Abkhazia in the Georgian-Russian war 2008

[EU1]

Media battle which is also taking place at this forum too, it is in English:

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Hi Eu1 . So what are you doing now? Frigtening Abxazians? They are frigthtened to much with idea to be swallowed by Russia and there "independace" is fiction and as I understand they are very tensed about this.

You are rupor of your govermant propaganda at this moment. There are different weivs about this war. So please let people to know the both sides.

We are more frightened by that <!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://eu-forums.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1806&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=30">viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1806&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=30</a><!-- l -->, the pictures by Gams, he is from Abkhazia, he has already said very what his people think about the situation, you may get back and re-read his messages

[Now about can we take deccisions or no - I can asure you that we can have influance on our govermant and this influance is called ELECTIONS.You heard something about it? its When prople can go and express their opinion about current goverman. So we will do it when we wil have elections. We expressed it when we dispalced Shevardnadze ( he was inspirator of conflict with Abxazia in beginin of 90th).

If its need we can dispalce this govermant but by free elections .But Russia govermant can not order us to do this or another steps which will bring country to chaos..

If you think that you elected Saakashvili you are wrong. The USA chose him for you and even if you want to displace him but he is supported by USA you will be able to do nothing with him. By the way, do you support the actions in S Ossetia by your army? Just tell us, yes or no.

So if Abxazians wil have terorists who will begin to terorize Gali region Georgian villages, if they will kill people by shooting and bombing the answer of govermant be such - it MUST protect it citizens there( As Russian have done in Sida kartli yes? ). Or Russians can protect there citizens and we can not do so?

Did they do so? or it is the next plan for beginning war?

But I am 100% sure that abxazian people is not gilty in 90-th events its there govermant. so when they will realize it everything will be OK.

Good logic, you came to their lands, began to kill them but they are not guilty

About clining teritories from ethnicities living there - its Russians maner of behavior ( Chechnia and whole Caucasia during 19 to 21 centyre) remember Shamil? Do you know who is he?. We are not " clinig " teritories. Its your govermant rules and even expression like" zachistka" - we have not such words in Georgian at all. So you have copiright on such behavior ( begining rom Afganistan ).Sorry copiright for similar actions belongs to mr. Hitler and that Mr. Putin only reapeated the same.

What about Saakashvili, is he an angel?

[EU1]

Present situation in Russian bears a strong resemblance to that in Germany of 30-th years:, aggressive behavior against neighboring states, nationalistic demagogy, fuehrer, aspiration for world supremacy, short-term economic take-off, blitzkrieg and anschluss territory of a neighboring state upon the pretext of protection of alien residents, nation-wide giddiness due to early military successes, a connivance of some European countries, and eventually, a large-scale military adventure…..

We have already heard this point of view from your media and you just repeat it. You are describing Georgia. Follow above links and watch video. Georgia being independent in the beginning of 20 century began wars with neighbors, cleansing them, the same situatian in 90 of 20 centuries. 3 genocides against ossetian people withing 100 years, it increadable!!!!!

[Eka]

EU
I will not answer the quieations.Georgian position is very clearly described here.
I will stop only on some points:
1. US elected not we. It’s very cheap and wrong propaganda of your govermant.I am living in Tbilisi and I can strongly assure you that Saakashvili have huge opposition in Georgia, but he won election in January.belive me . There were observers from EU and many other countries. (By the way in Russia there were official observers from EU or no on last presidential elections? I remember that your government doesn’t let them to observe elections.)
2. Georgian government will protect its citizens. It’s same that your government stated. So have you objections?
3.” By the way, do you support the actions in S Ossetia by your army? Just tell us, yes or no.”
Go to topic 2 and you will receive the answer.
4.” What about Saakashvili, is he an angel?”
No he is not angel. And Putin is angel or no?
5.”Good logic, you came to their lands, began to kill them but they are not guilty” – once again I will repeat it’s our land – Georgians and Abxazian, and we have 250000 refugees from there. 70000 Abxazians are there now but not those 250000. THEY MUST RETURN HOME. You agree or no? If no –tell reason.
6. I can understand GAMS. Russian propaganda is frightening them. Past 4-5 years Georgian propaganda tries to “puti in our minds” that we are friends and neighbors and they achieve good results. New generation of Georgia ( my son ) are very friendly toward Abxazs and are eager to live with them in peace. If Russian military aggression and its “peacekeepers” will try to destroy this balance it will be very bad.

And please facts about " 3 genocide in 100 years". If you will not give the facts you will be layer. Russian can not proof even "this genocide".Watch this:
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[iako]

If you think that you elected Saakashvili you are wrong. The USA chose him for you and even if you want to displace him but he is supported by USA you will be able to do nothing with him. By the way, do you support the actions in S Ossetia by your army? Just tell us, yes or no.

Dear Eu1- i am very sorry that i have to reply on your comment but i am shocked that you are telling this to us. Just have a look at the political situation in your country. Perhaps Saakashvili is the bad president ( i doubt it) but he is the PRESIDENT! and who is Medvedev? Everyone knows that Putin rules Russia and he even doesnot feel uncomfortable and also Rusian people- Do you think you had the Presidental elections? i dont think so. You just gave up and surrender to the situation, you even didnot show any expression of disagreement or complaint and just recall the elections of the President of Georgia. We had an oppositon, Georgians had the alternative! this is the difference between us...
And one more- ex-president, Shevardnadze was supported by Russian, but we displaced him, not because he had no support from Russia (remember where is Abashidze and who asked to change ex-general Dumbadze with our soldiers) but because we, Georgians wanted to change him and did it ! ;-)

[the globe]

EU1 is a deceiver, therefore I am not going to response him.

[the globe]

Abkhazia is a historical province of Georgia. Two aboriginal populations – Abkhazians and Georgians lived there in the course of hundred of years. Please see below the data concerning general censuses of the populations of Abkhazia carried out before annexation of this territory by Russia in 19-th century, as well as afterwards in soviet time.
Census in 1861: Georgians – 50.6%; Abkhazians – 41.2%; Armenians – 1.6%; Russians – 1.8%, Greeks – 1.7%.
Census in 1926: Georgians – 36.3%; Abkhazians – 30%; Armenians – 13.9%; Russians – 6.7%, Greeks – 4.8%.
Census in 1989: Georgians – 45.7%; Abkhazians – 17.8%; Armenians – 14.6%; Russians – 14.2%, Greeks – 4.9%.
In 1993 Russian occupants expatriate from Abkhazia region of Georgia about 250 000 (more then 45 % of total population of Abkhazia) Georgian civilians. Thousands of them were brutally tortured to death. After this ethnic cleansing, the Russian government gave the Abkhaz separatists political, economic, as well as military supports. Abkhaz separatists misappropriate the property of Georgia refugees. Afterwards Russia carried out a referendum for independence of Abkhazia. Recently Russian occupants entered the Kodori gorge (a region of Abkhazia until recently controlled by Georgian government), as well as South Ossetia to commit a new act of ethnic cleansing. Houses of Georgian civilians have been burned.

[lashachochua]

Abkhazia is a historical province of Georgia. Two aboriginal populations – Abkhazians and Georgians lived there in the course of hundred of years. Please see below the data concerning general censuses of the populations of Abkhazia carried out before annexation of this territory by Russia in 19-th century, as well as afterwards in soviet time.
Census in 1861: Georgians – 50.6%; Abkhazians – 41.2%; Armenians – 1.6%; Russians – 1.8%, Greeks – 1.7%.
Census in 1926: Georgians – 36.3%; Abkhazians – 30%; Armenians – 13.9%; Russians – 6.7%, Greeks – 4.8%.
Census in 1989: Georgians – 45.7%; Abkhazians – 17.8%; Armenians – 14.6%; Russians – 14.2%, Greeks – 4.9%.
In 1993 Russian occupants expatriate from Abkhazia region of Georgia about 250 000 (more then 45 % of total population of Abkhazia) Georgian civilians. Thousands of them were brutally tortured to death. After this ethnic cleansing, the Russian government gave the Abkhaz separatists political, economic, as well as military supports. Abkhaz separatists misappropriate the property of Georgia refugees. Afterwards Russia carried out a referendum for independence of Abkhazia. Recently Russian occupants entered the Kodori gorge (a region of Abkhazia until recently controlled by Georgian government), as well as South Ossetia to commit a new act of ethnic cleansing. Houses of Georgian civilians have been burned.

The globe, I have provided the figures about population composition in Abkhazia with sources too. I have also provided some citations from Russians started from XV century...I think if here people have at least little reasoning they have to accept the idea that Abkhazia and S. Ossetia are historical lands of Georgia.

[lashachochua]

I have read what was writtenabout this topic. Dear Georgians, it is great that you think friendly about abkhazia but that's not you who make decisions. For example, if your president wants to clean Abkhazia from Abkhazs you will not be able to stop it, maybe there will be meetings with a few persons and that's all.

I am sorry EU1, but this is typical Russian position. Why you think that we Georgians can not effect government decesion...Just you have to remember last year, protests against Georgian Government and the results of these protests... Yes EU1, it is correct that we are far away from real democracy, but also we are far away from russian level of Democracy...

Besides georgians mostly support solutions of their president. I have not read a message asking to forgive for the situation that was in S Ossetia. Instead of it you try to convince that your soldier came there with flowers and there were not casualties among civilians. Were you against when your soldier killed civilians bombing towns at night? NO.

It is terrible when there are casualties among civilians...We Georgians know what does it mean when your friend, your neighbour or your relative is killed.........The actions of Georgian soldiers were reasonable reply on separatists actions before the War actually started.....What you suggest? Georgian Government had to watch how Ossetian separatist were shooting on Gorgian villages.....I do not think that there are a lot of people who likes to see killed civilians....We all are against it........But sometimes, when Large country is messing life, it is getting impossible to avoid conflict....Yes, I do think that all this conflict was provoked by Russia.......So about civilian casualties, you have to blame Russian backed separatists, who actually started the war.....I am really sorry about Ossetian civilian casualties.......But are you sorry about Gorgian civilian casualties?...or you think Blood for Blood?....

You don't think about people living in Abkhazia and S Ossetia, you need only these lands and don't care about local people leaving there otherwise we would see another methods in S Ossetia and it is likely in Abkazia if Ossetia would have been conquered. Your actions show better what you want then your words.

Once more you words look like they are conventional truth...You do not know what Georgians think about Abkhazians and Ossetians....You have just seen several comments of Georgians about their attitude to Abkhazians and Ossetians.......EU1 just stop provocating and let us to communicate with Abkhazians and Ossetians, Do not behave like Russian Government, just let us to have conversation......

[EU1]

Il est impossible de changer votre avis, tant pis pour vous mais quand même j'espére que les Ossètes et les Abkhazes seront indépendants de votre Etat nationaliste. Bonne chance, mes amis et mes salutations aux géorgiens

[lashachochua]

Would you mind to post your comments in English?

[EU1]

You should study French, one day it will become international language. My opinion is that you have said nothing new, you repeat it in every topic, kinda Russia is guilty in everything, your opinion is the only right and Ossetia and Abkhazia will be yours by any means even if you will have to murder all inhabitants.As I understand you support actions of your president in S Ossetia SO YOU ARE ACCESSORIES TO THE CRIMES COMMITTED THERE. Abhazia must be independent from Russian and Georgian invaders, it deserves it

[Salomo]

Personally I do not understand the logic why Russia promotes Abkhazian and South Ossetian independency, but failed to give the same independence to Chechnya, to Ingushetia, to Dagestan… or to promote the independence of Kosovo. Of all these, Abkhazia and South Ossetia is the region with least people in the “local ethnicity”, Abkhazia has less than 50 % before Georgians were chased away. Kosovo has more than 80 % ethnic Albanians who supported independence.

But independence of new countries is ok for me. Let’s just give it to all, after referendums though, with all legal residents voting, away-chased people included.

C'est la Russie qui est le grand probléme ici.

[EU1]

Personally I do not understand the logic why Russia promotes Abkhazian and South Ossetian independency, but failed to give the same independence to Chechnya, to Ingushetia, to Dagestan… or to promote the independence of Kosovo. Of all these, Abkhazia and South Ossetia is the region with least people in the “local ethnicity”, Abkhazia has less than 50 % before Georgians were chased away. Kosovo has more than 80 % ethnic Albanians who supported independence.

But independence of new countries is ok for me. Let’s just give it to all, after referendums though, with all legal residents voting, away-chased people included.

C'est la Russie qui est le grand probléme ici.

I don't understand too why Kosovo was recognised, but as there is a precident Abkhazia and South Ossetia can also be independent, thank you G. Bush. As for Chechnya, Ingushetia and Dagestan, maybe georgians want them to become independent to revenge Russia but one should ask people living there first.

T'as des problèmes avec la Russie? Qu'est-ce qu'il y a?

[Salomo]

Le problème est que la Russie est un état puissant qui ne pense qu’ à élargir son cercle d’influence en supportant des états pas trop démocratiques, en plus. Elle a toujours une arrière-pensée.

The problem is that Russia is a (regional) super-power which thinks only about enlarging its influence zone and promotes not too democratic governments.

While USA at least tries to build a “belt of democratic countries” here and there. It has not always done it in the past, often it has been the contrary and it is sad, but now it tries to build such a belt around Russia (Baltic States, Ukraine…) and I can only support this. Georgia is not a very democratic country (yet), even Georgians here admit it, but what would it be in the Russian influence sphere?? And would you think Russia would have attacked Georgia and supported South Ossetia or Abkhazia if Georgia were a Russian-minded authoritarian country like Belarus or Kazakhstan? I do NOT think that!!

And everybody knows why Chechens now have to vote for Russian power in referendums. There is practically nobody left to vote against Russia in referendums!! All fighters have been killed or escaped in the mountains. Isn’t it 1/3 of Chechens who have been killed during the wars? Now Russia unfortunately dominates the whole country, so do you think somebody, even wishing independence, would have the courage to vote against Russia?? Come on, people want to live now, not die or be tortured! But if there would be no Russian forces but international peace-keeping forces… or if the referendum was made 10 years ago, then…?

Let’s hope at least Abkhazia will become a country as democratic as possible, without too much Russian-backed corrupted mafiosos at power… Tourism and cement industry can be profitable… For South Ossetia, it seems less bright, as it seems to be a smuggler’s nest…

Russia could try to enlarge its influence in Latin America, why not, this could bring balance… but leave your small neighbour countries in peace!!

[SiD]

Are you all serius? Interesting what would China (for example) think anout independence for everything that moves? Cmon get back to reality. EU and US have opened dangerous door, one may call it pandoran box. This door means that country can support independance of someone if it is in thier interests and use force to back people who wants independance. Baypassing UN and international law. Now only rule is right of strength. Russia used this new rules to help to S Osetian and Abkchaz people. But it all work both ways cant you see? EU and US cant turn back and announce Kosovo part of Serbia, so cant Russia do same with newly recognized states. Only solution is to acknowledge territoryal integrity of every country as MAIN thing. I think everyone can see that everyone is trying to do that. US and EU must acknowledge thier mistake in Kosovo and try to make something with damage it done. Georgians paid price for thier mistake and if they had any councius they would admit it. Besides they are best to stop provoking Russia with growth of NATO.
If it was something DONE about peace not just SAID our world could be A LOT more safe.

[lashachochua]

You should study French, one day it will become international language.

I will think about it....

My opinion is that you have said nothing new, you repeat it in every topic, kinda Russia is guilty in everything,

I do agree that my opinion that Russia is guilty is not new...Is it strange?...Russia in the early period as Soviet Union and now as Russia is trying to do his best to show his strength only provoking small countries...Here I am not alone and I think that many people in this world will agree that russia is provokator...

your opinion is the only right and Ossetia and Abkhazia will be yours by any means even if you will have to murder all inhabitants

Did I say something like that?...This is what I call typical Russian position....What I said was that just let us to have convesration....Just let not to support Abkhazian and Ossetian Separatists....

As I understand you support actions of your president in S Ossetia SO YOU ARE ACCESSORIES TO THE CRIMES COMMITTED THERE. Abhazia must be independent from Russian and Georgian invaders, it deserves it

Yes I support Georgian actions against Ossetian Separatists...But I DENOUNCE every case of civial casualty, was it carried by GEORGIANS, RUSSIANS or SOUTH OSSETIAN SEPARATISTS...How can a country be called invador on its own territory, have you ever heard about 1000 facts of ethnic cleasning of Georgians in Abkhazia...

Finally, EU1 and everyone here should understand that Georgia is not going to loose Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Rational People should understand that the only reasonable solution to this problem is the way Georgia offered - large autonomy, otherwise there will not be peace in this part of the world...This is a bitter reality. Those who will not understand this fact and oppose it, will natuarally or artificially contribute to the unrest in this region..........

[lashachochua]

I don't understand too why Kosovo was recognised,

Probably you can not understand this fact because you do not have enough information about this problem!

but as there is a precident Abkhazia and South Ossetia can also be independent, thank you G. Bush. As for Chechnya, Ingushetia and Dagestan, maybe georgians want them to become independent to revenge Russia but one should ask people living there first.

This is also typical Russian position...You should ask people about their independence when those who oppose it is killed or driven out by force from such territories.....Have you ever heard how Russia asked about their independence in Chechnya?....

T'as des problèmes avec la Russie? Qu'est-ce qu'il y a?

Still do not understand...Have french became the global language already? I missed my time I guess...

[lashachochua]

Let’s hope at least Abkhazia will become a country as democratic as possible, without too much Russian-backed corrupted mafiosos at power… Tourism and cement industry can be profitable… For South Ossetia, it seems less bright, as it seems to be a smuggler’s nest…

Strange argument! What about historical truth, what about your argument about voting?...Hope you are kidding, otherwise it really looks very unlogical........

[GAMS]

Map of Georgia after 10 years

[GAMS]

Nikaraguya acknowledges Abhazia and Sonth Ossetia
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[GAMS]

Georgian fascism
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[GAMS]

Fascist Saakashvili is sick!
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[lashachochua]

GAMS, I have impression that you are forbiden to comment. Are you afraid of something? Is it enough to provide only Russian sources, or you totally agree with them? Strange!

[lashachochua]

Nikaraguya acknowledges Abhazia and Sonth Ossetia
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GAMS, are you happy that Nikaragua recogmized the independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia? What about the whole democratic world which has not recognized it? Or you do not care about democratic world?

[GAMS]

Russia rescued us from a genocide.We estimate it.