Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia?

[IamGEORGIA]

wow what sense of humor :lol:
was it joke?

No that was naked georgian truth.

was it?
wow
that means our president really can dawn russien jets with lighting from a..?
Than you should be really careful, mate.. uper

[SiD]

was it?
wow
that means our president really can dawn russien jets with lighting from a..?
Than you should be really careful, mate.. uper

I certainly would. I am frightened to be on same planet with such person not to mention on same continent.

[Lenus]

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://vilochka.com/">http://vilochka.com/</a><!-- m -->

[SVP]

6. yes..in georgia from this time, that politician will be president, who will be anti russian, and pro west...
People never will choose pro russian government any more..we had made such mistakes several times, we had trusted russia for several times... So be calm, take care, and think about your next new president, old Putin..

Aren't you tired of being funny, my little historian? :-) I was laughing rolling on the floor - tell me, WHEN GEORGIA HAD A PRO-RUSSIAN PRESIDENT? Gamsakhurdia, Shevardnadze, Saakashvili? :-) Georgia has never had and does not have and will never have anything pro-russian, especially presidents. Even your opposition is anti-Russian. We have no illusions. By the way, being Pro-West does not mean being anti-Russian. Not all the western countries and their populations are anti-Russian. I am personally, pro-West, in terms of many-many aspects.

I'll not reply to your post any more, because it's a loss of time. You never agree with your opponent (which is abnormal, because in discussion people normally disagree with something but agree with other things, otherwise this is not discussion but just a stubborn repeating of propaganda on both ends), you insist that only you know history, only you know real truth, and etc. This looks childish. Grow up first, then we'll talk.

[SVP]

http://vilochka.com/

I bothered to follow the link and view. He, he, is that ALL they could dig on Russians looting? Not much: one fork and one bycicle - this goes to Russians. Other episodes different - two do not have anything in common with looting - one of them showing soldiers checking georgian men's shoulders, if there are signs of the gun (you must take off your t-shirt for this), the other shows capturing military vehicles from port, which is not denied by the Russian authorities. The rest clips - about Ossetians, not Russians. All armies looted at all times, including highly civilized Germans (sent railcars of art pieces and jewellry from Russia to Germany) and Americans (they sent parcels with German and Russian gems to America), not speaking of us, underdeveloped. But nevertheless, my opinion is that looters must be tried and sentenced to death.

But it's good the clips are online. They definitely show, that there is no Russian occupation. See for yourself. Occupants would just shot down all these annoying people with cameras and questions.

[IamGEORGIA]

6. yes..in georgia from this time, that politician will be president, who will be anti russian, and pro west...
People never will choose pro russian government any more..we had made such mistakes several times, we had trusted russia for several times... So be calm, take care, and think about your next new president, old Putin..

Aren't you tired of being funny, my little historian? :-) I was laughing rolling on the floor - tell me, WHEN GEORGIA HAD A PRO-RUSSIAN PRESIDENT? Gamsakhurdia, Shevardnadze, Saakashvili? :-) Georgia has never had and does not have and will never have anything pro-russian, especially presidents. Even your opposition is anti-Russian. We have no illusions. By the way, being Pro-West does not mean being anti-Russian. Not all the western countries and their populations are anti-Russian. I am personally, pro-West, in terms of many-many aspects.

I'll not reply to your post any more, because it's a loss of time. You never agree with your opponent (which is abnormal, because in discussion people normally disagree with something but agree with other things, otherwise this is not discussion but just a stubborn repeating of propaganda on both ends), you insist that only you know history, only you know real truth, and etc. This looks childish. Grow up first, then we'll talk.

Haha,,i think you always try to make some joke ..
Shevardnadze of course..USSR minister..dont remember?
With help of russians shevardnadze and his gang killed firs president and shavrdnadze gave to russia abkhazia..Its simple truth.. uper

Ok Ok..calm down..
Seems you dont have any strong arguments for debate..

[IamGEORGIA]

http://vilochka.com/

I bothered to follow the link and view. He, he, is that ALL they could dig on Russians looting? Not much: one fork and one bycicle - this goes to Russians. Other episodes different - two do not have anything in common with looting - one of them showing soldiers checking georgian men's shoulders, if there are signs of the gun (you must take off your t-shirt for this), the other shows capturing military vehicles from port, which is not denied by the Russian authorities. The rest clips - about Ossetians, not Russians. All armies looted at all times, including highly civilized Germans (sent railcars of art pieces and jewellry from Russia to Germany) and Americans (they sent parcels with German and Russian gems to America), not speaking of us, underdeveloped. But nevertheless, my opinion is that looters must be tried and sentenced to death.

But it's good the clips are online. They definitely show, that there is no Russian occupation. See for yourself. Occupants would just shot down all these annoying people with cameras and questions.

:mrgreen:
No occupation of course..they had come here for piece... :haha OMG

[Lor]

/



Sid - As another great person sad - "Creation of USSR it's creation of the biggest Imprisonment of nations"

This big melting-pot idea was doomed from very beginning. Largely Today's problems has been created in past! SU enslaved smaller nations and their territories - that today went away from Russia.

..........Word "Enslaving" is the Key - it wasn't Asked or motivated others to join, it was Told.

I am sure you recognize the differences.



Now you said-
"But suddenly empire is falling apart. You former compatriots are turning out to be people from other country. And you turn out to be not on Soviet but on foreign soil".

..........So as the saying goes- "start liking or start packing".






PS. Sorry i didn't get this one??? - " How many millions? million more million less, you do not care? "
Maybe this will clear up

About good people-
Losses of good people in Russia are international losses, I am definitely sure of that.
Losses of good friends because of somebody's geo/military ambitions are international losses...

I see only one constructive thing - Instead of war - build better schools, hospitals, humanitarian institutions.



/

[SiD]

Lor do you know what word slave means? So do not throw it lightly.

Now you said-

"But suddenly empire is falling apart. You former compatriots are turning out to be people from other country. And you turn out to be not on Soviet but on foreign soil".

..........So as the saying goes- "start liking or start packing".

It is certainly bright and shiny example of tolerance and humanism. Progressive position from progressive people. I think it was told by collonists to native Americans when they expanded to thier soil.

PS. Sorry i didn't get this one??? - " How many millions? million more million less, you do not care? "
Maybe this will clear up

What i meant that you write about millions good people killed in Russia. How many? 1,2,10 millions? Or it doesnt matter to you? You trow word millions so lightly like you speak about insects.

So i suggest you to follow your own advice.

[Lor]

Lor do you know what word slave means? So do not throw it lightly.

Now you said-

"But suddenly empire is falling apart. You former compatriots are turning out to be people from other country. And you turn out to be not on Soviet but on foreign soil".

..........So as the saying goes- "start liking or start packing".

It is certainly bright and shiny example of tolerance and humanism. Progressive position from progressive people. I think it was told by collonists to native Americans when they expanded to thier soil.

PS. Sorry i didn't get this one??? - " How many millions? million more million less, you do not care? "
Maybe this will clear up

What i meant that you write about millions good people killed in Russia. How many? 1,2,10 millions? Or it doesnt matter to you? You trow word millions so lightly like you speak about insects.

So i suggest you to follow your own advice.

Hold a second -

So as I see you Agreed with this one -"Creation of USSR it's creation of biggest Imprisonment of nations" and with whole melting-pod failure - good.

As i see you understand that all todays problems uppearad because of yesterday bad master plan -good.

But nouuu - you didn't like the saying -"start liking or start packing".
Judging again from today's problems....???

You don't like Colonists - but you are ok with enslavement of Ukraine, Baltik countries, etc???

So ... what side are you on ???


May be this will help to understand

SU - Rolled over and start dominate aggressively over Ukraine - Bolsheviks - Holodomor - Raskylachivne - Nation removal to other lands - books - religion - way of life - so on...

Today-
Ukraine for instance, in 1991 voted on national referendum to go Independent - with impressive 92%.
A lot of russians from Rostov, Taganrog, Krivo-Rog etc moved to Ukraine in 92, received UA passports, seeing that republic having bigger potentials.
Where state declared Ukrainian language as National, and moves being translated to Ukrainian, or Official documents asked to be written in national language.
Where were those russians in 92, that today yelling that "our motherland is Russia"?

Lets review -
Ukrainians in Canada, not trying to Ukranize Canada. They live respecting the Low but praising home culture.
But they are forced to write official documents in English, watch movies in English and stay home enjoying national Canadian Holidays. - OK, no problems.

Answer is simple, if you are true and you don't agree with country low - apply to RF passport and move back to Russia.



P.S - "Lor do you know what word slave means? So do not throw it lightly". Firs who say i am throwing it lightly???

Lets see if it's gonna fit the frame - Slavery is a social-economic system under which certain persons are deprived of personal freedom and compelled to work.

Soviet Union written all over !!!

P.S II

AND YES -
Western - "start liking or start packing" is more HUMAN than Russian- "start liking or I'll Kill you" !




/

[SiD]

So as I see you Agreed with this one -"Creation of USSR it's creation of biggest Imprisonment of nations" and with whole melting-pod failure - good.

Am i said that?

Lor do you know what word slave means? So do not throw it lightly.

I said that!!! so think please why have i said that.

Lets review -
Ukrainians in Canada, not trying to Ukranize Canada. They live respecting the Low but praising home culture.
But they are forced to write official documents in English, watch movies in English and stay home enjoying national Canadian Holidays. - OK, no problems.

Answer is simple, if you are true and you don't agree with country low - apply to RF passport and move back to Russia.

Cool attitude. You REALY GREAT HUMANIST AND FIGHTER FOR RIGHTS OF MINORITIES!
Wenn terrorysing of minorities becomes official policy you do not concerned but if they DARE to oppose misstreatment you ready to bite them. Parhaps you are aiming for Nebel premium in humanism? You certainly have all chances to recieve some kind of revard from nationalistick opressors of minorities.

I do not think you so bad you just lie to yourself and call yourself objective. Sory you SOUND RUSOPHOBIC!!!
I know that you saing that you dont but you REALY sound so.
Parhaps new voting is in order? question: Do lor realy sound Rusophobic? .

[Lor]

So as I see you Agreed with this one -"Creation of USSR it's creation of biggest Imprisonment of nations" and with whole melting-pod failure - good.

Am i said that?

Lor do you know what word slave means? So do not throw it lightly.

I said that!!! so think please why have i said that.

Lets review -
Ukrainians in Canada, not trying to Ukranize Canada. They live respecting the Low but praising home culture.
But they are forced to write official documents in English, watch movies in English and stay home enjoying national Canadian Holidays. - OK, no problems.

Answer is simple, if you are true and you don't agree with country low - apply to RF passport and move back to Russia.

Cool attitude. You REALY GREAT HUMANIST AND FIGHTER FOR RIGHTS OF MINORITIES!
Wenn terrorysing of minorities becomes official policy you do not concerned but if they DARE to oppose misstreatment you ready to bite them. Parhaps you are aiming for Nebel premium in humanism? You certainly have all chances to recieve some kind of revard from nationalistick opressors of minorities.

I do not think you so bad you just lie to yourself and call yourself objective. Sory you SOUND RUSOPHOBIC!!!
I know that you saing that you dont but you REALY sound so.
Parhaps new voting is in order? question: Do lor realy sound Rusophobic? .

P.S - "Lor do you know what word slave means? So do not throw it lightly".
Firs who says i am throwing it lightly???
Lets see if it's gonna fit the frame: - Slavery is a social-economic system under which certain persons are deprived of personal freedom and compelled to work.

Soviet Union written all over !!!

P.S II -
If i would Russofobik i would never knew so much about this country - I am simply sure that SU was a disaster.

P.S II
AND YES -
Western - "start liking or start packing" is more HUMAN than Russian- "start liking or I'll Kill you" !


/

[SiD]

Lets see if it's gonna fit the frame - Slavery is a social-economic system under which certain persons are deprived of personal freedom and compelled to work.

you can call slave living tool. Slave can be mistreated in every manner possible, killed sold all kinds of anything without any punishment becouse some person owns them, like car, or TV or enything.
If pollitical system is oppressive it doesnt mean that its people are slaves. Of course to justify hatred for such country all kind of lies and exagerations could be spread.

AND YES -
Western - "start liking or start packing" is more HUMAN than Russian- "start liking or I'll Kill you" !

So you finaly admitted it. Good.

Russian- "start liking or I'll Kill you"

interesting statment. Please learn more about Russia before say such nonsense.

By the way

AND YES -
Western - "start liking or start packing"

from that it isnt far to : Do not like government? start liking or start paking, or to your immaginary russian "start liking or I'll Kill you".

[Lor]

Ohh one more thing


..........Word "Enslaving" is the Key - it wasn't Asked or motivated others to join, it was Told.


"What i meant that you write about millions good people killed in Russia.
How many? 1,2,10 millions? Or it doesnt matter to you?
You trow word millions so lightly like you speak about insects."

Hmmmm - so you saying because i didn't gave you "EXACT" number of people that been sent to Siberia or killed because of a different point of view or Expelled in my post i think of Russians as insects.? Strange Logic.
Or you need an exact number in order to be sad of a tragedy??? Twisted !!!



/

[Lor]

Lets see if it's gonna fit the frame - Slavery is a social-economic system under which certain persons are deprived of personal freedom and compelled to work.

you can call slave living tool. Slave can be mistreated in every manner possible, killed sold all kinds of anything without any punishment becouse some person owns them, like car, or TV or enything.
If pollitical system is oppressive it doesnt mean that its people are slaves. Of course to justify hatred for such country all kind of lies and exagerations could be spread.

AND YES -
Western - "start liking or start packing" is more HUMAN than Russian- "start liking or I'll Kill you" !

So you finaly admitted it. Good.

Russian- "start liking or I'll Kill you"

interesting statment. Please learn more about Russia before say such nonsense.

By the way

AND YES -
Western - "start liking or start packing"

from that it isnt far to : Do not like government? start liking or start paking, or to your immaginary russian "start liking or I'll Kill you".

Ohhh i see you took a special interest in this one...
"start liking or I'll Kill you" - it's absolutely Russian way to deal with people.


let's do the poll on this one ...I.
Western - "start liking or start packing" or Russian "start liking or I'll Kill you".


/

[SiD]

..........Word "Enslaving" is the Key - it wasn't Asked or motivated others to join, it was Told.

If you not motivated but told it is called order. Or every soldier must be motivated to move his a....

Hmmmm - so you saying because i didn't gave you "EXACT" number of people that been sent to Siberia or killed because of a different point of view or Expelled in my post i think of Russians as insects.? Strange Logic.
Or you need an exact number in order to be sad of a tragedy??? Twisted !!!

To be sad i need only 1 person to be ujustly killed or sent to siberia.

You have very interesting view on people tragedies. Can you imagine million people sent to siberia? Quite HUGE crowd. But you do not care it is 1 million 100 tousands or 10 millions. Is it small diference between 1 million or 10 millions? 9 million people more or less. That is realy TWISTED!!!!!

[SiD]

Ohhh i see you took a special interest in this one...
"start liking or I'll Kill you" - it's absolutely Russian way to deal with people.

lor are you reading what i write or you see what you want to see?

[Lor]

..........Word "Enslaving" is the Key - it wasn't Asked or motivated others to join, it was Told.

If you not motivated but told it is called order. Or every soldier must be motivated to move his a....

Hmmmm - so you saying because i didn't gave you "EXACT" number of people that been sent to Siberia or killed because of a different point of view or Expelled in my post i think of Russians as insects.? Strange Logic.
Or you need an exact number in order to be sad of a tragedy??? Twisted !!!

To be sad i need only 1 person to be ujustly killed or sent to siberia.

You have very interesting view on people tragedies. Can you imagine million people sent to siberia? QuiteHUGE crowd. But you do not care it is 1 million 100 tousands or 10 millions. Is it small diference between 1 million or 10 millions? 9 million people more or less. That is realy TWISTED!!!!!

Who sad that I do not care about one person tragedy, Surely i do ... as I sad it, on the very beginning.
strange that you trying to say that i don't.... i guess you do that just for sake of an argument.

No need to provide Flat numbers to grave for the loss . All people, I hope understand that.

Only Russia had more than one person killed, number beyond tenths of millions....and still counting.
As a good example of ... "start liking or I'll Kill you" ....

Another point -
If you not motivated but told it is called order. Or every soldier must be motivated to move his a....

I see you applied my Idea of nations, to your idea of Soldiers... Interesting.


Let's read one more time ....

As another great person sad - "Creation of USSR it's creation of biggest Imprisonment of nations"
This big melting-pot idea was doomed from very beginning. Largely Today's problems has been created in past! SU enslaved smaller nations and their territory's - that today went away from Russia.

..........Word Enslaving is the Key - it wasn't Asked or motivated others to join, it was Told.

Clearly on the subject of Nations and territory's - not soldiers....

Never mind


/

[SiD]

SU enslaved smaller nations and their territory's

Parhaps you will explain this words to me? Enslaved smaller nations and thier territories and thier cars and thier cats and thier pants ? . We enslaved every pice of sh... in those countries?
What i ment that if someone is TOLD not encoureged to do something it doesnt mean he is slave.
But hey you want to TELL all Russians to go back to Russia not encourage them to do so. That makes you slaver by your logick.
Yeah. We can count people lost even if they are already tens of millions. Like in ww2. And everyone must be important. Is it so difficult for you to understand?

Stop being RUSOPHOBIC. Or at least admitt it.

[SVP]

Only Russia had more than one person killed, number beyond tenths of millions....and still counting.
As a good example of ... "start liking or I'll Kill you" ....

There's one mistake, or even substitution of concepts. Intentional? Please, understand, Russia was different at different times. Once it was just a group of separate principalities, helpless in front of challenges from the east, west, north and south. Invaded by mongols, swedes, and - don't forget about Polish occupation of Moscow? And many many more examples. Then Russia turned into an empire. Then there was a so-called Revolution. Then there was Soviet Union, and those millions of people you're talking about, were killed in the Soviet Era, namely, the Georgian government era - Stalin's. And all main decisions were taken by non-Russian guys. Tell me, if today's Germany is the same as the Third Reich? And should I, when in dispute with some German person, tell him - you, the Germans, killed millions of Russians, so shut up? This is stupid. Today's Russians have nothing to do with Stalin's crimes, and I'll tell you more - almost every Russian family, including mine, has relatives who were killed by that regime. So, how can you say: Russians killed millions of people? In recent history, there was Gorbachev's Russia, Yeltsin's Russia and Putin's Russia. These are three different countries. For what is happening now, from the 'Russian' side Gorbie and Yeltsin are responsible. Because they were not smart enough, in fact, they were just stupid communists, and used methods they knew. Disintegration of the Soviet Union was inevitable, and I, personally, was for this disintegration ( because you cannot make somebody love you, and if there's no love - time for divorce). But this was to be done not so rapidly, more thinking involved, because first hot problematiuc issues had to be resolved, all papers signed, about borders, no claims, etc. Nothing was done. And the problematic issues started to blossom with blood very soon. In the Soviet Union there was no Russian government, there was multi-national government, which acted against Russian interests in many cases (not speaking of that it killed Russians), like the Crimea problem. Khrushev just gave this Russian territory to the Ukraine, because he was from the Ukraine. And he did it against any existing law. Because, according to law, such issues must be solved by the people (referendum). But what is most sad - not long ago, the Communist regime was being accused of all bad things. Now nobody talks about communist regime, everybody talks about Russians. This smells of neonazism and anti-Russian hysteria. I won't make long lists of wars your countries conducted, and bad behavior of your leaders. You know by yourselves, that there was Roman Empire, British empire, German Empire, French Empire. Just look at the map of the world - all the world speaks European languages - those were your colonies. And I won't remind you, how you treated your "aborigenes" in India, Africa, America. The lists of wars in Europe is a very long one. It's good to know the past, but let's concentrate on the present and future. By the way, where are you from?

[Lor]

Only (I didn't mean only as in UNIQUE, you took this out of a context)Russia had more than one person killed, number beyond tenths of millions....and still counting.
As a good example of ... "start liking or I'll Kill you" ....

There's one mistake, or even substitution of concepts. Intentional? Please, understand, Russia was different at different times. Once it was just a group of separate principalities, helpless in front of challenges from the east, west, north and south. Invaded by mongols, swedes, and - don't forget about Polish occupation of Moscow? And many many more examples. Then Russia turned into an empire. Then there was a so-called Revolution. Then there was Soviet Union, and those millions of people you're talking about, were killed in the Soviet Era, namely, the Georgian government era - Stalin's. And all main decisions were taken by non-Russian guys. Tell me, if today's Germany is the same as the Third Reich? And should I, when in dispute with some German person, tell him - you, the Germans, killed millions of Russians, so shut up? This is stupid. Today's Russians have nothing to do with Stalin's crimes, and I'll tell you more - almost every Russian family, including mine, has relatives who were killed by that regime. So, how can you say: Russians killed millions of people? In recent history, there was Gorbachev's Russia, Yeltsin's Russia and Putin's Russia. These are three different countries. For what is happening now, from the 'Russian' side Gorbie and Yeltsin are responsible. Because they were not smart enough, in fact, they were just stupid communists, and used methods they knew. Disintegration of the Soviet Union was inevitable, and I, personally, was for this disintegration ( because you cannot make somebody love you, and if there's no love - time for divorce). But this was to be done not so rapidly, more thinking involved, because first hot problematiuc issues had to be resolved, all papers signed, about borders, no claims, etc. Nothing was done. And the problematic issues started to blossom with blood very soon. In the Soviet Union there was no Russian government, there was multi-national government, which acted against Russian interests in many cases (not speaking of that it killed Russians), like the Crimea problem. Khrushev just gave this Russian territory to the Ukraine, because he was from the Ukraine. And he did it against any existing law. Because, according to law, such issues must be solved by the people (referendum). But what is most sad - not long ago, the Communist regime was being accused of all bad things. Now nobody talks about communist regime, everybody talks about Russians. This smells of neonazism and anti-Russian hysteria. I won't make long lists of wars your countries conducted, and bad behavior of your leaders. You know by yourselves, that there was Roman Empire, British empire, German Empire, French Empire. Just look at the map of the world - all the world speaks European languages - those were your colonies. And I won't remind you, how you treated your "aborigenes" colonists in India, Africa, America. The lists of wars in Europe is a very long one. It's good to know the past, but let's concentrate on the present and future. By the way, where are you from?

SVP, i agree with most of your statements. I DO know that you can't judge a contemporary country on the mistakes of it's past.

If in Germany, even one political figure will take a course on resurrection of the Third Reich Empire, he will end up in jail the same day. As i see, by speaking to LOTS of Russian people, many people dream about bringing back "the Empire" and modern leaders support that by their actions;

It's sad to hear people in Russia dreaming with nostalgia about Stalin times, even though as you said, their own relatives were killed. In Germany you won't find people even wanting to talk about Nazi times, let alone about resurrection of it!!

Why i judge today's Russia is because of the following:
1) Putin's politics seem aggressive, starting from CHECHNYA(enslavement of other nation:"Start liking or i'll kill you")- if you really disagree with the word enslavement, i encourage you to give me another word to describe Chechnya, maybe "slaughtering" will be more suitable)
2) 8+ years of presidency, a real democracy allows only 8 years as maximum.( I know Medvedev is your president, but the POWER is in Putin's hands)
3)recent destruction of GEORGIA, under the slogan of "peacekeeping"
4)Russian citizens' reaction to this war, cheering for it instead of feeling bad, for me is not a normal reaction towards ANY war.
5)Russia acts like "a tyrant" by not letting the INDEPENDENT EX-soviet republics to do as they please with their lives( joining NATO, EU, ANYTHING... it's their BUSINESS), and acts as IT still owns these countries by continuously interfering in their iternal and external matters .


I am Romanian, but i have lived and worked in more than 10 countries, including Russia,Ukraine( so i SAW the both sides) for extensive period of time. Time enough to have my own opinions.

[chena]

Only Russia had more than one person killed, number beyond tenths of millions....and still counting.
As a good example of ... "start liking or I'll Kill you" ....

There's one mistake, or even substitution of concepts. Intentional? Please, understand, Russia was different at different times. Once it was just a group of separate principalities, helpless in front of challenges from the east, west, north and south. Invaded by mongols, swedes, and - don't forget about Polish occupation of Moscow? And many many more examples. Then Russia turned into an empire. Then there was a so-called Revolution. Then there was Soviet Union, and those millions of people you're talking about, were killed in the Soviet Era, namely, the Georgian government era - Stalin's. And all main decisions were taken by non-Russian guys. Tell me, if today's Germany is the same as the Third Reich? And should I, when in dispute with some German person, tell him - you, the Germans, killed millions of Russians, so shut up? This is stupid. Today's Russians have nothing to do with Stalin's crimes, and I'll tell you more - almost every Russian family, including mine, has relatives who were killed by that regime. So, how can you say: Russians killed millions of people? In recent history, there was Gorbachev's Russia, Yeltsin's Russia and Putin's Russia. These are three different countries. For what is happening now, from the 'Russian' side Gorbie and Yeltsin are responsible. Because they were not smart enough, in fact, they were just stupid communists, and used methods they knew. Disintegration of the Soviet Union was inevitable, and I, personally, was for this disintegration ( because you cannot make somebody love you, and if there's no love - time for divorce). But this was to be done not so rapidly, more thinking involved, because first hot problematiuc issues had to be resolved, all papers signed, about borders, no claims, etc. Nothing was done. And the problematic issues started to blossom with blood very soon. In the Soviet Union there was no Russian government, there was multi-national government, which acted against Russian interests in many cases (not speaking of that it killed Russians), like the Crimea problem. Khrushev just gave this Russian territory to the Ukraine, because he was from the Ukraine. And he did it against any existing law. Because, according to law, such issues must be solved by the people (referendum). But what is most sad - not long ago, the Communist regime was being accused of all bad things. Now nobody talks about communist regime, everybody talks about Russians. This smells of neonazism and anti-Russian hysteria. I won't make long lists of wars your countries conducted, and bad behavior of your leaders. You know by yourselves, that there was Roman Empire, British empire, German Empire, French Empire. Just look at the map of the world - all the world speaks European languages - those were your colonies. And I won't remind you, how you treated your "aborigenes" in India, Africa, America. The lists of wars in Europe is a very long one. It's good to know the past, but let's concentrate on the present and future. By the way, where are you from?

SVP

Before accusing Stalin (as a Georgian) in anti-Russian policies, let me remind you that Georgian territories has been given out like presents to Turkey, Azerbaijan, Armenia and Russia (historically Sochi a georgian territory). My point of view is that Stalin had no nationality he was truly soviet and much more Russian than georgian.
FYI In Georgia more people (per capita) were repressed, killed or died during World War II. I lived in Soviet Union and frankly cant remember Soviet Goverenment being so much international (maybe couple cases).

[SVP]

Lor, I'll reply to your statements and some other questions too, I hope. My article grows huge, but I have to work too, that's why not so fast. Meanwhile, please comment government level support and praise of SS legion fighters in some of the EU members :-) I know about Germany - it's not possible there,not only marches are forbidden, but symbols, books, etc. I have a lot of friends in Germany, both East and West. Though there are neo-nazis, and some people think nazi, but secretly :-)

[SVP]

My point of view is that Stalin had no nationality he was truly soviet and much more Russian than georgian.

I lived in Soviet Union and frankly cant remember Soviet Goverenment being so much international (maybe couple cases).

Sorry, Stalin has a nationality, and it's Georgian :-) You don't accept even hints to the Georgian side, not speaking of facts :-) We , must loudly state, that one of the greatest tyrants of the XXth century was GEORGIAN. Instead you say he was more Russian, than Georgian. Of course. Because only a Russian can be a mass murderer (like Stalin was). We should also add, that the Georgians love Stalin, and the only Stalin monument is in Gory, Georgia.

I also lived in the USSR. And I remember the governments. Of course, by governments we mean Politburo CK KPSS :-) Which actually ruled everything in the Soviet Empire. If we speak of 'nationality", the first "Russian" governments (exactly those, that took Georgia's and Ukraine's short independence back) were 90% Jewish. But anyway, all the branches of power were always multinational. Here is a link <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://vivovoco.rsl.ru/VV/PAPERS/HISTORY/KPSS/ALPHA.HTM">http://vivovoco.rsl.ru/VV/PAPERS/HISTORY/KPSS/ALPHA.HTM</a><!-- m -->

Don't be misguided by some Russian names - they are non-Russians in disguise :-)

[Lor]

Lor, I'll reply to your statements and some other questions too, I hope. My article grows huge, but I have to work too, that's why not so fast. Meanwhile, please comment government level support and praise of SS legion fighters in some of the EU members :-) I know about Germany - it's not possible there,not only marches are forbidden, but symbols, books, etc. I have a lot of friends in Germany, both East and West. Though there are neo-nazis, and some people think nazi, but secretly :-)

I will comment about the SS legion fighters in some of the EU members.

Yes i oppose those 25-40 old people that went on the streets, without seeing how lunatic this action is.
I personally understand a part of these people' feelings. Some of them joined Nazis to revenge their killed/raped mothers/wives/daughters by NKVD. For them personally everything makes sense,they chose the worse from two evils.

I would REALLY disapprove this get together if they would wear or carry any SS nazi flags or uniforms, but:
The event saw veterans attending church service, lay flowers at a war memorial and attend a celebratory concert.


Tell me how threatening they are? They are old and in 5 years, probably won't be any...
Tell me if they're no SS skinheads organizations in Russia, accounting by thousands? Young and angry?

Honestly, not only the SS legion fighters are no threat, but their countries don't represent any. They don't have imperialistic politics, intentions nor any power.