Lithuania decided to use its veto on cooperation with Russia

[Faw_Peter]

You call the 9th of May a Putin's show. I think we must show respect towards all the people who fought for freedom in the WWII

[Karl.in.eu]

I agree with you but this particular year WAS a Putin's show, because this is his policy : Russia - a military power

[Yalta1945]

I agree with you but this particular year WAS a Putin's show, because this is his policy : Russia - a military power

That's true. It is also insulting to equal Gulag to freedom. The change of one aggressor by another, the change of one totalitarian regime by another is no liberation. The presidents of Lithuania and Estonia did not attend the show in Moscow - have you any idea why? I guess the history of the Baltic States is still the history unknown for a lot of people. You might feel uneasy after having discovered its facts in the part which concerns the role of big powers in shaping the fate of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania as well as some unusual turn of other things you might have stereotyped about long ago. The Balts were abandoned and sold off to the USSR by the Western powers some 6 decades ago but I wish no more European nations receive similar treatment in the 21st century. (However, even Russians feel this way. Leonid Volkov who named Putin’s regime “imper(o)nazism” said the West failed by not offering a new “Marshall plan” for Russia in 1990’s. L.Volkov spoke yesterday at the seminar in Vytautas Magnus University, Kaunas, Lithuania)
I have already posted to this forum about the scope of losses of the Baltic States due to the WW II and the Soviet and German occupations. The first Soviet occupation took place in 1940 – before Hitler attacked the USSR. The massive deportations and killings occurred in 1940 - before Germans came. Should we then call the German occupation in 1941 “liberation”?
Do you know anything about executions of villagers by the Soviet “liberators” in the Southern Lithuania in 1944 (families burnt alive)?
Among those who were deported during one of the first biggest and cruelest deportations of Lithuanians to the permafrost region nearby the Laptev Sea were the current Lithuanian president’s aunt and her son. Both of them died in 1943 at their age of 41 and 21, respectively. This year a Lithuanian expedition found the place where they were buried. It was also filmed how the coffins of the former Finnish exilers sloped down into the sea because of the eroded seacoast where they had been buried.
My brother’s Godmother was born in exile in Siberia. Her mother was deported to Siberia when she was pregnant. The girl was born weighing 0,9 kg – it was a miracle she survived. (Of course, you may just not believe it.) My wife’s relative was shot dead by the Soviets and nobody explained why – life was too cheap.
My mother’s uncle, a Russian, fought against Germans in the Soviet army. He was injured and taken as a POW by Germans. Guess, what his own government made to him after the war? They sent him to the Soviet concentration camp.
The president of Latvia who was as conformist as other Western leaders because she had lived in emigration in Canada without sufficient knowledge of how the Soviet system of human manipulation used to function in details went to Moscow on her “mission impossible” – as she promised to explain the Latvian part of the history to Russians while her stay in Russia. She gave away a special historical book to Putin. All that we know about the outcome of her gift was that Putin would never want to see her any more. It was communicated through diplomatic channels that the president of Russia would never meet his Latvian counterpart until Vaira Vīķe-Freiberga remained in office.
Our neighbour is again going to make some special gift to us - for the 90th anniversary of Latvian independence. While the USA urges Russia to admit the fact of the occupation of the Baltic States by the USSR, Russia is going to raise in the UN void accusations against Latvia for the so-called glorification of Nazism.
BTW, Putin’s approval rating has just climbed up to 88% (from 82), and Medvedev’s rating has risen to 83% (from 73).

[SiD]

I agree with you but this particular year WAS a Putin's show, because this is his policy : Russia - a military power

That's true. It is also insulting to equal Gulag to freedom. The change of one aggressor by another, the change of one totalitarian regime by another is no liberation. The presidents of Lithuania and Estonia did not attend the show in Moscow - have you any idea why? I guess the history of the Baltic States is still the history unknown for a lot of people. You might feel uneasy after having discovered its facts in the part which concerns the role of big powers in shaping the fate of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania as well as some unusual turn of other things you might have stereotyped about long ago. The Balts were abandoned and sold off to the USSR by the Western powers some 6 decades ago but I wish no more European nations receive similar treatment in the 21st century. (However, even Russians feel this way. Leonid Volkov who named Putin’s regime “imper(o)nazism” said the West failed by not offering a new “Marshall plan” for Russia in 1990’s. L.Volkov spoke yesterday at the seminar in Vytautas Magnus University, Kaunas, Lithuania)
I have already posted to this forum about the scope of losses of the Baltic States due to the WW II and the Soviet and German occupations. The first Soviet occupation took place in 1940 – before Hitler attacked the USSR. The massive deportations and killings occurred in 1940 - before Germans came. Should we then call the German occupation in 1941 “liberation”?
Do you know anything about executions of villagers by the Soviet “liberators” in the Southern Lithuania in 1944 (families burnt alive)?
Among those who were deported during one of the first biggest and cruelest deportations of Lithuanians to the permafrost region nearby the Laptev Sea were the current Lithuanian president’s aunt and her son. Both of them died in 1943 at their age of 41 and 21, respectively. This year a Lithuanian expedition found the place where they were buried. It was also filmed how the coffins of the former Finnish exilers sloped down into the sea because of the eroded seacoast where they had been buried.
My brother’s Godmother was born in exile in Siberia. Her mother was deported to Siberia when she was pregnant. The girl was born weighing 0,9 kg – it was a miracle she survived. (Of course, you may just not believe it.) My wife’s relative was shot dead by the Soviets and nobody explained why – life was too cheap.
My mother’s uncle, a Russian, fought against Germans in the Soviet army. He was injured and taken as a POW by Germans. Guess, what his own government made to him after the war? They sent him to the Soviet concentration camp.
The president of Latvia who was as conformist as other Western leaders because she had lived in emigration in Canada without sufficient knowledge of how the Soviet system of human manipulation used to function in details went to Moscow on her “mission impossible” – as she promised to explain the Latvian part of the history to Russians while her stay in Russia. She gave away a special historical book to Putin. All that we know about the outcome of her gift was that Putin would never want to see her any more. It was communicated through diplomatic channels that the president of Russia would never meet his Latvian counterpart until Vaira Vīķe-Freiberga remained in office.
Our neighbour is again going to make some special gift to us - for the 90th anniversary of Latvian independence. While the USA urges Russia to admit the fact of the occupation of the Baltic States by the USSR, Russia is going to raise in the UN void accusations against Latvia for the so-called glorification of Nazism.
BTW, Putin’s approval rating has just climbed up to 88% (from 82), and Medvedev’s rating has risen to 83% (from 73).

Wictory day is one of most important celibrations so dont touch it. Baltic states history is in history. Must it affect present? (i think we must be closer to topic) We can remember many bad things from our history, so what?

[Yalta1945]

Wictory day is one of most important celibrations so dont touch it. Baltic states history is in history. Must it affect present? (i think we must be closer to topic) We can remember many bad things from our history, so what?

Which way could it be a victory for the Baltic States? Estonians have their official Victory Day on 23 June. This day back in 1919 Estonian forces helped by their Latvian brothers in arms won the Battle of Võnnu against German forces. The victory secured independence for Estonia. This independence was buried by Hitler’s ally Stalin who occupied all the three Baltic States in 1940, bringing mass deportations, killings and all the worst to these countries. Nothing of that Soviet criminality was made easier for the people of the Baltic States after the defeat of Nazism. Deportations, killings and oppression followed.
Please be honest and admit the truth.
In Western Europe, the end of World War II meant liberation. In Central and Eastern Europe, there was the Soviet occupation and annexation of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania and the imposition of communism. While this may sound too abstract to somebody, it is felt very alive in the Baltic States.
At the start of the WW II the USSR was an ally of Nazi Germany. Stalin cooperated with Hitler, helped him and watched him march across Europe while simultaneously preparing for the favourable moment to hit the ally at the back when Germany gets overstretched and weakened (so that the Soviet Union would get a realistic chance to conquer even the whole European continent). Hitler was just the first to turn against his cunning ally. After 1941 the totalitarian USSR and the democratic USA became allies, however it was not their main values that brought them together but their common enemy at that time.
What we witness presently in Russia is an increasing trend towards the glorification of Stalin's personality and Stalinist politics. This way (but not this way only) it is not history yet – it is our present.
Victory in Europe Day is 8 May, not 9 May. 9 May is Europe day. (And 23 September was Holocaust memorial day in Lithuania.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yesterday Lithuanian president V.Adamkus spoke at the 63rd Session of the UN general Assembly:
“I have to admit that many nations, big and small, today have many more concerns than a decade ago. Today we feel less secure. The very structure of the international system seems to be fracturing, depriving us from the protection provided by international law and international institutions.”
He pointed out that in Eastern Europe and in the EU eastern neighborhood, this was more obvious than anywhere else. Singling out energy issues, Mr. Adamkus emphasized that oil supplies to Lithuania have been cut off without warning and that we did not stand a chance of conducting a normal civilized dialogue on how to fix this problem.
-
In his opinion, it did not matter if the world was unipolar, bipolar or multipolar, because human life and human rights remained at the heart of our world. Only such a world could create a truly viable architecture among the states – an architecture based on trust, openness and respect for human rights. “But did we see efforts to create such an architecture in the Georgia-Russia conflict? What we saw instead were renewed attempts to divide the world into zones of influence or privileged interests. And this should be unacceptable for the international community of the 21st century. Division and exclusion are bad remedies for conflict resolution. Therefore, conflict resolutions in South Ossetia, Abkhazia or elsewhere should be the responsibility of the international community and international institutions, not of one participating side, which hardly remains impartial,” Mr. Adamkus said.
Source: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.president.lt/en/news.full/9630">http://www.president.lt/en/news.full/9630</a><!-- m -->

[SiD]

My question was quite specific. What for this history lecture? I could debate but it is not theme of this topic. When NATO invaded Ugoslavia everyone was calm, when US and its allies invaded Iraq (and they admit that they lied about reasons of invasion) they were calm, when we defending our rightfull interests, lives of our people - they are concerned. And suddenly they are finaly struck by understanding that US in fact demaged international law but they blame us for exepting new rules. It is obvius that when they fear for thier own hides (without any reason by the way) they finaly used brain and looked what is happening in the world.
And i still want to hear nswer how is USSR or history related to this document?

[Steven]

By the way, does Lithuania celebrate the 9th of May as the day of victory? I also know May 9 is the Europe's day, I think Lithuanians rather celebrate the latter than the first.

[Yalta1945]

My question was quite specific. What for this history lecture? I could debate but it is not theme of this topic. <...> And i still want to hear nswer how is USSR or history related to this document?

I am amused you called it a “lecture”. First I replied to the post that seemed to imply the Soviet Union delivered freedom to the Baltic States, although it was exactly the opposite. Then I answered to your post trying to explain the Soviet victory could hardly in any way mean victory for the Baltic Sates, therefore they had no reason to celebrate the Soviet Victory Day of May 9. If the argument is still not clear enough, see how it was summoned up by the Estonian president Arnold Rüütel in 2005: “It may not be so easily understood, as unlike in Western Europe, the spring of 1945 did not bring liberty to our people.”
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://vp2001-2006.vpk.ee/en/duties/speeches.php?gid=62511&mida=9%20May">http://vp2001-2006.vpk.ee/en/duties/spe ... da=9%20May</a><!-- m -->
I should better provide another explanation made by the Lithuanian president Valdas Adamkus, but you are already accusing me of being out of the topic. So should we continue or stop it?
I have mentioned an aspect which shows how the history could affect the present. The resurrection of Stalin’s personality cult could not be counted as irrelevant to the politics of Russia. This way it does affect the relations between Lithuania and Russia.
Besides any problems occurring during the recent past, there are also legal issues arising from the Soviet era - both on the state and individual level - that still have to be dealt with in the present and the future. The latter is nothing new to Russia, the most remarkable fact being that Russia still has no peace agreement with Japan after the WW II.

When NATO invaded Ugoslavia everyone was calm, when US and its allies invaded Iraq (and they admit that they lied about reasons of invasion) they were calm, when we defending our rightfull interests, lives of our people - they are concerned. And suddenly they are finaly struck by understanding that US in fact demaged international law but they blame us for exepting new rules. It is obvius that when they fear for thier own hides (without any reason by the way) they finaly used brain and looked what is happening in the world.

It is your own interpretation. Why do you put Yugoslavia and Iraq to the same pot? (Aren’t these cases out of the topic, after all?)
I hold Russians to the respect of the principles they themselves declared to be stuck to not so long ago, including the respect for the territorial integrity of Georgia. Unfortunately, Russia looks extremely inconsistent. Is not Russia accountable for many years of a very partial role in Caucasus and attempts to destabilize Georgia? Whatever you think of other countries, human rights should be your concern. You’d better check if your “rightfull interests” in practice pass the test of the international norms.
One of the most astonishing things to me is that you tend to blame the third party for your own international failures. Someone has already answered to this kind of arguments Russians use so often: do not justify your own wrongdoings by the presumed wrongdoings of others (the US or someone else you hate).

[Yalta1945]

By the way, does Lithuania celebrate the 9th of May as the day of victory? I also know May 9 is the Europe's day, I think Lithuanians rather celebrate the latter than the first.

Yes, it is Europe‘s Day in Lithuania. It is very important. Lithuania celebrates this day as a member of the EU. I could go long on enumerating the real and possible benefits for Lithuania as a member of the EU. It helped even to promote cooperation among the Baltic States. The big hope for the EU (and Nato) has been that the integration could very significantly help fight domestic corruption.
As for the essence of how Lithuania sees the end of war in Europe, I should cite the part of its president’s speech on the 7th of May in 2005 when he didn’t join other world leaders in Moscow (my translation):
‘The World War II left especially deep wounds in Lithuania. Occupations, deportations, imprisonments, the terrible tragedy of Holocaust, concentration camps, and forced emigration were the most painful blows of totalitarian regimes to the Lithuanian nation. More than three hundred fifty thousand people – this being one tenth of Lithuania – were imprisoned, sent to the GULAG camps or killed in Lithuania. These atrocities were also committed in our country after the official end of the most brutal war in the mankind’s history. Lithuania’s name was erased from the map of Europe for fifty years. We could hardly find any Lithuanian family which avoided losses and traumas.
Being well aware of this sore historical experience of Nation and the discussions that took place in public, I have decided to stay on the 9th of May in Lithuania, with the nation. Here, in Lithuania, we will honour the heroes of war in a due way; we will bend our heads to the memory of all who died. And we should not any longer discuss where it is more appropriate to mark the anniversary of the end of the WW II.
I sincerely believe that Russian people will understand my decision, and we together will build the future of peaceful and open Europe.’
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.president.lt/lt/news.full/5544">http://www.president.lt/lt/news.full/5544</a><!-- m -->
The people of Lithuania have all inclusive view of the meaning of this date: they look upon it in the global and European context. They know too well what meaning this date has in Russia and how Kremlin exploits feelings of the Russian people to infuse among them the proud image of Russian military might and moral superiority.
Symbolically, the statutes of Dzerzinski and Stalin get back on their feet in Russia - also on 9 May. It is different from Georgia where the statue of Stalin in Gori looks like rather a rudiment of the former life in the USSR. Russians have already attempted to rename Volgograd to Stalingrad but the idea was then rejected purely on the economic (or utilitarian) ground – the change of the city’s name would ask for lots of spending from the local budget. Needless to say, that the ordinary veterans so praised in Russian media have not been adequately respected for years when their social needs are concerned – it has been a typical divergence between Soviet style propaganda and the reality of life. I am not sure how it is this year. But it was again a typical example that the only man who proposed a toast to the honour of an ordinary Russian soldier when Americans and Soviets were meeting in 1945 was an American lieutenant.
Notably, some Russian oriented political party in Latvia has just recently created their film for teens at schools in order to explain why they celebrated their Victory day on the 9th of May. The most characteristic feature of the film is that the film does not reflect the history of the WW II in any broader context than the old Soviet version used to suggest. It briefly mentions the Soviet war against Finland in the same terms that Russia applies to Georgia now: the war against Finland was… the enforcement of peace!

[SiD]

[quote="Yalta1945"]I am amused you called it a “lecture”. First I replied to the post that seemed to imply the Soviet Union delivered freedom to the Baltic States, although it was exactly the opposite. Then I answered to your post trying to explain the Soviet victory could hardly in any way mean victory for the Baltic Sates, therefore they had no reason to celebrate the Soviet Victory Day of May 9. If the argument is still not clear enough, see how it was summoned up by the Estonian president Arnold Rüütel in 2005: “It may not be so easily understood, as unlike in Western Europe, the spring of 1945 did not bring liberty to our people.”
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://vp2001-2006.vpk.ee/en/duties/speeches.php?gid=62511&mida=9%20May">http://vp2001-2006.vpk.ee/en/duties/spe ... da=9%20May</a><!-- m -->
I should better provide another explanation made by the Lithuanian president Valdas Adamkus, but you are already accusing me of being out of the topic. So should we continue or stop it?
I have mentioned an aspect which shows how the history could affect the present. The resurrection of Stalin’s personality cult could not be counted as irrelevant to the politics of Russia. This way it does affect the relations between Lithuania and Russia.
Besides any problems occurring during the recent past, there are also legal issues arising from the Soviet era - both on the state and individual level - that still have to be dealt with in the present and the future. The latter is nothing new to Russia, the most remarkable fact being that Russia still has no peace agreement with Japan after the WW II.

Sorry but i think i created little misunderstabding. I missed word our. Victory day is our (Russian) one of most important celibrations. Foolish to think everyone celibrates with us. My mistake, sorry. But this celibration is very important to us. So better dont speak about it like about some kind of show or anything.
If it is not victory for someone else its not our problem, for us it is great victory achieved by terrible cost.

[quote="Yalta1945"]It is your own interpretation. Why do you put Yugoslavia and Iraq to the same pot? (Aren’t these cases out of the topic, after all?)
I hold Russians to the respect of the principles they themselves declared to be stuck to not so long ago, including the respect for the territorial integrity of Georgia. Unfortunately, Russia looks extremely inconsistent. Is not Russia accountable for many years of a very partial role in Caucasus and attempts to destabilize Georgia? Whatever you think of other countries, human rights should be your concern. You’d better check if your “rightfull interests” in practice pass the test of the international norms.
One of the most astonishing things to me is that you tend to blame the third party for your own international failures. Someone has already answered to this kind of arguments Russians use so often: do not justify your own wrongdoings by the presumed wrongdoings of others (the US or someone else you hate).

No they arent. That are examples wre US and allies demaged your beloved international laws and norms. And i havent seen eastern europe countries panic about that. I blame third party for demaging international law, if someone is above the law you should not expect everyone follow it. They put new rules, we tried to reason with them but they do not want to hear anything. So we better use these new rules to our advantage. Not to mention that we could not act in different way generaly. You expected our government to abandone our people and peacekeepers? If west is coutius for us becouse of our actions i dont care, if they are angry or anything i dont care.

We are not i n war with Japan either. And what about relations Lithuania should better think about itself as part of Union not selfish little country. Something like, something not but they are part of EU now and must care about Union iterests.

[Yalta1945]

Victory day is our (Russian) one of most important celibrations. Foolish to think everyone celibrates with us.<...> But this celibration is very important to us. So better dont speak about it like about some kind of show or anything.
If it is not victory for someone else its not our problem, for us it is great victory achieved by terrible cost.

It used to be a kind of show (a somewhat theatrical happening with precise orchestration) during the Soviet years with one general purpose to show massive support of the Soviet people to their leaders and scare the West. The more it gets celebrated that way the more it deserves the name of show.
However, there are principal differences now. 1.Since Bolsheviks usurped the power in 1917 till the collapse of the Soviet Union the leadership was using much more coercive means for this support to be showed. Since that time leaders of Russia have probably never had so large support given to them voluntarily. 2. Russia reveals a very strange psychological complex of being humiliated if it is not a superpower and if its neighbours are not scared of Russia, and Russian people have in general great nostalgia (expressed by their leaders as well) for the military might of the Soviet Union.
But I do not think the world will witness the renaissance of the Russian communism. I share view of those who see Russia sliding to semifascism (paradoxically) rather than to communism.

US and allies demaged your beloved international laws and norms.And i havent seen eastern europe countries panic about that.

Unclear, too general, without proof.

I blame third party for demaging international law, if someone is above the law you should not expect everyone follow it. They put new rules, we tried to reason with them but they do not want to hear anything. So we better use these new rules to our advantage.

We just need to know what the new rules are. :quoi

Not to mention that we could not act in different way generaly.

As far as free choice and good will is concerned, you could. You could have done immensely better by playing an impartial role in Georgia.

We are not i n war with Japan either.

De facto you are not in war with Japan. You are in the state of peace with Japan either. How much respect for international law in this case? Don't blame Americans again.

And what about relations Lithuania should better think about itself as part of Union not selfish little country. Something like, something not but they are part of EU now and must care about Union iterests.

More Catholic than the Pope? :|

[SiD]

It used to be a kind of show (a somewhat theatrical happening with precise orchestration) during the Soviet years with one general purpose to show massive support of the Soviet people to their leaders and scare the West. The more it gets celebrated that way the more it deserves the name of show.
However, there are principal differences now. 1.Since Bolsheviks usurped the power in 1917 till the collapse of the Soviet Union the leadership was using much more coercive means for this support to be showed. Since that time leaders of Russia have probably never had so large support given to them voluntarily. 2. Russia reveals a very strange psychological complex of being humiliated if it is not a superpower and if its neighbours are not scared of Russia, and Russian people have in general great nostalgia (expressed by their leaders as well) for the military might of the Soviet Union.
But I do not think the world will witness the renaissance of the Russian communism. I share view of those who see Russia sliding to semifascism (paradoxically) rather than to communism.

Celibrations are always archestrated, and what you want to prove? You want to say its not important day to Russians? Or defeat of nazism should be mourned? Who is coming to semifascism then? Parads of former nazi troopers are closer to it you know.

SiD wrote:
US and allies demaged your beloved international laws and norms.And i havent seen eastern europe countries panic about that.
Unclear, too general, without proof.

What you want? Dead bodies? Parhaps Bush will show us Sadams WMDs? Or everyone in Serbia is happy and greatfull to NATO for thier actions? Go to Iraq or to Belgrade i think you can find people who will explain to you everything quite clearly.

SiD wrote:
I blame third party for demaging international law, if someone is above the law you should not expect everyone follow it. They put new rules, we tried to reason with them but they do not want to hear anything. So we better use these new rules to our advantage.
We just need to know what is the new rules are.

New rules are: if international law says it is forbiden , it doesnt mean it is forbidden for everyone.

SiD wrote:
Not to mention that we could not act in different way generaly.
As far as free choice and good will is concerned, you could. You could have done immensely better by playing an impartial role in Georgia.

Abandon our peacekeepers and people ther? Parhaps it is your choice not ours.

SiD wrote:
We are not i n war with Japan either.
De facto you are not in war with Japan. You are in the state of peace with Japan either. How much respect for international law in this case? Don't blame Americans again.

It make no inconvinience to me. There is or there is no formal peace.

I take it you dont think that Lithuania should think about EU intersts. Good for them.

[Yalta1945]

Celibrations are always archestrated, and what you want to prove? You want to say its not important day to Russians? Or defeat of nazism should be mourned? Who is coming to semifascism then? Parads of former nazi troopers are closer to it you know.

There are no such parades but you probably don't know it. I guess you talk of Latvia or Estonia but you are mistaken about them too. There is nothing in political life of Latvia or Estonia to suggest any sympathy to Nazism. There is only the historical fact that some Estonians and Latvians fought against their (first) Soviet occupiers in German uniforms (to put it simple). When I talk of Russian trend I am not so concerned of symbols but political practice. But the way you celebrate still can tell us more about you. Unfortunately, you cannot see it through our eyes. We notice where the special stress is put on. Even during last years of the Soviet Union I did not see Stalinists to hijack the events of 9 May.

What you want? Dead bodies? Parhaps Bush will show us Sadams WMDs? Or everyone in Serbia is happy and greatfull to NATO for thier actions? Go to Iraq or to Belgrade i think you can find people who will explain to you everything quite clearly.

I can't go to Iraq and Belgrade right now. Do you have any contacts there? Milosevic is dead, Saddam is dead, - are there any other reliable sources of information left there?

New rules are: if international law says it is forbiden , it doesnt mean it is forbidden for everyone.

These cannot be rules. And if the law was violated it does not make the law obsolete.

SiD wrote:
Not to mention that we could not act in different way generaly.
As far as free choice and good will is concerned, you could. You could have done immensely better by playing an impartial role in Georgia.

Abandon our peacekeepers and people ther? Parhaps it is your choice not ours.

Abandon Karaganov’s doctrine and alike – well before August 2008
________________________________________________________
p.s. I don’t understand why you don’t want normal relations with Japan.

[Yalta1945]

p.s. I am not the one who first attributed the “show” label to the way Putin organizes celebration of Victory Day.
“Putin defends military show planned for Victory Day”
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://in.news.yahoo.com/indiaabroad/20080505/r_t_ians_wl_europe/twl-putin-defends-military-show-planned-ef5d19c.html">http://in.news.yahoo.com/indiaabroad/20 ... 5d19c.html</a><!-- m -->

In view of earlier accusations made by SiD, I also add this part:
Lithuanians first tried Nazists in court in 1934. Lithuanians were resisting German mobilization and many were sent to Nazi concentration camps for this reason. There were Lithuanians who fought against Germans in the Soviet army. There was special 16 Rifle Lithuanian Division formed in the Soviet army. Partisans who fought Germans in WW II were active in eastern part of Lithuania. Only the threat of the second Soviet occupation made Lithuanians more willing to join the German army. In all three Baltic States after the first Soviet occupation in 1940-1941 people were actively resisting the second Soviet occupation. Latvians and Estonians were joining Germans to resist Soviets whose atrocities they had experienced during the first occupation. Lithuanians were different as they organized the most active national resistance to Soviets by entering guerrilla tactics, which continued in the years after the end of WW II.

[SiD]

There are no such parades but you probably don't know it. I guess you talk of Latvia or Estonia but you are mistaken about them too. There is nothing in political life of Latvia or Estonia to suggest any sympathy to Nazism. There is only the historical fact that some Estonians and Latvians fought against their (first) Soviet occupiers in German uniforms (to put it simple). When I talk of Russian trend I am not so concerned of symbols but political practice. But the way you celebrate still can tell us more about you. Unfortunately, you cannot see it through our eyes. We notice where the special stress is put on. Even during last years of the Soviet Union I did not see Stalinists to hijack the events of 9 May.

I can't go to Iraq and Belgrade right now. Do you have any contacts there? Milosevic is dead, Saddam is dead, - are there any other reliable sources of information left there?

You know what, i am amased by your obility to not see obvius things. Lets just put it like this: Iraq is occupied, part of Serbia was occupied and then taken away from Serbia. You have any doubts about thier attitude at that matter? Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and so on they are unhappy, and others would be happy and greatfull?
Same about nazi in eastern europe. Same about Russia.

These cannot be rules. And if the law was violated it does not make the law obsolete.

Yeah you understood clearly new rules are no rules, just interests and opportunities.

Abandon Karaganov’s doctrine and alike – well before August 2008

If NATO would abandon its enlargement and US abandon thier agressive foreign policy and thier plans for Eastern europe (thier anti missiles) and they could control thier puppet in Georgia everything would be just fine.

p.s. I don’t understand why you don’t want normal relations with Japan.

I want, but they want isles for this.

[Terry]

what would some island decide for Russia? Can't it just give them to Japan?

[SiD]

what would some island decide for Russia? Can't it just give them to Japan?

No way. Give a thinger and they will eate your arm.

[Yalta1945]

what would some island decide for Russia? Can't it just give them to Japan?

No way. Give a thinger and they will eate your arm.

:mrgreen:
Nonsense.
Don't they have a right to demand back their own finger you tore apart from their hand?

[SiD]

what would some island decide for Russia? Can't it just give them to Japan?

No way. Give a thinger and they will eate your arm.

:mrgreen:
Nonsense.
Don't they have a right to demand back their own finger you tore apart from their hand?

Now it is finger on our hand. Parhaps native americans can demand thier lands back?

[Yalta1945]

Now it is finger on our hand. Parhaps native americans can demand thier lands back?

Sure. Why not?
But how many non-military citizens of Russia have ever been able to visit those islands and what interest does that "finger" serve?

You know what, i am amased by your obility to not see obvius things. Lets just put it like this: Iraq is occupied, part of Serbia was occupied and then taken away from Serbia.

We have a friend who used to live in Serbia. He grew up in Novi Sad. He now lives in the EU and remembers his past in Yugoslavia as the lost paradise. This paradise seems to be lost because of too big ambitions certain politicians in Yugoslavia used to have. We should not forget it. Although Russia has never been a paradise, you may also regret in the future of something lost because of your leaders’ ambitions.
Milosevic and Saddam were the evil and Russia was not among those powers that cared much of that. Not only Kuwait but Iraqis themselves and even America’s opponent Iran experienced Saddam’s evil in practice as well. Almost unconditional support of Milosevic by Russia was immoral. What policy did he implement? The elements of fascisms were set up under his command and German minister Joschka Fischer said we could not tolerate new fascism in Europe. It’s stunning this argument does not reach ears of those who still want the world to see their country as the most fervent fighter against fascism in WW II.

Yeah you understood clearly new rules are no rules, just interests and opportunities.

You are not fair saying there are no rules. Without rules all international business would stop immediately.

If NATO would abandon its enlargement and US abandon thier agressive foreign policy and thier plans for Eastern europe (thier anti missiles) and they could control thier puppet in Georgia everything would be just fine.

You forget who started first. You have no right to treat your neighbours as the only backyard to serve some assumed special interests of Russia. Ukraine and other sovereign actors of international system have the right to decide on which system of collective security serves best to them. They can consider themselves whether to apply for the EU and NATO membership or not.

[Yalta1945]

Give a thinger and they will eate your arm.

:mrgreen:
Nonsense.
Don't they have a right to demand back their own finger you tore apart from their hand?

Now it is finger on our hand.

Oh, I have almost missed that this wonderful argument speaks loder than all the rest.
Just admit you think Russia should neither care for international law nor for any legitimate ground to justify its actions in relation to other states, and I will not waste my time discussing with you, for I’m not the one to correct failures of your educational system. You use absolutely criminal reasoning. It’s now like me talking to another little zhirinovsky on the Russian TV show. Just admit you think it is all right for Russia to act as a thief.

[SiD]

Sure. Why not?
But how many non-military citizens of Russia have ever been able to visit those islands and what interest does that "finger" serve?

Do you know how many unpopulated or rerely visited places we have? Should we give it all to someone? .
I think you can qeuss the answer.

We have a friend who used to live in Serbia. He grew up in Novi Sad. He now lives in the EU and remembers his past in Yugoslavia as the lost paradise. This paradise seems to be lost because of too big ambitions certain politicians in Yugoslavia used to have. We should not forget it. Although Russia has never been a paradise, you may also regret in the future of something lost because of your leaders’ ambitions.
Milosevic and Saddam were the evil and Russia was not among those powers that cared much of that. Not only Kuwait but Iraqis themselves and even America’s opponent Iran experienced Saddam’s evil in practice as well. Almost unconditional support of Milosevic by Russia was immoral. What policy did he implement? The elements of fascisms were set up under his command and German minister Joschka Fischer said we could not tolerate new fascism in Europe. It’s stunning this argument does not reach ears of those who still want the world to see their country as the most fervent fighter against fascism in WW II.

Dont worry about us we should be alright. Russia is not a country that could be invaded like Serbia or Iraq.
US and NATO spread good than? I think you already know that serbs think otherwise ( you call them fascists? that is too much. Better turn your attention to former nazi soldiers parades in some eastern european countries

You are not fair saying there are no rules. Without rules all international business would stop immediately.

), about Iraq how many tousands of troops US keeps ther? They havent done all good that they could? Dont make me lough. How many people are diyng from hunger every day? And how many could be saved if you spend US expanses for Iraq war? But hey if you help them you will gain nothing, so better is to do more "moral" thing like to invade Iraq.

You are not fair saying there are no rules. Without rules all international business would stop immediately.

Of course there are. Are they working good? There must be rules for ALL, not just for those who is not strong enough to ignore them.

If NATO would abandon its enlargement and US abandon thier agressive foreign policy and thier plans for Eastern europe (thier anti missiles) and they could control thier puppet in Georgia everything would be just fine.

You forget who started first. You have no right to treat your neighbours as the only backyard to serve some assumed special interests of Russia. Ukraine and other sovereign actors of international system have the right to decide on which system of collective security serves best to them. They can consider themselves whether to apply for the EU and NATO membership or not.
[/quote]

We started NATO enlargement by what? By fall of Soviet Union? We provoked US for aggresive policy?
Our government has dutie to defend our people against internal and external treats. I expect tough actions wenn other country attacks our people. And i expect (like evryone) that our government will be GREATLY concerned with foreign (originaly anti Soviet) military alliance coming to our borders.

[SiD]

Oh, I have almost missed that this wonderful argument speaks loder than all the rest.
Just admit you think Russia should neither care for international law nor for any legitimate ground to justify its actions in relation to other states, and I will not waste my time discussing with you, for I’m not the one to correct failures of your educational system. You use absolutely criminal reasoning. It’s now like me talking to another little zhirinovsky on the Russian TV show. Just admit you think it is all right for Russia to act as a thief.

You cant find official information in web? Putin and Medvedev made interviews to clearify that matter. Parhaps i should repeat thier words to you? Or you exept only arguments that are agreeing with your view? And if i was even one fourth like Zhirinovsky i would already made some treats or insults .

[Yalta1945]

Oh, I have almost missed that this wonderful argument speaks louder than all the rest.
Just admit you think Russia should neither care for international law nor for any legitimate ground to justify its actions in relation to other states, and I will not waste my time discussing with you, for I’m not the one to correct failures of your educational system. You use absolutely criminal reasoning. It’s now like me talking to another little zhirinovsky on the Russian TV show. Just admit you think it is all right for Russia to act as a thief.

You cant find official information in web? Putin and Medvedev made interviews to clearify that matter. Parhaps i should repeat thier words to you? Or you exept only arguments that are agreeing with your view? And if i was even one fourth like Zhirinovsky i would already made some treats or insults .

I am glad to see a change in your barbaric attitude to international law. President Medvedev claims his country actions to be in comply with international law. He did not say or imply we should dismiss international law, while you wrote there were “just interests and opportunities” (on 27 Sep 2008).
You asked me about any information on the internet. Here you are:
“The first Russo-Japanese agreement to deal with the status of Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands is the 1855 Treaty of Shimoda which first established official relations between Russia and Japan. Article 2 of the Treaty of Shimoda, which provided for an agreement on borders, states "Henceforth the boundary between the two nations shall lie between the islands of Etorofu and Uruppu. The whole of Etorofu shall belong to Japan; and the Kurile Islands, lying to the north of and including Uruppu, shall belong to Russia." The islands of Kunashiri, Shikotan and the Habomai Islands, that all lie to the south of Etorofu, are not explicitly mentioned in the treaty and were understood at the time to be a non-disputed part of Japan. The Treaty also specified that the island of Sakhalin/Karafuto was not to be partitioned but was to remain under a joint Russo-Japanese condominium.
In a subsequent 1875 Treaty of Saint Petersburg Russia and Japan agreed that Japan would give up all rights to Sakhalin in favor of Russia in exchange for Russia giving up all rights to the Kuril Islands in favor of Japan.”
It was the beginning. The rest you can find here: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuril_Islands_dispute">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuril_Islands_dispute</a><!-- m -->
I remember to read a short info on the problem in “Argumenti i fakti” somewhere between 1987 and 1989, and I did not get an impression Japanese were wrong even after reading the article in the Soviet press.
Now the most important part from the link provided above:
“In Russia most of the population as well as the mass media strongly oppose any territorial concessions to Japan. Many people oppose any further territorial concessions by Russia to any other countries, particularly after the break-up of the Soviet Union. A common view is that Russia won the Kuril Islands during World War II and is entitled to keep them regardless of the prior history of the disputed territories. Many believe that taking these islands away from Japan was a just reward for Russia's sacrifices during World War II and for Russia's agreement to enter the war against Japan at the request of its Allies.”
The question is what does such attitude have to do with international law and modern values?
Can you prove the popular attitude in Russia does not mean you keep thinking like thieves?

[SiD]

I am glad to see a change in your barbaric attitude to international law. President Medvedev claims his country actions to be in comply with international law. He did not say or imply we should dismiss international law, while you wrote there were “just interests and opportunities” (on 27 Sep 2008).
You asked me about any information on the internet. Here you are:
“The first Russo-Japanese agreement to deal with the status of Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands is the 1855 Treaty of Shimoda which first established official relations between Russia and Japan. Article 2 of the Treaty of Shimoda, which provided for an agreement on borders, states "Henceforth the boundary between the two nations shall lie between the islands of Etorofu and Uruppu. The whole of Etorofu shall belong to Japan; and the Kurile Islands, lying to the north of and including Uruppu, shall belong to Russia." The islands of Kunashiri, Shikotan and the Habomai Islands, that all lie to the south of Etorofu, are not explicitly mentioned in the treaty and were understood at the time to be a non-disputed part of Japan. The Treaty also specified that the island of Sakhalin/Karafuto was not to be partitioned but was to remain under a joint Russo-Japanese condominium.
In a subsequent 1875 Treaty of Saint Petersburg Russia and Japan agreed that Japan would give up all rights to Sakhalin in favor of Russia in exchange for Russia giving up all rights to the Kuril Islands in favor of Japan.”
It was the beginning. The rest you can find here: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuril_Islands_dispute">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuril_Islands_dispute</a><!-- m -->
I remember to read a short info on the problem in “Argumenti i fakti” somewhere between 1987 and 1989, and I did not get an impression Japanese were wrong even after reading the article in the Soviet press.
Now the most important part from the link provided above:
“In Russia most of the population as well as the mass media strongly oppose any territorial concessions to Japan. Many people oppose any further territorial concessions by Russia to any other countries, particularly after the break-up of the Soviet Union. A common view is that Russia won the Kuril Islands during World War II and is entitled to keep them regardless of the prior history of the disputed territories. Many believe that taking these islands away from Japan was a just reward for Russia's sacrifices during World War II and for Russia's agreement to enter the war against Japan at the request of its Allies.”
The question is what does such attitude have to do with international law and modern values?
Can you prove the popular attitude in Russia does not mean you keep thinking like thieves?

I havent changed my attitude. You expect president to tell that we want violate something like US? . Of course everyone will try to follow international law, as long as it is in thier interests. Opportunity arises and international law misteriusly fails. Sovereignity becomes not so much important and territoryal integrity no main value. And then it backs to norm untill next opportunity.
And what about Kuril islands? this article is right about attitude at this matter in Russia.
Anyway it is not related to topic. Lithuania used veto becouse they dont like USSR so much? Parhaps someone will point them in derection of map and they can finaly see that there is Russian federation not USSR.