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Russian modern Geo-politics
#26
Quote:I think you see signs of new russian ideology. "For ship who dont know were it is swimming there is no favorouble winds" (i dont remember wher i saw it but i think that are right words even if i remember not quite correctly). So triumphs are praised and tragedies are mourned. Actualy yo can agree that Soviet Union has many great triuphs achieved sometimes by terrible price.(sometimes by terrible crimes). And do not forget that mistakes are learned.
BTW what a book is it? Is it shoolbook?

Do you know where Russia is swimming? Plz tell us!

Yes I see the signs of new Russian Ideology, but it is focused on russian people....No one will trust such ideology outside Russia...I see the signs and that's why I once told that it is time to finalize the death of Soviet Union Waste......
#27
lashachochua Wrote:This is tragedy and comady of russian reasoning...The only one whom you have to blame that Russia could not manage to become democratic world player is the fault of Russian Government, Kremline, trying to look democratic but act as a tyranny...Russia has never been democratic, Russia has never managed to be ruled without intervention of Russian Generals...This is your trageday..........

You are right in some points but wenn "antidemocratic" and not "pro-western" Putin came in we started to live better. it is fact. So we can compare.

lashachochua Wrote:Sorry but while during 4 years a lot of people were killed in Kosovo you Russians were for Serbia...Sorry but while a lot of people were tortured in Irac, your government was signing contracts with Sadam, even not carring about people killed by this person....You natuarally always have been on wrong side...So do not look for bowels, when the position you hold is against humanity, against basic natural laws like independence, freedom of speech, the right on living and so on....

Yes we were always against invasions into sovereign countries, and that means being on the wrong side? But there is is a proverb " с волками жить по влчьи выть" (to live with wolfs one must be like a wolf).So we learnt some things.
And do not say about morality. How many people are dying from hunger and how could it help to spent military expanses of US that they are spending on thier ocupations? They could save much more people.
Besides you mentioned nothing about E European military instalations of US and independance of Kosovo.





Quote:Good argument! Smile Just stop hurting others and everything will be ok
If someone is aimed to hurt us there is nothing bad to strike back. I think you understand that.
#28
lashachochua Wrote:Do you know where Russia is swimming? Plz tell us!

Yes I see the signs of new Russian Ideology, but it is focused on russian people....No one will trust such ideology outside Russia...I see the signs and that's why I once told that it is time to finalize the death of Soviet Union Waste......

Well we will see where Russia is swimming.
Ewery country must have some kind of ideology. I think it will be about Great country standing for peace, manypolar world, equal and mutual beneficial relationship. or something like that.

Why to force others to trust our ideology? We need it for ourselves at least now. As i said we are not superpower and China can become new one ( sooner than we for certain i think).
#29
Oh God///Western people, your mass-media lie to you. again and again. The lie in every article, in every word. You don't no anything about russia and soviet union. it's a pity
#30
Quote:And do not say about morality. How many people are dying from hunger and how could it help to spent military expanses of US that they are spending on thier ocupations? They could save much more people.
Besides you mentioned nothing about E European military instalations of US and independance of Kosovo.

What russia is doing for those who are dying from hunger? I have not seen anything like World Institute in USA, in Russia...I have not seen russian attepmts to solve this problem, but have seen many American Canadian and European Institutes, organizations working on this issue....So I do not think it is argument for Russia to point on immorality of Westerns...

What about militery spending of USA?! I do agree that it is huge, too huge...But I guess Americans have some information about invadors form other planet, and they are preparing to save the whole world :haha :haha :haha
Yes, demilitarization is crucially important...By the way, the first man in Europe (He was studying there in 19 century) who wrote first paper about economic consequences of demilitarization in the world was Georgian Niko Nikoladze, the founder of Poti, which was bombed by Russian airplanes....

Have you heard, the peace is preparation for the war...This is what game theory teaches.....I do agree the solid theoretical foundation should be formulated in order in the world to be started the process of demilitarization.........
#31
Eugene from Belarus Wrote:Oh God///Western people, your mass-media lie to you. again and again. The lie in every article, in every word. You don't no anything about russia and soviet union. it's a pity


:haha :haha :haha Poor western people :haha :haha :haha

To tell the truth it will be good for everyone not to know anything about Soviet Union...
#32
lashachochua Wrote:What russia is doing for those who are dying from hunger? I have not seen anything like World Institute in USA, in Russia...I have not seen russian attepmts to solve this problem, but have seen many American Canadian and European Institutes, organizations working on this issue....So I do not think it is argument for Russia to point on immorality of Westerns...

Just imagine how many people could be saved if expanses for US iraq compaign were spent to help fight hunger not Sadam. So it is not about saving people it is all about US interests. Same for Kosovo. Why to make precindent? Couldnt they find compromise?

lashachochua Wrote:What about militery spending of USA?! I do agree that it is huge, too huge...But I guess Americans have some information about invadors form other planet, and they are preparing to save the whole world :haha :haha :haha

Huh, great relief. Now i can fell safe becouse US are ready to save our little helpless planet from alien invaders :haha :haha :haha .

lashachochua Wrote:Have you heard, the peace is preparation for the war...This is what game theory teaches.....I do agree the solid theoretical foundation should be formulated in order in the world to be started the process of demilitarization.........

I do not think large demilitarisation is possible. But balance is vital. If one side gains too much advatage it is dengerous.
#33
lashachochua Wrote:
Eugene from Belarus Wrote:Oh God///Western people, your mass-media lie to you. again and again. The lie in every article, in every word. You don't no anything about russia and soviet union. it's a pity


:haha :haha :haha Poor western people :haha :haha :haha

To tell the truth it will be good for everyone not to know anything about Soviet Union...
and about Russia i guess?
#34
Here are some ideas of Puskin about Russian geopolitics. Unfortunatly its in Russian:

'Перед утренней зарею
Братья дружною толпою
Выезжают погулять,
Серых уток пострелять,
Руку правую потешить,
Сорочина в поле спешить,
Иль башку с широких плеч
У татарина отсечь,
Или вытравить из леса
Пятигорского черкеса'.

Пушкина при всех его арапских корнях и восторженных сборниках стихотворений о Кавказе невозможно заподозрить в нелюбви к татарам, черкесам или арабам (сорочина - это сарацин, арабский всадник), просто одной этой строчкой поэт без всякой задней мысли обнажил целый скрытый пласт геополитики Древней Руси.
Source:http://www.inosmi.ru/translation/243715.html
#35
Eka Wrote:Here are some ideas of Puskin about Russian geopolitics. Unfortunatly its in Russian:

'Перед утренней зарею
Братья дружною толпою
Выезжают погулять,
Серых уток пострелять,
Руку правую потешить,
Сорочина в поле спешить,
Иль башку с широких плеч
У татарина отсечь,
Или вытравить из леса
Пятигорского черкеса'.

Пушкина при всех его арапских корнях и восторженных сборниках стихотворений о Кавказе невозможно заподозрить в нелюбви к татарам, черкесам или арабам (сорочина - это сарацин, арабский всадник), просто одной этой строчкой поэт без всякой задней мысли обнажил целый скрытый пласт геополитики Древней Руси.
Source:http://www.inosmi.ru/translation/243715.html

Confuseduper
#36
Quote:What russia is doing for those who are dying from hunger? I have not seen anything like World Institute in USA, in Russia...I have not seen russian attepmts to solve this problem, but have seen many American Canadian and European Institutes, organizations working on this issue....So I do not think it is argument for Russia to point on immorality of Westerns...

What about militery spending of USA?! I do agree that it is huge, too huge...But I guess Americans have some information about invadors form other planet, and they are preparing to save the whole world
Yes, demilitarization is crucially important...By the way, the first man in Europe (He was studying there in 19 century) who wrote first paper about economic consequences of demilitarization in the world was Georgian Niko Nikoladze, the founder of Poti, which was bombed by Russian airplanes....

Have you heard, the peace is preparation for the war...This is what game theory teaches.....I do agree the solid theoretical foundation should be formulated in order in the world to be started the process of demilitarization.........

Hello, my pro-western friends!
You very nicely talking about western politic and not so favorably ( badly) about russian politic. I want to ask you just one question - have you been in USA?
I was in USA for 8 years and I want to tell you about USA, if, in case, you was not be able to visit this country.
In USA you feel yourself like in paradise. Really. But this feeling coming to you only in areas, were living white americans. When you find yourself in latinos or black (afro-americans) areas, you very quikly starting to feel yourself not so comfortably and secure. You may be robbed, raped or killed.
So, what I want to tell you, guys. Democracy is good only for moral, selforganized and motivated people. They can maintain order and law by themself. But for immoral, disorderly and unmotivated people democracy is bad. There newer will be order and law.Immoral, disorderly and unmotivated people need totalitarian leader, otherwise there will be always Ukrainian haos.
I dont think, that russians, same as georgians, allready get much morality and motivation . Because not so much time passed since Soviet collaps. That is why for Russia now better to be under strong Putin hand. Atleast we are strong. But pity for georgians, who is not moral for democracy yet, but they dont want to be friend with totalitarian Russia. They do not have democracy and they do not have power ether.
#37
russian999 Wrote:
Quote:What russia is doing for those who are dying from hunger? I have not seen anything like World Institute in USA, in Russia...I have not seen russian attepmts to solve this problem, but have seen many American Canadian and European Institutes, organizations working on this issue....So I do not think it is argument for Russia to point on immorality of Westerns...

What about militery spending of USA?! I do agree that it is huge, too huge...But I guess Americans have some information about invadors form other planet, and they are preparing to save the whole world
Yes, demilitarization is crucially important...By the way, the first man in Europe (He was studying there in 19 century) who wrote first paper about economic consequences of demilitarization in the world was Georgian Niko Nikoladze, the founder of Poti, which was bombed by Russian airplanes....

Have you heard, the peace is preparation for the war...This is what game theory teaches.....I do agree the solid theoretical foundation should be formulated in order in the world to be started the process of demilitarization.........

Hello, my pro-western friends!
You very nicely talking about western politic and not so favorably ( badly) about russian politic. I want to ask you just one question - have you been in USA?
I was in USA for 8 years and I want to tell you about USA, if, in case, you was not be able to visit this country.
In USA you feel yourself like in paradise. Really. But this feeling coming to you only in areas, were living white americans. When you find yourself in latinos or black (afro-americans) areas, you very quikly starting to feel yourself not so comfortably and secure. You may be robbed, raped or killed.
So, what I want to tell you, guys. Democracy is good only for moral, selforganized and motivated people. They can maintain order and law by themself. But for immoral, disorderly and unmotivated people democracy is bad. There newer will be order and law.Immoral, disorderly and unmotivated people need totalitarian leader, otherwise there will be always Ukrainian haos.
I dont think, that russians, same as georgians, allready get much morality and motivation . Because not so much time passed since Soviet collaps. That is why for Russia now better to be under strong Putin hand. Atleast we are strong. But pity for georgians, who is not moral for democracy yet, but they dont want to be friend with totalitarian Russia. They do not have democracy and they do not have power ether.
Iteresing but old point of wiev.
Lack of democracy doesnot meen that you need " strong heand". In this case you will never be democratic. I am really concerned that from USA you gain such impression only. You mentioned word " yet" toward Georgian democraty and you are right. But toward Russian we even can not use " not democratic yet", we can say " never be democratic with Putin". ONly totaltary and corrupted.
#38
Quote:Iteresing but old point of wiev.
Lack of democracy doesnot meen that you need " strong heand". In this case you will never be democratic. I am really concerned that from USA you gain such impression only. You mentioned word " yet" toward Georgian democraty and you are right. But toward Russian we even can not use " not democratic yet", we can say " never be democratic with Putin". ONly totaltary and corrupted.

Old point of view does not means wrong point of view. I did not say, that I get only bad impression from USA. I say, that in white areas in USA is paradise. Paradise means very, very good place. And I mean it without any sarcasm. But, this paradise only for moral and responsible people. But not for georgians and russians.
For russians and georgians there long way to democracy. People should get morality first. But, on this way georgia lost power and order, same as Ukraine, but russia still have it
#39
russian999 Wrote:
Quote:Iteresing but old point of wiev.
Lack of democracy doesnot meen that you need " strong heand". In this case you will never be democratic. I am really concerned that from USA you gain such impression only. You mentioned word " yet" toward Georgian democraty and you are right. But toward Russian we even can not use " not democratic yet", we can say " never be democratic with Putin". ONly totaltary and corrupted.

Old point of view does not means wrong point of view. I did not say, that I get only bad impression from USA. I say, that in white areas in USA is paradise. Paradise means very, very good place. And I mean it without any sarcasm. But, this paradise only for moral and responsible people. But not for georgians and russians.
For russians and georgians there long way to democracy. People should get morality first. But, on this way georgia lost power and order, same as Ukraine, but russia still have it
Democratic institutions unfortunatly doesnot exists in Russia at all.

Russians wil never come to democracy with Putin - belive.
And about georgians - its yor impression from your media, your imprssions according to your own expiriance or your impressions from some other soures? Smile
I know meaning of word -paradise. I will argue with you - paradise in US is only for people who want to live in paradise. For others its of course no.( I dont live there - but I have several times been there and in Canada too)
#40
Its one more interesting wiev on Russian geoplitics:
Medvedev's 'principles'
In foreign policy, Russia's president is straddling two different centuries.
By the Monitor Editorial Board

from the September 4, 2008 edition

This week, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev outlined five principles guiding Moscow's foreign policy. Here are two: Protect Russians "wherever they are" and attend to "privileged interests" in Moscow's areas of influence. Is this Cold War II? It's more like a throwback to the 19th century, when great powers carved up the world like a pot roast.

That was an era in which Czarist Russia expanded into the Caucasus, Central Asia, and across Siberia. When America told Europe "hands off" in Latin America. When Europe's monarchies sliced up colonies in Africa and Asia.

That era is over, or so the world thought. It's been replaced by an imperfect but vastly preferable system of global institutions, international law, and treaties on human rights – fought for in two world wars.

So Russia's neighbors quake to hear this kind of retrotalk backed up by Moscow's chilling display of force in Georgia.

One of Moscow's flimsy excuses for the invasion was to protect "Russian" citizens. It had been doling out Russian passports to residents of South Ossetia and Abkhazia – Georgia's breakaway provinces which Russia last week illegally recognized as independent.

International law doesn't give one country extraterritorial rights to "protect" its citizens in another country. (The US used the "protect" argument when it invaded Grenada in 1983.) Treatment of minorities is a concern for the resident country, or the global community.

Funny thing; another of Mr. Medvedev's foreign-policy principles is to abide by international law – a 21st-century way of doing things.

But while nobody's been looking, Russia has reportedly handed out passports to ethnic Russians in the Crimea, which is part of independent Ukraine and where Russia has a naval base. Will that become a pretext for annexation? Where does it stop? What about the millions of Russian speakers in the Baltics or neighboring Kazakhstan? (Don't worry, Brooklyn, your Russians are presumably out of range.)

Yes, Russia has its 25 million brothers and sisters "stranded," as Medvedev puts it, in the former states of the Soviet Union. And it has its "privileged interests," especially oil and gas in Central Asia. As if to drive home the point, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin this week closed a deal with Uzbekistan to build a pipeline carrying gas destined for Europe – via Russia of course.

Clearly, Russia is living another of its principles – making sure the world is not just a unipolar one run by the US. But it's failing miserably at its fifth rule, to not isolate itself.

It stands alone in its recognition of Georgia's provinces. Tellingly, when Russia, China, and the countries of Central Asia gathered at a summit last week, none of them endorsed Moscow's actions in Georgia or recognized South Ossetia and Abkhazia as independent.

And while the European Union couldn't unite this week on whether to sanction Russia, it at least agreed to condemn Russia's behavior, send aid to Georgia, and postpone partnership talks with Moscow. It still has other options.

Ostracization appears to be having some effect, as Russia's rich elite – seeing isolation negatively affect their investments – begins to break with the political leadership.

In his principles, Medvedev is trying to straddle two different centuries. It's a long stretch and may well prove too uncomfortable.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0904/p08s01-comv.html">http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0904/p08s01-comv.html</a><!-- m -->
#41
Quote:Democratic institutions unfortunatly doesnot exists in Russia at all.

Russians wil never come to democracy with Putin - belive.
And about georgians - its yor impression from your media, your imprssions according to your own expiriance or your impressions from some other soures?
I know meaning of word -paradise. I will argue with you - paradise in US is only for people who want to live in paradise. For others its of course no.( I dont live there - but I have several times been there and in Canada too)

You are right. Russians not democratic. I know about georgians from my encounters with them in army and in my present life. I agree with you, that paradise only for people, who want it.
I use to be teacher in highschool. And I use to teach kids how to be democratic and free. And I want to tell to you, that on the way to democracy you have to maintain law and order in the classroom. You cannot give full freedom and democracy to the kids, because they are not responsible yet. You have to give freedom to them by small portions. I remember some teachers was trying to give freedom immediatly to children. It was just chaos. Same, as now in Ukraine and Georgia.This teachers was fired eventually.
So, georgians have to change present teacher Saakashvily for more wise and patient teacher.
Putin is totalitarian, but he have wisdom and patience.
#42
yesterday, 09/04/08, Putin was recognised as the biggest person of consequence on the Earth.
“Love is like a booger. You keep picking at it until you get it, then wonder what to do with it.”
3ds Max tutorials | Light Wave 3d tutorials | MAYA tutorials | XSI tutorials
#43
russian999 Wrote:
Quote:Democratic institutions unfortunatly doesnot exists in Russia at all.

Russians wil never come to democracy with Putin - belive.
And about georgians - its yor impression from your media, your imprssions according to your own expiriance or your impressions from some other soures?
I know meaning of word -paradise. I will argue with you - paradise in US is only for people who want to live in paradise. For others its of course no.( I dont live there - but I have several times been there and in Canada too)

You are right. Russians not democratic. I know about georgians from my encounters with them in army and in my present life. I agree with you, that paradise only for people, who want it.
I use to be teacher in highschool. And I use to teach kids how to be democratic and free. And I want to tell to you, that on the way to democracy you have to maintain law and order in the classroom. You cannot give full freedom and democracy to the kids, because they are not responsible yet. You have to give freedom to them by small portions. I remember some teachers was trying to give freedom immediatly to children. It was just chaos. Same, as now in Ukraine and Georgia.This teachers was fired eventually.
So, georgians have to change present teacher Saakashvily for more wise and patient teacher.
Putin is totalitarian, but he have wisdom and patience.
Glad to meet colegue here. I am high school teacher too.I agree with you about " teaching democracy". I will not disscuss with you Saakashvili. If Georgians fill that he must not be elected they will do it by ELACTIONS, but not" change" him. So we begin to learn what democracy is. And you ? are you on the way of learning? Unfortunatlly with Putin, Russia will never not only learn democracy, but it will never start to do it.
Ideas of bolshevizm are very strong in him. Read this:
Почему Владимир Путин так боится Грузии ("American Enterprise Institute", США)
Война между Грузией и Россией по своему характеру является идеологической, а не просто межгосударственной

Энн Аппельбаум (Anne Applebaum), 15 августа 2008
'Это тайна, покрытая мраком, за семью печатями'. В последние дни во многих комментариях вновь прозвучало известное высказывание Черчилля о России. Особой загадкой считается Владимир Путин, бывший президент и нынешний премьер-министр России, человек, который явно продолжает держать в своих руках бразды правления страной.

Чего он хочет? Почему он повел себя так агрессивно в отношении Грузии, гораздо более слабого соседа? Почему он так явно разозлен на Запад? Все это кажется непостижимым.

Но на самом деле, понять склад ума Путина не так сложно: нам прекрасно известно, кто он такой, с тех пор, как Борис Ельцин в 1999 г. впервые назначил его премьер-министром.

В конце концов, одним из его первых дел на новом посту было посещение Лубянки, бывшей штаб-квартиры КГБ и самой известной его тюрьмы, где сегодня размещается ФСБ, российская служба государственной безопасности.

Там, по случаю 82-ой годовщины основания ЧК, ленинской тайной полиции, он торжественно открыл памятную доску в честь Юрия Андропова.

Андропов много лет возглавлял КГБ, а в 1982 г. ненадолго стал генеральным секретарем Коммунистической партии. Однако в России он больше всего запомнился своей теорией о том, как реформировать Советский Союз. Говоря без экивоков, он считал, что пошатнувшееся здоровье советской экономики восстановят 'порядок и дисциплина', внедряемые методами КГБ - аресты диссидентов, суды над коррумпированными чиновниками, культивирование страха.

Никаких глупостей типа 'перестройки' и 'гласности', не говоря уже о присоединении к западным институтам. Все это было явно по душе Путину, бывшему офицеру тайной полиции, который впервые пытался вступить в ряды андроповского КГБ в пятнадцатилетнем возрасте.

Это совсем не значит, что Путин - новый Сталин или даже Андропов, или что Путин хочет восстановить Советский Союз. Но это означает, что Путин, как и большинство людей из его окружения, воспитан на культуре старого КГБ.

Он глубоко верит в то, что государство способно контролировать жизнь нации: нельзя пускать развитие событий на самотек, ими нужно управлять и манипулировать.

Он глубоко, профессионально не доверяет тем, кто считает иначе. В глубине души он не верит в то, что российские граждане сделают правильный политический или экономический выбор, если это будет зависеть только от них.

На практике это означает, что он не верит в то, что рынки могут -или должны - быть подлинно открытыми. Он не верит в непредсказуемые выборы.

Он не верит в то, что горстка журналистов и активистов, продолжающих выступать против централизованного правления Кремля - современный аналог диссидентов андроповской эпохи - способны сказать что-то важное; напротив, он, как и его предшественники из КГБ, считает, что каждый, кто не выражает громогласной поддержки его режиму, - иностранный шпион.

Выступая в 2007 г. на форуме своих сторонников, он заявил: 'К сожалению, находятся еще внутри страны те, кто "шакалит" у иностранных посольств, иностранных дипломатических представительств, рассчитывает на поддержку иностранных фондов и правительств, а не на поддержку своего собственного народа'.

Это было прямое предупреждение в адрес немногих оставшихся в России правозащитников и профсоюзных активистов, что они хорошо поняли. Он, как и его предшественники из советской тайной полиции, по-прежнему убежден, что все важные решения должны приниматься в Москве небольшой, никем не избираемой группой людей, которые знают, как противостоять подобным зарубежным заговорам.

С учетом такого мировоззрения не очень удивительно, что Путин и его окружение столь неприкрыто враждебны в отношении не только Грузии, но и Украины и Эстонии, постсоветских стран, в наибольшей степени противоречащих его видению России.

В конце концов, это страны, в которых прошли настоящие выборы - порой при помощи уличных демонстраций - и в которых к власти могут прийти не только люди, выбранные правящей олигархией.

В некоторых случаях они также продвинулись гораздо дальше по пути подлинных демократических реформ, и, по крайней мере, намерены создать настоящую рыночную экономику, в которой заниматься бизнесом и зарабатывать деньги могут не только люди, выбранные правящей олигархией.

Не только национализм заставляет таких людей, как президент Грузии Михаил Саакашвили или президент Украины Виктор Ющенко, стремиться уйти от политического влияния России и сблизиться с Западом: это также желание сделать их страны более открытыми, более либеральными, подлинно демократическими.

В этом смысле война между Грузией и Россией по своему характеру является идеологической, а не просто межгосударственной. Конечно, у России сохранились 'великодержавные' инстинкты, и, конечно, то презрение, которое российские СМИ проявляют в отношении Саакашвили - это в какой-то степени всего лишь неприязнь большой страны к неповиновению малой. Но неприязнь российского руководства к Грузии также отражает ненависть - и страх - по отношению к той демократии, которую выбрали грузины.

Грузинская 'революция роз', так же, как 'оранжевая революция' на Украине - это именно такое народное восстание, какого больше всего страшится российская элита. Паранойя Путина из-за Грузии, как бы невероятно это ни прозвучало, - это, по сути, паранойя из-за самой России.

Разумеется, это означает, что любая поддержка Запада грузинскому делу лишь усилит российскую паранойю. И, все же, с другой стороны у нас нет выбора: на кону также стоит авторитет Запада.

Если мы недвусмысленно откажемся от Грузии, предав ее в руки путинизма, то этот сигнал будет воспринят правильно - не только в постсоветском мире, но и повсюду - как отказ от идеологического союзника, страны, которая дорогой ценой сделала выбор в пользу Запада.

Однако возникающая ситуация - это не совсем новая 'холодная война', а неизбежная, возможно, очень долгосрочная идеологическая битва с Россией, помимо нормальной экономической и политической конкуренции.

Нам нужно вновь задуматься о том, что значит быть 'Западом', и о том, как западные институты - не только НАТО, но и, скажем, Всемирная служба Би-би-си или Британский совет - могут вновь пригодиться в XXI веке: не только для борьбы с терроризмом, но и для отстаивания западных ценностей.

Энн Аппельбаум - научный сотрудник Американского института предпринимательства
#44
russian999 Wrote:
Quote:What russia is doing for those who are dying from hunger? I have not seen anything like World Institute in USA, in Russia...I have not seen russian attepmts to solve this problem, but have seen many American Canadian and European Institutes, organizations working on this issue....So I do not think it is argument for Russia to point on immorality of Westerns...

What about militery spending of USA?! I do agree that it is huge, too huge...But I guess Americans have some information about invadors form other planet, and they are preparing to save the whole world
Yes, demilitarization is crucially important...By the way, the first man in Europe (He was studying there in 19 century) who wrote first paper about economic consequences of demilitarization in the world was Georgian Niko Nikoladze, the founder of Poti, which was bombed by Russian airplanes....

Have you heard, the peace is preparation for the war...This is what game theory teaches.....I do agree the solid theoretical foundation should be formulated in order in the world to be started the process of demilitarization.........

Hello, my pro-western friends!
You very nicely talking about western politic and not so favorably ( badly) about russian politic. I want to ask you just one question - have you been in USA?
I was in USA for 8 years and I want to tell you about USA, if, in case, you was not be able to visit this country.
In USA you feel yourself like in paradise. Really. But this feeling coming to you only in areas, were living white americans. When you find yourself in latinos or black (afro-americans) areas, you very quikly starting to feel yourself not so comfortably and secure. You may be robbed, raped or killed.
So, what I want to tell you, guys. Democracy is good only for moral, selforganized and motivated people. They can maintain order and law by themself. But for immoral, disorderly and unmotivated people democracy is bad. There newer will be order and law.Immoral, disorderly and unmotivated people need totalitarian leader, otherwise there will be always Ukrainian haos.
I dont think, that russians, same as georgians, allready get much morality and motivation . Because not so much time passed since Soviet collaps. That is why for Russia now better to be under strong Putin hand. Atleast we are strong. But pity for georgians, who is not moral for democracy yet, but they dont want to be friend with totalitarian Russia. They do not have democracy and they do not have power ether.


It is not about whether we are pro-western or not... I am just for western values.......I know the democracy is not just the collection of values, which you have to study by heart... These are the ways of living, collection of habits, customs..... So not like you we are ready to build democracy.....
#45
Quote:Glad to meet colegue here. I am high school teacher too.I agree with you about " teaching democracy". I will not disscuss with you Saakashvili. If Georgians fill that he must not be elected they will do it by ELACTIONS, but not" change" him. So we begin to learn what democracy is. And you ? are you on the way of learning? Unfortunatlly with Putin, Russia will never not only learn democracy, but it will never start to do it.
Ideas of bolshevizm are very strong in him.

I mean that you should change him by election.
Actually, for some nations full democracy is very bad. For example - chiniese. And for russians too.
I think, that you overfocused on bolshevizm. Russians are not communistic allready. But, they have totalitarians consience. Totalitarizm and bolshevizm are not the same things. For example - South Korea after Korean war was under totalitaristic (military) government for few decades. But, its does not stopped her from becaming free country. And totalitarian government saved South Korea from communists invasion. See, how totalitarizm gave power to the country to became free.
Same with Putin - he is not communistic - he is totalitarian, because russia have to be strong.But in Georgia and Ukraine - just chaos and disorder. Look at ukrainian parlament!
#46
russian999 Wrote:
Quote:Glad to meet colegue here. I am high school teacher too.I agree with you about " teaching democracy". I will not disscuss with you Saakashvili. If Georgians fill that he must not be elected they will do it by ELACTIONS, but not" change" him. So we begin to learn what democracy is. And you ? are you on the way of learning? Unfortunatlly with Putin, Russia will never not only learn democracy, but it will never start to do it.
Ideas of bolshevizm are very strong in him.

I mean that you should change him by election.
Actually, for some nations full democracy is very bad. For example - chiniese. And for russians too.
I think, that you overfocused on bolshevizm. Russians are not communistic allready. But, they have totalitarians consience. Totalitarizm and bolshevizm are not the same things. For example - South Korea after Korean war was under totalitaristic (military) government for few decades. But, its does not stopped her from becaming free country. And totalitarian government saved South Korea from communists invasion. See, how totalitarizm gave power to the country to became free.
Same with Putin - he is not communistic - he is totalitarian, because russia have to be strong.But in Georgia and Ukraine - just chaos and disorder. Look at ukrainian parlament!
yes in ukrain they have problems. But what about democracy in Russia? as I understand you dont need it.Or maybe its a "new ideology", new wision or something very new which is unknown in modern world. So exmple of Chinies is not suitable for Russians. They are very discipliaized, they dont drink ( ecxuze me for this) and they have huge work-force. So they are really very specific country.
#47
Terry Wrote:yesterday, 09/04/08, Putin was recognised as the biggest person of consequence on the Earth.

That definetely makes Russia a super power. No doubt. Its leaders are confident and strong-minded.
“The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.”
A really nice forum for Parisians
#48
Quote:It is not about whether we are pro-western or not... I am just for western values.......I know the democracy is not just the collection of values, which you have to study by heart... These are the ways of living, collection of habits, customs..... So not like you we are ready to build democracy.....

Actually, I like you lashachochua . You are educated and your way of arguing with your opponents not forcefull and insulting. But I want you to understand one simple thing - you have to be much more pragmatic. And you should made tour to Harlem in New York and to latinos area in Los Angeles, and to afro-american Oakland. And, when you will see - what democracy brougt to the immoral people, you will change you view for western values for georgians. You will understand, that western values not so good for people, who just left Soviet Union.Georgians and russians need full dose of order and small dose(periodically) of western values
#49
Quote:yes in ukrain they have problems. But what about democracy in Russia? as I understand you dont need it.Or maybe its a "new ideology", new wision or something very new which is unknown in modern world. So exmple of Chinies is not suitable for Russians. They are very discipliaized, they dont drink ( ecxuze me for this) and they have huge work-force. So they are really very specific country.

You dont have to ask for pardon about note of russian drinking problems, you are right. It is oure reality and very big problem. I just mentioned chiniese to remind you, that democracy is good not for all people. Of course, russians and chiniese are different. But russians donot need so much democracy, same as china.
What I want to tell you about Georgians. I think you, guys, do not have many parts of charachters in order to be democratic. For example - you are hot bladded. You have short temper. And you have big pride. Its not so bad charachteristics by themself. But, its difficult to fit in democratic institutions.
#50
russian999 Wrote:
Quote:It is not about whether we are pro-western or not... I am just for western values.......I know the democracy is not just the collection of values, which you have to study by heart... These are the ways of living, collection of habits, customs..... So not like you we are ready to build democracy.....

Actually, I like you lashachochua . You are educated and your way of arguing with your opponents not forcefull and insulting. But I want you to understand one simple thing - you have to be much more pragmatic. And you should made tour to Harlem in New York and to latinos area in Los Angeles, and to afro-american Oakland. And, when you will see - what democracy brougt to the immoral people, you will change you view for western values for georgians. You will understand, that western values not so good for people, who just left Soviet Union.Georgians and russians need full dose of order and small dose(periodically) of western values


So what do you offer? search a person like Putin in georgia and elect him? Do you have any candidate there in Russia for us?...Sorru man, I can not agree with you...YOu are providing bad examples of democracy...But there are a lot of good ones....I think you were following my debate with independent, we talked there a lot about new democracies in Asia...So I can not agree with you...You ask me to be more pragmatic....I am my friend...If I wan not pragmatic, I would have not been able to see the stupidity of Russia...Just wait for a while and than recall me and my dreams..... ;-)




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