I want to ask my europeans and ukraines frends to comment recent gas tensions between Russia and Ukraine. I think, that main reason for that situation is political chaos in Ukraine. And, I think, that such irresponsible "democracy" should not be supported by West, but be punished by responsible democratic countries. What do you think about that?[/quote]
I think you are just retelling Putin's lies, my dear Russian999. Your "responsible" government has cut off gas to many Europeans. Just to keep your promisses? Even the former Soviet Uninon never did it during. even during the cold war.[/quote]
why do we bother with someone that siphons gas out of the pipelines permanently ?
should we look into an alternative ?
after these crises, should we help, send subsidies to Ukriane ?
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To Ukrainian.
Yes, the better world is impossible. Ukrainian, you talk about freedom and human rights. Yes to human rights, the ones that based upon justice, cruel but fair one. Freedom - is quite a perosonal, subjective concept. If you're young enough your freedom concept does't include many notiones that an experienced man includes.
You discuss the way of reaching a better world by means of the traditional civilization with its market laws and economy in the whole. But our civilization has been dead enough since the very beginnig of it. The market laws are unjust in fact.
You're talking about a better world quarreling with each other because of the Russia-Ukraine gas conflict. But has there been any conflict or problem for each of us? Isn't that so-called conflict just a case that is one of many conflicts in the world?
You want to build up a better world but how can you do it if don't see the existing world in the whole? How is it possible in our country, I mean Ukraine, when the authorities do everything to upbring the hatred to other nations living in the neighbouring country?
Every passing hour brings the Solar System forty-three thousand miles closer to Globular Cluster M13 in Hercules - and still there are some misfits who insist that there is no such thing as progress.
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Quote:Should I care of Politkovskaya?
ok Don't care about her, but remember u can also be killed in a such a way and when u'll be in hell never reperent about it!!!
u don't have a brain to realize first what a shame it is to be murdered like this, and u never understand what she really was.. a person who said the TRUTH.. becouse this word and its velue is unknown for u...u live in Brainwashing, so go on ur life in KGB mass controling and also SHUT UP!! :lol: :lol: ;-)
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I do believe in Ukraine!!
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What a provocator Dumb u are Sector_Gaza ha!! I demand from EU_forum Administration to be stopped kind of Topics !!!!!! this is unacceptable and I resist it. U should stop making such unmoral subjetc and be more serious!!
whos with me... people this person is a shame for Eu-forums..
to Administration: Please BLOCK SUCH TOPICS OR THIS PARTICIPANT...or be corrective
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I belive in Ukraine too. I also belive in Russia and Belorussia, China and Mexico, North Korea and South Korea... Another word, what else should I believe in? Still Idon'to believe in and trust all the politicians of the world. Will never do.
Every passing hour brings the Solar System forty-three thousand miles closer to Globular Cluster M13 in Hercules - and still there are some misfits who insist that there is no such thing as progress.
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Mata Hari Wrote:Quote:Should I care of Politkovskaya?
ok Don't care about her, but remember u can also be killed in a such a way and when u'll be in hell never reperent about it!!!
u don't have a brain to realize first what a shame it is to be murdered like this, and u never understand what she really was.. a person who said the TRUTH.. becouse this word and its velue is unknown for u...u live in Brainwashing, so go on ur life in KGB mass controling and also SHUT UP!! :lol: :lol: ;-) What a delirium. (Sorry to say this, but there's no god, any god at all, and devil - too, only human beings and other living beings)
Every passing hour brings the Solar System forty-three thousand miles closer to Globular Cluster M13 in Hercules - and still there are some misfits who insist that there is no such thing as progress.
Mata Hari Wrote:What a provocator Dumb u are Sector_Gaza ha!! I demand from EU_forum Administration to be stopped kind of Topics !!!!!! this is unacceptable and I resist it. U should stop making such unmoral subjetc and be more serious!!
whos with me... people this person is a shame for Eu-forums..
to Administration: Please BLOCK SUCH TOPICS OR THIS PARTICIPANT...or be corrective
My dear Mata Hari!
I think the one who has ability to think, see and understand is able to see that there's no aggression from the side of Ukrainians and it is clearly seen from this forum as well. If the one read all the topics and comments, he will see the aggression from Russians when Ukrainians try to make the discussion, Russians do their best to offend Ukrainians and blame our country and goverment.
Dear Russian "brothers"! Our goverment is our choice, the choice of independent country and people. And it's not your business. Your agression makes us smile, because everyone who is able to use his brains can see the real state of things.
Sektor_Gaza, my strong opinion is that if there's a spy and a provocer, it is you! How much Mr. Putin pays you for your "dirty mission"? As I can see, you spend all your time here making stupid and provocative topics, offending Ukrainians and our country! You don't work? Mr. Putin gives you a bone from his table?  But the truth is that Russia lost this war against Ukraine.
And you may continue to spread your stupid thoughts and offends, the fact is the fact..  Just don't be ruined by your own agression!
Moskal1 Wrote:Who lost the war? Definitely, the Ukraine. But the term "looser" is hardly applicable as the country ever since 1991 has never been the subject, but an object of the global politics. In other words, the Ukraine is much more used then uses. And it is approaching to its logical end.
BK Wrote:It saddens me to say it M. Moskal1, but these sick sentiments and warped perception of Ukraine are precisely why Ukraine would rather be with Europe and NATO than with Russia. Friendship, after all, is only possible where there is mutual respect. If you are any indication then Russia does not appear to respect anyone, least of all, itself.
THATS IT! IT IS ALL ABOUT RESPECT AND RUSSIA DO NOT RESPECT ANYONE!
RussianRussianRussian
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Alex Moscow Wrote:I think you are just retelling Putin's lies, my dear Russian999. Your "responsible" government has cut off gas to many Europeans. Just to keep your promisses? Even the former Soviet Uninon never did it during. even during the cold war.
Whose lie is retold by you?
And you do not notice misses of Europe? After all it is Europe still recently applauded Ukraine as to a democracy star and by that created in Ukraine confidence, that it can get up with impunity to all that wants and that it can steal gas, being covered with support of Europe.
Dear Europeans, you too are guilty, that there was this problem.
So do not cry now, that you do not receive gas.
RussianRussianRussian
Unregistered
Expensive Europeans, are a good saying: We are responsible for those whom we have tamed.
And so, if you have tamed Ukraine, have established there Democracy. You bear responsibility that Ukraine creates.
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[/quote]
THATS IT! IT IS ALL ABOUT RESPECT AND RUSSIA DO NOT RESPECT ANYONE![/quote]
O, gush!!! How people can be naive!!! Just tell me - were from respect can came? From nice ideas? From PR campain? From strong desire to be democratic? No. Respect coming from power. Do not tell me, that you respect USA for nice smiling.
So, Russia getting stronger. And you, guys, affreid of this. Simple as that. If you scare of something - you respect it.
Если не ошибаюсь, первоначальная идея ВК была абсолютно здравой. Если Россия с Украиной не будут держаться вместе, то не получат ничего. Если не брать в расчет Иран, то Турция рвется в ЕС и обещает бесперебойный транзит газа из Средней Азии. Мы-то тоже транзитная страна. Но вот Украинский президент - беда для всех.
ee
THATS IT! IT IS ALL ABOUT RESPECT AND RUSSIA DO NOT RESPECT ANYONE![/quote]
O, gush!!! How people can be naive!!! Just tell me - were from respect can came? From nice ideas? From PR campain? From strong desire to be democratic? No. Respect coming from power. Do not tell me, that you respect USA for nice smiling.
So, Russia getting stronger. And you, guys, affreid of this. Simple as that. If you scare of something - you respect it.[/quote]
No. This is based upon a very naive if not childish understanding of fundamental human nature and the meaning of respect. People respect what they value and want for themselves. They destroy what they fear.
RussianRussianRussian
Unregistered
And still our mass media accuse of biassed illumination of events? You esteem here a forum and you understand, that your mass media deform a reality not worse ours
My sister went to Paris and when it with Frenchmen has gone to restaurant, Frenchmen at restaurant have ordered to themselves wines, and to it a glass of vodka and sincerely were surprised, when she has refused to drink this vodka.
Likely all Europeans think, that at us on streets bears go.
And after that post necessarily there will be comments, that I the agent of KGB.
Europeans you lag behind in the representations about Russia.
RussianRussianRussian
Unregistered
Guest Wrote:Если не ошибаюсь, первоначальная идея ВК была абсолютно здравой. Если Россия с Украиной не будут держаться вместе, то не получат ничего. Если не брать в расчет Иран, то Турция рвется в ЕС и обещает бесперебойный транзит газа из Средней Азии. Мы-то тоже транзитная страна. Но вот Украинский президент - беда для всех.
Да давайте в конце концов переходить на Русский язык ))))
Всеравно Русских и Украинцев на этом форуме больше чем европейцев
Moskal, Bravo! A fine piece of writing, I can see you've had good practice while working for the BBC.
As for BK, this "professor" of "international law" seems far too narrow-minded and hateful to be a real academic of jurisprudence. Myself being an international lawyer, I can say that his arguments and conclusions are starkly devoid of scientific reason or logic, instead being based on a sort of low-brow propaganda and intolerance. Freedom is Russia's enemy, yeah, right, Mr Putin and Mr Medvedev as modern Quixotes grimly battling their windmills - the lofty ideal of Freedom. The Evil Empire is upon us, run for the hills.
Hatemongers here, like anywhere else, can't get their minds around the possibility of the object of their hate being in any way right. They will always deny the most obvious facts in favor of their lopsided world view. Their weapon is Goebbels-style diffamation where the most outrageous lies are taken as truth simply because they fall within the preconceived notions of "friend" and "foe".
It has been promising to see that lately many of our friends abroad were taking more pragmatic approaches. Hopefully recent events will help Europe learn tolerance and objectivity when it comes to dealing with Russia.
Guest Wrote:Если не ошибаюсь, первоначальная идея ВК была абсолютно здравой. Если Россия с Украиной не будут держаться вместе, то не получат ничего. Если не брать в расчет Иран, то Турция рвется в ЕС и обещает бесперебойный транзит газа из Средней Азии. Мы-то тоже транзитная страна. Но вот Украинский президент - беда для всех.
Yes, Ukraine and Russia will each benefit if they work together and there are many reasons why they should. The question is what kind of relationship shall they have? In my classes I often make a Comparison with the relationships between Canada, the U.S. and Mexico. Canada and the U.S., often argue about international policy, but they respect each others peoples and have excellent trade relationships. Mexico is completely dominated by the U.S., the U.S. thinks of the Mexican people as cheap unskilled labor and, in general, treats Mexico like a poor relative. Ukraine wants a relationship with Russia like the relationship between the U.S. and Canada. Russia, however, appears to want a relationship with Ukraine like the relationship between the U.S. and Mexico.
Но вот Украинский президент - беда для всех - I agree, and the sooner Ukraine has a new President the better. And the small parties also need to be eliminated --they distort the democratic process. It is my hope that in the next general election Ukrainian will only vote for either Party Regions or Julias Bloc. In passing, I used to be afraid of Party Regions and what they stood for but they have evolved a lot over the past few years and are earning my respect as a legitimate political force. Those who think that fear and respect are the same thing should think some more.
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To BK, Assistant Law professor:
It is too long, I'm afraid, for me to answer all your statements. I'll try nevertheless to respond to some of them the most outrageous.
But before a little bit about my background. Unlike the great majority of the forum, including you, professor, I work as part of a big international PR team based all over the world. We are engaged by Gazprom. And one of our tasks is to provide to the client RELIABLE info on how is Gazprom perceived by media, governments, general public, etc. (as opposed to pleasing info only - just in case for any of your speculation). Inter alia, we provide daily reports on US and EU media coverage regarding Gazprom. All the above said allows me (and anybody else with brain not washed by local media) to believe that I am much better informed than probably anyone else here.
Now, about your statements, assistant professor. I will not quote them to save time and space here:
1. Deputy CEO Medvedev quoted and average annual price as Timo did, which is tied up to the oil prices. In Q1 the Ukraine will pay the average European price of... what it is less 20%. In Q2 it will pay the same price as it would be then less 20% and so forth. On average it is expected to be $230 thoughout the year as in the second half of the year gas prices are expected to go down significantly (6 month time lag after oil prices). Is that understood?
2. RUE was established under pressure from USchenko, when he was much stronger politically than now. Gazprom didn't care at that point how to get profit - directly from the Naftogaz or through RUE or other intermediary. The one who has always cared was/is USchenko and his clan. Americans could be involved too. Another example having nothing to do with Gazprom is Vanco, an American company, that was granted a license to explore and poduce oil on the Crimean shelf. It is 50% owned by Dick Cheney and another 50% is split between USchenko older brother and Firtash (owner of 50% in RUE). About 6 months ago or so Mrs Timo revoked the license from Vanko. This was published and discussed in the Ukraine as Mrs Timo is pretty strong now. To finish with this issue, Gazprom even now wouldn't care less about any intermediaries and would do things with or without them, it the issue wasn't so much politicized by the Ukrainians. It's rather up to them, USchenko at that point and Timo now.
3. Yes Russia did compromize on the transit. Putin did in fact. I think - one of the reasons is much closer ties with Timo than ever before - bad news for the West. The Ukraine was the last country with whom Gazprom has had Soviet type relationship - just think, why? - Not Belorussia, Armenia or any other traditional ally to Russia, but the Ukkraine. Now, they've switched to the market based relationship. For transparency sake and against USchenko again, isn't it?
5. You missed "four", btw, for some reason. Anyway, where did you get from the info that Russia "dropped its claims". No-one from our team heard of it from any offical source (e.g. Russian, EU or Ukrainian). My guess from western mass media, which are "free" of course to distribute any info, including lies and propaganda.
In sum and so on. I wrote about the fact that politics are heavily involved here. But not only from the Russian side, the EU and US are the players as well. The US's ears are sticking out from the whole thing and Europeans in private confirm it. Have you heard about the secret Energy Charter signed by the US and The Ukraine about a month ago or so?
The US put very heavy pressure on EU with regard to Georgia and staff. It took the old Europeans a great deal of effort to withstand. Besides, one of the reasons why they disobeyed is Poland and Baltic states, which already spoiled the EU policy to a significant degree in many aspects. The fact they withstood the pressure doesn't cancel, but confirm the fact of the pressure itself.
About US demonization by Russians and the rest written there. When I lived in London I was surprized to hear such "demonization' from non-English Europeans: French, Spaniards, Italians whom I used to socialize with. About "evil empires" - your usual cliche-based spin. Since the break up of the Soviet Union in 1991 how many wars has Russia waged? The answer is only one and even this one was triggered by Georgian provication. Since then how many wars have been waged and still going on by the "Good Empire" with the help from the UK, its satellite? I'm sure you know the answer, professor. Or maybe I should call you Spin Doctor. That suits you better.
And finally, have you ever though how many people in the Ukraine want to be with NATO and EU? Who asked them, the people of the Ukraine? USchenko consistently denies any referendum on NATO. So, the Ukraine may become part of the EU, specifically the western Ukraine may become part of Poland and Rumania, while the rest will be part of Russia.
now press-conference premier-minister of ukraine and eurocomissar has finished
they make clear all information concerning situation:
now contract means direct contract beetween "Gasprom and ukrainian"Naftogas"without any mediator company "Rosukrenergo",also for this year the middle price will be 228 dollars for Ukraine what means reducion 20%from market price,and old low price 1.7 for transit ,and from 10 o'clock there is start of normal work and no more crisis
the special mention for that the transort sistem of Ukaine is property of Ukraine
and special mention about transparent and complex sistem of functioning business relation beetwen russia and ukraine,and also stabile work becouse contract is signed for ten years,and for european customers it means there is less worries about political issues in here and market relations
european comissar is very grateful to Ukrainian premier-minister and conglatulates ukraine with that
also there are journalists asked questions,and european comissar confirms that there is no information about any unlegal removal of gas of european customers,and that He has clear information about statistics,
Premier-minister added that partnership with European Union is a goal of Ukraine and there is no political meaning in marketing process of transport of gas.
now press-conference premier-minister of ukraine and eurocomissar has finished here in Ukraine
they make clear all information concerning situation:
now contract means direct contract beetween "Gasprom and ukrainian"Naftogas"without any mediator company "Rosukrenergo",also for this year the middle price will be 228 dollars for Ukraine what means reducion 20%from market price,and old low price 1.7 for transit ,and from 10 o'clock there is start of normal work and no more crisis
the special mention for that the transort sistem of Ukaine is property of Ukraine
and special mention about transparent and complex sistem of functioning business relation beetwen russia and ukraine,and also stabile work becouse contract is signed for ten years,and for european customers it means there is less worries about political issues in here and market relations
european comissar is very grateful to Ukrainian premier-minister and conglatulates ukraine with that
also there are journalists asked questions,and european comissar confirms that there is no information about any unlegal removal of gas of european customers,and that He has clear information about statistics,
Premier-minister added that partnership with European Union is a goal of Ukraine and there is no political meaning in marketing process of transport of gas
now press-conference premier-minister of ukraine and eurocomissar has finished
they make clear all information concerning situation:
now contract means direct contract beetween "Gasprom and ukrainian"Naftogas"without any mediator company "Rosukrenergo",also for this year the middle price will be 228 dollars for Ukraine what means reducion 20%from market price,and old low price 1.7 for transit ,and from 10 o'clock there is start of normal work and no more crisis
the special mention for that the transort sistem of Ukaine is property of Ukraine
and special mention about transparent and complex sistem of functioning business relation beetwen russia and ukraine,and also stabile work becouse contract is signed for ten years,and for european customers it means there is less worries about political issues in here and market relations
european comissar is very grateful to Ukrainian premier-minister and conglatulates ukraine with that
also there are journalists asked questions,and european comissar confirms that there is no information about any unlegal removal of gas of european customers,and that He has clear information about statistics,
Premier-minister added that partnership with European Union is a goal of Ukraine and there is no political meaning in marketing process of transport of gas
now press-conference premier-minister of ukraine and eurocomissar has finished
they make clear all information concerning situation:
now contract means direct contract beetween "Gasprom and ukrainian"Naftogas"without any mediator company "Rosukrenergo",also for this year the middle price will be 228 dollars for Ukraine what means reducion 20%from market price,and old low price 1.7 for transit ,and from 10 o'clock there is start of normal work and no more crisis
the special mention for that the transort sistem of Ukaine is property of Ukraine
and special mention about transparent and complex sistem of functioning business relation beetwen russia and ukraine,and also stabile work becouse contract is signed for ten years,and for european customers it means there is less worries about political issues in here and market relations
european comissar is very grateful to Ukrainian premier-minister and conglatulates ukraine with that
also there are journalists asked questions,and european comissar confirms that there is no information about any unlegal removal of gas of european customers,and that He has clear information about statistics,
Premier-minister added that partnership with European Union is a goal of Ukraine and there is no political meaning in marketing process of transport of gas
now press-conference premier-minister of ukraine and eurocomissar has finished
they make clear all information concerning situation:
now contract means direct contract beetween "Gasprom and ukrainian"Naftogas"without any mediator company "Rosukrenergo",also for this year the middle price will be 228 dollars for Ukraine what means reducion 20%from market price,and old low price 1.7 for transit ,and from 10 o'clock there is start of normal work and no more crisis
the special mention for that the transort sistem of Ukaine is property of Ukraine
and special mention about transparent and complex sistem of functioning business relation beetwen russia and ukraine,and also stabile work becouse contract is signed for ten years,and for european customers it means there is less worries about political issues in here and market relations
european comissar is very grateful to Ukrainian premier-minister and conglatulates ukraine with that
also there are journalists asked questions,and european comissar confirms that there is no information about any unlegal removal of gas of european customers,and that He has clear information about statistics,
Premier-minister added that partnership with European Union is a goal of Ukraine and there is no political meaning in marketing process of transport of gas
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