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Russian modern Geo-politics
#51
russian999 Wrote:
Quote:yes in ukrain they have problems. But what about democracy in Russia? as I understand you dont need it.Or maybe its a "new ideology", new wision or something very new which is unknown in modern world. So exmple of Chinies is not suitable for Russians. They are very discipliaized, they dont drink ( ecxuze me for this) and they have huge work-force. So they are really very specific country.

You dont have to ask for pardon about note of russian drinking problems, you are right. It is oure reality and very big problem. I just mentioned chiniese to remind you, that democracy is good not for all people. Of course, russians and chiniese are different. But russians donot need so much democracy, same as china.
What I want to tell you about Georgians. I think you, guys, do not have many parts of charachters in order to be democratic. For example - you are hot bladded. You have short temper. And you have big pride. Its not so bad charachteristics by themself. But, its difficult to fit in democratic institutions.


Ops, you think british lack pride, or italians are not short tempered?
#52
Once I asked about the role of church in Russian geo-politics. I have found an interesting piece, so decided to share...


The Geopolitics of Russian OrthodoxyThe geopolitics of Orthodoxy primarily implies Russia, which is once more actively trying to use Orthodoxy for its own political ends. The geopolitics of Russian Orthodoxy can be judged from books published as learning tools on geopolitics and political science (for example, works by A. Dugin and A. Panarin). The attitude toward Orthodoxy is ambiguous in Russian geopolitics: on the one hand, Orthodoxy is considered a factor which can help to restore and maintain Russian’s foothold in certain regions, and on the other, people in Russia are worried that Orthodoxy will turn into a dominating factor in politics, and if this happens, the Russian Federation will have serious problems both within the country and, in particular, on the international arena.

A clear idea of Russian geopolitics can be formed on the basis of the above-mentioned textbooks. For example, in his main work Osnovy geopolitiki (The Fundamental Principles of Geopolitics),2 A. Dugin devoted a separate chapter to the geopolitics of Orthodoxy, although it only sets forth the problems of geopolitics in the Balkan Orthodox states.

A. Panarin looks at the political potential of the “Greek-Orthodox idea” and the practicality of using it for “spiritual reintegration of Eastern Orthodox countries,” as well as the possibility of reviving the idea of a Third Rome.3

According to the author, Orthodoxy looks extremely promising as a unifying idea. What is more, revival of the idea of the “Byzantine heritage” will give Russia the opportunity to return to “its Europe” without the Westernization derogatory for a strong state, after solving the task of modernization by retaining its own historical value system.

A. Panarin notes that after declaring the Third Rome theory as its official ideology in the 16th century, Moscow made intensive use of Orthodoxy in its state goals. So in the eyes of the rest of the world, Orthodoxy is essentially not perceived as a world religion and is identified with Russia.

According to A. Panarin, in order to play the role of a unifying force, Orthodoxy must regain its status of a world religion and demarcate the political and religious centers of Orthodoxy. Intent on winning the Ukrainians’ sympathy, A. Panarin suggests giving Kiev the role of center of the Orthodox world; if Ukraine does not wish to reunite with Russia, the latter should at least “spiritually join Kiev.” Again, Moscow is implied as the political center of the Orthodox world.

The “Byzantine heritage” sets the goal of ensuring the unity of the Eastern Slavs and Orthodox nations in general. But Moscow also has the task of preserving the non-Christian peoples within the Russian Federation or of “reintegrating” the former Soviet republics. In order to solve these tasks, several Russian analysts have been turning with increasing frequency to the idea of “Eurasianism,” according to which the nations of the former U.S.S.R., that is, the population of the “Eurasian space,” have, due to their geographic location, common interests and a common geopolitical destiny. This makes their reintegration into a single federal or confederative state inevitable.

The axis of “Eurasianism” is the idea of a union of Slavic and Turkic-speaking peoples. According to the Eurasians’ theory, the Russian nation is the “fruit of cooperation” of precisely these two ethnic groups. This thesis aroused the indignation of many Russian nationalists.

Russian analysts, including the same A. Panarin, note that Orthodoxy, which unites the Eastern Slavs, can become theocratic pan-Slavism without any ties with “Eurasianism,” thus setting the Russian Federation against both the West and the entire Muslim world, and in the event of Eurasian identification, Russia “will consolidate as a super state in its traditional civilizational area.”

The Kosovo crisis of 1999 and the bombing of Serbia by NATO forces became sort of touchstones for the geopolitics of Russian Orthodoxy. In the Russian mass media of that period, it was customary to hear the assertion that the Dayton Agreement of 1995 and the war on Yugoslavia in 1999 were the continuation under new historical conditions of many centuries of opposition between Western Christianity and Orthodoxy.

According to the proposal of Russian politicians and analysts, the conflict in Yugoslavia should have roused the Orthodox world and intensified the neo-Byzantine trends, that is, the unification of Orthodox countries around the Russian Federation and their dissociation from the West.

From this viewpoint, an article by S. Samuilov is worth noting, which analyzes in detail the reaction of the Orthodox states to the bombing of Serbia by NATO forces. The author (often without real reason) tries to show the solidarity of the population of the Orthodox countries with Serbia as opposed to their “pro-Western political elites.” “We are not the West,” according to S. Samuilov, that is the main thing the Orthodox nations understood during the bombing of Serbia. The war “enhanced the image of Russia in the mass consciousness.”4

Malkhaz Matsaberidze, D.Sc. (Political Science), Professor at the Ivane Javakhishvili Tbilisi State University (Tbilisi, Georgia)

2 See: A. Dugin, Osnovy geopolitiki. Geopoliticheskoe budushchee Rossii, ARKTOGEIA-tsentr, Moscow, 1999. Back to text
3 See: A.S. Panarin, Politologia. Textbook, Proekt Publishers, Moscow, 1997, pp. 364-385. Back to text
4 S.M. Samuilov, “Posle Yugoslavskoi voiny: razmyshleniia o Rossii, SShA, Zapade v tselom,” U.S., Canada: Economics, Politics, Culture, No. 3, 2000, p. 80
#53
Quote:So what do you offer? search a person like Putin in georgia and elect him? Do you have any candidate there in Russia for us?...Sorru man, I can not agree with you...YOu are providing bad examples of democracy...But there are a lot of good ones....I think you were following my debate with independent, we talked there a lot about new democracies in Asia...So I can not agree with you...You ask me to be more pragmatic....I am my friend...If I wan not pragmatic, I would have not been able to see the stupidity of Russia...Just wait for a while and than recall me and my dreams.....

Believe me, if russians was planning to bring oure candidat for georgia - russian army would not stopped and occupied georgia. We dont have anything to offer to Georgia.We want just one simple things - ORDER and LAW around our border. That is it. We dont care - what kind of political system in Latvia, Ukrain or georgia. If some political system can maintain ORDER in our border country - we like it. For example - we never will accuse North Korea. They have order in the country. We never will fight with baltics countrys - they dont like us, but they have ORDER - and that is fine. But Georgia made a big mess and disorder in ossetia - and we dont like it . same with Ukraine - if chaos will be constantly there - Russia will make some steps to regulate it.
#54
Quote:Ops, you think british lack pride, or italians are not short tempered?

You are absolutly right. But british do not have short temper and italians do not overprouded by themself.
You know, I was in military service with few Georgians. I like them, but, I did not trusted them. Because of there big pride and explosive temper. Actually - trust is a big thing for democracy.
#55
russian999 Wrote:
Quote:So what do you offer? search a person like Putin in georgia and elect him? Do you have any candidate there in Russia for us?...Sorru man, I can not agree with you...YOu are providing bad examples of democracy...But there are a lot of good ones....I think you were following my debate with independent, we talked there a lot about new democracies in Asia...So I can not agree with you...You ask me to be more pragmatic....I am my friend...If I wan not pragmatic, I would have not been able to see the stupidity of Russia...Just wait for a while and than recall me and my dreams.....

Believe me, if russians was planning to bring oure candidat for georgia - russian army would not stopped and occupied georgia. We dont have anything to offer to Georgia.We want just one simple things - ORDER and LAW around our border. That is it. We dont care - what kind of political system in Latvia, Ukrain or georgia. If some political system can maintain ORDER in our border country - we like it. For example - we never will accuse North Korea. They have order in the country. We never will fight with baltics countrys - they dont like us, but they have ORDER - and that is fine. But Georgia made a big mess and disorder in ossetia - and we dont like it . same with Ukraine - if chaos will be constantly there - Russia will make some steps to regulate it.


Are you advisor of Putin? You are talking we will do this, we will do that......The mess on Georgian-Russian boarder is provocated by Russia...Man, just think one minute. The whole Europe had one sole position according to Russia-Georgian war. This has not happened in the case of Kosovo, in the case of USA-Irac war. Do you not ask question why? Why EU and in general the whole Western world has one sole position?...I do not beleive that Georgian TVs are better in propagadna than Russian TVs....So we have to find some other answer...And the answer is that all beleive that Russia is provocating the situation in Georgia...This is the part of Russian Geo-politics to re-construct its power on post-soviet area...But Russian Government do not understand one thing, by their actions they seed detest not fear, on what they aim at...
#56
russian999 Wrote:
Quote:Ops, you think british lack pride, or italians are not short tempered?

You are absolutly right. But british do not have short temper and italians do not overprouded by themself.
You know, I was in military service with few Georgians. I like them, but, I did not trusted them. Because of there big pride and explosive temper. Actually - trust is a big thing for democracy.

hah, now I understand why we could not manage to build democracy in Georgia, we lack the trust of Russians...Come on man, the fact that you have not trusted Georgians do not imply that people here in Georgia are without responsibility and trust to one another... Italians without proud, have you seen such Italian. One year ago I was in London as an intern in European Bank for rconstruction and development...I shared room with italian butcher, in other two rooms there were 4 more italians just working in constructions...Come on man, I do know what pride is for Italians....
#57
Quote:Are you advisor of Putin? You are talking we will do this, we will do that......The mess on Georgian-Russian boarder is provocated by Russia...Man, just think one minute. The whole Europe had one sole position according to Russia-Georgian war. This has not happened in the case of Kosovo, in the case of USA-Irac war. Do you not ask question why? Why EU and in general the whole Western world has one sole position?...I do not beleive that Georgian TVs are better in propagadna than Russian TVs....So we have to find some other answer...And the answer is that all beleive that Russia is provocating the situation in Georgia...This is the part of Russian Geo-politics to re-construct its power on post-soviet area...But Russian Government do not understand one thing, by their actions they seed detest not fear, on what they aim at...

I like Putin.And I understand him. He is trying to change huge, ateistic, alcoholic country to the better. It is difficult and its cannot be maded by western ways.
Western countrys do not understand many nations. Chinise, koreans, japaniese. And we dont care so much about there opinions. Russians know, that west will never be agree with Russia. So, in Kosovo and in Irac west used the power. In russian case they will never use it. Nobody want to have nuclear war, even for democratics principals
#58
russian999 Wrote:
Quote:Are you advisor of Putin? You are talking we will do this, we will do that......The mess on Georgian-Russian boarder is provocated by Russia...Man, just think one minute. The whole Europe had one sole position according to Russia-Georgian war. This has not happened in the case of Kosovo, in the case of USA-Irac war. Do you not ask question why? Why EU and in general the whole Western world has one sole position?...I do not beleive that Georgian TVs are better in propagadna than Russian TVs....So we have to find some other answer...And the answer is that all beleive that Russia is provocating the situation in Georgia...This is the part of Russian Geo-politics to re-construct its power on post-soviet area...But Russian Government do not understand one thing, by their actions they seed detest not fear, on what they aim at...

I like Putin.And I understand him. He is trying to change huge, ateistic, alcoholic country to the better. It is difficult and its cannot be maded by western ways.
Western countrys do not understand many nations. Chinise, koreans, japaniese. And we dont care so much about there opinions. Russians know, that west will never be agree with Russia. So, in Kosovo and in Irac west used the power. In russian case they will never use it. Nobody want to have nuclear war, even for democratics principals

Nuclear War... Just what about I am talking is the fact that even Asian countries, Even China and many others have not agreed with Russia in his military actions......Please take one minute and ask yourself why???????????
#59
lashachochua Wrote:Nuclear War... Just what about I am talking is the fact that even Asian countries, Even China and many others have not agreed with Russia in his military actions......Please take one minute and ask yourself why???????????

Actualy they agreed. They dont like us to accept S Osetia and Abkchazia independance. not a big surprise isnt it? Even China has some problematic regions.
#60
SiD Wrote:
lashachochua Wrote:Nuclear War... Just what about I am talking is the fact that even Asian countries, Even China and many others have not agreed with Russia in his military actions......Please take one minute and ask yourself why???????????

Actualy they agreed. They dont like us to accept S Osetia and Abkchazia independance. not a big surprise isnt it? Even China has some problematic regions.


Yo do not have them yes? By the way what will be your position if Ingusheti will demand independence?
#61
lashachochua Wrote:Yo do not have them yes? By the way what will be your position if Ingusheti will demand independence?

Key word IF. I do not know now, i dont know about whole situation there, but i think i will be against it. Still using force is poor choice. Many regions of the world are demanding independance you know that, and i doubt everyone is eager to provide it to everyone. You will cal it double standarts and parhaps will be right but your friends are using them too so we are not so different, we just have different interests. I wrote previusly that now it is right of strong and if you can keep that means that you can keep.
#62
SiD Wrote:
lashachochua Wrote:Yo do not have them yes? By the way what will be your position if Ingusheti will demand independence?

Key word IF. I do not know now, i dont know about whole situation there, but i think i will be against it. Still using force is poor choice. Many regions of the world are demanding independance you know that, and i doubt everyone is eager to provide it to everyone. You will cal it double standarts and parhaps will be right but your friends are using them too so we are not so different, we just have different interests. I wrote previusly that now it is right of strong and if you can keep that means that you can keep.

This is what I call degradation of Russian reasoning...Sorry man for that! ;-) ...But the rule of Jungle has ended, you think that it is still time for such rules... You have to pay your price, like you say about Georgians... and your price will be free Chechnia and Ingusheti at first, than I decide what to do with Russia, depends how they will behave :lol: :lol: :lol:

You know, I think the only write reply on russian reasoning here is just :haha :banghead :haha
#63
lashachochua Wrote:This is what I call degradation of Russian reasoning...Sorry man for that! ;-) ...But the rule of Jungle has ended, you think that it is still time for such rules... You have to pay your price, like you say about Georgians... and your price will be free Chechnia and Ingusheti at first, than I decide what to do with Russia, depends how they will behave :lol: :lol: :lol:

You know, I think the only write reply on russian reasoning here is just :haha :banghead :haha

Nope. it is you have mistaken. To take away territory military force should be used. Kosovo, S Osetia and Abkchazia they are backed by powerful countrys, backed by military force. No one can do same against Russia so rules of the jungle are in force. ;-) .
#64
SiD Wrote:
lashachochua Wrote:Yo do not have them yes? By the way what will be your position if Ingusheti will demand independence?

Key word IF. I do not know now, i dont know about whole situation there, but i think i will be against it. Still using force is poor choice. Many regions of the world are demanding independance you know that, and i doubt everyone is eager to provide it to everyone. You will cal it double standarts and parhaps will be right but your friends are using them too so we are not so different, we just have different interests. I wrote previusly that now it is right of strong and if you can keep that means that you can keep.


I really do want to understand what the fucking interests Russia has...I am trying to read everything, russian sources and russian geopolitics books, western sources...But still like Russian Soul, I do not understand what are Russia interests, what they want, on what they aim?...

I think you also do not know that, Russian government has no longrun strategy, that's why it is difficult to understand the steps of Russia... Can you imagine China recognizing the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, when the country has itself regional problems...If the chinase position is logical and everyone understands it, why than Russia made this step...Something unlogical is happening with russia yes?...You should agree...
#65
lashachochua Wrote:I really do want to understand what the fucking interests Russia has...I am trying to read everything, russian sources and russian geopolitics books, western sources...But still like Russian Soul, I do not understand what are Russia interests, what they want, on what they aim?...

I think you also do not know that, Russian government has no longrun strategy, that's why it is difficult to understand the steps of Russia... Can you imagine China recognizing the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, when the country has itself regional problems...If the chinase position is logical and everyone understands it, why than Russia made this step...Something unlogical is happening with russia yes?...You should agree...

Actualy i was not for declearing independance of S Osetia and Abkchazia, but rather for thier autonomy guarded by Russia. It is all meaningles now becouse desigion is made. They were defacto independent and dont think too much will be changed, but who knows? Besides US made strange moves. Deliver humanitarian aid by warships full of offensive weapons and rockets? That is wierd.
#66
SiD Wrote:
lashachochua Wrote:This is what I call degradation of Russian reasoning...Sorry man for that! ;-) ...But the rule of Jungle has ended, you think that it is still time for such rules... You have to pay your price, like you say about Georgians... and your price will be free Chechnia and Ingusheti at first, than I decide what to do with Russia, depends how they will behave :lol: :lol: :lol:

You know, I think the only write reply on russian reasoning here is just :haha :banghead :haha

Nope. it is you have mistaken. To take away territory military force should be used. Kosovo, S Osetia and Abkchazia they are backed by powerful countrys, backed by military force. No one can do same against Russia so rules of the jungle are in force. ;-) .

You have just confessed in what Russian Government does not want to confess... Good that you admit the military involvement of russia in order to take the territory from Georgia...It is good that at least subconciously you admit the real goals of russian military actions.
#67
Quote:Actualy i was not for declearing independance of S Osetia and Abkchazia, but rather for thier autonomy guarded by Russia
.

This is what Georgia was offering, but instead Russia - the world community. This is first you idea I like :-P

Quote:It is all meaningles now becouse desigion is made. They were defacto independent and dont think too much will be changed, but who knows?

Here I do not agree with you...If Russia had the same position as you, the problem had been sorted out a long ago......

Quote:Besides US made strange moves. Deliver humanitarian aid by warships full of offensive weapons and rockets? That is wierd.


Are you sure in what are you telling?...
#68
lashachochua Wrote:You have just confessed in what Russian Government does not want to confess... Good that you admit the military involvement of russia in order to take the territory from Georgia...It is good that at least subconciously you admit the real goals of russian military actions.

Not a big deal. Actualy i think it is policy of Saakashvili that brought this. He could play different game and try to find balance between Russia and EU. But he rushed into NATO and was preparing army for combat. (if he prepared army to fight against Russia he obviusly failed but against S Osetia and Abkchazia they could fight). And do not say that we just wanted this war becouse no one needs to fight if he is satisfied anyway.
But his position was pro west and in worst of it. He should have done his best to be friends with Russia.
Well you can say that you do not need Russia or anything from Russia and so on, but to just ignore all interests of your nighbor (especialy such as Russia) cant bring any good.
#69
SiD Wrote:
lashachochua Wrote:You have just confessed in what Russian Government does not want to confess... Good that you admit the military involvement of russia in order to take the territory from Georgia...It is good that at least subconciously you admit the real goals of russian military actions.

Not a big deal. Actualy i think it is policy of Saakashvili that brought this. He could play different game and try to find balance between Russia and EU. But he rushed into NATO and was preparing army for combat. (if he prepared army to fight against Russia he obviusly failed but against S Osetia and Abkchazia they could fight). And do not say that we just wanted this war becouse no one needs to fight if he is satisfied anyway.
But his position was pro west and in worst of it. He should have done his best to be friends with Russia.
Well you can say that you do not need Russia or anything from Russia and so on, but to just ignore all interests of your nighbor (especialy such as Russia) cant bring any good.

Yes, you are right...But when your neighbour demand from you not to be the part of Western world, not to join NATO and not to join EU... I do not think you have to care about your neighnour... What do you think why Georgia wants to escape from Russia?... Because we Georgians know what kind of player Russia is... not stable, shaky, unprincipled, un-democratic, un-orginized... For what we need such partner... Russia failed to show his logical face with logical political steps... So the price for that will be confined political power in this region... sarkozi said, it is not time when the world was divided by world leaders... This time ended... In this century you can not force contry to be with you, if it does not want it...
#70
lashachochua Wrote:Yes, you are right...But when your neighbour demand from you not to be the part of Western world, not to join NATO and not to join EU... I do not think you have to care about your neighnour... What do you think why Georgia wants to escape from Russia?... Because we Georgians know what kind of player Russia is... not stable, shaky, unprincipled, un-democratic, un-orginized... For what we need such partner... Russia failed to show his logical face with logical political steps... So the price for that will be confined political power in this region... sarkozi said, it is not time when the world was divided by world leaders... This time ended... In this century you can not force contry to be with you, if it does not want it...

Nighbors can be nasty but they are nighbors still. My opinion is much like opinion of independent. When you turn your back to big country it is not without consicuenses. The thing is to play with your strenghts. Why to be pro west one must be anti Russian? I do not understand such logick, or it is thier rule of entering?
#71
SiD Wrote:
lashachochua Wrote:Yes, you are right...But when your neighbour demand from you not to be the part of Western world, not to join NATO and not to join EU... I do not think you have to care about your neighnour... What do you think why Georgia wants to escape from Russia?... Because we Georgians know what kind of player Russia is... not stable, shaky, unprincipled, un-democratic, un-orginized... For what we need such partner... Russia failed to show his logical face with logical political steps... So the price for that will be confined political power in this region... sarkozi said, it is not time when the world was divided by world leaders... This time ended... In this century you can not force contry to be with you, if it does not want it...

Nighbors can be nasty but they are nighbors still. My opinion is much like opinion of independent. When you turn your back to big country it is not without consicuenses. The thing is to play with your strenghts. Why to be pro west one must be anti Russian? I do not understand such logick, or it is thier rule of entering?

Now I have noticed your ability of humour, that's good...
I am getting to like you, just you have to change your mind totally Smile Smile Smile Smile
#72
Quote:The 1990s were largely ideology-free in Russia. The country was too weary of grand designs and too preoccupied with economic survival. When Putin came to power in 2000, he said Russia's national idea was "to be competitive." But then, as the price of oil climbed and Russia started to feel important again, the need for ideology became more urgent. Unable to offer any vision or strategy for the future, the Kremlin looked, inevitably, to the past.


Can looking in the past, especially in the nearest past, help Russians to feel themselves important?...
#73
One of Vladimir Putin's first acts as Russian president was the revival of the Soviet national anthem, replacing Mikhail Glinka's "Patriotic Song" (which had no words). On New Year's eve in 2000, the country clinked glasses to the tune written on Stalin's orders in 1944. At the time, Putin's supporters argued that this was his concession to the older population, a kind of sweetener for the bitter pill of economic reforms. There was, in fact, no popular demand for a change of the anthem. But when it arrived, it stirred dormant feelings in the population.
The same year as the return of the Soviet anthem in 2000, Channel One reinstated a Soviet-era jingle for the main nine o'clock news programme, Vremya. Melodies, like smells, can be highly evocative. The tune signalled a return to Soviet-era news coverage. In fact, it was as if the state was sending signals to the country as a whole--signals of restoration and revanche. And this was no longer some kind of game or joke. The jokers--like Parfenov--were quickly removed. The Kremlin and the KGB--now renamed the FSB and recovering much of its lost power--were deadly serious. To be sure, demand for a serious tone did exist. But the sad fact is that this demand was met not by the liberal intelligentsia, but by the ideologues of Putin's regime. As Russian troops moved into Georgia, Russian television presenters talked with straight faces and straight voices about the hand of the west behind Georgia's attack on its separatist region of South Ossetia.
#74
Quote:Russia today is not a totalitarian state, nor is it a socialist one. But in the absence of an indigenous liberal ideology, an old fashioned nationalism, in neo-Stalinist costume, has become the most powerful force in Russian society. It is this force that brought Russian tanks into Georgia and scares most of Russia's neighbours. In the process of "restoration," Russia has not returned to the Soviet past--but it has arrived at a new junction that bodes ill for its neighbours and its citizens.
#75
russia had never in its history tried to conquer the territory of western coutries. in contrast to France, Germany, england and USA whos armies had a lot of battles on the territory of Russia. And now you are talking that Russia is dangerous? Who's doctrin maintain the principle of first nuclea attac. Nato, not Russia. You are tolking that russia is not a democratic state? Thats not your thoughts, couse you don't know anything about russia. That is just the words from your newspapers.




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