Who started the war in S.Ossetia: Georgia or Russia?

[Lenus]

There is an interesting article in Guardian

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/13/georgia">http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/13/georgia</a><!-- m -->

Russia exaggerating South Ossetian death toll, says human rights group
Tom Parfitt in Vladikavkaz, North Ossetia
guardian.co.uk,
Wednesday August 13 2008 17:29 BST
Article history

Deliberate attempts by the Russian government to exaggerate the number of people killed in the South Ossetia conflict are provoking revenge attacks on Georgian villagers in the breakaway republic, a respected human rights group claimed today.

Anna Neistat of Human Rights Watch (HRW), who is leading a team investigating the humanitarian damage in South Ossetia, told the Guardian that Russian estimates of 2,000 dead in the conflict were "suspicious".

"The figure of 2,000 people killed is very doubtful," she said. "Our findings so far do not in any way confirm the Russian statistics. On the contrary, they suggest the numbers are exaggerated."

Neistat said that HRW investigators had, today and yesterday, recorded cases of Ossetian fighters burning and looting Georgian villages north of the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali.

"The torching of houses in these villages is in some ways a result of the massive Russia propaganda machine which constantly repeats claims of genocide and exaggerates the scale of casualties," she said. "That is then used to justify retribution."

Neistat said that doctors at Tskhinvali hospital had provided figures that 273 wounded people had been treated there during the conflict and a total of 44 dead people had been brought to the city morgue. Russian and South Ossetian officials have claimed that 1,400 people were killed in the first day of fighting, mostly in Tskhinvali.

There have been reports of Ossetians burying relatives in their allotments and there are no lists of the casualties. Neistat stressed that HRW's investigation was not complete but she added: "By day five of a conflict one normally expects that there is some kind of list of the dead and injured, or at least an indication of their age and gender. But here there is no information. Absolutely nothing."

[Eka]

To sid steven and independant

You know such saing - agreements sighned by Russia costs as paper on which this agreement is sighned.As I remeber its Cherchils words.

So Medvedevs not only sighn, but words are not true and whole world is observing this.

We are here observing situation which is turning to be very demigable to Russia. ANd even gas and oil can not stop Europe. During cold wars tensed years they were receiving this oil from them. To whom they will sell it but not to Europe - Iran have its own, China depends on electricity sources and every other they have in desireble ammounts, so Russian will be left alone soon. They will sell there gas to Europe , be isolated ( not as much as in 70-th) there oligarxs will be angry soon on there goverment and so on....( It is not may prognosis but much more clever people from various reserch centre - watch TV , but not russians tv-propaganda and you will understand in what kind of situation your govermant push Russians.)

[Terry]

the second cold war could make Russians cease the supply of gas to Europe. This would be a catastrophe!

[Karl.in.eu]

the second cold war could make Russians cease the supply of gas to Europe. This would be a catastrophe!

That's a good point. Russia has a very big advantage, and that's energy resources. This is why ex-soviet countries won't be EVER fully independent.
Shutting down the gas supply is a very important and powerful non-military weapon for Russia’s political strategy.
PS. For the moment the poll says that Russia did it…

[Terry]

I think that's because we have more Georgians here. But who knows.

By the way, these are not only the soviet countries which are jeopardized of being left without gas, it regards the entire Europe.

[alex01]

What a wonderful media you have! People have to determine the sequence of the events by voting! And what about history questions - by democratic centralism?

[Lenus]

the second cold war could make Russians cease the supply of gas to Europe. This would be a catastrophe!

That's a good point. Russia has a very big advantage, and that's energy resources. This is why ex-soviet countries won't be EVER fully independent.
Shutting down the gas supply is a very important and powerful non-military weapon for Russia’s political strategy.
PS. For the moment the poll says that Russia did it…

Karl

Europe is already working on alternative routes of Gas pipeline. Remember that Russia does not supply it own gas but of Turkmenistan's. All Russia does is to buy the gas for $55 and charge for its gas network system and supply it to europe for some $280.

They have an advantage and they take an advantage. Europe therefore started elaborating over NABUCO and GUEU projects, costing 6 -10 B$ but giving Europe a total freedom of gas dependancy.

Btw, one remark - Georgia is not solely depended on Russian gas. We have some 20-25% of Azerbaijan's Shah-Deniz gas. Surprisingly enough, Azerbaijan itslef is not supplied by Shah-Deniz gas, (as far as I remember).

Europe has to Tap more recources outside continent. Bear in mind, that Lybia has become a vast supplier of oil and gas, Algeria is the same.

All in all, Russia would commit a suicide if it closed the taps.
Gas money is equally improtant to Russia, as gas supply is to Europe.

[Nicholas]

Russia exaggerating South Ossetian death toll, says human rights group

Stop making a monster out of Russia!!

[Hakan G]

What a wonderful media you have! People have to determine the sequence of the events by voting!

This is how it is to be free, and enjoy your personal opinion. ;-)

[Lenus]

Russia exaggerating South Ossetian death toll, says human rights group

Stop making a monster out of Russia!!

I'd love to help you, but I guess you need to address Putin with that request.

[Felice-Rosso]

Of course Georgia has started this war. Firstly It was a genocide of Ossetian people and then Russia attacked georgian military installations!!!! That's why Ossetian people still exist.
You should see it: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=lptVAbw5oos">http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=lptVAbw5oos</a><!-- m -->
Here is an article by Russian journalist Vladimdr Soloviev.
Nazis and their patrons
PUBLISHED 11-08-2008 18:51:

I wake up each morning in the hope that this nightmare is over. However, the war just continues and gathers steam. Now the first conclusions can at last be made. Firstly, Georgia has been preparing for this situation for a long time and these preparations have not been made by Georgia alone. It is clear that it was supported by the most reactionary circles of today’s governing elite in American. This is because as a result of this military aggression it is the Republicans who win, represented by candidate McKein, who managed to not only catch up with Obama but to be in advance of him. Thus, thanks to the heating up of the international situation by Georgia, the hawks are winning. That is why American as an acting power has invested so much money in Georgia.

I should mention that the salaries of Georgian ministers are paid from foreign funds, that 127 American instructors function in Georgia and that 800 Georgian soldiers are being relocated now from Iraq by American Air Forces together with their necessary military equipment and other military cargo. Involved in this there is not the slightest doubt as to the role of Condoliza Rise. She was a constant supporter of Saakashvili’s political ambitions, she visited Tbilisi shortly before the invasion of North Ossetia and she was the first renowned politician to condemn Russia unambiguously. Additionally, the rest of the American political establishment is not so radical as Condoliza and the followers of the "hawk" policy. It is clear why America needs this – they have to solve their modest political questions.

Still, does it mean that the Americans will go to the end in this war, 100 % on the side of Georgia and will start a war with Russia? Hardly. As the Cubans have already shown their support for Russia and it is clear that in a short period of time many Latin American countries may also show their support too. The attitude of Europe is split: France, Italy, Germany and even the UK now have started to say that the role of Saakashvili is not as unambiguous at all and that there was genocide against the Ossetian people. It must be taken into consideration that the situation in Iran is very important to the Americans, and that the Americans will not be able to solve the Iranian problem without the unambiguous position of Russia. So, most likely, it’s not only a possibility of a political victory at the elections for them, but if you wish, an attempt to force Russia to reconsider its position with regard to the Iranian problem. For those who could find my considerations a bit far-fetched, I would like to remind them of the story of the Falkland conflict when the rise in itself of this conflict helped the English conservatives keep power, so a small victorious war is not a discovery, though it does not always work in favor of the powers that be and their chiefs. For instance, Bush Senior was not able to gain re-election after the war in Iraq.

So what did the American instructors teach the Georgian army? Today I have spoken to a friend of mine, who is there (he is from the Special Forces and has seen a lot). He wonders what has happened to the Georgians, as they did not take prisoners: in Ossetia they finished off the elderly people, as well as women and children with control shots. When the Georgian army destroys two thousand people, taking into account that that the total population of South Ossetia is 60 thousand people, you can evidently agree with the words of Dmitry Rogozin, stating that Saakashvili is interested in Georgian land only, and not in the population of autonomous republics. The task of Saakashvili is to free the Georgian land from everyone who is not an ethnic Georgian. It becomes clear what would be the destiny of the people of Abkhazia should the Russians not interfere there. In two-three weeks the existence of the Ossetian population on the territory of the South Ossetia could have been forgotten already. For during the short time of the presence of the Georgian army in Ossetia 5 villages, and the city of Tskhinval were destroyed, and two thousand civilians were killed. The American instructors acted as the chiefs of the Zonder troops. If it was exactly what the Georgian army was taught, so even the SS-men could envy their proficiency. I would like to point out the remarkable resemblance of Saakashvili to Hitler in his phlegmatic rhetoric and impassioned efforts to manipulate the general public opinion.

One single and important thing to be taken into consideration is the role of the Americans in guiding Georgian artillery, aviation and other military facilities to Russian targets. Obviously, the Americans use their navigation and radiolocation space facilities to provide the Georgian side with this information. Still, it could hardly help the Georgians now, though, undoubtedly the Georgian army became a battle worthy one, but certainly, no intelligence is needed to fight against the elderly and children. The Russian Army fights in a different way, the Russian Army fights in "white gloves" , not allowing itself to target innocent civilians in its attacks. That is why no western mass-media, nor Saakashvili, are able to claim for civil victims: what we were able to do in Ossetia, sorrowfully is to only show the results of the genocide in Georgia. The Russian army finely processes with its military targets. Unfortunately bombs can miss their targets, but there is no question of using Multiple rocket launchers on living quarters. We can see that the Russian army bombed the take-off runways that were used for planes going to bomb in South Ossetia, we destroyed radiolocation installations, batteries and other military facilities, and that is true. This is how all modern armies fight now, including the Americans and Israelis as well: minimal losses, and pinpoint attacks. I repeat - no living quarters have been affected. Look at how brilliantly our fleet performed: we were attacked by 4 rocket boats, used defensive fire, sank one vessel and the rest went away. What more could be wished for? Finally, our army fights and shows dignity, and our soldiers became the soldier – a liberator defending a brotherhood Christian and not only Christians but even Muslim people.

Still, what is most surprising: the war in the Caucasus (and there are so many representatives of different nationalities and religions living there) is going on between only orthodox people, between the Georgians and the Ossetians (the Armenians are Christian but they are not orthodox). Despite this, Saakashvili did not think of it for a single moment. The flag of Georgia is behind him, the flag of the European Union is behind him. Yet look, there is no priest, no icon and even not a single appeal to the notions that are sacred to Christians. Sure, Sakashvili is a typical representative of the generation that has lost its native land, and has found nothing in exchange. Not dumb, but absolutely pragmatic, the are Ivans that have forgotten their relatives, who have betrayed all that made the glory and magnificence of the Georgian people. No use in arguing with Vladimir Putin, who stated very sharply that it is impossible to imagine now how the Abkhaz, Ossetian and Georgian people will live in a united family of brotherhood. For generations the slaughter will remain in the memory of the Ossetians. Such things could not be forgotten or excused. Look at the relations between the Armenian and Turkish people, and more than 100 years have passed since that genocide took place. So what is surprising now, when just a few weeks have passed, and the emotional heat is so huge? Obviously, Georgia has been split for years, and the destiny of this military conflict and its end are not important. Conclusively, the co-existence of Abkhaz, Georgians and Ossetians is now impossible for centuries.

I am worried by the intake of countries into a third world war. In fact everything starts with seemingly insignificant local conflicts. For whom may they seem insignificant? For those who watch television – yes, but for those who wake up under bombing runs – certainly not. If this confrontation will grow to be a third world war, its consequences will be horrifying for the whole planet. I would like to remind the "hot-heads" that Russia possesses nuclear weapons and heaven forbid the using of them by one of the countries for any reason. Further reactions will then be hard to stop. The Earth will cease in its existence, and everybody has to know this. In particular, such "wise men" as Saakashvili have to, those who thought that the blitzkrieg will help to solve all their problems. Still, please note no blitzkrieg can ever win over the people, not any. One would think that for 10 years the Americans have taught the Georgian Army, and invested tons of money ($1 billon - only in the last year), but the whole power of the Georgian army could not defeat Ossetia in 10 hours, which is incomparably poor in military forces. It is impossible to defeat the people fighting for their land. To destroy – yes, but to defeat – never.

The last remark, in regard to the reason why Russia could not respond at once within several hours. The international community has always treated Russia by more than triple standards. We had to accomplish all formalities: an application to the Security Council and the carrying out of necessary internal measures, and only upon this there could be made a precise reasonable response. So there cannot be any claims against President Medvdev or the Russian military forces. They performed sharply and with dignity. If we would not react to the situation, if the "neighbors" would understand that they could behave in such a manner, so in this case, I think, the existence of Russia in itself soon could have been brought to doubt. The exterior "parts" would have been torn from us.

I would like to note that we never said that Abkhazia or South Ossetia do not form part of Georgia. We never said that. But we have always said that the example given by Americans to the whole world by acknowledging the independence of Kosovo will echo with a lot of blood in the Caucasus. And I was the one of those saying so. With the deep regret I state that I was right. We all pay now for the double standards of the world politicians and for the foolishness, I could even say, a meanness of today’s political administration in America. For the weakness and a dumb anti-Russian attitude of new European countries, the so-called "new democrats" for whom white is black and black is white.

Then to hear what our Ukrainian brothers are saying was particularly offending. Could it be true that they lost their mind like Bush who in spite of the previous history of the American behavior, has stated that none of the countries is allowed to bomb the territory of any other country. Hearing it to the lips of an American president is particularly cynical. Just like the control shots to the heads of an Ossetian woman, which were supervised by an American instructor.

Once more thing I would like to attract your attention to is the blog of my friend Shota Gorgadze (<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://blogs.mail.ru/mail/grant-pravo/">http://blogs.mail.ru/mail/grant-pravo/</a><!-- m -->). You cannot imagine what meanness he gets from the people who, in spite of living in Russia, have a point of duty to shit on this country, And they bear a passport of a Russian citizen in their pockets. Shame on them! Decide: if you feel that you are on Saakashvili’s side it is better to return your passport and go to some other native land. And if you understand that the people are not guilty for the meanness of their governors, then behave yourself, with the dignity of true Russian citizens.

Vladimir SOLOVIEV

[Khelkafuin]

USA.Georgia is a puppet

[xoroshix]

Georgia has started this war. Firstly It was a genocide of Ossetian people and then Russia attacked georgian military installations!!!! That's why Ossetian people still exist.
You should see it: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=lptVAbw5oos">http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=lptVAbw5oos</a><!-- m -->
Here is an article by Russian journalist Vladimdr Soloviev.

[natalia]

I would recomend you to rely on more neutral sources, rather then on russian propaganda tool Russia Today Chanell, which even didnt bradcast russian bombardments of Georgian cities and ports.

[Lor]

Felice-Rosso( sounds a bit communist Happy Red??) stop posting that journalist's article full of BS and propaganda on all the topics of this forum. What's wrong? You don't have your OWN brains to argue? Just that pathetic journalist? Or maybe you have no more arguments! SOOOOOO lame! :deg

[Benn]

Is there a neutral mass media source today? I doubt. The entire European and US television backs Georgia, in result, only Russia can defend itself.

[Lor]

Is there a neutral mass media source today? I doubt. The entire European and US television backs Georgia, in result, only Russia can defend itself.

Very disappointing way to defend themselves! By hiding what's not convenient and point out what is, in a very exagerated way!! :banghead

I'd rather trust European mass media million times more than Russian one. I talk from experience!!!

[Blame Russia]

No matter what you write you will never know the truth. Georgia and georgians will claim russia for "invading", ruskies will call it "peacekeeping and stabilizating the situation". The only fact is Russia won real war and lost media war. And common people can only suck on it now.

[Lor]

No matter what you write you will never know the truth. Georgia and georgians will claim russia for "invading", ruskies will call it "peacekeeping and stabilizating the situation". The only fact is Russia won real war and lost media war. And common people can only suck on it now.

Unfortunately you are right!!

[Lenus]

No matter what you write you will never know the truth. Georgia and georgians will claim russia for "invading", ruskies will call it "peacekeeping and stabilizating the situation". The only fact is Russia won real war and lost media war. And common people can only suck on it now.

Do you know what the jury pays attention to when there are controversial reports about someone? You check the person's criminal record.

If Russia is to be investigated, and someone is ot quite sure about Russia's deeds in past, let them see the pictures on the following link:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.chechenpress.info/g/thumbnails.php?album=9">http://www.chechenpress.info/g/thumbnails.php?album=9</a><!-- m -->

btw, Chechen conflict is one of the dreadful ones happening recently, stayed out of civilised cosiety's attention.

[Benn]

Is there a neutral mass media source today? I doubt. The entire European and US television backs Georgia, in result, only Russia can defend itself.

Very disappointing way to defend themselves! By hiding what's not convenient and point out what is, in a very exagerated way!! :banghead

I'd rather trust European mass media million times more than Russian one. I talk from experience!!!

What about the case of the 12 years old girl? Remember when the broadcast was interrupted for commercial break

[SiD]

No matter what you write you will never know the truth. Georgia and georgians will claim russia for "invading", ruskies will call it "peacekeeping and stabilizating the situation". The only fact is Russia won real war and lost media war. And common people can only suck on it now.

Do you know what the jury pays attention to when there are controversial reports about someone? You check the person's criminal record.

If Russia is to be investigated, and someone is ot quite sure about Russia's deeds in past, let them see the pictures on the following link:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.chechenpress.info/g/thumbnails.php?album=9">http://www.chechenpress.info/g/thumbnails.php?album=9</a><!-- m -->

btw, Chechen conflict is one of the dreadful ones happening recently, stayed out of civilised cosiety's attention.

Before bring up Chechen wars ( there war 2 of them) you must choose your position , Russia was right or Russia was wrong.

[Benn]

many of the posted photos are obviously photoshopped. I have knowledge in this area.

[Lenus]

Before bring up Chechen wars ( there war 2 of them) you must choose your position , Russia was right or Russia was wrong.

SiD

I know perfectly well how many wars were there in Chechnya.
To answer you question: Nobody can be right when it comes to ethno-cleansing.

Chechens were under genocide by Russians and Russians are wrong, of course.

[Benn]

there you go with more information regarding the first Chechen war
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Chechen_War">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Chechen_War</a><!-- m -->