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Belarus and EU
#1
All these heated debates about human rights, legality and so on appear to mean nothing at all. I look at what Sweden is doing and wonder how we can tolerate this here in Europe. This Eastern Partnership that Sweden so actively promotes is nothing but an attempt to let, say, Byelorussia with its dictator Lukashenko enter into our stable community. Just read it: naviny . by / rubrics / inter /2009 / 04 / 24 / ic_news_ 259_310232 / !
Sweden, of course, can turn a blind eye on the atrocities that Lukashenko and his supporters commit against Byelorussians, but I see Sweden’s actions as treachery that should be no longer tolerated! How do you think we can deal with a country where KGB officers are allowed almost everything; where people receive their salary in the form of cheese and butter, as well as, members of the opposition get arrested only because they try to air their discontent with existing regime!
Here are the facts:
charter97 . org / en / news / 2009 / 8 / 4 / 20693/
charter97 . org / en / news / 2009 / 8 / 4 / 20697/
charter97 . org / en / news / 2009 / 8 / 5 / 20758/
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#2
Quote: KGB officers are allowed almost everything

I understand your point of view. But what about CIA officers?

Also I agree with title of the topic. For we're watching the second great transmigration of peoples.
Every passing hour brings the Solar System forty-three thousand miles closer to Globular Cluster M13 in Hercules - and still there are some misfits who insist that there is no such thing as progress.
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#3
Hello, everybody! Last week I visited my daughter. She lives in Belarus at the present time. You know, my daughter’s husband is very pretty young man and it was very interesting to talk to him. He holds a high position in one of the large-scale enterprises in Belarus, something connected with controlling if I’m not mistaken. He told me that nearly a month ago they were announced that due to Lukashenko’s order some Swedish businessman will become co-owner of their business. One week later Swedish Ambassador to Belarus, Stefan Ericsson, visited them. After all there is no surprise for me now that Sweden gives preferences to Belarus through ‘Eastern Partnership’. Swedish leaders accept fat presents from Belarusian president with pleasure. And now they are interested in Lukashenko’s regime, aren’t they?
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#4
I think we certainly can not say that this is not a business alliance. I think we will soon get out the real reason. Maybe it's just an investment and that nothing bad is hiding behind the union.
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#5
Elliot Wrote:. After all there is no surprise for me now that Sweden gives preferences to Belarus through ‘Eastern Partnership’. Swedish leaders accept fat presents from Belarusian president with pleasure. And now they are interested in Lukashenko’s regime, aren’t they?

Hello ... I think that is something in the middle, can be an alliance between them. Surely one of them, obviously Lukashenco, needs protection and support. And do not get anything for free
;-)
“The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.”
A really nice forum for Parisians
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#6
Thinker Wrote:..... This Eastern Partnership that Sweden so actively promotes is nothing but an attempt to let, say, Byelorussia with its dictator Lukashenko enter into our stable community. ..... Sweden, of course, can turn a blind eye on the atrocities that Lukashenko and his supporters commit against Byelorussians ...
I agree with you about Lukashenko but why do you think my country "promotes" him? Did Sweden praise him?

If you care about the Byelorussian people, don´t you think it´s a good idea to help them? Yes? How should we help them? Kill Lukashenko? Maybe it´s a good idea to help the Byelorussian people get Lukashenko out by democratic process. No? And how do you think we can do that? By stopping relationships between our people? I don´t think so.
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#7
55° N - 13° E Wrote:If you care about the Byelorussian people, don´t you think it´s a good idea to help them? Yes? How should we help them? Kill Lukashenko? Maybe it´s a good idea to help the Byelorussian people get Lukashenko out by democratic process. No? And how do you think we can do that? By stopping relationships between our people? I don´t think so.

In a way it is...but more for no...is like in those words "I wanted to do as better, but happened as always". why to kill ? It's enough to take the power from it's hands... is thery complicated to find a way out.... we can not do nothing! we are not players in this game, we are just decoration for it.
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#8
Nathan Wrote:In a way it is...but more for no...is like in those words "I wanted to do as better, but happened as always". ...
Yes, I know.

Nathan Wrote:It's enough to take the power from it's hands...
Yes, but by democratic ways NOT by force.

Nathan Wrote:is thery complicated to find a way out....
Yes, I know.

Nathan Wrote:.. we can not do nothing! we are not players in this game, we are just decoration for it.
That is why it is good to keep good relationships from "outside". But not from the Americans, they will only fuck you.

Do you think the Soviets fell by force? No. The Magyars decided to open their border and let the east Germans pass to the west. Friendship and cooperation.

"We" and you can help the Belorussions by friendship and cooperation. By force will lead to another war, and another war, and another war, and another war, and another war.
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#9
Nathan Wrote:
55° N - 13° E Wrote:If you care about the Byelorussian people, don´t you think it´s a good idea to help them? Yes? How should we help them? Kill Lukashenko? Maybe it´s a good idea to help the Byelorussian people get Lukashenko out by democratic process. No? And how do you think we can do that? By stopping relationships between our people? I don´t think so.

do not think they need help. They need political support. By stopping relationships we won't solve anything. I'm afraid that all this, not to turn in an aliance againt someone or something....let say Russia...Cause what Lukashenko does obviously is not only for financial support.
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#10
As turned out, Sweden, which is presiding in EU now, has proposed to lend a helping hand to Lukashenko’s Belarus! As if Belarusian dictator has begun to carry out some “democratic reforms” in his country… Ha-ha-ha! What a thing to do! How could Swedes believe in democratization of the country, led by such tyrant as current Belarusian President lukashenko . is - the - boss . com ?
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#11
Faw_Peter Wrote:By stopping relationships we won't solve anything.

That´s right. It will not make it better. Stopping relationship will make it worse.

Faw_Peter Wrote:do not think they need help. ..... not only for financial support.
I´m not talking about finacial support.

Faw_Peter Wrote:They need political support.
YES!!!
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#12
I think the matter is that people who suffered under what they call Lukshenko tyrany or regime or whanever , hoped for some kind of help from the west. Were they thought human rights and freedom are not empty words but real values. Turns out that if some tyrant have something of value to offer to those enlightened countries they would gladly forget about human rights and such and will be more than interested in partnership. Dont blame them if they feel betrayed. And it is good logick after all if you cant do anything to solve thier problems you can as well benefit from good relations with current autorities. I think Lukshenko found a great way to maintain himself in power. After all if west will take any steps to remove him from power he would just turn to Russia.
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#13
I’ am strongly object current Sweden’s policy in EU. I mean the attempts to integrate Belarus to our European Union. For me, current Belarus is, first of all, a dictatorship! And I don’t want EU to be associated with it in any form. You see, Lukashenko has built a classic authoritarian regime in his country. He’s afraid, wildly afraid, to lose his power And his unlawful methods of struggling with the opposition are explained it, too.

charter97 . org/en/news/2009/4/3/16881/
sharter97 . org/en/news/2009/4/16/17338/

And now Belarusian president made a U-turn to Europe and wants us to welcome him in the EU. I wish it will never happen!
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#14
SiD Wrote:. Turns out that if some tyrant have something of value to offer to those enlightened countries they would gladly forget about human rights and such and will be more than interested in partnership. Dont blame them if they feel betrayed. And it is good logick after all if you cant do anything to solve thier problems you can as well benefit from good relations with current autorities. I think Lukshenko found a great way to maintain himself in power. After all if west will take any steps to remove him from power he would just turn to Russia.

I understand your point of view but let's remember who gave power to Likashenko? You know, human rights and the rights provided by money and power can not be compared. they will find a hundred reasons to demonstrate that Lukashenko and Europe does not limit human in rights ...
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#15
Molly Wrote:I’ am strongly object current Sweden’s policy in EU. I mean the attempts to integrate Belarus to our European Union. For me, current Belarus is, first of all, a dictatorship! And I don’t want EU to be associated with it in any form. You see, Lukashenko has built a classic authoritarian regime in his country. He’s afraid, wildly afraid, to lose his power And his unlawful methods of struggling with the opposition are explained it, too.

charter97 . org/en/news/2009/4/3/16881/
sharter97 . org/en/news/2009/4/16/17338/

And now Belarusian president made a U-turn to Europe and wants us to welcome him in the EU. I wish it will never happen!

hey guys we have more topics on this theme, so see them if you want to know our opinions.
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#16
SiD Wrote:I think the matter is that people who suffered under ... Lukshenko ..... hoped for some kind of help from the west. ..... Dont blame them if they feel betrayed.
I don´t bame them.

Middle Europe thought that France and England would protect them from Hitler, the Jews thought the west would help them against the Holocaust, Iran thought the U.S. would support the Iranian democratic government, Castro thought the U.S. would support him for throwing out the mafia from Cuba, the Rwandans thought the west would help them aginast the genocicde, the Bosnians thought the west would help them against the Serbs, the Kurds thought the U.S. would help them to throw out Saddam, and the Iraqis thought the U.S.would help them save their country.

Many people have been betrayed. [Image: ouin.gif]
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#17
55° N - 13° E Wrote:I don´t bame them.

Middle Europe thought that France and England would protect them from Hitler, the Jews thought the west would help them against the Holocaust, Iran thought the U.S. would support the Iranian democratic government, Castro thought the U.S. would support him for throwing out the mafia from Cuba, the Rwandans thought the west would help them aginast the genocicde, the Bosnians thought the west would help them against the Serbs, the Kurds thought the U.S. would help them to throw out Saddam, and the Iraqis thought the U.S.would help them save their country.

Many people have been betrayed.

Right Smile thats politics, nothing personall. (only a little parhaps Smile ).
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#18
Molly Wrote:I’ am strongly object current Sweden’s policy in EU. .... You see, Lukashenko has built a classic authoritarian regime in his country. He’s afraid, wildly afraid, to lose his power .....
And you don´t understand that by joining the EU he WILL lose his power.
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#19
55° N - 13° E Wrote:
Molly Wrote:I’ am strongly object current Sweden’s policy in EU. .... You see, Lukashenko has built a classic authoritarian regime in his country. He’s afraid, wildly afraid, to lose his power .....
And you don´t understand that by joining the EU he WILL lose his power.

I agree with it. The democratic regime of EU countries will make Lukashenko to change his policy :ugeek:
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#20
Unfortunately our European leaders have missed the point of Sweden’s joining with US puppets from Eastern Europe and started to preach American policy of double standards in EU. To tell the truth I have never thought that our EU old members have supported Stockholm in it! See for yourself!
Now not only EU newcomers, but also Byelorussia has got a support of Sweden, presiding in the EU! To all seeming Swedes lay great hopes on Minsk as they’ve started advertising this authoritarian country through drawing it in the Eastern Partnership. But one thing is obvious: Washington plans to organize new color revolution there at the expense of our EU!
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#21
Quote:Washington plans to organize new color revolution there at the expense of our EU

I do not really love America also, but I think everything that happens in Europe has to do with America.
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#22
Lawlessness in Belarus: the EU keeps silence
European leaders should well and truly analyze the situation in Belarus before announcing decision on Belarus in Brussels in October. Special attention should be paid to the brutal actions of Belarusian authorities on dispersal of an absolute peaceful rally. Dozens of participants of these rallies were detained on September 9 and 16. The people were beaten and tortured
charter97 . org / en / news /2009/9/10/21845
charter97 . org / en / news /2009/9/11/21890
charter97 . org / en / news /2009/17/22051
Moreover, Belarusian authorities try to hinder work of representatives of local and foreign mass media, thus they violate the freedom of speech
charter97 . org / be / news /2009/9/16/22022 . It’s early yet to speak about the lifting EU sanctions on Belarusian ruling regime. I fundamentally think that Europe should insist on restraining Belarusian authorities from using force against peaceful rallies and on allowing representatives of independent media to do their work without their interference.
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#23
Quote:Belarusian ruling regime. I fundamentally think that Europe should insist on restraining Belarusian authorities from using force against peaceful rallies and on allowing representatives of independent media to do their work without their interference.

The media should not be left totally free and so because they exceed the impossible but can you imagine if they will have total freedom where they will come... :|
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#24
Faw_Peter Wrote:The media should not be left totally free and so because they exceed the impossible but can you imagine if they will have total freedom where they will come... :|

The media in democratic countries is not totally free. There are strict laws that impose some correctness on media.
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#25
Andrei Wrote:The media in democratic countries is not totally free. There are strict laws that impose some correctness on media.

Talking about media, I agree with Andrei. If there is a free market, goods production depands on demand and all marketing mechanisms are working fully. And somehow Information is a kind of product.
So - as an effect - we mainly hear profitable news, instead of those which are really important. And that is some kind of censorship and distortion of informations. Obviously there is also legislation and politacal pressuire which restricting media somehow...
Of course - becouse information is a product, and so editors are "factories" - completly free media would reach a land of extreme absurd - by creating stories that everybody likes. And that is also mistake.
So we are convicted to live between those two "polar edges". :-(
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