any dispute with Russia arising out of the recent gas crisis:

EUROPE vs. UKRAINE European countries cannot sue Ukraine for breach of contract because there are no transit contracts between any European Country and Ukraine. The legal basis for a European claim against Ukraine is through the Energy Charter Treaty which Ukraine has ratified. The Treaty prohibits a transit country from reducing of cutting off the transit of gas through its territory. But the treaty does not require a transit country to pay for the cost of transit or to undertake any measures which would threaten its own energy resouces or endanger its own people. Ukraine can raise all three arguments but the first one is enough. Europe has no basis for expecting or requiring Ukraine to provide transit gas from its own supplies. It is true that the amount of Gas that Europe received from 1 Jan to 7 Jan was reduced by the amount of gas that Ukraine was allegedly using for transit. But, again, Europe had no legal right to expect or demand that Ukraine provide transit gas from its own (Ukrainian) resources. And Ukraine did not violate the treaty by shutting-off gas to Europe; Europe continued to receive gas until Russia cut off [u]all gas to Ukraine[/u]. There may be some questions about the period when the monitors were in place and partial gas was restored but I do not know enough about the details of those agreements and the facts are hotly contested. In any case, the bottom line is that Europe will have a very difficult time proving that Ukraine violated the treaty. No violation, no damages (money). It's that simple.

EUROPE V RUSSIA Russia was an original signatory of the ECT but has not formally ratified it and so the Treaty is not binding. Russia is, however, bound by numerous gas contracts under which Russia is obligated to deliver specific amounts of gas to specific locations in Europe. This is crucial. Russias legal responsibilty for delivering gas did not end at its border with Ukraine but at receiving and distribution points located in the EU itself . Russia remained fully responsiblity for arranging the transit of gas from its territory to those distribution points. Although Europe complained about the reduction in supplies following the shut-off of Ukrainian gas supplies, it stayed out of the dispute. Since Ukraine has not signed any of the gas supply or transit contracts between Russia and European countries ,it cannot be legally bound by anything in those contracts. This is not my opinion, it is a matter of established law. For this and other reasons Europe rightly treated the dispute between Russia and Ukraine as a purely bilateral one --and separate from Russian obligations to supply Europe with gas. Russia cannot therefore use its dispute with Ukraine as a shield against European claims or to support its claim of force majeur. Russia breached the contract when it shut off all gas shipments through Ukraine. For reasons expressed below, I do not think that force majeur is an effective legal defense for this decision. All Russia can do it try to recover whatever it might have to pay to Europe from Ukraine. Which brings us to the last case.

RUSSIA v. UKRAINE The question of the missing/transit gas is irrelevant here because Ukraine publicly admitted that it was using gas from Russia to transport the rest of the gas to Europe AND that it would pay for or replace it once a price had been agreed upon. It is also arguable that Russia did not have a valid contract for transit following the shut-of gas of Ukrainian gas supplies, but lets leave these aside. The real question is whether Ukraine will have to reimburse Russia for any damages that Russia might have to pay to Europe for breaching contracts. The answer is, probably not. Under international law, no one can be held liable for damages that reasonably could have been avoided. (look up mitigation and contracts on the internet for more information) This priniciple applies even if Ukraine breached its transit contract and was stealing some gas. Each party to a dispute has a legal duty to minimize the amount of losses caused by and to the other party. Russia could have done this in one of two obvious ways. First, it could have increased the gas supply to ensure that Europe received the full amount due or (2) it could have continued to ship the same amount of gas and, in either case, held Ukraine liable for whatever gas was not delivered. Since the cost of the transit gas could be offset by transit fees, Russia would not really have been risking anything. Instead, Russia shut off the gas completely which actually increased, not decreased, everyones financial damages. And Russia failed to turn on the gas in full even when monitors were in place. Why did Russia shut off all the gas? From a purely legal perspective I don't care and it does not matter because there were obvious alternatives that would have reduced everyones damages. Thats the legal crux. The people who make a decision are responsible for the costs and risks of that decision. Russia decided to shut off the gas to Europe. It now has to bear the further costs of that decision, if any.

And THAT, for hopefully the last time, is why I would PREFER, from a purely legal perspective, to represent Ukraine or Europe. Were I hired to represent Russia, you can be sure that I would do my best to find the best possible legal arguments in Russias favor. But since NO ONE is paying me, I have the luxery of giving my personal legal opinion.

Moskal Writes: the Ukraine will physically fall apart regardless of what you think or wish. Like Yugoslavia did, like Georgia. There are many reasons for that. 1. The country is arena for battle of bigger powers like Russia and US and even EU to some degree. 2. The Ukraine is ethnically, religiously and linguistically heterogeneous and population there lives compactly where they have originally lived. 3. Imbecile politic inside the country in terms of human rights (language, voting, etc.), so that the driving forces are centrifugal to ultimately devour the Ukraine into historically homogeneous areas, such as Crimea, Malorossia, Western Ukraine and Central Ukraine. The latter may be split between the other three.

Such predictions belong to the realm of astrologers, crystal ball readers, crackpot and crackheads. I leave you to enjoy their company. All that I can say with a fair degree of certaintly is that the current gas crisis may be ending for Europe but it has just started for Russia. I truly wish you well Tovarisch!

[Max]

Heh, this guy admitted he is paid by Gazprom… I’m curious how much he get for single post likes this one and is there any report about work made?

It’s not secret Gazprom is involved in massive corruption inside EU and Gerhard Schroeder is the best example. Yes some folks are getting money openly, some secretly. But you know what?

People who criticize this KGB ruled “political weapon” do it sincerely and free of charge, because they realize the danger it makes for civilized world. And people who praise this infarct company do it for money… al this love is bought like somewhere in Amsterdam, on the street of red lights.

When love is bough there different word which defines such trade. And this is a case.

We never will understand why this gas war had happened if we will see only on strict numbers of commercial contracts… this everything wasn’t about contracts and numbers at all.

I believe in causal line Chechnya – Georgia - Ukraine - Big Freeze in Europe. These are links of one chain. This everything is about hostility, tyranny and pathologic will to world domination.

Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine, freezing Europe… who’s next, what’s next?

[TARAN]

To BK

I live in Ukraine and I claim: The Ukrainian president is a catastrophy for all, is a devastation for all, especially for those who live in Ukraine. It is obvious, clear and transparent. You want facts and evidences, watch the news.

So your statment based on news given in massmedia? Do you belive them?http://www.eu-forums.com/posting.php?mode=quote&f=2&sid=0e71d03769d13a144ce76d7e18783c44&t=2451&p=16962#

[SiD]

BK you gave interesting anologie about apologies but it has flaws. 1 I warned Vlad about danger and asked him to look out but he complietly ignored me.2 Person who pushed me isnt someone it is well known to both of us more than that he wants to be Vlads friend. 3 Following it why would Vlad turn his frustration on me if he knows who pushed me? I could appologies but i would expect Vlad to turn his anger and any demands about his broken cellphone to person who pushed me not on me.

You know we can blame EU becouse they done nothing to affect Ushenko. We know that Russia hasnt much leverage on him but EU does and they could avoid truble if they heeded warnings. So EU in thier convinient apathy have some share of blame.

Interesting that before that our government wanted to turn attention on georgian problem long before it turned hot, no one heeded like now. Disturbing is that Putin constantly warns about anti missile defense in Europe. Hope some solution would be found in the end becouse i personally cant predict results of such warnings turn out to be real problem.

BTW you gave interesting post about how you see it from position of law. But you arent correct Russia is not on the other planet and even not on other continent so whanewer thing you think started for Russia it can in the end have much influence on its nighbors and on Europe.

[BK]

BK you gave interesting anologie about apologies but it has flaws. 1 I warned Vlad about danger and asked him to look out but he complietly ignored me.2 Person who pushed me isnt someone it is well known to both of us more than that he wants to be Vlads friend. 3 Following it why would Vlad turn his frustration on me if he knows who pushed me? I could appologies but i would expect Vlad to turn his anger and any demands about his broken cellphone to person who pushed me not on me.

Yes, I know the analogy can be improved, for example, a closer analogy might be that you are having an argument with your wife who pushes you and then you grab a business Vlad who just happens to be standing there. In any case, from a legal point of view you are simply wrong. Vlad does not have to look out for your safety, even if you ask him to unless you have some special agreement, which you don't (Russia did not ratify the Energy Charter Treaty). Since you are the one who grabbed Vlad to protect yourself, and it is you who made him fall then you are legally responsible for his broken cellphone. You could then sue the person who pushed you but that is a different issue. Like it or not, that is the law.

You know we can blame EU becouse they done nothing to affect Ushenko. We know that Russia hasnt much leverage on him but EU does and they could avoid truble if they heeded warnings. So EU in thier convinient apathy have some share of blame.

I am really surprised at this statement. Since when is the EU required to take sides in disputes between Russia and its close neighbors? Are you saying that Russia had a right to try to FORCE Europe into helping Russia in its negotiations with Ukraine, or even to PUNISH Europe because it stayed neutral? Putin/Russia criticised Europe for treating Russia and Ukraine equally, so perhaps that IS what you/Russia thinks. All I can tell you is that that position contradicts international law as well as Russias claim to a private sphere of influence....

Interesting that before that our government wanted to turn attention on georgian problem long before it turned hot, no one heeded like now. Disturbing is that Putin constantly warns about anti missile defense in Europe. Hope some solution would be found in the end becouse i personally cant predict results of such warnings turn out to be real problem.

The President of Georgia thinks that he is on a mission from God. I do not support him but I do think that Russia exploited the situation. My personal prediction is that the missle shield will not be installed or, it is installed, it will include Russian oversight/monitors. And thats all I intend to say on these topics in this forum.

BTW you gave interesting post about how you see it from position of law. But you arent correct Russia is not on the other planet and even not on other continent so whanewer thing you think started for Russia it can in the end have much influence on its nighbors and on Europe.

I am not sure what you are referring to. Russia has a great influence on world affairs. I simply believe that it has made a serious error in this crisis; it has weakened its friendships and made its adversaries stronger. My suggestion (that Russia offer some kind of compensation to Europe) would improve Russias damaged relationships with the EU and disarm its adversaries who oppose that relationship.

[BK]

To BK

I live in Ukraine and I claim: The Ukrainian president is a catastrophy for all, is a devastation for all, especially for those who live in Ukraine. It is obvious, clear and transparent. You want facts and evidences, watch the news.

So your statment based on news given in massmedia? Do you belive them?http://www.eu-forums.com/posting.php?mode=quote&f=2&sid=0e71d03769d13a144ce76d7e18783c44&t=2451&p=16962#[/quote]


I also live in Ukraine. I am a former Yushenko supporter. He has lost my support based on the actions of his party in the Parliament and his televised public statements and those of his close associates. And, from what I understand, the U.S. no longer has any confidence in him. (Which means that the poor President of the US will be calling Putin for advice on how to handle Julia T!)

[Kusnetsov]

So your statment based on news given in massmedia? Do you belive them?http://www.eu-forums.com/posting.php?mode=quote&f=2&sid=0e71d03769d13a144ce76d7e18783c44&t=2451&p=16962#

I wrote about news for I don't know whether you live in Ukraine. And to realize what Yuschenko politics is you just need to wake up in the morning and go outdoors. In the end I do it every day.

[Max]

(Which means that the poor President of the US will be calling Putin for advice on how to handle Julia T!)

BK, unlike in Russia we have right to criticize own not so perfect President and finally that were us who elected him, right?

Julia with her letters of Reagan and concept of containing the Russia is the same sweet piece for Washington as Victor.

And as about Barrack Obama in fact he is taught as a politician by mentioned before a child of cold war. I really do not believe in his friendship to Russia which is so mistakably expected. Vice versa, I expect his bigger loyalty to China and pressure on Russia. Don’t forger Soviet Union dissolved exactly at Clinton’s age.

The only thing that differs democrats and republicans is their methods but not aims.

[SiD]

[
Yes, I know the analogy can be improved, for example, a closer analogy might be that you are having an argument with your wife who pushes you and then you grab a business Vlad who just happens to be standing there. In any case, from a legal point of view you are simply wrong. Vlad does not have to look out for your safety, even if you ask him to unless you have some special agreement, which you don't (Russia did not ratify the Energy Charter Treaty). Since you are the one who grabbed Vlad to protect yourself, and it is you who made him fall then you are legally responsible for his broken cellphone. You could then sue the person who pushed you but that is a different issue. Like it or not, that is the law.

We can put analogies all day but anyway will have more than 1 person to blame at least and it is easier for our Vlad to held person who pushed me responsible and more just, in other case this Vlad of your is really silly and fairless person to say the least. there is law but there is justice and simple morality, in the end laws are created by people and can be changed if thier overall moral and humane level improves (like forbiding death sentence, public exicutions and such).

I am really surprised at this statement. Since when is the EU required to take sides in disputes between Russia and its close neighbors? Are you saying that Russia had a right to try to FORCE Europe into helping Russia in its negotiations with Ukraine, or even to PUNISH Europe because it stayed neutral? Putin/Russia criticised Europe for treating Russia and Ukraine equally, so perhaps that IS what you/Russia thinks. All I can tell you is that that position contradicts international law as well as Russias claim to a private sphere of influence....

You missunderstood. Russia has right to WARN Europe about troubles comming thier way. After all you rightly pointed that Europe became victim, why they havent protected themselves? I imagine market prices are fine by Europe for Ukraine so they could help to make Ushenko less bold and more reasanable. Parhaps there is no law that bounds Europe to defend itself from problems that could be avoided or something but it is right thing to do and could spare many countries from gas shortages.


I am not sure what you are referring to. Russia has a great influence on world affairs. I simply believe that it has made a serious error in this crisis; it has weakened its friendships and made its adversaries stronger. My suggestion (that Russia offer some kind of compensation to Europe) would improve Russias damaged relationships with the EU and disarm its adversaries who oppose that relationship.

I just pointed that crisises or troubles in Russia or its nighboring states usualy become some European concern in the end.
About what friendships you talking? they arent much in Europe to be honest and after all they act in thier own interests so it is like mutual beneficial relationship not real frienship, friends are helping you if you are in trouble not abandon you with first sign of problems and surely do not act on the side of your "adversaries".
Can you imagine friend that always stands against you and best he can do not strongly and oppenly condamn you becouse you are needed to him?

[BK]

SiD: Forget who or what is to blame, or what you think is fair or unfair, or who you think is right or wrong; it is a question of who is legally responsible for the damages. Power means responsiblity. Russia exercised its power by shutting of the gas supply. Russia is therefore responsible for the results (12 deaths and millions of millions of euros in European losses.) If Russia fails to recognise this and deal with it appropriately you can be sure that the new pipelines Russia wants will NOT be built and that Europe WILL reduce its current dependency. There is little more to say, all that is left is to wait and see.

[SiD]

There is little more to say, all that is left is to wait and see.

Fully agree all arguments were already posted by different previus autors from both sides so we just wait and see.
I disagree with your vision of who is responsible for demage but it will just echo posts of previus autors.

[Guest]

So your statment based on news given in massmedia? Do you belive them?


I wrote about news for I don't know whether you live in Ukraine. And to realize what Yuschenko politics is you just need to wake up in the morning and go outdoors. In the end I do it every day.

Yes, I did as you advised and went outdoors. And what I saw: Region Party ARE RULLING all around.

[Kusnetsov]

So your statment based on news given in massmedia? Do you belive them?


I wrote about news for I don't know whether you live in Ukraine. And to realize what Yuschenko politics is you just need to wake up in the morning and go outdoors. In the end I do it every day.

Yes, I did as you advised and went outdoors. And what I saw: Region Party ARE RULLING all around.

Do you live in Ukraine that is Ukraine or somewhere else? Wake up.

[EUsaysFU]

...You know we can blame EU becouse they done nothing to affect Ushenko. We know that Russia hasnt much leverage on him but EU does and they could avoid truble if they heeded warnings. So EU in thier convinient apathy have some share of blame.
.

Are you a total idiot? You warned us about Ukraine --not about YOU! Look, you (Russia) has a fight with Ukraine, it ain't our f*cking business in Europe. Did you ask us to help you in Georgia? Nope. You did what you had to do and told us to keep our nose out. Ukraine was YOUR problem. But when you shut off our gas, you made it our problem. That was a biiiiigggg mistake! Cause now we am going to smile at you and pretend everything is almost normal, but only because we still need your gas --but all the time we are smiling we are gonna be making plans and building different pipelines to get energy from somewhere else as soon as possible --and its gonna be a lot sooner than you think. So Russia had better be nice to Ukraine because in two to three years Ukraine will be the only real customer you have left --and even Ukraine won't need your f*cking gas because we will sell it to her just to f*ck you the way you just f*cked us. Take away your gas and you got shit. Learn to eat it because pretty soon we ain't selling you anymore food either.

[Guest]

...You know we can blame EU becouse they done nothing to affect Ushenko. We know that Russia hasnt much leverage on him but EU does and they could avoid truble if they heeded warnings. So EU in thier convinient apathy have some share of blame.
.

Are you a total idiot? You warned us about Ukraine --not about YOU! Look, you (Russia) has a fight with Ukraine, it ain't our f*cking business in Europe. Did you ask us to help you in Georgia? Nope. You did what you had to do and told us to keep our nose out. Ukraine was YOUR problem. But when you shut off our gas, you made it our problem. That was a biiiiigggg mistake! Cause now we am going to smile at you and pretend everything is almost normal, but only because we still need your gas --but all the time we are smiling we are gonna be making plans and building different pipelines to get energy from somewhere else as soon as possible --and its gonna be a lot sooner than you think. So Russia had better be nice to Ukraine because in two to three years Ukraine will be the only real customer you have left --and even Ukraine won't need your f*cking gas because we will sell it to her just to f*ck you the way you just f*cked us. Take away your gas and you got shit. Learn to eat it because pretty soon we ain't selling you anymore food either.

[Guest]

ou blame Ukraine in stealing gas, so prove your words!

Since Russia suspended supplying gas to EU, Ukraine faced problems in providing gas to citizens as gas shortages are appeared!

That is just a lie. You are a lier.Ukraine had enough gas untill sprin. As everybody knows now Ukarine was not stilling gas.If you can't prove it than just stop lying.

[Guest]

It's your choice! And maybe you have a strong reason for it!
But I live in Kiev and I have nothing to respect Putin for! But a lot of reasons not to respect his policy! And it is my choice!

Same here. Why are we even talking about Putin? he is not the president. Oh yah Medvedev is just pupet a clown , not real president. he is just for "looks"