Georgia and South Ossetia at war

[Lor]

Sid you completely misunderstood me! I am not pro Georgian, nor Anti-Russian. All i am is a EU citizen concerned about a country whose citizens are being killed due to a political game.

I think this Russian agression should stop but as things are going, MONDAY evening and your troops are still there!! If you are concerned about a region gaining their independence than why, within your own borders didn't have the same concern? Why didn't you give independence to Chechnya, but you're so concerned about South Ossetia! For me this is called DOUBLE STANDARDS and that's why i can't support Russia on this one!

Georgia helped US to occupie Iraq but you can support them. Did you heard about any man from Iraq taking hostages in Georgia or killing its citizens? Parhaps Iraq invaded in Georgia? No. Parhaps we can ewen call sending troops by Georgia into Iraq aggression?
So you must choose after all. If our actions in Chechnya are wrong than Georgian in S Osetia either. If they are so similar than that mean you support independance of S Osetia and Abchazia?

I don't know... communicating with you is very difficult you do your best NOT to understand me!! Georgia didn't occupy any Iraq!! You'd better consult your sources!! I didn't say anything about Chechnya being right or wrong i said that you have double standards concerning South Ossetia.

Talking about Chechnya, imagine that, during your conflict there, US troops invade Chechnya and start bombarding the whole area+ OUTSIDE Chechnya, killing civilians, destroying the infrastructure,burning woods and looting on the street of Russia. Then promising the entire world to withdraw, and NEVER keep their word. To be exact 3 times. Would you find US actions rightful? I'm sure you won't. WHY? Because US will have no right to enter your borders! THe SAME here!! You had no right to enter Georgia(NO MATTER WHAT, you could ask for UN, NATO troops help, but you don't even allow journalists, and i just read a report that Kremlin doesn't agree to OSCE sending 100 people in Georgia. WHY?? do you have smth to hide?) , as an independent democratic country! And it all stars from here!

[independent]

Lor and SiD

Both US and Russia have Double standards - every powerfull country has. And it is pretty
hard to deny it. So You both are kind of right.

[Lor]

According to your reveiw Russians try to show that they don't obey to anyone. OK US is their nightmare and it wil be always like this. BUT what will u say ebout EU. Merkel twice requested and Sarkozi 3 times. HOw do u think isn't it enough?

I guess that without US ordering they to obey - they might have already withdrawed. Because EU kind of
kindly asked them to leave. I really think that it is not the best way to "order" russians to do something.
They are pretty proud people.

Independent i don't think you're pro-Russian!! I just think you're Anti-American!( by Russian and American i mean their politics, not the citizens). It's funny, some people i talked to some months ago,from USaid said that at least 50 years from now, due to America's latest actions, people will blame USA for EVERYTHING that will happen in the world. I guess they were right

[Lor]

Lor and SiD

Both US and Russia have Double standards - every powerfull country has. And it is pretty
hard to deny it. So You both are kind of right.

I finally AGREE 100% with you!! I never said that they don't have double standards!! Superpowers play DIRTY political games. All i said is that this time, i tend to blame Russia. Note that i blame US the same for Iraq and Kosovo!!

[independent]

Independent i don't think you're pro-Russian!! I just think you're Anti-American!( by Russian and American i mean their politics, not the citizens). It's funny, some people i talked to some months ago,from USaid said that at least 50 years from now, due to America's latest actions, people will blame USA for EVERYTHING that will happen in the world. I guess they were right

I know this sound funny - but I really like americans. And I'm not anti-american ( I think Bush is :oO )
I could define myself as anti-superpower. Also many Americans are tired to aggressive foreign
policy.

[Tamar]

DOUBLE STANDARDS

Russian double standards against US and EU double standarts.
I'm Belorussian. And I'm on Russia side. For me it looks like you listen only to your mass medias. I can explain my point of view (if you want to read).
1. Georgia first attacked Ossetia. Georgians had killed 1600 civilian people in one night. They used multiple launch rocket system against Chinvali. There is no way to precisely control such weapon. It just covers territory and kills everything. It's antihumanistic! 1600 dead civileans in one night! It's just bloody terror. Mikheil Saakashvili should visit The Hague.
2. Russia doesn't attack civilians on Georgia territory. It bombs military bases to suppress Georgian army. So it's clear - there is no aggression against folk (like Georgian did).
3. And about double standards. If people of Ossetia have the same rights as Kosovo people have, then they should have possibility to vote for an independent life. Russia has double standards, but I see that EU and specially US also have. If US supports killers around the world then they are just aggressive animals.
Firs I see : US aggression to Russia through Georgia and genocide of Ossetia with support of propaganda. And only after it I see Russian aggression. Is it democracy to export and adapt?

Dear Grid, Wake up! you are watching Belorussian channels, which are provided with the information by the Russian ones???????? You certainly do! What about Russians using Cluster Bombs in GORI, ZUGDIDI AND SENAKI. THE CLUSTER BOMBS WERE USED AGAINST THE CIVILIANS IN THE CENTRE OF GORI. THE CLUSTER BOMBS ARE FORBIDDEN BY THE LAW TO BE USED AGAINST CIVILIANS AND MIGHT BE USED ONLY DURING THE WAR! THIS WAS ON CNN AND BBC AND EURO NEWS! AND YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT HUMANISM???????? WAKE UP FOR GOD'S SAKE. What about destroying the port of Poti, what about mining the bridge which unites the East and the West of Georgia, its explosion caused trouble not only to two parts of Georgia, but to Armenia and Azerbaijan as well! What about stealing TVS, CD centres, washing powders, toothbrushes, pipes, clothes, shoes from the civilians????????????? ALL THESE WERE AND ARE BROADCASTED BY INTERNATIONAL CHANNELS! What about Russian distributing passports in Samachablo????????? WHAT ABOUT FAILURE TO FULFIL THE AGREEMENT? YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT HUMANISM?????

[Lor]

GRID!!! I think you should go back and read all the 111 pages. I'm tired to share my views with newcomers I don't want to be mean but i spent a loooong time posting very important facts that were NOT from media but from diplomats and International Relations Teachers.

If you go back you will also find all kinds of links, videos, pictures or radio broadcasting from all over the world that can speak for themselves and that you don't get to see on the belorussian TV... i wonder why...???

And please don't tell me, like others did that the whole world is wrong and you are the only objective people on this planet, because this argument is laughable!!!! weat

[Tamar]

Lor - thank you, you expressed exactly what I meant to say but did not uper

[Lor]

Lor - thank you, you expressed exactly what I meant to say but did not uper

I know... right??
The problem is that Grid won't go back, because he doesn't want to read other opinions. He won't trust them!!! PLUS he won't believe them NO MATTER WHAT WE DO, SAY or WHAT PROVES WE BRING UP !!! I feel helpless :nonnon

[independent]

Lor,

How commonly known it is in Georgia that part of what happens is because You have been
kind of "caught in the crossfire" for geopolitical reasons ?

[Tamar]

No, please don't say this, you know in Georgia there is a good saying: "karg mtqmels, kargi gamgoni undao", it is more or less of "umnyji pojimet s polu slova", sorry I did not manage to find the Enlgish analogy, once again sorry for this, so I still belive that our words here matter and still we can change sth in some people's heads, but that does not spread on very one and it is normal. What I can do? I cannot carry the gun, but I gave my blood to the injuired, I took the clothes to the refugees and I can also write here what pain the Georgians are undergoing now, what is really happening here! So please dont feel helpless!

[Grid]

What about Russians using Cluster Bombs in GORI, ZUGDIDI AND SENAKI.

It's also very bad.

you don't get to see on the belorussian TV

I never watch belorussian TV - it's also propaganda. I read news in inet and watch Euronews.
Actually I was monitoring only start of conflict.

You tend to blame Russia only. It's what I see. Why you don't blame Giorgia also?

What about stealing TVS, CD centres, washing powders, toothbrushes, pipes, clothes, shoes from the civilians?????????????

Maybe it also happened. But why should I believe that they were Russian marauders? If European medias don't mention killed Ossetians and focus only on stolen Gorgian goods.

WHAT ABOUT FAILURE TO FULFIL THE AGREEMENT?

To fulfill idea of leaving Osstians without protection? It's not so easy to fix what Georgia did. I takes days, months and years to fix such things. I think that Georgia has spoiled situation in region for new 20 years.
Look at US troop in Iraque. They are going to never leave this country. Judge them so drastically.
Since US "peaceful" operation started 100 0000 Iraqi killed. What the precise "weapon" (sarcastic)! Probably Russia has rights for the same accuracy.

And please don't tell me, like others did that the whole world is wrong and you are the only objective people on this planet

I don't tell it to you. I also have doubts and don't have full information about what happened.

[Lor]

Lor,

How commonly known it is in Georgia that part of what happens is because You have been
kind of "caught in the crossfire" for geopolitical reasons ?

I don't know how common it is, but Georgians on this forum seem to be aware more or less, about the fact that Russians didn't invade them for South Ossetia conflict, but for their desire to be free and western. I think that this part is pretty common. Some Georgians that were in the affected areas, don't even think at all.. Their only thoughts are how to get their lives back. They don't care who, where, when and why this war started.They just want it to finish!!

[Lor]

Grid, as i said, go on my posts and you will have different sources of information of what happened. From Moscow and Europe, both sides. After you read it all we can talk about it. :livre

[independent]

Their only thoughts are how to get their lives back. They don't care who, where, when and why this war started.They just want it to finish!!

What I have been reading it seems that there is no more violence actions - is this wrong information ?
Or You mean that occupation is still so strong ?

[Tamar]

Dear Grid,

1) First of all I strongly recommend to learn about the developing of the conflict and the situation we are having now.
2)Georgia did not invade Russia which is in Georgia right now, in the areas which are far from the conflict zones (sorry guys, I am reaping this I guess for thousand times, but there is no other way), it is occuping cities and villages out of Akhazia and Samachablo, ruining eth and stealing anything outside or inside the houses, this are showed by every international channel! please switch on TV! You can believe ath you want, that's your right, but that does not mean what you want to believe is true.
3)To leave Samachablo without protection? Samachablo is Georgia and the only thing which Russia did and does is sowing a conflict between Georgians and Osetians.

This is very very very briefly without details, you can find further informaiton on the 112 pages, there are more than enough to understand what is going on here and make necessary conclusions.

[SiD]

Lor,

How commonly known it is in Georgia that part of what happens is because You have been
kind of "caught in the crossfire" for geopolitical reasons ?

I don't know how common it is, but Georgians on this forum seem to be aware more or less, about the fact that Russians didn't invade them for South Ossetia conflict, but for their desire to be free and western. I think that this part is pretty common. Some Georgians that were in the affected areas, don't even think at all.. Their only thoughts are how to get their lives back. They don't care who, where, when and why this war started.They just want it to finish!!

Wow that is interesting realy . It is 100% about Saakashvili but he has halucinations as well. You can see it even in your free media.
Lor give me answer please do you support S Osetia and Abkchazia independance? yes or no.

By the way no matter when Georgia sent thier forces to Iraq they supported US agression that is all.

[Grid]

Grid, as i said, go on my posts and you will have different sources of information of what happened. From Moscow and Europe, both sides. After you read it all we can talk about it. :livre

I really don't have time to read through 112 pages.
Please, send me a link to post with your concentrated opinion and with facts that you know (may be create it).

[independent]

Sid,

I'm Interested to hear Your opinion:
Which one russians want to be next US president - Obama or McCain ?

[SiD]

Sid,

I'm Interested to hear Your opinion:
Which one russians want to be next US president - Obama or McCain ?

Obama. Both of them condamned Russia and both promised some kind of punishment but Obama looks to me as smart and rational man, while McCain is eager for confrontation and can do something REALY stupid to spoil Russia- US relationship for years if not decades.

[Grid]

Dear Grid,
3)To leave Samachablo without protection? Samachablo is Georgia and the only thing which Russia did and does is sowing a conflict between Georgians and Osetians.

I mean Ossetian territory. What if Russia leave Ossetia and Giorgia kills another 1600 people in few hours?
You repeat that Russia has occupied Giorgia. Why don't you mention why it happened? My answer is: because Giorgia has committed huge crime. Saakashvili is fire starter. Gorgians started war and now they complain that war is not good for them. Of course it's not good. But why it was started? Maybe some crazy thoughts came into
Saakashvili mind with help of Bush? May be Saakashvili thinks that on own territory he can kill hundreds of people. Is ability to do such things is called "territorial integrity"? Are all this people sacrificed for some political game against Russia that US leads? I don't know answer for this question. But it looks very very suspicious. And very serious international investigation should take place (not US or somebody elses propaganda).

[timetolove]

Russia was ignored pushed aside and ridiculed, written off by the west, while Russia had deligently helped the US to do as it pleases in Iraq, Afghanistan and around the world
Russia die not file complaints at the UN against the US, for genocide comitted by American forces against unarmed innocent children and civillians in Iraq, a total of over one million of them massacred by the US forces.
This is American style democracy, that has murdered a million of starved population.
Yet the Russians despite their horror of the American murder machine, had not objected.
When US forces and weaponry was used against Russian civil population and murdered in cold blood as the Iraqis, the Russians were not so cooperative, and chased the American lead coalition invadersout of Russian territory, as the population proudly call it.

Most Russians view the West as Hitler's reincarnation in these terror creating murder campaign, which the west calls Democracy, for in democracy the masses has no right except to take part in fixed elections.
That is a typical Russian-- Eastern view.

America's attack on Russia's citizens, will galvanize Russia China India Iran South America, Most of Africa and Pakistan.

Russia reached out a helping hand to the west, and the west murdered Russia's citizens in return.
This is a wrong approach, Russia wants Bush impeached for war crimes!
It is not the way to peacfull coexistence, when a mad lunitic is running America!
If Bush had dogs bombed in America, he would be arrested, yet he can order the killing of innocent elderly Russian citizens!
America's values are worst than common criminals'.
Who would bombared apartment buildings in the middle of the night, and level it to the ground?
Who would bombared apartment buildings in the middle of the night that are populated by elderly people?
Only Americans under Bush are so cold blooded murderers.

Russia is not Iraq! God will not allow Satan worshipping America, to rule the world withits monytery sytems.

Massacres and Bush initiated wars must be replaced by dialogue, and the west must start showing love ad care before the world turns its back on them big time!
Stop attacking other nations, stop making your wars and weapons abd drugs, and start preaching the gospel and instead of dictating your immoral principals on the world, go and find some sanity yourself first, and shove your democracy where the sun do not shine, it is a license to slavery and opression.

This was a conclusive outome of a meeting with 50 plus university students from Russia, Gorgia and Ukraine.
Many of them do not trust the west, and they may be right, we need to shoot less, before we can gain their trust again. Propaganda may not do it here, transparency is demanded not war, nor excuses.
The Russians America used to be a champion of pace and freedom, today they are tyrants, pirates.

They want peace in Iraq, not a wholesale killing of innocents.
let us all pray for peace, that Russia and the West will continue to coexist in harmony and peace.
And if that means to impeach Bush, so be it, it is still better than nuclear war, let us be serious for a change!
Act for peace, and refuse to kill/hurt another human!
The west is not a bunch of buthchers, only some of our leaders are evil, and we should be intelligent enough to dump and subdue them before we have another Hitler on our hands dictating us to world war 3.

Tom Jackson from KIev

[Lenus]

Dear Grid,
3)To leave Samachablo without protection? Samachablo is Georgia and the only thing which Russia did and does is sowing a conflict between Georgians and Osetians.

I mean Ossetian territory. What if Russia leave Ossetia and Giorgia kills another 1600 people in few hours?
You repeat that Russia has occupied Giorgia. Why don't you mention why it happened? My answer is: because Giorgia has committed huge crime. Saakashvili is fire starter. Gorgians started war and now they complain that war is not good for them. Of course it's not good. But why it was started? Maybe some crazy thoughts came into
Saakashvili mind with help of Bush? May be Saakashvili thinks that on own territory he can kill hundreds of people. Is ability to do such things is called "territorial integrity"? Are all this people sacrificed for some political game against Russia that US leads? I don't know answer for this question. But it looks very very suspicious. And very serious international investigation should take place (not US or somebody elses propaganda).

Grid,

That is called prejudice. You automatically assume we alreay HAVE killed 1600 civilians , and putting in another hyputhecial situation where we could kill ANOTHER 1600??

There is a special topic opened by me - Deth Toll exaggerated by Russia. Please read it.

Besides, you probably have heard of Presumption of Innocence. Russia started punishing us without having real figures, any evidence and its hardly presenting any evdience now of mass-murdering the civilians.

However they have peformed what is called "an information attack". Doesn't matter if they find the causalties afterwards, its Georgia who has to defend itself - No, we didn't kill ANY Civilians.

So, Grid, WE DIDNT DO IT. Unless you have evdience ready in hand, I suggest you dont use it as an argument.

Furthermore, Even if Russian withdrw, don't you think OSCE, UN, or any other organisation isn'e honest enough to ensure civilans are not "mass-murdered"??

[Grid]

to Lenus
Russian exaggeration of number of dead Ossetians can easily happen. But I don't think that it's possible to deny that Giorgia has attacked Tskhinvali with a Grad multiple rocket launcher.

Article from Human Rights Watch organization (August 14) http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/...a19620.htm

"Human Rights Watch researchers interviewed about 30 individuals, including civilians who had remained in the city during the entire period of the fighting, a few civilians who had just returned to check on the state of their homes, and several members of South Ossetian forces.
...
The doctor also said that 44 bodies had been brought to the hospital since the fighting began, of both military and civilians
...
Human Rights Watch documented the damage caused to the hospital building by a rocket believed to have been fired from a Grad multiple rocket launcher which hit the hospital"

[Gift]

ey are only 100-200 not more. So be carefull with your posts KGB is not dreaming. FSB is working hard to kill those second Russsia which is small and can not have any influance on "Russians real soul"
Eto est zagadochnaia ruskai dusha??

Where did you get that numbers - 100-200 :haha For 140 mln that's too little isn't it?

I'm careful with my posts enough - actually we don't feel FSB or government influence until you're a radical political party member and go for protest marches I'm not.