Georgia and South Ossetia at war

[lashachochua]

Let us make a very brief sortie into the history of the conflict.
Throughout a brief history of Georgia as a sovereign state: from 1918-1921 and 1991-2008 and it has nine times attempted to exterminate the population of South Ossetia. First it was under the menshevist government of the Georgian Democratic Republic (5000 South Ossetians killed and over 13000 died afterwards as the result of epidemics and famine). In 1921 Joseph Djugashvili (Stalin) and Sergo Ordjenikidze divided Ossetia and included the South part in the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic.
As in 1989 Georgia used the right of self-determination it has some-what denied that to the South Ossetians and denounced the autonomy of the republic.
In the 1989 Zviyad Gamsahurdia came forth with a slogan “Georgia for Georgians” and tried to annex the territories to Georgia. The main personages of those events were Georgian mafia Godfathers Kitovani and Ioseliani whose goals were either to intimidate the population into entering Georgia or leaving it or just kill all of them.
With the help of Russia as intermediary the government of Shevornadze in 1991 signed ceasefire treaty first with South Ossetia, afterwards with Abhazia, the guarantors of the peace were peacekeepers made up of Russians, Georgians and South Ossetians (Abhazians). The treaty provided for demilitarized zone but the militarist and nazi government of Adolf Saakashvili contrived to secretly (for Ossetians and Abhazians but not for NATO) shift its regular army with heavy artillery into the zone on an aimed-fire distance to Tshinvali. On the 8th of August the Georgian heavy artillery systems “Grads” opened fire on sleeping city predominantly aiming at residential area (hospitals, shops etc.). The purpose of this operation was to take the population and the Russian peacekeepers by surprise and to either force the Ossetians out of republic or just exterminate. The beast hoped the Russian government would not dare to interfere and the world community would be to busy with the Olympic games and just with American help to cover up the crimes. There were a lot of atrocities worse than during the WWII.
Was there any other way to the save the people of Ossetia and Abhazia from GENOCIDE?
The answer is NO!!!! No one can challenge the fact.

You missed one thing here my friend.....Ossetian gangs were opening fire from forbiden weapons everynight from the 4 th of August...... I am not telling about the silly historical facts you are providing here.....If you are really interested with documents, not just history retelled by someone, I can send them to you and ensure you that what are you telling is not true.....

[chena]

Chena why do you post it? you try to show that in Russia there are many wiews? Or you think we will gladly accept every word just becouse it is in russian?

As I wrote before...It makes me thing that common sense is still aliv in Russia. It does not necessary mean that there is a democracy in Russia but means that there few brave people who are not brainwashed or influence by this "hate Georgia and the world" phobia.

Or you think we will gladly accept every word just becouse it is in russian?

As for Russian, I could translate however it's always better to read anything in original, I really do not expect you to accept (especially gladly)...just third party opinion, not me not you, someone else - who might know Russia as good as we do.

I do hope that sarcasm is not you only argument and being a smartass is not your only nature

[chena]

Very interesting vote and discussion. The results of voting is so shoking, 'cause most of people think that Russia attacked Georgia, it's some kind of bullsh..t
8.8.8 Georgia attaket ossetian slippiing city, georgian army killed 2000 people, so, the information in newspappers -isn't trustworthy. Please, answer me, why american and european journalist didn't be in Ossetia????They was only in Georgia in that tragic day.... Because nowdays America has started company vs. Russia. I think that Bush and co. are in the time of cold war,and they think that Russia-it's USSR....
America accuses Russia in agressia, but why america attacked the IRAQ???? IRAQ hadn't bombs. Bushm Saakashvili are criminals

Giovane,

I keep asking these questions maybe you could answer me finally:
1. I agree that killing civilians is a crime. However, 300 000 Georgian IDPs from Abkhazia, tens of thousands killed sind 1992. Despite the fact that these numbers and represent 70% of population of Abkhazia this is not called genocide of Georgians. WHY?
2. In fact shooting and bombing started not on 08.08.08 but on 05.08.08 and from so called South Ossetia's side. Georgian villages (CIVILIANS again) have been heavily bombed. Moreover, it was not the first time Russian peacekeepers and ossetians separatist did that. Why do you deny these evident facts?
3. There are tens of villages Georgian are burnt, bombed and completely destroyed together with their inhabitants, there are more than 70 000 IDPs from Kartli and South Ossetia region. Could you remind me why this does not qualify for genocide?

[lashachochua]

Very interesting vote and discussion. The results of voting is so shoking, 'cause most of people think that Russia attacked Georgia, it's some kind of bullsh..t
8.8.8 Georgia attaket ossetian slippiing city, georgian army killed 2000 people, so, the information in newspappers -isn't trustworthy. Please, answer me, why american and european journalist didn't be in Ossetia????They was only in Georgia in that tragic day.... Because nowdays America has started company vs. Russia. I think that Bush and co. are in the time of cold war,and they think that Russia-it's USSR....
America accuses Russia in agressia, but why america attacked the IRAQ???? IRAQ hadn't bombs. Bushm Saakashvili are criminals

Giovane,

I keep asking these questions maybe you could answer me finally:
1. I agree that killing civilians is a crime. However, 300 000 Georgian IDPs from Abkhazia, tens of thousands killed sind 1992. Despite the fact that these numbers and represent 70% of population of Abkhazia this is not called genocide of Georgians. WHY?
2. In fact shooting and bombing started not on 08.08.08 but on 05.08.08 and from so called South Ossetia's side. Georgian villages (CIVILIANS again) have been heavily bombed. Moreover, it was not the first time Russian peacekeepers and ossetians separatist did that. Why do you deny these evident facts?
3. There are tens of villages Georgian are burnt, bombed and completely destroyed together with their inhabitants, there are more than 70 000 IDPs from Kartli and South Ossetia region. Could you remind me why this does not qualify for genocide?

No pro-russian will answer on these questions....They will start their talks by the same words, why georgians started bombing?.....Why you killed 2000 people, when there is no any prove that 2000 people were killed.....It was first figure named by russian TVs, than they changed their minds and told somewhere 1300-1400.............Just this is European Forum and I do not want to leave it, not to let modern communists to spread their bullsh.t...........

[Giovane]

Very interesting vote and discussion. The results of voting is so shoking, 'cause most of people think that Russia attacked Georgia, it's some kind of bullsh..t
8.8.8 Georgia attaket ossetian slippiing city, georgian army killed 2000 people, so, the information in newspappers -isn't trustworthy. Please, answer me, why american and european journalist didn't be in Ossetia????They was only in Georgia in that tragic day.... Because nowdays America has started company vs. Russia. I think that Bush and co. are in the time of cold war,and they think that Russia-it's USSR....
America accuses Russia in agressia, but why america attacked the IRAQ???? IRAQ hadn't bombs. Bushm Saakashvili are criminals

I do agree with you that many civilians were killed in Iraq, But I have sevaral friends from there and many of them are happy that there no Sadam any more....Who was killing people without any reason...By the way Russia was in cooperation with Sadam......What about Putin, He destroyed huge number of Chechens, killed a lot of children in north Ossetia, and what is really terrible blasted two living flats in Moscow, where are chechen terrorist who did this terrible think, there are no any.....Is there any one in prison for this terrible
terror......No because the only person responsible for this is Putin............

You know, all that you wrote unfortunately is't true.
1) 1994 ok we attacked Grozny. Ok. But maybe you forget, that in 1996 (when chechen terrorists hostaged maternity hospital in Russian city Buddenovsk) Russia government acknowledge Chechen's independence.... Chechnya became independence government/ But in 2000 Chechnya attacked Dagestan/ And from that date began the second war, than was referendum, when Chechens sad that they want to be with Russia.
2) 2 exploided buildings and Beslan's hostages-are result of Chechen's terrorism. Dig it, Lasha.
3) May be do you think, 9/11 did russian???? ha-ha
4)Lashs stop lying

[independent]

------------------------

[Giovane]

Very interesting vote and discussion. The results of voting is so shoking, 'cause most of people think that Russia attacked Georgia, it's some kind of bullsh..t
8.8.8 Georgia attaket ossetian slippiing city, georgian army killed 2000 people, so, the information in newspappers -isn't trustworthy. Please, answer me, why american and european journalist didn't be in Ossetia????They was only in Georgia in that tragic day.... Because nowdays America has started company vs. Russia. I think that Bush and co. are in the time of cold war,and they think that Russia-it's USSR....
America accuses Russia in agressia, but why america attacked the IRAQ???? IRAQ hadn't bombs. Bushm Saakashvili are criminals

Giovane,

I keep asking these questions maybe you could answer me finally:
1. I agree that killing civilians is a crime. However, 300 000 Georgian IDPs from Abkhazia, tens of thousands killed sind 1992. Despite the fact that these numbers and represent 70% of population of Abkhazia this is not called genocide of Georgians. WHY?
2. In fact shooting and bombing started not on 08.08.08 but on 05.08.08 and from so called South Ossetia's side. Georgian villages (CIVILIANS again) have been heavily bombed. Moreover, it was not the first time Russian peacekeepers and ossetians separatist did that. Why do you deny these evident facts?
3. There are tens of villages Georgian are burnt, bombed and completely destroyed together with their inhabitants, there are more than 70 000 IDPs from Kartli and South Ossetia region. Could you remind me why this does not qualify for genocide?

For answering I should tell you some historical facts:
1) this georgians that lived in Abkhazia hadn't been native population. They appeared in 1930-x years with Stalin's help . Because in that time more that a half of goviernment was georgians. they wanted that Abkhazia would be a part of georgian republic.
2) Evident fact??? ha-ha-ha, it's your, georgians, lie. Why don't you tell us about georgian provocations from 2000???
3)
That you wrote it's a bul....t unfornuately. Russian aviations bombed only docks in Poti& Gori. Georgians army shamefuly run away. And your information it's next fact of lying propaganda...

[independent]

A question to all Georgians here

You all seems to be convinced that S-Ossetia and Abhkazia are and have been part of Georgia.
Kindly inform me how much Georgia has invested / financed spendings in those regions
during last ten years:

1) Education - what and how many billions USD
2) Public health care - what and how many billions USD
3) Culture - what and how many billions USD
4) Investments to Infrastructure - what has been built and budget
5) Infrastructure maintenance - what and how many billions USD
6) Investments to production - what and how many billions USD

[Yalta1945]

Russian moves have already been called irrational and they are so indeed.
The latest decision made by president Medvedev is not in accord with the six point agreement that the same Russian president signed just recently. French president Sarkozy who mediated this agreement should be most worried. The decision made by Medvedev contradicts the duties that Russia took upon itself to honour in this region. And what about Kosovo, will Russia recognize its independence now? President Medvedev answers to CNN: “Abkhazia and South Ossetia are special cases. The situation is totally different there.” In other words: no, Russia is not going to recognize Kosovo’s independence. This is despite the fact that they are now continuously citing Kosovo’s precedent in media in order to justify what they have done. I admire, in a way, Medvedev who makes such statements without winking an eye.
There is some well-known phrase in Russian, which says it is impossible to understand Russia by reason; you can only believe/trust it. Now judge yourself how much trust this new Russia (with old habits) inspires in you.

p.s. I hope this will not be posted two times. I tried to submit it once but I did not see it published

[SiD]

Chena why do you post it? you try to show that in Russia there are many wiews? Or you think we will gladly accept every word just becouse it is in russian?

As I wrote before...It makes me thing that common sense is still aliv in Russia. It does not necessary mean that there is a democracy in Russia but means that there few brave people who are not brainwashed or influence by this "hate Georgia and the world" phobia.

Or you think we will gladly accept every word just becouse it is in russian?

As for Russian, I could translate however it's always better to read anything in original, I really do not expect you to accept (especially gladly)...just third party opinion, not me not you, someone else - who might know Russia as good as we do.

I do hope that sarcasm is not you only argument and being a smartass is not your only nature

It were just questions. georgians are gladly calling us not free and anti democratic that is why i was qurius.
Do you always react so angrily on simple questions?

[SiD]

Russian moves have already been called irrational and they are so indeed.
The latest decision made by president Medvedev is not in accord with the six point agreement that the same Russian president signed just recently. French president Sarkozy who mediated this agreement should be most worried. The decision made by Medvedev contradicts the duties that Russia took upon itself to honour in this region. And what about Kosovo, will Russia recognize its independence now? President Medvedev answers to CNN: “Abkhazia and South Ossetia are special cases. The situation is totally different there.” In other words: no, Russia is not going to recognize Kosovo’s independence. This is despite the fact that they are now continuously citing Kosovo’s precedent in media in order to justify what they have done. I admire, in a way, Medvedev who makes such statements without winking an eye.
There is some well-known phrase in Russian, which says it is impossible to understand Russia by reason; you can only believe/trust it. Now judge yourself how much trust this new Russia (with old habits) inspires in you.

p.s. I hope this will not be posted two times. I tried to submit it once but I did not see it published

I have seen this speach it was in Russian so i understood it more clearly. He was talking that if EU ans US can call Kosovo special case so do we. And he told that every independance case is special.

[independent]

Russian moves have already been called irrational and they are so indeed.
The latest decision made by president Medvedev is not in accord with the six point agreement that the same Russian president signed just recently

Not quite so - to recognize some country as independent is always every countrys own choice. And it
seems that the six point agreement indeed is very inaccurate with this.
If we except that only US has the right to say who can and who can't be independent then Russias action
is of course questionable.
I just wonder: Is it really more reasonable to push hole world to the edge of war than appropriate the fact
that also Pro-Bush politics like Saakashvili can flop. But it seems hopeless for US to assign it. So US(Bush)
better risks with war than stop backing him. :deg

But at the same time what else You can expect from an President with prominently so "high" IQ :ange

[lashachochua]

Russian moves have already been called irrational and they are so indeed.
The latest decision made by president Medvedev is not in accord with the six point agreement that the same Russian president signed just recently

Not quite so - to recognize some country as independent is always every countrys own choice. And it
seems that the six point agreement indeed is very inaccurate with this.
If we except that only US has the right to say who can and who can't be independent then Russias action
is of course questionable.
I just wonder: Is it really more reasonable to push hole world to the edge of war than appropriate the fact
that also Pro-Bush politics like Saakashvili can flop. But it seems hopeless for US to assign it. So US(Bush)
better risks with war than stop backing him. :deg

Please see the the interview of Russian ambassador in UN. his replies was contradicting one another. It was outlined on Aljaazira, As I know it is not western organization and the part of western propaganda, By the way is Japan the western country, You do not like Kanada also.....Italy, France, Germany....Yes all these guys are going crazy......Only russia can provide light.........

[independent]

Please see the the interview of Russian ambassador in UN. his replies was contradicting one another. It was outlined on Aljaazira, As I know it is not western organization and the part of western propaganda, By the way is Japan the western country, You do not like Kanada also.....Italy, France, Germany....Yes all these guys are going crazy......Only russia can provide light.........

There are only two crazy men in this case - Saakashvili and Bush. The rest is show. So If You assume
that Your president and Your country is just now disgusted by most of the world - You are right.

[lashachochua]

A question to all Georgians here

You all seems to be convinced that S-Ossetia and Abhkazia are and have been part of Georgia.
Kindly inform me how much Georgia has invested / financed spendings in those regions
during last ten years:

1) Education - what and how many billions USD
2) Public health care - what and how many billions USD
3) Culture - what and how many billions USD
4) Investments to Infrastructure - what has been built and budget
5) Infrastructure maintenance - what and how many billions USD
6) Investments to production - what and how many billions USD

Very clever questions....Can you tell me how much Russia invested during the war with Chechnya.....When there is no control over territory, what you sggest, we had to finance separatist gavernment.....Yes, it is not strange for russian government, they are financing separatists all over the world.....Don't you think that only cuba and belarus is with you, may be syria.....Or you pretend that you have some special truth and it needs time to make the whole world to beleive you.......

[lashachochua]

Please see the the interview of Russian ambassador in UN. his replies was contradicting one another. It was outlined on Aljaazira, As I know it is not western organization and the part of western propaganda, By the way is Japan the western country, You do not like Kanada also.....Italy, France, Germany....Yes all these guys are going crazy......Only russia can provide light.........

There are only two crazy men in this case - Saakashvili and Bush. The rest is show. So If You assume
that Your president and Your country is just now disgusted by most of the world - You are right.

And you russians call such blablabla argument..............Do you really beleive that georgia is digusted and not Russia.......... :haha

[lashachochua]

Very interesting vote and discussion. The results of voting is so shoking, 'cause most of people think that Russia attacked Georgia, it's some kind of bullsh..t
8.8.8 Georgia attaket ossetian slippiing city, georgian army killed 2000 people, so, the information in newspappers -isn't trustworthy. Please, answer me, why american and european journalist didn't be in Ossetia????They was only in Georgia in that tragic day.... Because nowdays America has started company vs. Russia. I think that Bush and co. are in the time of cold war,and they think that Russia-it's USSR....
America accuses Russia in agressia, but why america attacked the IRAQ???? IRAQ hadn't bombs. Bushm Saakashvili are criminals

Giovane,

I keep asking these questions maybe you could answer me finally:
1. I agree that killing civilians is a crime. However, 300 000 Georgian IDPs from Abkhazia, tens of thousands killed sind 1992. Despite the fact that these numbers and represent 70% of population of Abkhazia this is not called genocide of Georgians. WHY?
2. In fact shooting and bombing started not on 08.08.08 but on 05.08.08 and from so called South Ossetia's side. Georgian villages (CIVILIANS again) have been heavily bombed. Moreover, it was not the first time Russian peacekeepers and ossetians separatist did that. Why do you deny these evident facts?
3. There are tens of villages Georgian are burnt, bombed and completely destroyed together with their inhabitants, there are more than 70 000 IDPs from Kartli and South Ossetia region. Could you remind me why this does not qualify for genocide?

For answering I should tell you some historical facts:
1) this georgians that lived in Abkhazia hadn't been native population. They appeared in 1930-x years with Stalin's help . Because in that time more that a half of goviernment was georgians. they wanted that Abkhazia would be a part of georgian republic.
2) Evident fact??? ha-ha-ha, it's your, georgians, lie. Why don't you tell us about georgian provocations from 2000???
3)
That you wrote it's a bul....t unfornuately. Russian aviations bombed only docks in Poti& Gori. Georgians army shamefuly run away. And your information it's next fact of lying propaganda...

Please read
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Abkhazia">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Abkhazia</a><!-- m -->

[lashachochua]

Very interesting vote and discussion. The results of voting is so shoking, 'cause most of people think that Russia attacked Georgia, it's some kind of bullsh..t
8.8.8 Georgia attaket ossetian slippiing city, georgian army killed 2000 people, so, the information in newspappers -isn't trustworthy. Please, answer me, why american and european journalist didn't be in Ossetia????They was only in Georgia in that tragic day.... Because nowdays America has started company vs. Russia. I think that Bush and co. are in the time of cold war,and they think that Russia-it's USSR....
America accuses Russia in agressia, but why america attacked the IRAQ???? IRAQ hadn't bombs. Bushm Saakashvili are criminals

I do agree with you that many civilians were killed in Iraq, But I have sevaral friends from there and many of them are happy that there no Sadam any more....Who was killing people without any reason...By the way Russia was in cooperation with Sadam......What about Putin, He destroyed huge number of Chechens, killed a lot of children in north Ossetia, and what is really terrible blasted two living flats in Moscow, where are chechen terrorist who did this terrible think, there are no any.....Is there any one in prison for this terrible
terror......No because the only person responsible for this is Putin............

You know, all that you wrote unfortunately is't true.
1) 1994 ok we attacked Grozny. Ok. But maybe you forget, that in 1996 (when chechen terrorists hostaged maternity hospital in Russian city Buddenovsk) Russia government acknowledge Chechen's independence.... Chechnya became independence government/ But in 2000 Chechnya attacked Dagestan/ And from that date began the second war, than was referendum, when Chechens sad that they want to be with Russia.
2) 2 exploided buildings and Beslan's hostages-are result of Chechen's terrorism. Dig it, Lasha.3) May be do you think, 9/11 did russian???? ha-ha
4)Lashs stop lying

Can you tell me any chechen sitting in the prizon for this terror? No I cannot blame you for 9/11 just for one reason, you are not able for sucj things.........You can only destroy small nations....even you can not do that....

[independent]

Very clever questions....Can you tell me how much Russia invested during the war with Chechnya.....

Sorry, I'm wrong person to answer to this question.

When there is no control over territory, what you sggest, we had to finance separatist gavernment.....

Funny You say so - we are financing e.g. Ahvenanmaa even it is autonomic and willing to join
to sweden (might be).
So during 10 years You have done nothing to support them.... But You still "own" that
territory.

Yes, it is not strange for russian government, they are financing separatists all over the world.....Don't you think that only cuba and belarus is with you, may be syria.....Or you pretend that you have some special truth and it needs time to make the whole world to beleive you.......

My country (Finland) has perfectly good relations to almost every country in the world.

[lashachochua]

Very clever questions....Can you tell me how much Russia invested during the war with Chechnya.....

Sorry, I'm wrong person to answer to this question.

When there is no control over territory, what you sggest, we had to finance separatist gavernment.....

Funny You say so - we are financing e.g. Ahvenanmaa even it is autonomic and willing to join
to sweden.
So during 10 years You have done nothing to support them.... But You still "own" that
territory.

Yes, it is not strange for russian government, they are financing separatists all over the world.....Don't you think that only cuba and belarus is with you, may be syria.....Or you pretend that you have some special truth and it needs time to make the whole world to beleive you.......

My country has perfectly good relations to almost every country in the world.

For ten years 300 000 georgians were displaced by force, they left under force their livings... I really do not understand how you can finance the separatists government....Is it logical.......

Are you sure that you have normal relations with all countries, if you are russian.....We will see this on the 1st september..............

[lashachochua]

Come on Finland, the country which resisted The Soviet Union in 1930s.....I am shocked....You should remember what USSR did to your country, and you support the person who says that the colappse of Soviet Union was the geratest geo-political mistake.....I think you are Russian, who went to Finland for earning for a living...........

[independent]

Are you sure that you have normal relations with all countries, if you are russian.....We will see this on the 1st september..............

I'm still Finnish. You only assume that anyone with different point of view is russian.
But face the fact Bush and Saakashvili might be heroes in Georgia - elsewhere they
are just two stupid politics.

[independent]

Come on Finland, the country which resisted The Soviet Union in 1930s.....I am shocked....You should remember what USSR did to your country, and you support the person who says that the colappse of Soviet Union was the geratest geo-political mistake.....I think you are Russian, who went to Finland for earning for a living...........

My family have lived here since 1632 - so i assume I can say I'm not an emigrant..
And Yes I'm pretty dam familiar what USSR did to my country - and I'm familiar
what it means when a small country get trapped between big countries geopolitical
interests.
If You know our history - then You also know that when we were at war
with USSR e.g. UK declare war with us. So we really got a lesson to avoid
getting between big countries. And that is what I'm trying to tell to Georgians.

You can't turn to other big country to avoid another. And that is what You have done.

[lashachochua]

Are you sure that you have normal relations with all countries, if you are russian.....We will see this on the 1st september..............

I'm still Finnish. You only assume that anyone with different point of view is russian.
But face the fact Bush and Saakashvili might be heroes in Georgia - elsewhere they
are just two stupid politics.

No no no, when I wrote this reply there was no written that you are from Finland....

[lashachochua]

Come on Finland, the country which resisted The Soviet Union in 1930s.....I am shocked....You should remember what USSR did to your country, and you support the person who says that the colappse of Soviet Union was the geratest geo-political mistake.....I think you are Russian, who went to Finland for earning for a living...........

My family have lived here since 1632 - so i assume I can say I'm not an emigrant..
And Yes I'm pretty dam familiar what USSR did to my country - and I'm familiar
what it means when a small country get trapped between big countries geopolitical
interests.
If You know our history - then You also know that when we were at war
with USSR e.g. UK declare war with us. So we really got a lesson to avoid
getting between big countries. And that is what I'm trying to tell to Georgians.

You can't turn to other big country to avoid another. And that is what You have done.

We georgians also have not only one century experience to be between two empires......We have different story from the history, being neutral have always been bad for us.... We do not want to be with USA at all, what we want is to be the part of EU and NATO, because the huge Russia is threat for us......