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M.Helen Wrote:unfortunately there are very few South Osetians here because the situation there is disastrous and they now can't afford to spend time chatting and giving opinions. I think in few days we will hear opinions of these people.
You are right about their current conditions but i can assure you that their opinions would be an independence beneath a Russian government(!).. And i think the questions asked by Salomo are directed to pro-Russians that already gives their opinions..
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actually you can watch TV news, I saw yesterday Osetian people interviewed. They are totally against Georgia
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M.Helen Wrote:actually you can watch TV news, I saw yesterday Osetian people interviewed. They are totally against Georgia
Did i say anything against that??
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SiD Wrote:You could as well trow out first part. Becouse it is not appilation for help it is call against Russia. Do you really think that other countries would commit suicide just becouse they are asked to do so? And many words about Russia are REAL offending. And many could mean as call for aggression against us, and it is absolutely unnaccepteble. And it REALY LOOKS LIKE PRAPOGANDA ( even if it is not, but i REALY doubt it).
I did not say to throw out the first part - and it is not a propaganda - this is my personal attitude toward the action of Russian Government. Once again - my reaction - if thats a propaganda try to find it elsewhere! Why do yu think that contraversing Russia is a suicide?
Once again
"When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.”
Pastor Martin Niemöller
You say many words are offending - you are taking about words - true words! - and right now Russin troops are envading my country - what is really offending?!
You say - that I appeal for aggression toward Russia - NOT CORRECT - I appeal towrad any action that might influence the situation - and believe me I do not care whether it is acceptable or not for you.
SiD Wrote:Did i understood correctly that i must be against general national interests of my country?
In that case could you please define the general interest of your country - Promoting anaything to varify the actions - anything except the truth ?
SiD Wrote:You can find answers to your questions in this topic. Just read from the begining if you have time.
I ve read the whole article carefully - but no direct answers
As for classics lets skip - but why dont you have answer for the following
as I have stated above - Lets minorly analyze the russian actions towrad Georgia
1999 - Economic blockade of Georgia all import from Russia was stopped - Turkey started the import and contributed for its 80% - otherwise we would have starved.
Russian goverment issued the visa regime with Georgia - The next day Turkey opened their borders without viza regime
Right now russians are destroying and every day blowing up the infrastructure of Georgia (ports, hospitals, campuses, railways, burning forests, destrying houses, robbing people) - and what was the first statement of Turkey Prime minister - We will help you to reconstruct everything!
SO.. you still have questions why we try to defend ourthelves from Russia - Give me at least one point why I should thing vice versa!
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M.Helen Wrote:actually you can watch TV news, I saw yesterday Osetian people interviewed. They are totally against Georgia
What was the source - Russian Media? And you believe that ? If Osetians do not whant to deal with Georgians - could yu please explain me why the majority of families are mixed - Georgian-Osetian couples? Also when talking about South Osetia - Please be very carefull - you are taking about part of Georgia - You say Interviewed Osetians - who feel comfortable right now? - such are less than 5% of total South Osetia polulation. Why do not they show you the interviews of refugees Georgians and Osetians who used to live in South Osetia - or as they are not wellcome right now thir opinion does not quote ?
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M.Helen Wrote:actually you can watch TV news, I saw yesterday Osetian people interviewed. They are totally against Georgia Helen Many osethians are living in another parts of Georgia and even they have there villages out of SO. region. We have many mixed families. For you it maybe interesting that we are providing for them :
TV and radio broadcasting in Osethian language,
Theatres and newspapres in Osethian
Quatas in universities
So they are not deprived in Georgia we are offering them wide authonomy and representation in govermant ( 2 ministers in govermant are osethian ) they are presenting in Parliament and local govermants. If you are confused about how we preserve there rights I can assure you we are doing awerithing for it, but separatists small group with Russians support are trying to change balance. Russia does not need this peace of land, they need to keep this conflict for ears to have a "hot spot" in heart of Georgia. Look at the map, read about history of my country and I suppose you will understand. ( Sorry to push you in this, but I am offering this to you , because in seems to me that you are interesting in problem).
Dont think that all osethians are involved in war now and thats way you can not hear there voices here. Our russian friends are doing this better than they will do. Majority of osethians are now stressed in another parts of Georgia and shocked with the Russias politics in my country. I can put Georgain links here, but they will be not reliable here because you will say they are Georgain sources and you will be right. But trust me - problem does not lie in Osethians and Georgians, but in Russians ambitions not to let Georgia rush out of interests sphere of this superpower.
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AlexanderBB Wrote:As for classics lets skip - but why dont you have answer for the following
as I have stated above - Lets minorly analyze the russian actions towrad Georgia
1999 - Economic blockade of Georgia all import from Russia was stopped - Turkey started the import and contributed for its 80% - otherwise we would have starved.
Russian goverment issued the visa regime with Georgia - The next day Turkey opened their borders without viza regime
Right now russians are destroying and every day blowing up the infrastructure of Georgia (ports, hospitals, campuses, railways, burning forests, destrying houses, robbing people) - and what was the first statement of Turkey Prime minister - We will help you to reconstruct everything!
What answer do you wait, Turkey is your best friend? anyway you give no reasons for sanctions against Georgia and they were placed not becouse we like to place sanctions to everyone we can.
AlexanderBB Wrote:When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.” Such words are absolutely unnacceptable. Nazi tryed to enslave or destroy both our nations, we are in S Osetia to defend people. And it was brought upon you by reckless actions of your own politicions so search for nazi somewere else.
One of general interests of my country is security. That mean that we must have influence in strategicaly important regions near our border. Not by military means of course, but as i said look at yor government actions.
You have right to defend yourselves of course but that doesnt mean that you were right begining this war.
If during military action innocent people died it is Real tragedy and everyone knows that.
If our soldiers act wrong it is REAL SHAME. They should treat local population well and with respect. Still they must defend themselves too even Russian soldiers want to live you know. And i hope that they will return home soon it was never our intation to occupie Georgia.
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russian occupants get out from georgia...vandals..
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SiD Wrote:AlexanderBB Wrote:As for classics lets skip - but why dont you have answer for the following
as I have stated above - Lets minorly analyze the russian actions towrad Georgia
1999 - Economic blockade of Georgia all import from Russia was stopped - Turkey started the import and contributed for its 80% - otherwise we would have starved.
Russian goverment issued the visa regime with Georgia - The next day Turkey opened their borders without viza regime
Right now russians are destroying and every day blowing up the infrastructure of Georgia (ports, hospitals, campuses, railways, burning forests, destrying houses, robbing people) - and what was the first statement of Turkey Prime minister - We will help you to reconstruct everything!
What answer do you wait, Turkey is your best friend? anyway you give no reasons for sanctions against Georgia and they were placed not becouse we like to place sanctions to everyone we can.
AlexanderBB Wrote:When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.” Such words are absolutely unnacceptable. Nazi tryed to enslave or destroy both our nations, we are in S Osetia to defend people. And it was brought upon you by reckless actions of your own politicions so search for nazi somewere else.
One of general interests of my country is security. That mean that we must have influence in strategicaly important regions near our border. Not by military means of course, but as i said look at yor government actions.
You have right to defend yourselves of course but that doesnt mean that you were right begining this war.
If during military action innocent people died it is Real tragedy and everyone knows that.
If our soldiers act wrong it is REAL SHAME. They should treat local population well and with respect. Still they must defend themselves too even Russian soldiers want to live you know. And i hope that they will return home soon it was never our intation to occupie Georgia.
Sid
its my country and you CAN NOT defend osethians here!! It is international law! Respect it and you will part of the civilaized society, if you will not do this you will be withdrow from there. I am very sorry to tell you this, but have feeling if I am talking with old comunist. I am very glad that USSR collapsed, we, Georgians work on this hard, so we will work harder not to restor empaire. If Russia have its interests in Georgia and Goergia - independant, souveren country doesnot want to be part of this intrests, Russia must understand it and give up. If it not uderstand whole world will try with differant methods to explain it. And finally it will understand, as it happens in begining of 90-th ( collapse of USSR). Dont destroy your own country with such attitude.
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Eka Wrote:Sid
its my country and you CAN NOT defend osethians here!! It is international law! Respect it and you will part of the civilaized society, if you will not do this you will be withdrow from there. I am very sorry to tell you this, but have feeling if I am talking with old comunist. I am very glad that USSR collapsed, we, Georgians work on this hard, so we will work harder not to restor empaire. If Russia have its interests in Georgia and Goergia - independant, souveren country doesnot want to be part of this intrests, Russia must understand it and give up. If it not uderstand whole world will try with differant methods to explain it. And finally it will understand, as it happens in begining of 90-th ( collapse of USSR). Dont destroy your own country with such attitude.
Eka do not make me lough  . We had peacekeaping mandate, you attacked, you were punished, law upholded, people saved. By the way your best friends do not care about international law too much.
Lets put it like this: Russia big, sovereign, independent country and your nighbor doesnt want you to be part of foreign military alliances you must understand it and give up. And do not worry only way how we can destroy our country is to allow anyone ignore our national interests. And whole world must finaly understand it.
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SiD Wrote:Eka Wrote:Sid
its my country and you CAN NOT defend osethians here!! It is international law! Respect it and you will part of the civilaized society, if you will not do this you will be withdrow from there. I am very sorry to tell you this, but have feeling if I am talking with old comunist. I am very glad that USSR collapsed, we, Georgians work on this hard, so we will work harder not to restor empaire. If Russia have its interests in Georgia and Goergia - independant, souveren country doesnot want to be part of this intrests, Russia must understand it and give up. If it not uderstand whole world will try with differant methods to explain it. And finally it will understand, as it happens in begining of 90-th ( collapse of USSR). Dont destroy your own country with such attitude.
Eka do not make me lough . We had peacekeaping mandate, you attacked, you were punished, law upholded, people saved. By the way your best friends do not care about international law too much.
Lets put it like this: Russia big, sovereign, independent country and your nighbor doesnt want you to be part of foreign military alliances you must understand it and give up. And do not worry only way how we can destroy our country is to allow anyone ignore our national interests. And whole world must finaly understand it.
Sid here are many pages of discusions about this issues so I dont want to repeate all again.
Be patient as we are ,mandate will be soon or late denonsated. especialy in Abxazia( it is easier to it there).
Whole world will not understand the Russia because you are not democratic country. Because you have something like monarchi and those little guys changing each other .You are at this moment understood by Cuba, Belorus, Hesbola leaders and recently by Siria. Not too much for democratic countries. Whole world is explainig to you that " boys you are wrong, give up. go away," Only God doesnot came down from skys to tell you this ( but send POpe ) So how many time you will wait for understanding? 10year, 20? World will undesrtand you when it will realize that you are democratic country.
You can wait and wait . Maybe some another leaders like Ugo Chaves will back Russia, but not West. And meanweal you russians want to be more westen. You like travel, sending your children to west for educaTION SO FIND Ballance and be happy!
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SiD Wrote:AlexanderBB Wrote:As for classics lets skip - but why dont you have answer for the following
as I have stated above - Lets minorly analyze the russian actions towrad Georgia
1999 - Economic blockade of Georgia all import from Russia was stopped - Turkey started the import and contributed for its 80% - otherwise we would have starved.
Russian goverment issued the visa regime with Georgia - The next day Turkey opened their borders without viza regime
Right now russians are destroying and every day blowing up the infrastructure of Georgia (ports, hospitals, campuses, railways, burning forests, destrying houses, robbing people) - and what was the first statement of Turkey Prime minister - We will help you to reconstruct everything!
What answer do you wait, Turkey is your best friend? anyway you give no reasons for sanctions against Georgia and they were placed not becouse we like to place sanctions to everyone we can.
AlexanderBB Wrote:When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.” Such words are absolutely unnacceptable. Nazi tryed to enslave or destroy both our nations, we are in S Osetia to defend people. And it was brought upon you by reckless actions of your own politicions so search for nazi somewere else.
One of general interests of my country is security. That mean that we must have influence in strategicaly important regions near our border. Not by military means of course, but as i said look at yor government actions.
You have right to defend yourselves of course but that doesnt mean that you were right begining this war.
If during military action innocent people died it is Real tragedy and everyone knows that.
If our soldiers act wrong it is REAL SHAME. They should treat local population well and with respect. Still they must defend themselves too even Russian soldiers want to live you know. And i hope that they will return home soon it was never our intation to occupie Georgia.
Sid,
Turkey is our neibghour, as well as Russia - The only fact I wanted to stress was that the Russian Imperialistic politics does not change toward us - and we dont want to bear it any more!!! Our reaction is derived from the decisons of Russia actions. Why I am trying to stress Turkey because with Russia we have much more common Two and Only Ortodox Contries in the region and it is Turkey helping us adn Russia destryoing! As for reasoning for such decions - ask your president whom you have elected. I think this is his perssonal ambition - this is just my opinion.
As for unecceptable words - YES, your military forces are acting the same way as NAZI and Russia acts like 21 century NAZI - swollow or eat it - I dont care about that and facts say evrything by themeself! And please Do not explain who Nazis are - if you consider proportionaly toward nations in the 2ww Georgians had the highest loses - my 4 grandfathers died in that war!
The Rest is DEMAGOGY!!!!
Osetains were, are and will be Georgians! You say russian troops came to defend osetians -BULLSHIT!
There is no conflict between osetians and Georgians or Abkhazians and Georgians. There are separatist forces in those regions supported by Russian Government - all of them having villas in Moscou - imitating as there is some ethnical conflict - commoooon.. Russia needs these imitated conflicts to control Georgia. If you are that sure that ossetians and ahkhazians need protection why do you rezist of international peecekeepers coming to the zone - because you know that there is no conflict! and the next day people will come out and reunion after years of crime Russians have done. Nevertheless we do not fear you - that is the key point you should understand - You are all the time trying to moce the stress to Georgian government - and I am trying that you are not opposing Georgian government you are opposing Georgian People and Georgian Nation! I dont care about Saakashvili max he will be in government for the nex 2 years - but nobody ever will forget what russians have done and are right now doing - You nedeed to turn your best allies into enemies - my congratulations -you suceeded!
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Eka Wrote:Whole world is explainig to you that " boys you are wrong, give up. go away,"
You know ( А Васька слушает да ест).
AlexanderBB Wrote:Sid,
Turkey is our neibghour, as well as Russia - The only fact I wanted to stress was that the Russian Imperialistic politics does not change toward us - and we dont want to bear it any more!!! Our reaction is derived from the decisons of Russia actions. Why I am trying to stress Turkey because with Russia we have much more common Two and Only Ortodox Contries in the region and it is Turkey helping us adn Russia destryoing! As for reasoning for such decions - ask your president whom you have elected. I think this is his perssonal ambition - this is just my opinion.
Turkey is member of NATO too if you do not know. AlexanderBB Wrote:Osetains were, are and will be Georgians! You say russian troops came to defend osetians -BULLSHIT!
There is no conflict between osetians and Georgians or Abkhazians and Georgians. There are separatist forces in those regions supported by Russian Government - all of them having villas in Moscou - imitating as there is some ethnical conflict - commoooon.. Russia needs these imitated conflicts to control Georgia. If you are that sure that ossetians and ahkhazians need protection why do you rezist of international peecekeepers coming to the zone - because you know that there is no conflict! and the next day people will come out and reunion after years of crime Russians have done. Nevertheless we do not fear you - that is the key point you should understand - You are all the time trying to moce the stress to Georgian government - and I am trying that you are not opposing Georgian government you are opposing Georgian People and Georgian Nation! I dont care about Saakashvili max he will be in government for the nex 2 years - but nobody ever will forget what russians have done and are right now doing - You nedeed to turn your best allies into enemies - my congratulations -you suceeded!
That is realy cool. That is what could be caled BULLSHIT. with such allies who need enemies?
there were statments like yours before if you red from begining you know my answers. Or you can remember answers of others.
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AlexanderBB Wrote:Sid,
Turkey is our neibghour, as well as Russia - The only fact I wanted to stress was that the Russian Imperialistic politics does not change toward us - and we dont want to bear it any more!!! Our reaction is derived from the decisons of Russia actions. Why I am trying to stress Turkey because with Russia we have much more common Two and Only Ortodox Contries in the region and it is Turkey helping us adn Russia destryoing! As for reasoning for such decions - ask your president whom you have elected. I think this is his perssonal ambition - this is just my opinion.
As for unecceptable words - YES, your military forces are acting the same way as NAZI and Russia acts like 21 century NAZI - swollow or eat it - I dont care about that and facts say evrything by themeself! And please Do not explain who Nazis are - if you consider proportionaly toward nations in the 2ww Georgians had the highest loses - my 4 grandfathers died in that war!
The Rest is DEMAGOGY!!!!
Osetains were, are and will be Georgians! You say russian troops came to defend osetians -BULLSHIT!
There is no conflict between osetians and Georgians or Abkhazians and Georgians. There are separatist forces in those regions supported by Russian Government - all of them having villas in Moscou - imitating as there is some ethnical conflict - commoooon.. Russia needs these imitated conflicts to control Georgia. If you are that sure that ossetians and ahkhazians need protection why do you rezist of international peecekeepers coming to the zone - because you know that there is no conflict! and the next day people will come out and reunion after years of crime Russians have done. Nevertheless we do not fear you - that is the key point you should understand - You are all the time trying to moce the stress to Georgian government - and I am trying that you are not opposing Georgian government you are opposing Georgian People and Georgian Nation! I dont care about Saakashvili max he will be in government for the nex 2 years - but nobody ever will forget what russians have done and are right now doing - You nedeed to turn your best allies into enemies - my congratulations -you suceeded!
That is exactşy what i have been trying to tell about the situation, and the Russian act is completely unacceptable.. I have never thought that one day i'm going to say that but in this situation Georgia completely in need of US and EU political intervention...
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Sid,
I realize it is sensless to discuss with you - what I am trying to do is to give others the tool or material for comparizon between arguments - so they can realize where the truth is!
As for Turkey and NATO - there are more - Canada, Bulgaria, Belgium, UK, US, Spain, Romania, Italy, Netherlands, Luxemburg, Portugal, Norway, Germany, France, Poland, denmark, Chez. Rep, Lithuania, Latvia, Hungary, Greece, Iceland, Estonia, Slovakia, Slovenia.
So what if Turkey? They are our neibghours like Russia.
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I have already explained everything. You knew how your movement toward NATO was viewed in Russia.
You must understand that your country is NOT center of the world. All democratic countries wont commit suicide just becouse you are so eager to serve them. They are concerned but not ready to sacrifice themselves or thier interests for your sake. FACE IT. No one wants war with Russia becouse georgians willing to allow fool to lead thier country. WAKE UP!
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RUSSIANS GO HOME! LET GEORGIA FREE! :nonnon
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SiD Wrote:I have already explained everything. You knew how your movement toward NATO was viewed in Russia.
You must understand that your country is NOT center of the world. All democratic countries wont commit suicide just becouse you are so eager to serve them. They are concerned but not ready to sacrifice themselves or thier interests for your sake. FACE IT. No one wants war with Russia becouse georgians willing to allow fool to lead thier country. WAKE UP!
Haha finally
That the logic and argument of Russia.
We are not the center of the world but we have strategic Geogrphical location in the region - you are trying to rezist our entrence into NATO - We want to enter into NATO to defend ourselves FROM YOU! But that is the second argment by importance - The key aspect is that we were able to adobt and impliment westren life style through the synergy of local traditions - we enjoy our life - we live much better than ever! We are devoloping and these can be observed day to day! We have problems and we are solving them - After economic blocade from Russia we found the ability to continue developing! WE ARE SUCCESSING! We do not want to get back to communizm and stagnation - we had that enough! we are not interfiering with you - please do not interfier with us. Mainly this gives the answer why your military are destroying our infrastucture - possibly envy! if there was no aggression from Russia I really dobt why should we have enterd NATO - Now this is the only obvious solution!
Now you wake UP!
Yu can kill the president but you can do nothing with the will of nation
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AlexanderBB Wrote:Haha finally
That the logic and argument of Russia.
We are not the center of the world but we have strategic Geogrphical location in the region - you are trying to rezist our entrence into NATO - We want to enter into NATO to defend ourselves FROM YOU! But that is the second argment by importance - The key aspect is that we were able to adobt and impliment westren life style through the synergy of local traditions - we enjoy our life - we live much better than ever! We are devoloping and these can be observed day to day! We have problems and we are solving them - After economic blocade from Russia we found the ability to continue developing! WE ARE SUCCESSING! We do not want to get back to communizm and stagnation - we had that enough! we are not interfiering with you - please do not interfier with us. Mainly this gives the answer why your military are destroying our infrastucture - possibly envy! if there was no aggression from Russia I really dobt why should we have enterd NATO - Now this is the only obvious solution!
Now you wake UP!
Yu can kill the president but you can do nothing with the will of nation
Well you can see our concerns well enough at least.
Did you ever heard what your president was talking or you do not care? he was ready to jump into NATO any time 24 hours a day.
Well you can continue being foolish and try to endanger Russia but you will bring nor security nor territoryal integrity to Georgia.
And we do not want Saakashvili dead. Not in our interests.
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But the notion of collective defense is a more complicated matter now that NATO has expanded to include 26 countries, foreign policy experts said, including former Soviet republics like Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, not to mention the Czech Republic and Poland. Although some said that NATO might at least try to rustle up a defense for those countries if they were attacked, the concept of collective defense falls apart completely in the case of Georgia and Ukraine — both smack in Russia’s backyard and sphere of influence — even if they were NATO members.
“If Georgia was in NATO now, would we be defending them? I don’t know,” said Charles Kupchan, a senior fellow with the Council on Foreign Relations. “The alliance needs to make sure that when it takes on pledges of collective defense, it is prepared to stand by them.”
European officials said they were not about to get into a military confrontation with Russia over Georgia. That is why European countries have blocked the Bush administration’s efforts to bring Georgia and Ukraine into the alliance, said a senior European diplomat involved in the NATO emergency meeting on Tuesday.
While the NATO statement did promise to consider the idea of beginning Georgia’s accession to NATO in December, the diplomat said that in reality, the prospects were virtually nil. “It’s impossible,” he said, speaking on the condition of anonymity under normal diplomatic procedure.
The alliance’s charter, he pointed out, stipulates that potential NATO members have to resolve outstanding border issues before joining. That alone would block Georgia’s entry. In addition, he said, European countries are not interested in granting Georgia membership just to spite Russia.
Similarly, it is doubtful that the United States, its military stretched in Iraq and Afghanistan, would go to war with Russia to defend Georgia even if it were a member of NATO, said George Friedman, chief executive of Stratfor, a geopolitical risk analysis company.
“The assumption that everybody made was that a mere guarantee by NATO would preclude any threat because the Russians would never dare displease NATO or the United States,” he said. Except now, he said, Russia has called the West’s bluff.
Tuesday’s emergency session brought the fractures in NATO into sharp relief. Even before the meeting started, the French, Germans and even the British were saying that they had no intention of seeking to isolate Russia. “We asked others not to stop relations between NATO and Russia,” Bernard Kouchner, the French foreign minister, said in an interview. “We have to talk to them, but if they don’t implement their promises, we have to react and stand up strongly.”
Still, he said: “We need firmness, not threats. We must not threaten them, because it will not work. Because everyone knows we are not going to war.”
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice gave a long discourse about not letting Russia off the hook. “If we do, it will come back to haunt us,” Ms. Rice said, according to the official.
But that was as far as she went, he said. “Rhetorically, it was very good,” he said, “but it became clear that she does not want to start a cold war either.” He added that the Americans knew that with the exception of Poland, the Czech Republic and the Baltics, Europe was resisting even a slight increase in the pressure on Russia.
That was in sharp contrast to the nations of the “new” Europe. The Czech Republic’s foreign minister, Karel Schwarzenberg, spoke for them when he responded that Europe was already in a new cold war, and that NATO had to act, according to diplomats in the room.
But in the end, all NATO could muster was the establishment of the NATO-Georgia Council (which American officials billed as a slap in the face of Russia because it contained the words “NATO” and “Georgia” simultaneously). It also warned that until Russian troops pull out of Georgia, it would not convene another meeting of the NATO-Russia Council, which was already a pretty vague joint venture.
“We’re not abandoning the NATO-Russia Council, but as long as Russian forces are occupying a vast part of Georgia, I cannot see the NATO-Russia Council reconvening,” Mr. de Hoop Scheffer said, adding quickly, “But we certainly don’t mean to close all doors with Russia.”
One Russian official scoffed at the alliance’s response on Tuesday. Said Dmitry Rogozin, Russia’s representative to NATO: “The mountain has given birth to a mouse.”
Steven Erlanger and Tom Rachman contributed reporting from Paris, and Graham Bowley from New York.
It is from The New York Times.
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SiD"]But the notion of collective defense is a more complicated matter now that NATO has expanded to include 26 countries, foreign policy experts said, including former Soviet republics like Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, not to mention the Czech Republic and Poland. Although some said that NATO might at least try to rustle up a defense for those countries if they were attacked, the concept of collective defense falls apart completely in the case of Georgia and Ukraine — both smack in Russia’s backyard and sphere of influence — even if they were NATO members.
“If Georgia was in NATO now, would we be defending them? I don’t know,” said Charles Kupchan, a senior fellow with the Council on Foreign Relations. “The alliance needs to make sure that when it takes on pledges of collective defense, it is prepared to stand by them.”
European officials said they were not about to get into a military confrontation with Russia over Georgia. That is why European countries have blocked the Bush administration’s efforts to bring Georgia and Ukraine into the alliance, said a senior European diplomat involved in the NATO emergency meeting on Tuesday.
While the NATO statement did promise to consider the idea of beginning Georgia’s accession to NATO in December, the diplomat said that in reality, the prospects were virtually nil. “It’s impossible,” he said, speaking on the condition of anonymity under normal diplomatic procedure.
The alliance’s charter, he pointed out, stipulates that potential NATO members have to resolve outstanding border issues before joining. That alone would block Georgia’s entry. In addition, he said, European countries are not interested in granting Georgia membership just to spite Russia.
Similarly, it is doubtful that the United States, its military stretched in Iraq and Afghanistan, would go to war with Russia to defend Georgia even if it were a member of NATO, said George Friedman, chief executive of Stratfor, a geopolitical risk analysis company.
“The assumption that everybody made was that a mere guarantee by NATO would preclude any threat because the Russians would never dare displease NATO or the United States,” he said. Except now, he said, Russia has called the West’s bluff.
Tuesday’s emergency session brought the fractures in NATO into sharp relief. Even before the meeting started, the French, Germans and even the British were saying that they had no intention of seeking to isolate Russia. “We asked others not to stop relations between NATO and Russia,” Bernard Kouchner, the French foreign minister, said in an interview. “We have to talk to them, but if they don’t implement their promises, we have to react and stand up strongly.”
Still, he said: “We need firmness, not threats. We must not threaten them, because it will not work. Because everyone knows we are not going to war.”
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice gave a long discourse about not letting Russia off the hook. “If we do, it will come back to haunt us,” Ms. Rice said, according to the official.
But that was as far as she went, he said. “Rhetorically, it was very good,” he said, “but it became clear that she does not want to start a cold war either.” He added that the Americans knew that with the exception of Poland, the Czech Republic and the Baltics, Europe was resisting even a slight increase in the pressure on Russia.
That was in sharp contrast to the nations of the “new” Europe. The Czech Republic’s foreign minister, Karel Schwarzenberg, spoke for them when he responded that Europe was already in a new cold war, and that NATO had to act, according to diplomats in the room.
But in the end, all NATO could muster was the establishment of the NATO-Georgia Council (which American officials billed as a slap in the face of Russia because it contained the words “NATO” and “Georgia” simultaneously). It also warned that until Russian troops pull out of Georgia, it would not convene another meeting of the NATO-Russia Council, which was already a pretty vague joint venture.
“We’re not abandoning the NATO-Russia Council, but as long as Russian forces are occupying a vast part of Georgia, I cannot see the NATO-Russia Council reconvening,” Mr. de Hoop Scheffer said, adding quickly, “But we certainly don’t mean to close all doors with Russia.”
One Russian official scoffed at the alliance’s response on Tuesday. Said Dmitry Rogozin, Russia’s representative to NATO: “The mountain has given birth to a mouse.”
Steven Erlanger and Tom Rachman contributed reporting from Paris, and Graham Bowley from New York.
It is from The New Jork Times.[/quote]
WHo will tell me what a newspaper is New Jork TImes :haha :haha
Maybe new FSB newspaper
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