Gas conflict is over. Aftermath (money, power,stupidity)

[manro1]

I am just wandering what good has came out of this conflict for me as Russian?
1. Is Ukraine on its knees now? NO
2. Is Ukraine paying $450 as we wanted to? NO
3. Is Ukraine going to pay us what they supposibly owed to us. NO! RUSSIA DROPED ALL CLAIMS! WHY????
4.Are we still sueing Ukraine in Copengagen court? NO
All this stand off , freezing poeple in Europe I would like to know why?
Why? What was the point?

[Guest]

You as a Russian should be able to ask your president ( Or real president) all this questions.
I would like to hear some answers for sure,
OO but wait even though you are a demokracy you can't ask Why.

[Guest]

I am just wandering what good has came out of this conflict for me as Russian?
1. Is Ukraine on its knees now? NO
2. Is Ukraine paying $450 as we wanted to? NO
3. Is Ukraine going to pay us what they supposibly owed to us. NO! RUSSIA DROPED ALL CLAIMS! WHY????
4.Are we still sueing Ukraine in Copengagen court? NO
All this stand off , freezing poeple in Europe I would like to know why?
Why? What was the point?

Well if it was about money , I cant see how it was good for Russia, power? , not sure ,STUPIDITY YES THAT IS IT.

[BK]

I am just wandering what good has came out of this conflict for me as Russian?
1. Is Ukraine on its knees now? NO
2. Is Ukraine paying $450 as we wanted to? NO
3. Is Ukraine going to pay us what they supposibly owed to us. NO! RUSSIA DROPED ALL CLAIMS! WHY????
4.Are we still sueing Ukraine in Copengagen court? NO
All this stand off , freezing poeple in Europe I would like to know why?
Why? What was the point?

Well if it was about money , I cant see how it was good for Russia, power? , not sure ,STUPIDITY YES THAT IS IT.

I don't think that anyone here will disagree or be too offended if I say (a) that you can call Putin many things, but stupid is certainly not one of them, and, (b) you can call current Ukrainian politics many things too, but smart is certainly not one of them. So what happened? Did Ukraine do something stupid that accidentally turned out to be good for Ukraine OR did Putin do something smart that accidentally turned out to be bad for Russia? Or visa-versa? Take your choice. It doesn't matter!

The question for BOTH Ukraine and Russia now is, where do we go from here? How does EITHER Russia or Ukraine reassure Europe that this a one time thing that will never happen again? The one thing that BOTH Ukraine and Russia can be certain of is that Europe will soon take major and irreversible steps to reduce its use of Russian gas through Ukraine unless it gets some kind of reassurances. I have some ideas, which naturally involve the EU too, but would like to hear other peoples thoughts. The one thing that I will say is that any resolution will have be based on the premise that each side has been totally sincere and is totally right in its position. (And before you tell me that Ukraine and Russia can't possibly both be right, here's my answer to you --you're right! And it doesn't matter.

[Guest]

I am just wandering what good has came out of this conflict for me as Russian?
1. Is Ukraine on its knees now? NO
2. Is Ukraine paying $450 as we wanted to? NO
3. Is Ukraine going to pay us what they supposibly owed to us. NO! RUSSIA DROPED ALL CLAIMS! WHY????
4.Are we still sueing Ukraine in Copengagen court? NO
All this stand off , freezing poeple in Europe I would like to know why?
Why? What was the point?

Well if it was about money , I cant see how it was good for Russia, power? , not sure ,STUPIDITY YES THAT IS IT.

I don't think that anyone here will disagree or be too offended if I say (a) that you can call Putin many things, but stupid is certainly not one of them, and, (b) you can call current Ukrainian politics many things too, but smart is certainly not one of them. So what happened? Did Ukraine do something stupid that accidentally turned out to be good for Ukraine OR did Putin do something smart that accidentally turned out to be bad for Russia? Or visa-versa? Take your choice. It doesn't matter!

The question for BOTH Ukraine and Russia now is, where do we go from here? How does EITHER Russia or Ukraine reassure Europe that this a one time thing that will never happen again? The one thing that BOTH Ukraine and Russia can be certain of is that Europe will soon take major and irreversible steps to reduce its use of Russian gas through Ukraine unless it gets some kind of reassurances. I have some ideas, which naturally involve the EU too, but would like to hear other peoples thoughts. The one thing that I will say is that any resolution will have be based on the premise that each side has been totally sincere and is totally right in its position. (And before you tell me that Ukraine and Russia can't possibly both be right, here's my answer to you --you're right! And it doesn't matter.

i AGREE 100% BUT BEFORE WE CAN MOVE ON WE MUST LEARN FROM PAST MISTAKES. LETS LEARN
wHAT DID WE LEARN SO FAR, NOTHING I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHO GAIN WHAT

[BK]

I don't think that anyone here will disagree or be too offended if I say (a) that you can call Putin many things, but stupid is certainly not one of them, and, (b) you can call current Ukrainian politics many things too, but smart is certainly not one of them. So what happened? Did Ukraine do something stupid that accidentally turned out to be good for Ukraine OR did Putin do something smart that accidentally turned out to be bad for Russia? Or visa-versa? Take your choice. It doesn't matter!

The question for BOTH Ukraine and Russia now is, where do we go from here? How does EITHER Russia or Ukraine reassure Europe that this a one time thing that will never happen again? The one thing that BOTH Ukraine and Russia can be certain of is that Europe will soon take major and irreversible steps to reduce its use of Russian gas through Ukraine unless it gets some kind of reassurances. I have some ideas, which naturally involve the EU too, but would like to hear other peoples thoughts. The one thing that I will say is that any resolution will have be based on the premise that each side has been totally sincere and is totally right in its position. (And before you tell me that Ukraine and Russia can't possibly both be right, here's my answer to you --you're right! And it doesn't matter.

i AGREE 100% BUT BEFORE WE CAN MOVE ON WE MUST LEARN FROM PAST MISTAKES. LETS LEARN
wHAT DID WE LEARN SO FAR, NOTHING I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHO GAIN WHAT

From the current situation Both Russia and Ukraine MAY have learned that neither of them can or should assume the support of Europe in thier bilateral disputes. They MAY have learned that agreement is possible even in the face of hostility and different goals. Europe HAS learned that it can not sit back and assume that its interests will protect themselves. As for learning from past mistakes, until someone admits that they made a mistake, what can be learned? Nothing. We have to look at the current situation as "just one of those things." It happened, no one is sure why or how, pointing fingers is pointless, so... what would YOU suggest that the parties do to deal with the PRESENT situation?

[Steven]

I think Russian and Ukrainian authorities should be judged for this conflict. The one who would be proven to be guilty should pay the compensation to countries that suffered (from Eastern Europe)

[Guest]

Could this mess be avoided if we accepted Ukraine into EU?
Than EU would have more to say on how Ukraine handles itself. Ukraine should be in EU IMO.

[Steven]

Could this mess be avoided if we accepted Ukraine into EU?
Than EU would have more to say on how Ukraine handles itself. Ukraine should be in EU IMO.

hmm... you may be right to a certain extent. If Ukraine was a part of the European family, Europeans would partly take control over the Ukrainian gas stations, as one of the EU's most strategic points.

[Guest]

Could this mess be avoided if we accepted Ukraine into EU?
Than EU would have more to say on how Ukraine handles itself. Ukraine should be in EU IMO.

hmm... you may be right to a certain extent. If Ukraine was a part of the European family, Europeans would partly take control over the Ukrainian gas stations, as one of the EU's most strategic points.

Yes, but we try to use Ukraine as barganning chip with Russia. I f Ukraine was in,- what other barganning leverege do we have in negotiasions with Russia?
Ukraine will never be in EU too bad.

[Benn]

Could this mess be avoided if we accepted Ukraine into EU?
Than EU would have more to say on how Ukraine handles itself. Ukraine should be in EU IMO.

hmm... you may be right to a certain extent. If Ukraine was a part of the European family, Europeans would partly take control over the Ukrainian gas stations, as one of the EU's most strategic points.

Yes, but we try to use Ukraine as barganning chip with Russia. I f Ukraine was in,- what other barganning leverege do we have in negotiasions with Russia?
Ukraine will never be in EU too bad.

As I understand you're talking on behalf of entire Europe and you recognize that Ukraine is being used by Europe on their purposes. I don't think it's quite so... I mean Ukranian authorities would have understood that long time ago. It's not by chance that Ukraine does anything for Europe, it expects to be integrated in the European family.

[Guest]

I would like to see Ukraine in EU. Do you think it will actually happen?
And it doesn,t matter what " Ukrainian people expect" ThEY AXPECT Russia to leave them along but it is not going to happen is it?

[BK]

I think that Ukraine eventually will become part of the EU, but not because of its agricultural and industrial potential (which is huge), the high literacy rate of its population, or even because Ukraine's integration might provide Europe with more energy security (which it would) but simply, and perhaps unfortunately, because Europeans would rather not have Russia or a Russian satellite (which is what Ukraine will become if it is not accepted into the EU) as an immediate neighbor. Why? That's an interesting question --and there is no purely rational answer to it.

[Terry]

I think that Ukraine eventually will become part of the EU, but not because of its agricultural and industrial potential (which is huge), the high literacy rate of its population, or even because Ukraine's integration might provide Europe with more energy security (which it would) but simply, and perhaps unfortunately, because Europeans would rather not have Russia or a Russian satellite (which is what Ukraine will become if it is not accepted into the EU) as an immediate neighbor. Why? That's an interesting question --and there is no purely rational answer to it.

why there is an answer for this, BK, but you're right, it's unfortunately. EU doesn't want friendly relations with Russia, since it still considers it a threat. There is an invisible barrier between these two camps, and unless the stupidity passes away, it could lead to an eventual cold war.

[BK]

I think that Ukraine eventually will become part of the EU,... because Europeans would rather not have Russia or a Russian satellite (which is what Ukraine will become if it is not accepted into the EU) as an immediate neighbor. Why? That's an interesting question...

why there is an answer for this, BK, but you're right, it's unfortunately. EU doesn't want friendly relations with Russia, since it still considers it a threat. There is an invisible barrier between these two camps, and unless the stupidity passes away, it could lead to an eventual cold war.

Terry, there are serious cultural difference between Russia and Europe. The fact that Russians (and Ukrainains for that matter) blame the gas crisis in part on Europe illustrates this difference. (From a Western perspective, blaming the EU for the gas crisis is like a restaurant blaming the customer for a waitress's failure to deliver his meal.) Actions are simply perceived differently as are the expectations each has of the other and I have almost given up trying to explain this -its like explaining Bach to the tone deaf.

As you likely know the Russian press has for some time been widely circulating reports about the imminent (and literal) disintegration of the U.S. and the complete economic fall of the West along with the rise of Russia as the leader of a new world order. (These claims are similar to those made for years by the former soviet union.) Nor is this just talk, Putin apparently believes them --this is the only explanation I can find for his "summoning" world leaders to Moscow in the middle of the gas crisis. (He was, of course, ignored, and no Western leaders attended --much to his dismay.) And at the recent economic summit, he blamed the world financial crisis on the U.S. and proclaimed the need for a new world economic order, led, of course, by Russia. More ominious for Westerners, Russian officials have publicly stated Russias willingness/intention to withdraw from various international treaties and even use force, if the international community does not accept its (Russias) claims of soverignty over vast Arctic resources including its energy reserves. And there is much more, e.g., claims that NATO failure are responsible for the increasing heroin addiction in Russia! You will not find such things in mainstream Western press. And, sorry to mention it, but when was the last time you heard of a journalist or civil rights lawyer being shot dead in a European capital? (Over the past dozen or so years more than 200 journalists have been killed in Russia --with NO subsequent arrests and conviction.)

Friendship requires shared fundamental values and goals. It is not clear to the West what Russia's values--or goals--- are. Nor does Russia understand those of the West. It is unfortunate. And I see no solution in the near future.

[SiD]

why there is an answer for this, BK, but you're right, it's unfortunately. EU doesn't want friendly relations with Russia, since it still considers it a threat. There is an invisible barrier between these two camps, and unless the stupidity passes away, it could lead to an eventual cold war.

Terry, there are serious cultural difference between Russia and Europe. The fact that Russians (and Ukrainains for that matter) blame the gas crisis in part on Europe illustrates this difference. (From a Western perspective, blaming the EU for the gas crisis is like a restaurant blaming the customer for a waitress's failure to deliver his meal.) Actions are simply perceived differently as are the expectations each has of the other and I have almost given up trying to explain this -its like explaining Bach to the tone deaf.

As you likely know the Russian press has for some time been widely circulating reports about the imminent (and literal) disintegration of the U.S. and the complete economic fall of the West along with the rise of Russia as the leader of a new world order. (These claims are similar to those made for years by the former soviet union.) Nor is this just talk, Putin apparently believes them --this is the only explanation I can find for his "summoning" world leaders to Moscow in the middle of the gas crisis. (He was, of course, ignored, and no Western leaders attended --much to his dismay.) And at the recent economic summit, he blamed the world financial crisis on the U.S. and proclaimed the need for a new world economic order, led, of course, by Russia. More ominious for Westerners, Russian officials have publicly stated Russias willingness/intention to withdraw from various international treaties and even use force, if the international community does not accept its (Russias) claims of soverignty over vast Arctic resources including its energy reserves. And there is much more, e.g., claims that NATO failure are responsible for the increasing heroin addiction in Russia! You will not find such things in mainstream Western press. And, sorry to mention it, but when was the last time you heard of a journalist or civil rights lawyer being shot dead in a European capital? (Over the past dozen or so years more than 200 journalists have been killed in Russia --with NO subsequent arrests and conviction.)

Friendship requires shared fundamental values and goals. It is not clear to the West what Russia's values--or goals--- are. Nor does Russia understand those of the West. It is unfortunate. And I see no solution in the near future.[/quote]

BK you are lier. Interesting would your style of some wise sage or smart dude or whanever fool someone? I fear it would, if they have not thier own head on the shoulders. I learn SO MUCH new about Putin, political course, culture, press and so one in Russia that i feel like i am living in other demension, or you are. Were did you heard from Putin that he intended to make Russia some leader of new world? I would like to see this interview or press conference or maybe it is in his private documents? And new economic order led by Russia is also bisare thing, were it is said that Russia must lead world economy? I think even man with direst imagination wouldnt imagine Russia so to say not most advance economy to be leeding soon. What for responsible for economic crisis i think even US wont denie that they are at least pratly responsible. And how are things in Afganistan? US and allies stoped drug traffic already? becouse it became even bigger since US started thier "anti terrorists" actions. And so on. Russian course is to be part of world but not world dominated by US and its allies and any attempt to be EQUAL partner and gain respect for its national interests is met with some unreasnable fear and suspicion that you full of, that is what SEPARATING EU and Russia not some mythic differencess or ambitions.

[BK]

Friendship requires shared fundamental values and goals. It is not clear to the West what Russia's values--or goals--- are. Nor does Russia understand those of the West. It is unfortunate. And I see no solution in the near future.[/color][/quote]

Sid: BK you are lier. Interesting would your style of some wise sage or smart dude or whanever fool someone? I fear it would, if they have not thier own head on the shoulders. I learn SO MUCH new about Putin, political course, culture, press and so one in Russia that i feel like i am living in other demension, or you are...

SiD, I do not waste time posting lies --or namecalling. Please read what I write more carefully. You will find support for my statements in the Russian media and in the reports of widely respected NGOs like transparency international. I can understand why you might feel like you are in another dimension. I feel like that whenever I compare media artilces in the international press which are supposedly about the same event. The cultural differences I mention are real. Our discussion of the gas crisis should have convinced you of that. As you may recall, I cannot understand why you (and also many Ukrainians) think that Europe was partly responsible for the recent gas crisis. And you cannot understand why I --and Westerners that I know --disagree. Why is this? Are we all liars? I prefer to think that our disagteement reflects a deep rooted cultural difference. (You will notice I did and do not say that one culture is better than other (You are free to compare life in Russia with life in the West and make your own conclusions). I cannot really explain the difference, it simply is --and it makes communication and therefore trust and cooperation difficult.) Or perhaps it is easier for you to just call me a liar. If so, well that too may reflect another cultural difference.

[Guest]

As you likely know the Russian press has for some time been widely circulating reports about the imminent (and literal) disintegration of the U.S. and the complete economic fall of the West along with the rise of Russia as the leader of a new world order.

?? links,please.

And at the recent economic summit, he blamed the world financial crisis on the U.S. and proclaimed the need for a new world economic order, led, of course, by Russia.

Is the first part of the statement wrong? Although one can hardly blame the other for misfortune or problems they have.
Is the latter part inspired by your own imagination or your can reinforce it by the links? And so on and so forth.

[SiD]

Nor is this just talk, Putin apparently believes them

This is quote from your post, you by unknown reason quite sure that Russian leadership is up to

fall of the West along with the rise of Russia as the leader of a new world order.

while it is not so. He always were tlking about many polar world, and good for me that he speaks in russian and i can understand him without transletor. More than that Russia is unable nowdays to become world leader like US are or were.

"summoning" world leaders to Moscow in the middle of the gas crisis. (He was, of course, ignored, and no Western leaders attended --much to his dismay.)

I hope it is honest mistake becouse i do not think that you can call western leaders world leaders. And by all means they had much more pressing concern than some puny gas crisis, no harm for them yes? And than you ask why i can hold them partly responsible.
And i think that current economic crisis shown the flaws of current economic order how you call it, dont you think that something must be done about it?
There is no major cultural difference, there just must be mutual respect and willingness to cooperete thats all. Friendship requeres both sides it is not one way road. I already told you bethor that your perspective is one sided.

[Steven]

SiD, I wish friendliness between countries could solve the world economic crisis. Unfortunately there is no economic issue that can be solved by relations, that's because globalization is not responsible for everything. However I should agree to a certain extent - because it's impossible to solve the crisis in your country when your neighbours are doing nothing in this context.

[Guest]

There is no major cultural difference, there just must be mutual respect and willingness to cooperete thats all. Friendship requeres both sides it is not one way road. I already told you bethor that your perspective is one sided.[/quote]

SId it is interesting to hear that Russia " wants mutual respect" how much respect did Russia show to EU when they cut the Gas supply?
How much respect was shown to Ukraine demending rediculous price for Gas?
And yes your perspective is one sided as well , but at least BK sees both sides you are too stubborn and thick for that.
Ps.Learn to spell ( it is because -moron)

[Guest]

There is no major cultural difference, there just must be mutual respect and willingness to cooperete thats all. Friendship requeres both sides it is not one way road. I already told you bethor that your perspective is one sided.[/quote]

SId it is interesting to hear that Russia " wants mutual respect" how much respect did Russia show to EU when they cut the Gas supply?
How much respect was shown to Ukraine demending rediculous price for Gas?
And yes your perspective is one sided as well , but at least BK sees both sides you are too stubborn and thick for that.
Ps.Learn to spell ( it is because -moron)

[Guest]

SId it is interesting to hear that Russia " wants mutual respect" how much respect did Russia show to EU when they cut the Gas supply? How much respect was shown to Ukraine demending rediculous price for Gas?And yes your perspective is one sided as well , but at least BK sees both sides you are too stubborn and thick for that. Ps.Learn to spell ( it is because -moron)

It sounds like коммунальная кухня. Do you want gas for nothing? Or are you claiming any privileges? What's the ground for it? Mutual respect?

it is because -moron)

Do you claim respect after that?

[SiD]

SId it is interesting to hear that Russia " wants mutual respect" how much respect did Russia show to EU when they cut the Gas supply?
How much respect was shown to Ukraine demending rediculous price for Gas?
And yes your perspective is one sided as well , but at least BK sees both sides you are too stubborn and thick for that.
Ps.Learn to spell ( it is because -moron)

How much respect i shown wenn defense of our citizens was called "unappropriet use of force" ?( suspect answering to you is unappropriet use of letters.)
Since wenn market price is rediculus? Or you do not think that free market is value of EU? Becouse no one complains in EU you know and do not call thier prices rediculous. (though your posts shurely are).
Parhaps BK sees both sides (who knows but after Putin that wants Russia some leader of new world order i have resons to doubt it) but his posts represent point of view of one side so it wont hurt to have other.

[Guest]

How much respect i shown wenn defense of our citizens was called "unappropriet use of force" ?( suspect answering to you is unappropriet use of letters.)
Since wenn market price is rediculus? Or you do not think that free market is value of EU? Becouse no one complains in EU you know and do not call thier prices rediculous. (though your posts shurely are).
Parhaps BK sees both sides (who knows but after Putin that wants Russia some leader of new world order i have resons to doubt it) but his posts represent point of view of one side so it wont hurt to have other.[/quote]


I re -read your post and came to Conclusion you must be Dyslectic . Your sentenses make no sense.
"who knows but after Putin that wants Russia some leader of new world order i have resons to doubt it" what a hell is that supposed to mean. :banghead
Did you forget to take your medications? :lol: