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Should the Ukraine join NATO?
#51
Thanks. Smile
Actually it was 72,5%, my mistake there.

Stil waiting for SiD's responce...
"Europe should switch to nuclear and use the old gas pipes as sewers. The destination should be the Kremlin." @ a reader at timesonline.co.uk
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#52
Lenus Wrote:Thanks. Smile
Actually it was 72,5%, my mistake there.

Stil waiting for SiD's responce...

Quite the mistake...but no matter. Yes you can. I havent said you should or i approve but you deffinetly can.
You should be responsible tough. Your actions effect not only your nation but other nations as well. If you realy want peace than you should not seek membership of military alliance viewed as treat by other country.
But you are independent state and can deside your own destiny. I do not know who is more to blame that you want to join NATO but it is trully sad.
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#53
Lenus Wrote:In such case, my reasoning would be: Ukraine Can Join NATO as they dont have teritorial disputes, and Georgia can Join NATO as people expressed their willing to join the alliance.

Smile

What about the peninsula of Crimea? If Ukraine joins NATO, the subject of its belonging to Russia will come out to surface
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#54
Steven Wrote:
Lenus Wrote:In such case, my reasoning would be: Ukraine Can Join NATO as they dont have teritorial disputes, and Georgia can Join NATO as people expressed their willing to join the alliance.

Smile

What about the peninsula of Crimea? If Ukraine joins NATO, the subject of its belonging to Russia will come out to surface

What about it? If Russia is going to give out the passports and create the ethnic clashes there, then it has to manage to be a peacekeeper and keep that wound open for decades...

I don't think so. It sounds inconcievable to me.
"Europe should switch to nuclear and use the old gas pipes as sewers. The destination should be the Kremlin." @ a reader at timesonline.co.uk
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#55
SiD Wrote:
Lenus Wrote:Thanks. Smile
Actually it was 72,5%, my mistake there.

Stil waiting for SiD's responce...

Quite the mistake...but no matter. Yes you can. I havent said you should or i approve but you deffinetly can.
You should be responsible tough. Your actions effect not only your nation but other nations as well. If you realy want peace than you should not seek membership of military alliance viewed as treat by other country.
But you are independent state and can deside your own destiny. I do not know who is more to blame that you want to join NATO but it is trully sad.

If you are worried about Georgia being responcible, the NATO memebership is a definite cure. Its actions will be controlled by an alliance, not just by Georgia. Which is good. It will promote peace.

NATO is not a threat, its a defence organisation. ANyhow, Russian seems to be more threat to Georgia than NATO, do you agree?

Why do you blame anyone at all, that we want to join NATO?
What is Blaming has to do with it anyway?
"Europe should switch to nuclear and use the old gas pipes as sewers. The destination should be the Kremlin." @ a reader at timesonline.co.uk
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#56
Tell me please, what would be the difference between NATO forces and Russian peacemakers? I think this will only make Georgians feel satisfied morally, and not more.
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#57
Lenus Wrote:
SiD Wrote:
Lenus Wrote:Thanks. Smile
Actually it was 72,5%, my mistake there.

Stil waiting for SiD's responce...

Quite the mistake...but no matter. Yes you can. I havent said you should or i approve but you deffinetly can.
You should be responsible tough. Your actions effect not only your nation but other nations as well. If you realy want peace than you should not seek membership of military alliance viewed as treat by other country.
But you are independent state and can deside your own destiny. I do not know who is more to blame that you want to join NATO but it is trully sad.

If you are worried about Georgia being responcible, the NATO memebership is a definite cure. Its actions will be controlled by an alliance, not just by Georgia. Which is good. It will promote peace.

NATO is not a threat, its a defence organisation. ANyhow, Russian seems to be more threat to Georgia than NATO, do you agree?

Why do you blame anyone at all, that we want to join NATO?
What is Blaming has to do with it anyway?
Lenus you too smart not to understand why to have foreign military alliance at your borders is dengerous.
It is politics you know, when our president is elected his sworn duty is to maintain Russian security not NATOs not USs not Georgian. He must take steps to ensure security of his country and sometimes those steps could be extreamly unpleasant to someone else. That goes for every head of the country and government, yours either. Sometimes those steps could be wrong and bring disaster. (well governments are concerned not only with security but also with territorial entegrity, economy and so on)
About blaming. I meant that i do not know who is more to blame that Georgia sees Russia as treat(Russia, Georgia itself, foreign influence).
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#58
SiD

What military forces to deploy on your own territory is a sovereign choice of a sovereign nation.

Now, Russia, is considering deplying its base in South Ossetia. After That, how can anyone wonder who is responsible for Georgia's NATO membership?

You cannot be so short-memoried not to remember what happenned to us in 1991-1993 years? All three wars were inspirated by Russia, and we dont stand a chance if Russia launches another onslaught on us.

The very logical, straightforward and effective choice for Georgia is to join NATO. All personal choices aside, do you have any other options for my country?

Georgian president sworn on Georgia's security, not Russia's.
"Europe should switch to nuclear and use the old gas pipes as sewers. The destination should be the Kremlin." @ a reader at timesonline.co.uk
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#59
Should the Ukraine join NATO???

I really hope so! Otherwise, Crimea will be the NEXT South Ossetia! Half of job is done!! They are VERY instigated by Russian media for the past 10 years!! Somebody stop this!!!!!!
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#60
Lenus Wrote:SiD

What military forces to deploy on your own territory is a sovereign choice of a sovereign nation.

Now, Russia, is considering deplying its base in South Ossetia. After That, how can anyone wonder who is responsible for Georgia's NATO membership?

You cannot be so short-memoried not to remember what happenned to us in 1991-1993 years? All three wars were inspirated by Russia, and we dont stand a chance if Russia launches another onslaught on us.

The very logical, straightforward and effective choice for Georgia is to join NATO. All personal choices aside, do you have any other options for my country?

Georgian president sworn on Georgia's security, not Russia's.
Russian president sworn on Russia security everything is crystaly clear right? As i told some choices are mistakes and governments must double, tripple check all thier dessigions. I do not think that it was no other choice for your country but to join NATO.
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#61
Georgia was not jeopardized by Russia, as long as Saakashvili attacled Tshivali. That's why, if we speak of security, I would say Russian peacemakers is not a threat to Georgia.
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#62
Lor Wrote:Should the Ukraine join NATO???

I really hope so! Otherwise, Crimea will be the NEXT South Ossetia! Half of job is done!! They are VERY instigated by Russian media for the past 10 years!! Somebody stop this!!!!!!

Eah, it will bring peace and security to the whole world to assure every dog in Russia that NATO is aiming at us, right. I think Europe must think wery carefully on advantages and disadvantages of such desigion, we are on the same continent after all. It wont bring us to war (i sertainly wery hope so) but it wont make us closer (politicly) either. US also needs Russian help in some geopolitical questions. All say that it is 21st century, why then NATO (cold war military block) is growing and growing?
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#63
People just think: Ukraine's NATO membership will worsen international relations and the cold war will start again. Does the world need that only because Ukraine should join NATO? I don't think so
If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is "God is crying." And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell him is "Probably because of something you did."

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#64
Benn Wrote:Georgia was not jeopardized by Russia, as long as Saakashvili attacled Tshivali. That's why, if we speak of security, I would say Russian peacemakers is not a threat to Georgia.

I am afraid, you are mistaken.
Russia has always been a threat. THe whole conflict is created by Russia, and thos bomb was about to explode for the last 17 years.

Now it didi explode, because Russia created the pupped government and allowed them to do whatever they felt to do in Georgia, including terrorist act on our policemen.


How can Russian peacemakets make peace when the conflict's side are Russian Citizens?
Have you seen any footbal match with a referee and one team with the same nationality? I havent.
"Europe should switch to nuclear and use the old gas pipes as sewers. The destination should be the Kremlin." @ a reader at timesonline.co.uk
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#65
Benn Wrote:People just think: Ukraine's NATO membership will worsen international relations and the cold war will start again. Does the world need that only because Ukraine should join NATO? I don't think so

Benn,

I thought it was about majority of populations' decision? Or is it what we think its safer for the world?
If Ukraine does not join NATO, you will have a second South Ossetia in hand very soon.
"Europe should switch to nuclear and use the old gas pipes as sewers. The destination should be the Kremlin." @ a reader at timesonline.co.uk
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#66
SiD Wrote:
Lor Wrote:Should the Ukraine join NATO???

I really hope so! Otherwise, Crimea will be the NEXT South Ossetia! Half of job is done!! They are VERY instigated by Russian media for the past 10 years!! Somebody stop this!!!!!!

Eah, it will bring peace and security to the whole world to assure every dog in Russia that NATO is aiming at us, right. I think Europe must think wery carefully on advantages and disadvantages of such desigion, we are on the same continent after all. It wont bring us to war (i sertainly wery hope so) but it wont make us closer (politicly) either. US also needs Russian help in some geopolitical questions. All say that it is 21st century, why then NATO (cold war military block) is growing and growing?

Sid did you read my post about today's summit? It PROVES that NATO is made out of independent countries, 26 of them, to maintain peace in this world. Today US wanted to isolate Russia, but European countries opposed! NATO decision is one of 26 countries, which i trust more opposed to one government. Plus offers security. Hypothetically let's say that China wants to invade Romania. If Romania wouldn't be in NATO, China wouldn't think twice. If Romania is in NATO, for China means war with 26 countries not with one.

NATO is growing because small countries realize more and more that they need security and they see the advantages of being a NATO member.
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#67
Lor Wrote:Sid did you read my post about today's summit? It PROVES that NATO is made out of independent countries, 26 of them, to maintain peace in this world. Today US wanted to isolate Russia, but European countries opposed! NATO decision is one of 26 countries, which i trust more opposed to one government. Plus offers security. Hypothetically let's say that China wants to invade Romania. If Romania wouldn't be in NATO, China wouldn't think twice. If Romania is in NATO, for China means war with 26 countries not with one.

NATO is growing because small countries realize more and more that they need security and they see the advantages of being a NATO member.

Lor all NATO members can be as free as they want but it is thier military approuching our borders we are worried about.

NATO offers security to ITS MEMBERS, no one offer security to Russia, instead US is placing thier military infrostructure near our borders.

You want security to anyone exept Russia as i see. Georgia and Ukraine is in our sphere of interests for OBVIUS REASONS. If you fail to see such reasons then try to learn them.

You want to cooperate with countries who sees Russia as treat, do you want Russia to cooperate with countries who sees you as treat?
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#68
SiD Wrote:
Lor Wrote:Sid did you read my post about today's summit? It PROVES that NATO is made out of independent countries, 26 of them, to maintain peace in this world. Today US wanted to isolate Russia, but European countries opposed! NATO decision is one of 26 countries, which i trust more opposed to one government. Plus offers security. Hypothetically let's say that China wants to invade Romania. If Romania wouldn't be in NATO, China wouldn't think twice. If Romania is in NATO, for China means war with 26 countries not with one.

NATO is growing because small countries realize more and more that they need security and they see the advantages of being a NATO member.

Lor all NATO members can be as free as they want but it is thier military approuching our borders we are worried about.

NATO offers security to ITS MEMBERS, no one offer security to Russia, instead US is placing thier military infrostructure near our borders.

You want security to anyone exept Russia as i see. Georgia and Ukraine is in our sphere of interests for OBVIUS REASONS. If you fail to see such reasons then try to learn them.

You want to cooperate with countries who sees Russia as treat, do you want Russia to cooperate with countries who sees you as treat?

I should print this post and save it! That's exactly my idea and point why this conflict in Georgia exists!! Russia doesn't really want this country in NATO and also got infuriated to hear about Ukraine wanting to be a member. It's all about what Russia wants!Georgia is in this conflict for not obeying mother Russia, for being a rebel.

Why don't we leave these countries to decide for themselves? If Georgia and Ukraine DO NOT want to be on Russian sphere of influence than WHY force them? For Russia is fine to have these to countries on their sphere. They just take advantage. But for these small countries is not fine AT ALL!!! They want freedom, democracy and complete independence!! And don't tell me they'll have it with Russia as a neighbor because i won't believe you! Look at Poland, Latvia.... ETC... they are doing sooooo well without the Russian "help"

Plus for Russian people is easy to talk! They don't know how it feels to be on the other side! To be taken advantage of and controlled at all times! They are the ones that control.

Please don't take it personal.These are my views!

P.S: I don't think there are AN?Y reasons to be in someone's sphere of influence against your will.
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#69
Lor Wrote:I should print this post and save it! That's exactly my idea and point why this conflict in Georgia exists!! Russia doesn't really want this country in NATO and also got infuriated to hear about Ukraine wanting to be a member. It's all about what Russia wants!Georgia is in this conflict for not obeying mother Russia, for being a rebel.

Why don't we leave these countries to decide for themselves? If Georgia and Ukraine DO NOT want to be on Russian sphere of influence than WHY force them? For Russia is fine to have these to countries on their sphere. They just take advantage. But for these small countries is not fine AT ALL!!! They want freedom, democracy and complete independence!! And don't tell me they'll have it with Russia as a neighbor because i won't believe you! Look at Poland, Latvia.... ETC... they are doing sooooo well without the Russian "help"

Plus for Russian people is easy to talk! They don't know how it feels to be on the other side! To be taken advantage of and controlled at all times! They are the ones that control.

Please don't take it personal.These are my views!

P.S: I don't think there are AN?Y reasons to be in someone's sphere of influence against your will.

You have very ignorant views. Why do you think many ukrainians call russians brothers? Oh i know what you will say, russian propaganda and brainwashing. Of course if someone like Russia he is brainwashed.
To be free and democratic DOESNT mean to be part of military alliance!
Do you know that in some of yours ultra free and extra democratic countries former nazi soldiers are feeling themselves like national heroes? Parhaps you can even name whose countries yourself?
Anyway you always give to anyone what he wants? You some kind if gini? parhaps i can make 3 wishes? Smile .
I think that Ukraine people will be against joining NATO.
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#70
SiD Wrote:
Lor Wrote:I should print this post and save it! That's exactly my idea and point why this conflict in Georgia exists!! Russia doesn't really want this country in NATO and also got infuriated to hear about Ukraine wanting to be a member. It's all about what Russia wants!Georgia is in this conflict for not obeying mother Russia, for being a rebel.

Why don't we leave these countries to decide for themselves? If Georgia and Ukraine DO NOT want to be on Russian sphere of influence than WHY force them? For Russia is fine to have these to countries on their sphere. They just take advantage. But for these small countries is not fine AT ALL!!! They want freedom, democracy and complete independence!! And don't tell me they'll have it with Russia as a neighbor because i won't believe you! Look at Poland, Latvia.... ETC... they are doing sooooo well without the Russian "help"

Plus for Russian people is easy to talk! They don't know how it feels to be on the other side! To be taken advantage of and controlled at all times! They are the ones that control.

Please don't take it personal.These are my views!

P.S: I don't think there are AN?Y reasons to be in someone's sphere of influence against your will.

You have very ignorant views. Why do you think many ukrainians call russians brothers? Oh i know what you will say, russian propaganda and brainwashing. Of course if someone like Russia he is brainwashed.
To be free and democratic DOESNT mean to be part of military alliance!
Do you know that in some of yours ultra free and extra democratic countries former nazi soldiers are feeling themselves like national heroes? Parhaps you can even name whose countries yourself?
Anyway you always give to anyone what he wants? You some kind if gini? parhaps i can make 3 wishes? Smile .
I think that Ukraine people will be against joining NATO.

Most of the Ukrainians are Pro-EU. I can tell you that because i have contacts in USaid stationed in Dnyepropetrovsk which is the most Russian city in Ukraine, so what they observed is total strive towards european standards. (recent polls after Ukrainian Rada elections in 2007)
Talking about Ukr-Rus brotherhood people consider Polish or Czech people not less brothers.
Actually throughout Ukraine as a whole, nobody is fond of Mosovians, considering them rude and self-centered.

The choice of Ukrainians to join NATO is strictly Ukrainian business. So far this country is divided half and half towards NATO, but after the recent Georgian event, i'm sure this balanced will be tipped in favor of NATO.

As you probably heard, citizens of Odessa, another Russian city spoke out for NATO training "Sea Breeze" for about ten years with relaxed feelings and absence of hate.

Also, why Greece being Christian Orthodox(Mecca of Russian Orthodox Christianity) country has no problems being in NATO?

About the nazis being national heroes in "ultra free democratic" countries, i think you should take a look at KGB agents that are still parading today without any sense of guilt for murders and atrocities committed in the past.(I'm sure you won't see them as the killers because you've never been in the other side).
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#71
Lor Wrote:Most of the Ukrainians are Pro-EU. I can tell you that because i have contacts in USaid stationed in Dnyepropetrovsk which is the most Russian city in Ukraine, so what they observed is total strive towards european standards. (recent polls after Ukrainian Rada elections in 2007)
Talking about Ukr-Rus brotherhood people consider Polish or Czech people not less brothers.
Actually throughout Ukraine as a whole, nobody is fond of Mosovians, considering them rude and self-centered.

The choice of Ukrainians to join NATO is strictly Ukrainian business. So far this country is divided half and half towards NATO, but after the recent Georgian event, i'm sure this balanced will be tipped in favor of NATO.

As you probably heard, citizens of Odessa, another Russian city spoke out for NATO training "Sea Breeze" for about ten years with relaxed feelings and absence of hate.

Also, why Greece being Christian Orthodox(Mecca of Russian Orthodox Christianity) country has no problems being in NATO?

About the nazis being national heroes in "ultra free democratic" countries, i think you should take a look at KGB agents that are still parading today without any sense of guilt for murders and atrocities committed in the past.(I'm sure you won't see them as the killers because you've never been in the other side).

If people want to live like in EU (same goes for Russia) that doesnt mean they want to join any military alliances, or you see no difference?
So far that are only speculations. And Ukraine people is not desided to join NATO.
If you read carefully what was said previusly you can find some reasons not to join.
Well can you show me at least one KGB parade?
But your silent approval of nazi feeling heroes is loud enough.
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#72
SiD Wrote:
Lor Wrote:Most of the Ukrainians are Pro-EU. I can tell you that because i have contacts in USaid stationed in Dnyepropetrovsk which is the most Russian city in Ukraine, so what they observed is total strive towards european standards. (recent polls after Ukrainian Rada elections in 2007)
Talking about Ukr-Rus brotherhood people consider Polish or Czech people not less brothers.
Actually throughout Ukraine as a whole, nobody is fond of Mosovians, considering them rude and self-centered.

The choice of Ukrainians to join NATO is strictly Ukrainian business. So far this country is divided half and half towards NATO, but after the recent Georgian event, i'm sure this balanced will be tipped in favor of NATO.

As you probably heard, citizens of Odessa, another Russian city spoke out for NATO training "Sea Breeze" for about ten years with relaxed feelings and absence of hate.

Also, why Greece being Christian Orthodox(Mecca of Russian Orthodox Christianity) country has no problems being in NATO?

About the nazis being national heroes in "ultra free democratic" countries, i think you should take a look at KGB agents that are still parading today without any sense of guilt for murders and atrocities committed in the past.(I'm sure you won't see them as the killers because you've never been in the other side).

If people want to live like in EU (same goes for Russia) that doesnt mean they want to join any military alliances, or you see no difference? Of course i can, but some countries' first step to EU was NATO eg Hungary, Poland, Romania.
So far that are only speculations. And Ukraine people is not desided to join NATO.
If you read carefully what was said previusly you can find some reasons not to join. As i said, leave the Ukraine to decide about it!
Well can you show me at least one KGB parade? Every year, you can see them parading.along with Russian real heroes veterans on the 9th of March! No disrespect to the real Russian soldiers that sacrificed their life on the battlefields for the greater good of your country, but the NKVD and KGB have no rights to march next to them!
But your silent approval of nazi feeling heroes is loud enough.
Who said i approve them?
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#73
We will deside who is worthy to Parade on the red squere not enyone elses.
You remain silent about them. You easily can find hundred sins in Russia but see no obvius sins in other countryes. Ask your housband to translate this russian proverb to you: В чужом глазу соринку видим в своем и бревна незамечаем.
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#74
Not everyone is entering EU trough NATO and knowing situation clever politics must make clever disigeons not make more mistakes. Do they need another problem? Parhaps EU has no more problems and can create new ones just becouse they are bored?
By the way you havent answered do you give anyone whanever he wishes? Answer please.
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#75
SiD Wrote:We will deside who is worthy to Parade on the red squere not enyone elses. EXACTLY Estonia decides who parades on their squares NO ONE ELSE!!!
You remain silent about them. Of course i am not Estonian! Look at previous point NO ONE ELSESmile You easily can find hundred sins in Russia Because it has maaaaany but see no obvius sins in other countryes Oh yes, i see sins in other countries, Is just that NOW we are discussing YOUR country killing and destroying Georgia, no OTHER countries!!!. Ask your housband to translate this russian proverb to you: В чужом глазу соринку видим в своем и бревна незамечаем.
Proverb... NO commentSmile It's just that it wotks both ways.
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