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About our goverment i'll say softer - far from ideal
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Quote:Ok, lets get it straight! Black and white thinking - "My government is good - you government is bad".
I tell you frankly - russian government is bullshit. Tell me same things about Saakashvily - and I will agree with you - that you are not brainwashed
Good, bu the way, the same is georgian too
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Quote:Good, bu the way, the same is georgian too
All right. So, now you can try to do same things, as I did. I use to participated in some political surveyes. I was going door to door and I was asking people just 2 question - do you like your government and would you like to do something to change government. You know - people allways answering No and No. People do not want to lift up there ass to control government. So, each nation is worthy of its government.
The point is - russian government, same as georgian, are bullshit because people do not want to control government.
So, I believe, that if you, georgians people, was in real control of Gamsachurdia,shevarnadse and Saakashvily - this war was not happenned.
Let me guess - you reservists was not so happy to go to this war. Why they do not lift there ass and do not push government to solve this problem by peacefull way?
But russians are same. Our solders was dying in chechnia - but people just was keeping silence/
Until russians and georgians will let governments to do what governments want - there allways will be bullshits
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Control over the govt?! Democratic institutions have not been developed at such an extent, visa versa, leaders both in Moscow and Tbilisi have usurped the whole authority and appointed puppets in all government branches who, regardless of what foolish or criminal orders come from upstairs, obey and carry them out without reservations. But what we are facing now is a final stage of Russian annexation attempt of two Georgian regions pretty much in a similar fashion Konigsberg and Kuril Islands were annexed.
With Georgia militarily crushed now it's up to the EU and US to determine whether the Kremlin can get away with its plan or not.
If govts had been pluralisic even at the 1990s level, this bloodshed would have been avoided, because these leaders have proved to be a kind of vampires whose very existence depends on blood. I'm sure that without a brutal Chechen campaign Putin would have never elected. Tens of thousands of massacred civilians in North Caucasus made this guy a hero in Russia
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Despite the title given to the topic, this conflict is not between any Ossetia and Georgia – it’s between Putin’s Russia and a post-Soviet country in transition – Georgia. The conflict is very much about Russia itself – its ideology, aspirations, etc. Some kind of naivety I noticed in the West towards Russia may be attributed to peoples’ only slight understanding of the recent political developments in Russia, lack of historical knowledge and experience as well as sheer ignorance of the content changes on the Russian-speaking media in Russia since 1991.
I wonder how many participants of the current discussion are aware of Karaganov’s doctrine. Have you ever heard his name, at least? I challenge to say you are unable to judge on the reasons for adverse political winds blowing from Moscow to many neighbours of Russia unless you are familiar with his ideas. There is very badly masked wish on Kremlin’s part to set Europe against the US and see the EU divided by different interests. It’s pretty understandable that they dream of some kind of the EU finladization…
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Yalta1945 Wrote:Despite the title given to the topic, this conflict is not between any Ossetia and Georgia – it’s between Putin’s Russia and a post-Soviet country in transition – Georgia. The conflict is very much about Russia itself – its ideology, aspirations, etc. Some kind of naivety I noticed in the West towards Russia may be attributed to peoples’ only slight understanding of the recent political developments in Russia, lack of historical knowledge and experience as well as sheer ignorance of the content changes on the Russian-speaking media in Russia since 1991.
I wonder how many participants of the current discussion are aware of Karaganov’s doctrine. Have you ever heard his name, at least? I challenge to say you are unable to judge on the reasons for adverse political winds blowing from Moscow to many neighbours of Russia unless you are familiar with his ideas. There is very badly masked wish on Kremlin’s part to set Europe against the US and see the EU divided by different interests. It’s pretty understandable that they dream of some kind of the EU finladization…
As long as You focus only to Russia - You can't understand why EU acts like it do. Most EU countries
don't found US foreign policy reasonable anymore - letting US get more and more power is making
situation in EU too difficult. So it is only reasonable to try to have more closely relations against Russia.
Not because of oil or gas - as You think - but because EU and Russia co-operating blocks US coming
globally too powerfull.
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independent Wrote:As long as You focus only to Russia - You can't understand why EU acts like it do. Most EU countries
don't found US foreign policy reasonable anymore - letting US get more and more power is making
situation in EU too difficult. So it is only reasonable to try to have more closely relations against Russia.
Not because of oil or gas - as You think - but because EU and Russia co-operating blocks US coming
globally too powerfull.
You cant, even if you wanted. With Russia EU could be independent world player, second pole or superpower. But it will make US weaker. Your newest members are anti Russian , GB is pro American so i doubt EU and Russia would be close partners any time soon. US made shure that EU wont escape from them and your dependance from US is obvius. It is sad but EU is powerfull but just figure of US on global desk.
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SiD Wrote:You cant, even if you wanted. With Russia EU could be independent world player, second pole or superpower. But it will make US weaker. Your newest members are anti Russian , GB is pro American so i doubt EU and Russia would be close partners any time soon. US made shure that EU wont escape from them and your dependance from US is obvius. It is sad but EU is powerfull but just figure of US on global desk.
I don't believe it happens very quickly - but I think there is a clear tendency of EU taking distance of
US. How quickly it goes depends of US future foreign policy - I think if McCain becomes US president
then it will accelerate this shift
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independent Wrote:I don't believe it happens very quickly - but I think there is a clear tendency of EU taking distance of
US. How quickly it goes depends of US future foreign policy - I think if McCain becomes US president
then it will accelerate this shift
What about GB and eastern europe countries? They would sing praises for McCain for sure. Eastern europe wont allow whole EU to build close relations with Russia. And you will have no choice but to follow US policy.
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SiD Wrote:What about GB and eastern europe countries? They would sing praises for McCain for sure. Eastern europe wont allow whole EU to build close relations with Russia. And you will have no choice but to follow US policy.
GB and Eastern Europe are in fact minority in EU - and because of the way EU works, majority decide.
Also even GB is historically US closest partner - even they are tired to support its policy.
Few eastern european countries are really anti-russian, but they are so dependent of EU economical
support , that they can't even threaten to leave EU if our politics don't suite them. The Anti-russian
politics they implement, is more or less agitated by some pro-american politics in those countries.
During next few years they will withdraw - because people will notice that their politics leads economically
to dead end. So - I see a plenty of possibilities that in the future world will again have two power-pole
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independent Wrote:GB and Eastern Europe are in fact minority in EU - and because of the way EU works, majority decide.
Also even GB is historically US closest partner - even they are tired to support its policy.
Few eastern european countries are really anti-russian, but they are so dependent of EU economical
support , that they can't even threaten to leave EU if our politics don't suite them. The Anti-russian
politics they implement, is more or less agitated by some pro-american politics in those countries.
During next few years they will withdraw - because people will notice that their politics leads economically
to dead end. So - I see a plenty of possibilities that in the future world will again have two power-pole
Time will tell. I see no signs of EU and Russia building close relations.
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Russia must turn back to its traditional role in bribing local dukes in post-soviet area and then sending Russian troops to save somebody – it was formulated by Karaganov some 15 years ago. You can observe how it has been implemented in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, for instance. The reason for Russian aggressiveness towards new democracies along its borders is that Kremlin does not care a fig for democratic values. Democracies do not fight each other.
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Do you have some links on these Karaganov's theses? Would be interesting to read...
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Salomo Wrote:Do you have some links on these Karaganov's theses? Would be interesting to read...
I suppose that Yalta1945 will give You some more specific links, but
here are some:
his web page:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://eng.karaganov.ru">http://eng.karaganov.ru</a><!-- m -->
Download link to The World Around Russia 2017 (published 2007)- You might find it interesting
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://eng.karaganov.ru/news/186.html">http://eng.karaganov.ru/news/186.html</a><!-- m -->
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Salomo Wrote:Do you have some links on these Karaganov's theses? Would be interesting to read...
I don’t know where on the internet there might be the most peculiar thoughts Karaganov drafted 15 and more years ago, however they were printed indeed. For example, it looks like issues of "Diplomaticheskiy Vestnik" are available on the net since 1998 only.
I have not been doing any research in any field concerning the internet content that could be associated in some way with our topic for some 5 years at least, so I cannot give you a quick answer now. I could provide you with more information later, though it is always a question of whether too much sweating on the popular internet forums is not worthless (pardon me as I got a bit skeptical attitude out of my long participation in such forums). Usually, I am not so interested in finding the original source if I can obtain information from another source which I trust. So I receive generally "digested" information on Karaganov from those who are dealing with this information professionally, that is, they are monitoring and analyzing it. These sources do not necessary mean media; they can be, for example, politicians, or other kind of professionals…
What languages do you read? Can you read Russian? I glanced at some posts on the net in the end of August and I found a few fresh quotes of Karaganov again. Just 1 link (“Sergey Karaganov in Poland: you will fear Russia”)
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://dassie2001.livejournal.com/25114.html">http://dassie2001.livejournal.com/25114.html</a><!-- m -->
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Salomo Wrote:Do you have some links on these Karaganov's theses? Would be interesting to read... S.Karaganov read his report in Moscow on 6 October 1992, and it was published by "Diplomaticheskiy Vestnik" (vol. 21 and 22, 1992) together with articles of other authors you might be interested in. The former space of the USSR was proclaimed to be of special Russian interests and under Russian mandate for use of force, and Russia’s goal to pursue was said to be reintegration of the former Soviet space. Karaganov set out the thesis that Russia must protect not only Russians living in the republics formerly included in the USSR but population of those territories who are eastern rather than western oriented as well. Russians must not be allowed to immigrate to Russia, an investment program must be instituted that would create Russian political and economic enclaves in the new states to increase Russian political influence. Economic sanctions must be applied to those unwilling to succumb to Russian pressure. The accusations of human and minorities rights violations must be held as the main instrument in Russian relations to the former republics of the Soviet Union. The republics must be pressed to grant the full citizenship to all their inhabitants.
Mind all these statements is nothing else but one strategy, not some separate issues as the popular opinion in the West may wrongly perceive it, and this strategy was developed by the closest advisor of Putin. In the beginning the strategy did not seem to be implemented as aggressively as under Putin. However, it has never stopped, and it has just acquired acceleration.
The strategy stems from some kind of geopolitical thinking, adverse to the Western values and paying no account to democratic needs of the territories it aims at. But let’s not be mistaken: Karaganov is no democrat. Russian authorities used to have a bit of flirt with democracy but now they don’t need it much as Russians do not show their support for democracy at large. They do not challenge the ruling group in exchange for some economic benefits they believe they get due to “Putin’s course”. After a period of relative instability and the boom of numerous gangs under Yeltsin, Russian citizens have had less shocking criminality and they have generally enjoyed windfall profits as a result of considerable expansion in Russian oil and gas production. The fast growing oil and gas production and export with oil prices steadily leaping up brought the whole fortune to the Russian state. One may just blame the huge inequality of national income distribution in Russia for the fact the situation is far from that every citizen gets a tasty crisp of the big oil cake.
Western Europe has been content with its growing dependency on Russian energy imports and nothing has stopped some (corruptive) personalities and interest groups taking part in the business of Russian energy import to acquire a bigger economic and political influence in the new member states of the EU. Pardon me, but while the free world has such friends of Russian Gazprom as Gerhard Schröder, it does not need enemies. I also understand that we are all inclined to see what we wish, therefore the US president saw in the eyes of Putin what he wished to see but the leaders of big countries should be more realistic, less wishfully thinking.
Europe has been blind. For years Europeans have been feeding the regime that became increasingly authoritarian and aggressive. If it is going to continue, what is our mind and morality?
Read what various Russian strategists say openly. They posture Russia as a kind of alternative to democracy. They do say it openly.
If I am not mistaken, the idea of bribing “local dukes” and then sending Russian troops to save somebody should be also openly written in one of those two issues of “Diplomaticheskiy Vestnik” I mentioned above. You may also Google for “Lejins Karaganov 6 October 1992” – the results returned by the Google search engine should include interesting readings directly dealing with Karaganov’s thesis.
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Today the president of Russian Duma Boris Gryzlov claimed Saaksashvili must be judged by the international court and he along with his regime must be punished.
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Today the president of Russian Duma Boris Gryzlov claimed Saaksashvili must be judged by the international court and he along with his regime must be punished.
Why not?! But Putin and his clique, including Gryzlov, must be tried as well for crimes against humanity they've been committing in both Georgia and Chechnya.
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What are you thinking ....Russia will be destroyd tommorow ot the day after tommorow . and the main....leave Georgia. Russian soldiers must leave Georgia,or you will get the third world war.................undestand..............................
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Georgia- where is it? WW3 , do you realy think that main powers in the world will do it becouse of Georgia? USA cannot destroy RF because of our nuckes, and we cannot so we will not at war with USA. Georgia, Lithuania, Estonia, ect no match for us. And NATO understand that destruction of all humankind because of several points on the map isn't enought for it. Batter try to save what you have still had.
The best political regime for the nation is a regime which was saved this nation like an entire one. (M. Montein)
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sandre Wrote:What are you thinking ....Russia will be destroyd tommorow ot the day after tommorow . and the main....leave Georgia. Russian soldiers must leave Georgia,or you will get the third world war.................undestand..............................
Parhaps it is not very informative but all i can say about it is BUGAGA :haha  . parhaps you will back to reality one day.
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Quote:What are you thinking ....Russia will be destroyd tommorow ot the day after tommorow . and the main....leave Georgia. Russian soldiers must leave Georgia,or you will get the third world war.................undestand..............................
That is funny. US and Russia did not start WW3 during Cold war. At Cold war there was much bigger reasons to fight (Vietnam, Afganistan, blocade of West Berlin) than tiny Georgia. You, guys, are kind of georgians megalomans. Get down to earth.
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Yalta1945 Wrote:Russia must turn back to its traditional role in bribing local dukes in post-soviet area and then sending Russian troops to save somebody – it was formulated by Karaganov some 15 years ago. You can observe how it has been implemented in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, for instance. The reason for Russian aggressiveness towards new democracies along its borders is that Kremlin does not care a fig for democratic values. Democracies do not fight each other.
There is nothing preventing democratic countries from engaging in war if the majority of the population in one of them wants one. Democracy doesn't mean pacifism.
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Lenus Wrote:independent Wrote:SiD Wrote:What the form of government got to do with whole thing? Democracy doesn't mean anything and US already proven it.
Indeed nothing - but it is interesting because US always justifies its actions with need of
democracing its targets - and because US thinks that it is the only one who can tell us
what is needed to be an democratic country.
So why we accept that kind of attitude from it - do we really think US is kind of
more democratic country than e.g. old European countries - or Scandinavia ?
I myself think that US is far behind e.g. Scandinavia what becomes to democracy.
So they should stop telling everyone else how to live.- and better learn them self
from other countries what it is meant to be democratic.
independent, SiD
Which democratic regime has ever been overthrown by US?
The USA may have a good internal democratic tradition,but no first world government have worked harder than the US government to subvert democracy in other nations. Examples of US perfidy include:
(1) UK-USA overthrow of the democratically elected Iranian Prime Minister Mossadegh in favour of Pro-US royal dictator Shah Reza Pahlavi in 1950s.
(2)The US-Belgian overthrow of the democratically elected government of Patrice Lumumba of D.R. Congo and intalling the dictator Mobutu Seseko in his place in 1960s.
(3)US government support for Latin American dictators and CIA training their blood-thirsty security forces to murder people in the 1970s.
(4)US-apartheid South African sponsorship of murderous rebel groups in Angola and Mozambique against their democratic governments in the name of fighting communism in the 1970s
(5)covertly backing the extremely racist anti-democratic regime in South Africa and vetoing United Nations resolutions condemning apartheid a shocking 16 times.
(6)supporting backward Gulf Arab monarchical dictators in exchange for oil supply.
(7) US-UK support of the dictator of Uzbekistan who specializes in boiling political opponents to death until the continuous stream of embarrassing revelations of the brutal nature of the Uzbek dictator by the rebellious British Ambassador in Tashkent forced USA and UK to speak out against abuses they had condoned for 4 years in exchange for the strategic military bases near Afghanistan and more importantly, Russia. (The rebellious British ambassador, Craig Murray, was later sacked for refusing to keep quiet.)
(8)current Bush-Cheney support for the dictator of oil-rich Azerbaijan even as US government "champions" democracy in Georgia and condemns the "autocratic" Russian government...
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