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<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/20/world/europe/20diplo.html?hp">http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/20/world ... lo.html?hp</a><!-- m -->
There is the link. See yourself.
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Mariam-GEORGIAN Wrote:WHo will tell me what a newspaper is New Jork TImes Sorry my mistake  .
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SiD Wrote:I have already explained everything. You knew how your movement toward NATO was viewed in Russia.
You must understand that your country is NOT center of the world. All democratic countries wont commit suicide just becouse you are so eager to serve them. They are concerned but not ready to sacrifice themselves or thier interests for your sake. FACE IT. No one wants war with Russia becouse georgians willing to allow fool to lead thier country. WAKE UP!
You like all the russians are horned. Can't enter into disputs. for u there is only the truth on the world - RUSSIA. :haha Why do you think that the outcome from this situation is the war? Becouse you are commited to the war. You have it in genetics. Seems u are desparitly in a need to kill the people. You seem are too thursty of new blood. YOU WNAT TO FEAR THE WORLD, but don't forget we are more!!!!
And Idon"t care do you and your shity citizens and government like saakashvili or not. We don't like your putin-medvedev duet, but that was the will of your nation and please enjoy the HELL!!!!
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Sid I dont now when it happens( NATO EU) maybe it will be after some years I dont know. Bur 1 thing I know 100% we never ever be part of Russia Empire, USSR and SNG and something another you will invent.
We will be independant with abxazia and osthetia ( shida kartli) in Georgia. You can not understand 1 very simpple thing : Russian troops are occupiang my country and it is against any international laws. Another things can be disscused but not this.
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Eka Wrote:Sid I dont now when it happens( NATO EU) maybe it will be after some years I dont know. Bur 1 thing I know 100% we never ever be part of Russia Empire, USSR and SNG and something another you will invent.
We will be independant with abxazia and osthetia ( shida kartli) in Georgia. You can not understand 1 very simpple thing : Russian troops are occupiang my country and it is against any international laws. Another things can be disscused but not this.
Actualy our forces are pulling back. So if your leaders will be wise you will be just fine. Dont you think that people of S Osetia and Abkchazia are having same filings about Georgia like you about Russia? I do not think they eager to reunite with your country.
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SiD Wrote:Eka Wrote:Sid I dont now when it happens( NATO EU) maybe it will be after some years I dont know. Bur 1 thing I know 100% we never ever be part of Russia Empire, USSR and SNG and something another you will invent.
We will be independant with abxazia and osthetia ( shida kartli) in Georgia. You can not understand 1 very simpple thing : Russian troops are occupiang my country and it is against any international laws. Another things can be disscused but not this.
Actualy our forces are pulling back. So if your leaders will be wise you will be just fine. Dont you think that people of S Osetia and Abkchazia are having same filings about Georgia like you about Russia? I do not think they eager to reunite with your country. My dear Sid
I will be very patient and will expalin you once more. Georgais teritorial integrity is not questioned on this stage.If abxazians and osethians dont wont to live in Georgia and if they are citizrns of Russia EU, USA and so on they can do whAT they like.If referendum is neede I will be with both hends for this referendum buT: ONLY WITH ALL DISPALCED PEOPLE :THIS are 350000 from abzxazia and 50000 or even more ( yet it is not known) from osethia. If chechnia can not be independant abxazia and sida kartli can not be independant too. If Russia will give indepndance to Chchenia ( IF simeone is left there who whants it and can be asked) I will be first who will vote for indepndace for Abxazia and OSethia. ok? HAVE YOU ANOTHER QUESTIONS?
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SiD Wrote:Eka Wrote:Sid I dont now when it happens( NATO EU) maybe it will be after some years I dont know. Bur 1 thing I know 100% we never ever be part of Russia Empire, USSR and SNG and something another you will invent.
We will be independant with abxazia and osthetia ( shida kartli) in Georgia. You can not understand 1 very simpple thing : Russian troops are occupiang my country and it is against any international laws. Another things can be disscused but not this.
Actualy our forces are pulling back. So if your leaders will be wise you will be just fine. Dont you think that people of S Osetia and Abkchazia are having same filings about Georgia like you about Russia? I do not think they eager to reunite with your country.
YOU lie. Your forces are reinforcing their posts. So don't spread this info. If you rely what your puppy president said to Sarkozi, I don't trust that lier either. He 3 times promised but never kept his word (nobody listens to him, Putin is deciding everything- what a shame for a man to be a puppy :haha ) We lived and will live in Friendship with OSetians and Abkhazians. We have many mixed families with them. So don't pretend like it is not in your governments' interest to make those nations enemies. You are working on this issue for more then 20 years. But when your forces will be fucked out from our territory then we will restore our relations. :mrgreen:
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2Mariam-GEORGIAN
" Why do you think that the outcome from this situation is the war? Becouse you are commited to the war. You have it in genetics. Seems u are desparitly in a need to kill the people. You seem are too thursty of new blood"
Look who is talking! Somebody who commited genocide of Ossetian people! For you it's ok to kill peaceful citizens, for us it's not ok to destroy your killing machines? Stop acting as if you are an offended little country being occupated by Russian troops. You should have paid for your barbarities in Ossetia. BTW isn't it comparable: you attacked ossetians, we attacked you.
"but don't forget we are more!!!!And Idon"t care do you and your shity citizens and government like saakashvili or not. " Of course now when you have been bought by US government you'll get some awards from it like becoming a member of nato and eu. But remember: you'll never be an independent country like us, you'll always stay just a puppet in US's dirty hands!
"We don't like your putin-medvedev duet, but that was the will of your nation and please enjoy the HELL!!!" the same we can say about your bung holing two-timing Saakashvily.
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Felice-Rosso Wrote:2Mariam-GEORGIAN
" Why do you think that the outcome from this situation is the war? Becouse you are commited to the war. You have it in genetics. Seems u are desparitly in a need to kill the people. You seem are too thursty of new blood"
Look who is talking! Somebody who commited genocide of Ossetian people! For you it's ok to kill peaceful citizens, for us it's not ok to destroy your killing machines? Stop acting as if you are an offended little country being occupated by Russian troops. You should have paid for your barbarities in Ossetia. BTW isn't it comparable: you attacked ossetians, we attacked you.
"but don't forget we are more!!!!And Idon"t care do you and your shity citizens and government like saakashvili or not. " Of course now when you have been bought by US government you'll get some awards from it like becoming a member of nato and eu. But remember: you'll never be an independent country like us, you'll always stay just a puppet in US's dirty hands!
"We don't like your putin-medvedev duet, but that was the will of your nation and please enjoy the HELL!!!" the same we can say about your bung holing two-timing Saakashvily.
You can't convince anybody in the image you were developing since 19th century "Savor", "Peacekeeper" . You, after killing so many children and young men in Chechnia, In Beslan, In NordOst, can dare to tell onyone that they are making a genocide???? How come that everytime someone is gulty not your velikaia derjava? Your solders killed hundreds of people in my country, in front of other people and they can confirm. Streets of the villages and the cities were full of the dead people (bothe civilians and militarists), Your "Saver" country so far did not allow any party: Red Cross, Church, Human rights watch to enter in those territories to bring dead people. You are a Nation (even u don't deserve to be named as a nation) of killers and murderers. And live in a peace we WILL BE FREE. :mrgreen:
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Mariam-GEORGIAN Wrote:YOU lie. Your forces are reinforcing their posts. So don't spread this info. If you rely what your puppy president said to Sarkozi, I don't trust that lier either. He 3 times promised but never kept his word (nobody listens to him, Putin is deciding everything- what a shame for a man to be a puppy :haha ) We lived and will live in Friendship with OSetians and Abkhazians. We have many mixed families with them. So don't pretend like it is not in your governments' interest to make those nations enemies. You are working on this issue for more then 20 years. But when your forces will be fucked out from our territory then we will restore our relations. :mrgreen:
But of course it was only peace, friendship and buble gum between georgians and s osetians before bad russians come and made you enemies. .
And you speak about lies? :lol: .
More nonsense that is all i see here.
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SiD Wrote:Mariam-GEORGIAN Wrote:YOU lie. Your forces are reinforcing their posts. So don't spread this info. If you rely what your puppy president said to Sarkozi, I don't trust that lier either. He 3 times promised but never kept his word (nobody listens to him, Putin is deciding everything- what a shame for a man to be a puppy :haha ) We lived and will live in Friendship with OSetians and Abkhazians. We have many mixed families with them. So don't pretend like it is not in your governments' interest to make those nations enemies. You are working on this issue for more then 20 years. But when your forces will be fucked out from our territory then we will restore our relations. :mrgreen:
But of course it was only peace, friendship and buble gum between georgians and s osetians before bad russians come and made you enemies. .
And you speak about lies? :lol: .
More nonsense that is all i see here.
It was always in your interest to make a tension between us and them. FOr you (as u seems are not ??? familiar with the problme) I'll explain again, your government with Separatists (KOKOITI and BAGAFSH) made this dirty play. Yes it was your fault to make this war between the neighbours. I'm explaining for Dummies: WE WITH OSETIANS AND ABKHAZ people have mixe families. SO how come we hated them but made a families with them? But for your nations sence fo freindship is not common. What can we talk about now and on. Therefore all the above seems for you NONEsense. Poor :haha
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SiD Wrote:Mariam-GEORGIAN Wrote:YOU lie. Your forces are reinforcing their posts. So don't spread this info. If you rely what your puppy president said to Sarkozi, I don't trust that lier either. He 3 times promised but never kept his word (nobody listens to him, Putin is deciding everything- what a shame for a man to be a puppy :haha ) We lived and will live in Friendship with OSetians and Abkhazians. We have many mixed families with them. So don't pretend like it is not in your governments' interest to make those nations enemies. You are working on this issue for more then 20 years. But when your forces will be fucked out from our territory then we will restore our relations. :mrgreen:
But of course it was only peace, friendship and buble gum between georgians and s osetians before bad russians come and made you enemies. .
And you speak about lies? :lol: .
More nonsense that is all i see here. Hi again
As we have many mixed families we have buble gums and even something more so.....
So dont care so mabout osethians. Better isten to your generals: number of dead in conflict is now lowered???? So wats happened. At firs in was 2000-3000 and now 120? Were are another victims?
I have 1 question? I have such impresion that our Georgian victims are counted as osethians! Of course DNA will be performed after this nuightmare stoped. So Russians goal is - to have more dead than Gorgians have?!
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"You can't convince anybody in the image you were developing since 19th century "Savor", "Peacekeeper" . You, after killing so many children and young men in Chechnia, In Beslan, In NordOst," bla bla bla these are just words we have a different point of view, anyway we are not speaking now about those countries, try to concentrate.
"can dare to tell onyone that they are making a genocide????" how many people did you kill in Ossetia BTW?
"Your solders killed hundreds of people in my country, in front of other people and they can confirm. Streets of the villages and the cities were full of the dead people (bothe civilians and militarists), Your "Saver" country so far did not allow any party: Red Cross, Church, Human rights watch to enter in those territories to bring dead people." Have you seen it by you own eyes? Or was it just said on your prejudiced mass media? Have you seen dead people next to you? If you have, why are you smiling like a moron then all the time? Is it funny?
" You are a Nation (even u don't deserve to be named as a nation) of killers and murderers." This was really too ridiculous to have read...
"And live in a peace we WILL BE FREE." I am not sure about that... Let's see.
Anyway I think that sucks when usual people are arguing because of their politics.It wasn't you or me who killed somebody. I don't want to quarrel with you anymore. I can only wish good luck and peace to you and other usual citizens. And to condole with the mothers of dead soldiers.
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SiD,
Why, according to you, are the Russians not letting journalists go to South Ossetia? Have they maybe something to hide??
And the woman on tv (Ossetian in Moscow) who thought that Russians have not bombed anybody...
And Medvedyev who promised to retire but lied...
And all people bombed in cities like Gori, who do not seem to interest you Russians?
THESE are only one bunch of reasons, because of which it is VERY HARD to trust on Russian sources.
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Mixed famalies speak about nothing. Serbs and albanians had mixed famalies too, so what?? Did it helped??
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DEAR EKA AMD MARIAM
Please do not waste your time for SID, Yet I have a feeling that he is not a bad guy - but he is either national-patriotically blind or has direct order for propaganda and mislead there are other people on this forum who needs clearence and info. Make your effors more efective
its obvious and pro-russian member of this forum WAS NOT ABLE to give me the answer on the following.
IF Russians are so sure that Osetians need defence why they resist to subtituting russian peackeepres with International???? Because they know that the same day the conflict will be over - because there is no conflict!
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Salomo Wrote:SiD,
Why, according to you, are the Russians not letting journalists go to South Ossetia? Have they maybe something to hide??
And the woman on tv (Ossetian in Moscow) who thought that Russians have not bombed anybody...
And Medvedyev who promised to retire but lied...
And all people bombed in cities like Gori, who do not seem to interest you Russians?
THESE are only one bunch of reasons, because of which it is VERY HARD to trust on Russian sources.
I do not ask anybody to trust only russian sources. Then many sources than better. There are and were a lot of Russian journalists in Tskchinvali but it is weak argument i know.
Do you think our forces will just get out with haste becouse Bush or Rice told us to do so? Our soldiers will pool back but we wont run.
There were military targets near Gori. How many times US weapons missed in Iraq and Serbia?
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AlexanderBB Wrote:DEAR EKA AMD MARIAM
Please do not waste your time for SID, Yet I have a feeling that he is not a bad guy - but he is either national-patriotically blind or has direct order for propaganda and mislead there are other people on this forum who needs clearence and info. Make your effors more efective
its obvious and pro-russian member of this forum WAS NOT ABLE to give me the answer on the following.
IF Russians are so sure that Osetians need defence why they resist to subtituting russian peackeepres with International???? Because they know that the same day the conflict will be over - because there is no conflict! Before current conflict there were also Georgian peacekeepers in the area. Were they incompitent? They could not protect georgian population interests?
About international peacekeepers.Answer was given many times. Remember Kosovo. We have all rights not to intrust them destiny of people of S Osetia and Abkchazia.
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SiD Wrote:Salomo Wrote:SiD,
Why, according to you, are the Russians not letting journalists go to South Ossetia? Have they maybe something to hide??
And the woman on tv (Ossetian in Moscow) who thought that Russians have not bombed anybody...
And Medvedyev who promised to retire but lied...
And all people bombed in cities like Gori, who do not seem to interest you Russians?
THESE are only one bunch of reasons, because of which it is VERY HARD to trust on Russian sources.
I do not ask anybody to trust only russian sources. Then many sources than better. There are and were a lot of Russian journalists in Tskchinvali but it is weak argument i know.
Do you think our forces will just get out with haste becouse Bush or Rice told us to do so? Our soldiers will pool back but we wont run.
There were military targets near Gori. How many times US weapons missed in Iraq and Serbia? Sid
about mixed families - you have no any sens of humor??os I can nor express what I meen?
I suppose you are not really bad gay as alex. says but you are deffinitly so frustrated with everything is giung round that can not answer on my questions.
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Salomo Wrote:There are many things to answer to and to comment from the last 5-10 pages.
First, about Finnish Winter War: Russia indeed simulated the “shoots of Mainila” to have a reason to be provoked to war. Russia admitted the simulation during Gorbachev regime. (But it seems like Putin & Medvedyev do not admit it any more, and want people to think Finland started that war??) But, the comparison between Mainila and Tskhinvali can not be made, because Finns did not shoot on/from Mainila, but Georgians did on Tskhinvali, unfortunately.
On the other hand, I wish courage to Georgians who have been aggressed by a super-power, just like we in the Winter War, undepending on who “started” the war. It is a fact that Russian troops have come deep into “proper Georgian” zone, bombed cities and killed civilians.
What Georgia did wrong, was to shoot on Tskhinvali and to kill civilians there, but it was NOT wrong to move military equipment into South Ossetia, as it is Georgian territory. Same thing with Russia in Chechnya: move tanks there fine, but to fire on civilians and kill 1/3 of Chechens, that is disgusting… and it is much more than the fatalities in Tskhinvali. Of course even 1 fatality is too much, but…
I would like more Georgians to answer whether independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia would be so terrible. Lenus, thanks for your information on Abkhazia… but how about South Ossetia? Aren’t the Ossetians in majority there?
Again, I would like the Pro-Russians to answer:
- Why do you not condemn bombing of civilians in Gori, done by Russian Army? Or other destroying things, like destroying forests, railways etc.?
- You are accusing Saakashvili to be like Hitler… but how about Putin? Hasn’t he already let kill much more Chechens than Saakashvili let kill South Ossetians?
- What is told to you at school about WWII? Did you know that USSR made a pact with Hitler where they divided Eastern Europe between themselves? Did you know what kind of dictatorial regimes they founded in the countries they “liberated” from Nazis? (Why being surprised when neighbour nations do not love you?)
I am so sick about Russian citizens claiming that “Russia has never bombed any civilians, Georgia has”. Yesterday, there was again such an Ossetian woman in Moscow on TV. Frankly: do your information sources not tell you anything about bombings, killings and destructions done by YOUR army???
Dear Solomo,
That is quite a constructive part of the dicussion
I will provide answers on my behalf - As for who started and about killuing civilians in Tskhinvali - this is the strech from BBC report
"Russian prosecutors have announced they are opening criminal cases into the deaths of 133 civilians who they say were killed by Georgian forces.
Initially, however, Russia suggested more than 1,500 people had died in the conflict.
Last week, Georgia filed a lawsuit against Russia at the International Court of Justice, based at The Hague, alleging the country had attempted to ethnically cleanse Georgians from the breakaway regions. "
Source: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7572969.stm">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7572969.stm</a><!-- m -->
133 civilians are dead.. 133 Georgians are dead!!! Osetia is a territory like for example state of Alabama - there are no ALABamians they are AMERICANS! THIS IS A TRADEGY and no discusion can help this.
Though you should and must know some more - During the 7 days before 7th august Separatists satrted to shoot civilians on so called "Georgian Villages" and intensifed the fire during al these days! what Georgia forceds tried to do was to eliminate the terorist forces. NOT PEOPLE LIVING IN SOUTH OSETA _SAME GEORGIANS but the criminals shooting people! One very important issue - are you aware how Military bases are constructed ? tere are precautional conditions there should be distance between bases and rezidential buildings - so in case of war civilian ddo not get hurt! - russians with the separatists constructed their bases just near rezidential buildings - directly next to them! This is the strategy HESBOLA is using! and after that you think that they want to defend people nevermind who!
As for Abkhazia and Osetia - there can be a referendum and if they decide to be independent let them be - but inthe referendum all rezidents should participate - all refugees taht are currently displacesd and live in diffderent parts of Georgia - and thats the MAJORITY more than 70-80%! SO if independence is granted - we should clearly understand to whom!
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SiD Wrote:Before current conflict there were also Georgian peacekeepers in the area. Were they incompitent? They could not protect georgian population interests?
About international peacekeepers.Answer was given many times. Remember Kosovo. We have all rights not to intrust them destiny of people of S Osetia and Abkchazia.
SiD, EKA AND MARIAM,
There is one thing You should already now understand. This conflict does not make any sense
if You can't appropriate that there is more in game than S-Ossetia - Georgia frozen conflict.
Without understanding that - You can argue forever. And partly You are all telling truth.
Conflict was started by Georgians themself - they attacked to Tskhinvali. It is hard for Georgians
to admit it - if they can't understand politic tensions widely. Saakashvili thought it is a shortcut
to NATO.
Russians however have difficulties to admit that their reaction is stronger than needed. And the
reason is simple: they are in Georgia not only to protect S-Ossetians but also to opposite
enlargement of NATO.
When both sides are ready to admit those facts there is indeed very little to argue about
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independent Wrote:SiD Wrote:Before current conflict there were also Georgian peacekeepers in the area. Were they incompitent? They could not protect georgian population interests?
About international peacekeepers.Answer was given many times. Remember Kosovo. We have all rights not to intrust them destiny of people of S Osetia and Abkchazia.
SiD, EKA AND MARIAM,
There is one thing You should already now understand. This conflict does not make any sense
if You can't appropriate that there is more in game than S-Ossetia - Georgia frozen conflict.
Without understanding that - You can argue forever. And partly You are all telling truth.
Conflict was started by Georgians themself - they attacked to Tskhinvali. It is hard for Georgians
to admit it - if they can't understand politic tensions widely. Saakashvili thought it is a shortcut
to NATO.
Russians however have difficulties to admit that their reaction is stronger than needed. And the
reason is simple: they are in Georgia not only to protect S-Ossetians but also to opposite
enlargement of NATO.
When both sides are ready to admit those facts there is indeed very little to argue about independant
are you antiglobalist?
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EKA,
Think about all this stuff - "hidden" interest , power , lies , discussions behind closed
doors etc.etc
And ordinary people are paying the bill - I really don't know...
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Eka please remind me question you want me to answer.
AlexanderBB your forces ENTERED Tzchinvali do you think they expected no resistance? Artilery was used by georgian troops as preparation for attack on city it is FACT, seen by whole Russia in night. I wasnt sleeping when it all hapened and was shoked. Do you count Russian peacekeepers as terrorists? It was agreement about peace talks hours before the attack but even our negotietors were shocked and confused by your attack.(They were on TV too). You were talking about peace right before the attack FACT. So do not talk that your military just responded.
Do you ever heard about war without civilian casulties?
You have interesting view on referendum. Number of displaced "refugies" could not be trully trusted.
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independent Wrote:SiD Wrote:Before current conflict there were also Georgian peacekeepers in the area. Were they incompitent? They could not protect georgian population interests?
About international peacekeepers.Answer was given many times. Remember Kosovo. We have all rights not to intrust them destiny of people of S Osetia and Abkchazia.
SiD, EKA AND MARIAM,
There is one thing You should already now understand. This conflict does not make any sense
if You can't appropriate that there is more in game than S-Ossetia - Georgia frozen conflict.
Without understanding that - You can argue forever. And partly You are all telling truth.
Conflict was started by Georgians themself - they attacked to Tskhinvali. It is hard for Georgians
to admit it - if they can't understand politic tensions widely. Saakashvili thought it is a shortcut
to NATO.
Russians however have difficulties to admit that their reaction is stronger than needed. And the
reason is simple: they are in Georgia not only to protect S-Ossetians but also to opposite
enlargement of NATO.
When both sides are ready to admit those facts there is indeed very little to argue about
Well hard to debate about that. And i have admitted that there are our geopolitical interests involved.
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