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Russian modern Geo-politics
#76
lashachochua Wrote:
SiD Wrote:
lashachochua Wrote:Yo do not have them yes? By the way what will be your position if Ingusheti will demand independence?

Key word IF. I do not know now, i dont know about whole situation there, but i think i will be against it. Still using force is poor choice. Many regions of the world are demanding independance you know that, and i doubt everyone is eager to provide it to everyone. You will cal it double standarts and parhaps will be right but your friends are using them too so we are not so different, we just have different interests. I wrote previusly that now it is right of strong and if you can keep that means that you can keep.


I really do want to understand what the fucking interests Russia has...I am trying to read everything, russian sources and russian geopolitics books, western sources...But still like Russian Soul, I do not understand what are Russia interests, what they want, on what they aim?...

I think you also do not know that, Russian government has no longrun strategy, that's why it is difficult to understand the steps of Russia... Can you imagine China recognizing the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, when the country has itself regional problems...If the chinase position is logical and everyone understands it, why than Russia made this step...Something unlogical is happening with russia yes?...You should agree...
The main russian geopolitic idea - let"s be honesp and let' respect all the subjects of international law
#77
I have not read the 3 last pages, not time yet - but I like to comment on this before I forget:

russian999 Wrote:Actually, for some nations full democracy is very bad. For example - chiniese. And for russians too.

Why would democracy be bad for Chinese?? It has never been tried. Never. So how can you pretend that?

In most of examples, in which totalitarian regime has brought some "law and order" which was needed and the nation after that has became prosperous - could democracy not have done the same??

Look at Spain, for example. Why the dictatorship of Franco did have to last so long? Meant just to fight against communism, there was no need to keep it for many decades!

It is often said that democracy need a middle-class for functioning. In China, there starts to be a significant middle-class. So why not democracy... soon?
#78
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.dni.ru/polit/2008/9/5/148533.html">http://www.dni.ru/polit/2008/9/5/148533.html</a><!-- m -->
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.vz.ru/politics/2008/9/4/204372.html">http://www.vz.ru/politics/2008/9/4/204372.html</a><!-- m -->
read it if you can. its about your mass-media
#79
Quote:Why would democracy be bad for Chinese?? It has never been tried. Never. So how can you pretend that?

In most of examples, in which totalitarian regime has brought some "law and order" which was needed and the nation after that has became prosperous - could democracy not have done the same??

Look at Spain, for example. Why the dictatorship of Franco did have to last so long? Meant just to fight against communism, there was no need to keep it for many decades!

It is often said that democracy need a middle-class for functioning. In China, there starts to be a significant middle-class. So why not democracy... soon?
I think my georgians opponents does not know wery well about the roots of democracy. Were das democracy came from? Its came from protestants way of serving god. Max Weber writings clearly shows this fact. That is why for nation, wich do not have christian-protestant background democracy is not usefull too much. Russians and Georgians are ortodox christians and china - confucionists country. See - we are not protestants, for our mentality democracy is allien.
#80
Eugene from Belarus Wrote:russia had never in its history tried to conquer the territory of western coutries. .

??? :oO

And how did Russia got itself Kenningsberg??

And you obviously think the occupation of Baltic States was ..what? Olympic Games??
how about "reddening" the half of Europe in 1945?

If you want to preach, get your facts straight first.
"Europe should switch to nuclear and use the old gas pipes as sewers. The destination should be the Kremlin." @ a reader at timesonline.co.uk
#81
Lenus Wrote:
Eugene from Belarus Wrote:russia had never in its history tried to conquer the territory of western coutries. .

??? :oO

And how did Russia got itself Kenningsberg??
Soviet Union should stop in 1944 on it's border?)))
Moscow almost always finished wars in the capital of agressor
#82
lashachochua Wrote:To be sure, demand for a serious tone did exist. But the sad fact is that this demand was met not by the liberal intelligentsia, but by the ideologues of Putin's regime. As Russian troops moved into Georgia, Russian television presenters talked with straight faces and straight voices about the hand of the west behind Georgia's attack on its separatist region of South Ossetia.

Parhaps you will provide with some names of popular liberal intelegents who could do something?

What is demand for serius tone?
#83
Eugene from Belarus Wrote:
Lenus Wrote:
Eugene from Belarus Wrote:russia had never in its history tried to conquer the territory of western coutries. .

??? :oO

And how did Russia got itself Kenningsberg??
Soviet Union should stop in 1944 on it's border?)))
Moscow almost always finished wars in the capital of agressor

I noticed you only chose one third of the question Smile

All four countries ended up in the Capital of Agressor, but how many countries snatced a piece of land? ust Russia.

Seriously, Are you telling us that USSR never invaded Poland in 1939?? Or Baltic stated in 1940?? Ir FInnland in 1939?

You are always hungry for more and more land, you cannot get enough of the land, with population drastically getting shrinked, I on't know what are you going to do with your enlarging borders?

It is just greed. Drop it.
"Europe should switch to nuclear and use the old gas pipes as sewers. The destination should be the Kremlin." @ a reader at timesonline.co.uk
#84
Quote:I noticed you only chose one third of the question

All four countries ended up in the Capital of Agressor, but how many countries snatced a piece of land? ust Russia.

Seriously, Are you telling us that USSR never invaded Poland in 1939?? Or Baltic stated in 1940?? Ir FInnland in 1939?

You are always hungry for more and more land, you cannot get enough of the land, with population drastically getting shrinked, I on't know what are you going to do with your enlarging borders?

It is just greed. Drop it.

It is not greed. It is power and independence. For me its so funny to watch, how proud georgians gave up independence to USA. You know, dependence is allways kind of miserable. Now Georgia very much dependent from election in USA. Dont you think, if Obama win at election, will he continue Bush stupid politics? Its pity to be dependent from some different country. They can just dump Georgia for russian promise do not help Nicaragua, Venezuela and Cuba. Just dump you.... Its a pity.
#85
russian999 Wrote:
Quote:I noticed you only chose one third of the question

All four countries ended up in the Capital of Agressor, but how many countries snatced a piece of land? ust Russia.

Seriously, Are you telling us that USSR never invaded Poland in 1939?? Or Baltic stated in 1940?? Ir FInnland in 1939?

You are always hungry for more and more land, you cannot get enough of the land, with population drastically getting shrinked, I on't know what are you going to do with your enlarging borders?

It is just greed. Drop it.

It is not greed. It is power and independence. For me its so funny to watch, how proud georgians gave up independence to USA. You know, dependence is allways kind of miserable. Now Georgia very much dependent from election in USA. Dont you think, if Obama win at election, will he continue Bush stupid politics? Its pity to be dependent from some different country. They can just dump Georgia for russian promise do not help Nicaragua, Venezuela and Cuba. Just dump you.... Its a pity.

You are not answering any of my questions, ok I will accept your defeat in history. Like many Russians, you dont excel in history at all.

If dependance is always a misery, you must remind it to Abkhaz and Ossetian guys. Also remind it to your 32 autonomous republics within Russia.

Now you are saying if Obama loses, Russia will be in a worse position. Its kind of you are also depended on US elections Smile Smile
"Europe should switch to nuclear and use the old gas pipes as sewers. The destination should be the Kremlin." @ a reader at timesonline.co.uk
#86
Quote:You are not answering any of my questions, ok I will accept your defeat in history. Like many Russians, you dont excel in history at all.

If dependance is always a misery, you must remind it to Abkhaz and Ossetian guys. Also remind it to your 32 autonomous republics within Russia.

Now you are saying if Obama loses, Russia will be in a worse position. Its kind of you are also depended on US elections

Okey, now I get the point! You are looking at history from idealistic view point. Namely, from democratic idealism view point. Russians look at the history from very pragmatic (atheistic and totalitaristic) view. So, we can argue about wich view point is more valuable. But, if you look at history just pragmatically - you can clearly see - USA and Georgia allready lost breakaway provinces and will never get it back, even by military way.
#87
russian999 Wrote:But, if you look at history just pragmatically - you can clearly see - USA and Georgia allready lost breakaway provinces and will never get it back, even by military way.

I would have belived it, if you didnt pull out your troops from Gori and other regions of Georgia.
If you dont care about international Law and order, why to obey their orders? You should have restored the Tsarist Russia borders. Attack Turkey next and annihilate Ukraine!

Good luck.
"Europe should switch to nuclear and use the old gas pipes as sewers. The destination should be the Kremlin." @ a reader at timesonline.co.uk
#88
Quote:I would have belived it, if you didnt pull out your troops from Gori and other regions of Georgia.
If you dont care about international Law and order, why to obey their orders? You should have restored the Tsarist Russia borders. Attack Turkey next and annihilate Ukraine!

To be honest with you - during Soviet expansion after 1945 russians only was giving support to the people in diffrent countrys, but not lead anothers nations by themselves. In baltics, Poland, Hungary etc. in governments was not russians, but polish, hungarian, baltics etc. The point is - Soviet domination is possible only when some large portion of population support Soviet.
So, this truth can be traceble in the case of Ukraine. If majority of people there will demand russian protection - we will do it. But in Turkey case - it is not possible. They are selfmaintaning country, even Russia will invade Turkey - this will be crash for russian army.
#89
Lenus Wrote:
russian999 Wrote:But, if you look at history just pragmatically - you can clearly see - USA and Georgia allready lost breakaway provinces and will never get it back, even by military way.

I would have belived it, if you didnt pull out your troops from Gori and other regions of Georgia.
If you dont care about international Law and order, why to obey their orders? You should have restored the Tsarist Russia borders. Attack Turkey next and annihilate Ukraine!

Good luck.

You obviusly dont know what you saing. Orders? We signed treaty you know and must honor it.
Are you warhungry or what? Russia is in no position to start new wars, of course we are in position to effectivly deffend ourselves. So stop crying who will be next, who will be next... In modern world war is quite costly undertaking not to mantion it can turn out to be disaster. And no one will start big war without having allies. How many we have? What i mean is we are defending ourselves and our interests there is no imperial compaign to invade everyone and conquer the world or something.
#90
To my georgians opponents.
Please, make me small favor. I was trying to get some web-adresses of georgians forum in russian language.
But could not find it. Could you give me some.
#91
russian999 Wrote:To my georgians opponents.
Please, make me small favor. I was trying to get some web-adresses of georgians forum in russian language.
But could not find it. Could you give me some.
why do you need that? Is this forum poor or what?
"I believe in making the world safe for our children, but not our children's children, because I don't think children should be having sex." Smile

Web Design Forums - Server-Side Web and Software Development discussions
#92
russian999 Wrote:To my georgians opponents.
Please, make me small favor. I was trying to get some web-adresses of georgians forum in russian language.
But could not find it. Could you give me some.

And to me pls! Russian or English. I've found only <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://nukri.org/index.php?module=pnForum">http://nukri.org/index.php?module=pnForum</a><!-- m -->, but looks like those people now living not in Georgia. Not to insult anybody or something like it. I don't even want to join their forum - I want to understand what the real georgians think about it.
#93
I want to thank you all for a fascinating 10-page topic 8-)

I do not feel able to comment. However, I have recently got sattelite TV, and can watch 'Russia Today.' It is now very obvious to me that the media in Russia, the US and Europe are all very biased :-( I don't know what to believe any more!

There is also still a lot of 'Cold War feeling' around. People in the west view the USSR as having lost the cold war and are no longer a threat - this perception is only recently changing. There are still a lot of jokes - just look at 'Borat.' And most of the Russian writers and people mentioned on this forum: I have never heard of them! Young people in the UK are very poorly educated regarding modern History - I was recently discussing Marxism vs. Soviet Communism with a friend in a pub, and some young men told us to be careful what we said in public. It transpired that they had got Communists confused with Neo-Nazis, and thought we were therefore violent racists :quoi It will be a very long time before most of the west respect Russia and the rest of Eastern Europe - sadly I think the west has 'dumbed down,' and respect will only be gained by force Cry

I would like to learn more about Russian culture and Geo-politics. Perhaps one of you guys should publish a website or make a film..?

I have been to the USA, and it was the most predjudiced and disturbing place I have ever seen: there is little respect for women, low-end jobs are still largely done by black and latino communities, the lack of a welfare state has created a staggering social divide (with poor people queing at charity soup kitchens, young people needing to join the army or do beauty pageants to earn college scholarships, and large amounts of the population having no medical insurance). It is not democracy, because the media is loaded, and huge amounts of the population are not educated enough to make an informed decision. That's before you consider the corruption allegations against Bush...
#94
Quote:I want to thank you all for a fascinating 10-page topic

I do not feel able to comment. However, I have recently got sattelite TV, and can watch 'Russia Today.' It is now very obvious to me that the media in Russia, the US and Europe are all very biased I don't know what to believe any more!

There is also still a lot of 'Cold War feeling' around. People in the west view the USSR as having lost the cold war and are no longer a threat - this perception is only recently changing. There are still a lot of jokes - just look at 'Borat.' And most of the Russian writers and people mentioned on this forum: I have never heard of them! Young people in the UK are very poorly educated regarding modern History - I was recently discussing Marxism vs. Soviet Communism with a friend in a pub, and some young men told us to be careful what we said in public. It transpired that they had got Communists confused with Neo-Nazis, and thought we were therefore violent racists It will be a very long time before most of the west respect Russia and the rest of Eastern Europe - sadly I think the west has 'dumbed down,' and respect will only be gained by force

I would like to learn more about Russian culture and Geo-politics. Perhaps one of you guys should publish a website or make a film..?

I have been to the USA, and it was the most predjudiced and disturbing place I have ever seen: there is little respect for women, low-end jobs are still largely done by black and latino communities, the lack of a welfare state has created a staggering social divide (with poor people queing at charity soup kitchens, young people needing to join the army or do beauty pageants to earn college scholarships, and large amounts of the population having no medical insurance). It is not democracy, because the media is loaded, and huge amounts of the population are not educated enough to make an informed decision. That's before you consider the corruption allegations against Bush...
Welcome! Actually, it is not unusuall, that british does not know so much about Russia. This happend not because of some educational fault, but because UK is Europe and Russia is Asia. And Europe and Asia have some serios differencies in view points. For example - for Asian most impotant issue is a power. But for Europeans, I guess, law and human rights. So, in Georgia-Russia case you can see, that Georgia pretend to act as europians, but on her mind still just asians values - power and domination. But Russia did not pretented to be european - we just frunkly used power.
#95
Lenus Wrote:I noticed you only chose one third of the question Smile

All four countries ended up in the Capital of Agressor, but how many countries snatced a piece of land? ust Russia.

Seriously, Are you telling us that USSR never invaded Poland in 1939?? Or Baltic stated in 1940?? Ir FInnland in 1939?

You are always hungry for more and more land, you cannot get enough of the land, with population drastically getting shrinked, I on't know what are you going to do with your enlarging borders?

It is just greed. Drop it.
I'm from Belarus and you are telling me about invasion in Poland in 1939? )) during the 1 world war germany have taken away half of my country and have given it to Poland. Red armi just free my contry, belarus people who suffered from Poland. The same concerne to Finland and others. And by the way - its a big mistake to think that Russia and SU - are the same. All soviet liders were jews. thy have come to power in 1917 and were pushed off in 2000
#96
russian999 Wrote:To my georgians opponents.
Please, make me small favor. I was trying to get some web-adresses of georgians forum in russian language.
But could not find it. Could you give me some.

<!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.irakly.info">http://www.irakly.info</a><!-- w -->
"Europe should switch to nuclear and use the old gas pipes as sewers. The destination should be the Kremlin." @ a reader at timesonline.co.uk
#97
Eugene from Belarus Wrote:I'm from Belarus and you are telling me about invasion in Poland in 1939? )) during the 1 world war germany have taken away half of my country and have given it to Poland. Red armi just free my contry, belarus people who suffered from Poland. The same concerne to Finland and others. And by the way - its a big mistake to think that Russia and SU - are the same. All soviet liders were jews. thy have come to power in 1917 and were pushed off in 2000

What??? very interesting interpretation of history. This is what you learned at school, didn't you? have you ever thought about questioning it a bit? Are you pretending that Grodno and Brest were not old Polish towns?

I have, though, heard a version that in those areas, town inhabitants spoke Polish but countryside inhabitants spoke Belarussian. I wonder what was the truth?

Quote:The same concerne to Finland and others.

What exactly did you mean by this??? USSR invaded old Finnish territories by annexing most of (Western)Karelia. Towns of Vyborg (Viipuri), Priozersk/Keksgolm (Käkisalmi) and Sortavala and their surroundings were purely Finnish towns when the Red Army came. There was even no significant Russian population there. USSR annexed the region just as a "war winner", as they needed a "defence zone" for Leningrad. No other arguments.

The situation with East Karelia (Petrozavodsk, Kondopoga, Medvezhyegorsk, Lake Onega etc.) was another one. This region had never belonged to Finland before, nor to Sweden during its time. The population were Karelians, Russians and Finns, probably in that order, but I do not know about percentages. Finland occupied this territory during 1941-44 but had to retire then. Indeed, if Germany had won the war, Finland would have "got" those territories...

Eugene from Belarus Wrote:All soviet liders were jews. thy have come to power in 1917 and were pushed off in 2000

Never heard! Stalin, Hrushtshev, Brezhnev all Jews?? :quoi :haha
#98
I think this topic is RUSSIAN MODERN geo-politics. Lets try to keep in topic.
#99
Salomo
1. About Grodno and Brest. it's old belorussian cities.mojority spoke so called "trasianka" - non-literary belorussian language. The territories had always belonged to Grand Duchy of Lietuva (GDL) (capital Novogrudok (now tawn near Minsk), than Vilnius). GDL were mostly belorussian country with state language - belorussian. Territory - Modern Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia, Nothern Ucrain, Western Russia (Smolensk). Then territory was extended to the Blake sea. GDL and Poland united and formed confederation (Rech Pospolitaja). After some wars in 17 sentuary Rech Pospolitaja was devided 3 times between Germany, Poland and Russia. After the 1 world war according to Brest treaty Poland have occupied almost half of modern Belarus (up to Minsk). The population were 90% belorussian. Poland lead the polisy of "polonisation" (forbid speaking belorussian language, close belorussian schools , kill belarussian riots etc.) But Grodno and Brest, i repeat, still were belorussian with polish minority.
2. after revolution Lenin gave independence to Finland, wich were parn of Russian empire. Then intervention began, when England, france, germany and others attacked SU. Practically it were civil war. During this war Karelia had come to Finland. Karely are separate people. They are neither finish, no russian.
3. Lenin, Trocki, Buharin, Kamenev, Zinoviev, Jagoda, Kalinin and many others were all jews. SU was governed by Politburo. It's state body that consisted of jews on 90-95%
The point is - Russia were never agressor. in contrast to Germany (Bismark, Hitler, crusaders, Napoleon, english forces etc.) Just in the contrary Russia tried to maintain peace on its borders.




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