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Quote:You Russians can go to the direction you choose and do what ever you like. Its your peoblem.But if you think that we - Georgians will folow you- you are very, very mistaken. We have over own way, vision. And it does not matter Russia likes it or no. We choose western democraty - is it bad or good - its our choice, not yours. You must uderstand that WE DONT WANT TO BE IN ONE BOAT WITH YOU. ADN WE NEVER WERE WITH YOU IN ONE BOAT. YOU CAN GO AND DO WHAT YOU THINK IS GOOD FOR YOU, BUt YOU MUST PUT IN YOUR HADS THAT WE ARE NOT RUSSIA - and you must try to change the vector of your geopolitical intrests and intensions. Its very difficult, but you must do it one day. Your neibghors dont want to be like you, they are and will be very different. You must understand this.We dont want to live with people who are destroing our cultural heritage and firing woods and churches.
Unfortunatly in Georgia everyone hates Russia and Russians.Not only now but it was during all years of your invasion in this country. All miths about our "hospitality " were only miths . Everything changed in this 4-5 years. I suppose you are not very upseted with this. So at last we can cut any tights with each other and try to live separatly. After many ears maybe another generations can change somethig. ( When KGB govermant will go and another will come). So you can live in the world your presidents invented ( with Orhtega and Chaves) for you and we will live in the world which feels , acts and thinks differently. It was not only war, it was ideologicall starglle.
Okey, you said: " We choose western democraty - is it bad or good - its our choice, not yours" That is fine.But
Georgia inherently cannot go western democracy way. Because you dont have in you mind respect for morality and law. How you can go western way, if two of your leaders (gamsahurdia and shevarnadse) was guided by criminal lords? Jaba Ioseliany was criminal leader. But you, guys, gave to him position of military minister. What kind of respect for morality you have?
Russia understand, that you want to go democratic way. But we dont like, if you go criminal democratic way. Russia will allways oppose to this, including military way.
Georgians need autoritarian government - it is your nature - you respect power much more, then morality. Same as russians.But you adamantly stick to western way, wich will bring only instability to Georgia and to border countrys
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Okey, you said: " We choose western democraty - is it bad or good - its our choice, not yours" That is fine.But
Georgia inherently cannot go western democracy way. Because you dont have in you mind respect for morality and law. How you can go western way, if two of your leaders (gamsahurdia and shevarnadse) was guided by criminal lords? Jaba Ioseliany was criminal leader. But you, guys, gave to him position of military minister. What kind of respect for morality you have?
Russia understand, that you want to go democratic way. But we dont like, if you go criminal democratic way. Russia will allways oppose to this, including military way.
Georgians need autoritarian government - it is your nature - you respect power much more, then morality. Same as russians.But you adamantly stick to western way, wich will bring only instability to Georgia and to border countrys[/quote]
Why are you so sure about the chracteristic of Georgians? Have you been travelling there for seven years like you`ve done in USA?  I agree with you that Georgia has encountered a lot of difficulties after the collapse of Soviet Union. There has been turmoil and even there were criminals in power. But all this was caused by years of Russian rule and subsequent efforts to provoke difficulties in newly independent states. Russian Empire and then Soviet Empire has left a substantial negative trace in societies of many nations under thair rule. I agree with you that russians respect power, not morality, that is absolutely evident. But don`t be so sure that all the countries which one time have had the misfortune to be part of corrupt soviet system will adopt this national peculiarity of Russians. It is very hard for you to admitt that some nations have the ability of self reflecion, development and transformation, that they don`t want to act like russians do. When you talk about democracy and post soviet countries, please have in mind Baltic States and Central European countries. They managed to transform in reall democracies. The fact that they have came through this difficult path of transformation more faster and more easily, was preconditoned by less years under soviet rule and proximity to western markets. Such countries as Ukraine and Georgia need more efforts and time to do this. And finally, once again I ask you not to talk about the desires and aspirations of other nations. Think about your aspirations. Maybe it sounds a bit pathetic, but democracy is really a value for Georgia.
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Quote:Why are you so sure about the chracteristic of Georgians? Have you been travelling there for seven years like you`ve done in USA? I agree with you that Georgia has encountered a lot of difficulties after the collapse of Soviet Union. There has been turmoil and even there were criminals in power. But all this was caused by years of Russian rule and subsequent efforts to provoke difficulties in newly independent states. Russian Empire and then Soviet Empire has left a substantial negative trace in societies of many nations under thair rule. I agree with you that russians respect power, not morality, that is absolutely evident. But don`t be so sure that all the countries which one time have had the misfortune to be part of corrupt soviet system will adopt this national peculiarity of Russians. It is very hard for you to admitt that some nations have the ability of self reflecion, development and transformation, that they don`t want to act like russians do. When you talk about democracy and post soviet countries, please have in mind Baltic States and Central European countries. They managed to transform in reall democracies. The fact that they have came through this difficult path of transformation more faster and more easily, was preconditoned by less years under soviet rule and proximity to western markets. Such countries as Ukraine and Georgia need more efforts and time to do this. And finally, once again I ask you not to talk about the desires and aspirations of other nations. Think about your aspirations. Maybe it sounds a bit pathetic, but democracy is really a value for Georgia.
I tell you once more - high level of morality is PRECONDITION for building democracy by western way.I meet many georgiang during my life and I can tell directly - you guys similar to russians.When I was in Red Army - it was very evidently.Georgians was allways in position of controlling materials - food,close etc. And they was stealing this things for money.This was the rule for Red Army.
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I tell you once more - high level of morality is PRECONDITION for building democracy by western way.I meet many georgiang during my life and I can tell directly - you guys similar to russians.When I was in Red Army - it was very evidently.Georgians was allways in position of controlling materials - food,close etc. And they was stealing this things for money.This was the rule for Red Army.[/quote]
Truly so. This was the rule for red army and red empire. So we did not want to be the part of this immoral red empire any more, is it so difficult to understand and to accept? Red empire really was doing its best to build immoral society and to spread its immoprality in all countries under its control. You don`t have any right to speak on the morality of the whole nation, relying on your personal unpleasant experience in Red Army. As regards preconditions for democracy, the main precondition is surely the aspiration of a nation to build this democracy. And Georgia really has this aspiration.
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One of the Reasons why Soviet Union fall apart was the desire of its leaders to create new nationality called "Soviet". They treated everybody as if it was one whole nation with similar beliefs and values. Naturally they failed. I am very sorry to see that Russia believes the same. How can Georgians or anybody else be like Russians? I am not saying that they are better or worse, they are just different. The fact that they were under Russian rule for so long does not mean that their core values and traditions have changed, maybe they adopted some behaviors and ways of life but it does not really mean that they became like you. What they are trying so desperately is to find out who they really are and what they want, and unless you let them make choice, no matter good or bad, the conflict between those two countries will continue. You can not really change anybody, all you can do is change the way you behave toward others. (And this is true for everybody, including Georgians)
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marisha Wrote:Truly so. This was the rule for red army and red empire. So we did not want to be the part of this immoral red empire any more, is it so difficult to understand and to accept? Red empire really was doing its best to build immoral society and to spread its immoprality in all countries under its control. You don`t have any right to speak on the morality of the whole nation, relying on your personal unpleasant experience in Red Army. As regards preconditions for democracy, the main precondition is surely the aspiration of a nation to build this democracy. And Georgia really has this aspiration.
:haha look ones morality doesnt depends on form of government. It is PRECONDITION he said not something gained by obtaining this lable from US.
And please tell me how you understand democracy? What is it for you?
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mika Wrote:One of the Reasons why Soviet Union fall apart was the desire of its leaders to create new nationality called "Soviet". They treated everybody as if it was one whole nation with similar beliefs and values. Naturally they failed. I am very sorry to see that Russia believes the same. How can Georgians or anybody else be like Russians? I am not saying that they are better or worse, they are just different. The fact that they were under Russian rule for so long does not mean that their core values and traditions have changed, maybe they adopted some behaviors and ways of life but it does not really mean that they became like you. What they are trying so desperately is to find out who they really are and what they want, and unless you let them make choice, no matter good or bad, the conflict between those two countries will continue. You can not really change anybody, all you can do is change the way you behave toward others. (And this is true for everybody, including Georgians)
No one is forbiding georgians build democratic society. It is thier choice. I dont think that someone in Russia is concerned it is or it is not democracy in Georgia.
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SiD Wrote:No one is forbiding georgians build democratic society. It is thier choice. I dont think that someone in Russia is concerned it is or it is not democracy in Georgia.
But you do care what kind of government they have, don't you?
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SiD Wrote:marisha Wrote:Truly so. This was the rule for red army and red empire. So we did not want to be the part of this immoral red empire any more, is it so difficult to understand and to accept? Red empire really was doing its best to build immoral society and to spread its immoprality in all countries under its control. You don`t have any right to speak on the morality of the whole nation, relying on your personal unpleasant experience in Red Army. As regards preconditions for democracy, the main precondition is surely the aspiration of a nation to build this democracy. And Georgia really has this aspiration.
:haha look ones morality doesnt depends on form of government. It is PRECONDITION he said not something gained by obtaining this lable from US.
And please tell me how you understand democracy? What is it for you?
I don`t understand what are you laughing on? I agree with you that morality does not depend on form of government. I mean morality of ordinary people, but the form of government can be immoral. If you need definition for democracy, please find it in text books. There are a lot of them on this topic. Every child knows that basic principles of democracy is rule of law, freedm of expression, freedom of assambly, free market economy, free election. For me personally, democracy is form of governance where exists conditions for personal liberty and self expression. For the time being democracy is the only form of governance, where a personality is most protected and has the conditions to realize its abilities. If you invent something better, please inform. Maybe you are working on concept of "sovereign democracy" Russian officials say that they are building this newly invented form of democracy. So please inform me what it is and maybe we will decide to convert to this russian form of democracy, where there exists no free mass-media, no rule of law(only bassmanny sud), where journalists are being killed, where president is chosen by his predeseccesor and not by nation on free elections, where everybody is so happy with the current situation that not a single massive demonstration is held. I know for sure that this is not a democracy. I know as well that Georgia not fully democratic country so far, but at least people know whta is democracy, want to leave in democracy and are building this democracy.
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marisha Wrote:I don`t understand what are you laughing on? I agree with you that morality does not depend on form of government. I mean morality of ordinary people, but the form of government can be immoral. If you need definition for democracy, please find it in text books. There are a lot of them on this topic. Every child knows that basic principles of democracy is rule of law, freedm of expression, freedom of assambly, free market economy, free election. For me personally, democracy is form of governance where exists conditions for personal liberty and self expression. For the time being democracy is the only form of governance, where a personality is most protected and has the conditions to realize its abilities. If you invent something better, please inform. Maybe you are working on concept of "sovereign democracy" Russian officials say that they are building this newly invented form of democracy. So please inform me what it is and maybe we will decide to convert to this russian form of democracy, where there exists no free mass-media, no rule of law(only bassmanny sud), where journalists are being killed, where president is chosen by his predeseccesor and not by nation on free elections, where everybody is so happy with the current situation that not a single massive demonstration is held. I know for sure that this is not a democracy. I know as well that Georgia not fully democratic country so far, but at least people know whta is democracy, want to leave in democracy and are building this democracy.
And morality of common people is precondition for democracy how russian999 said. I dont know if it is realy so but i think it wont hurt. What you say is that you just want to build democracy. And what have you done to build it? You numbered values of democracy but how many of them were violated by your current leadership? You have pointed freedoms and benifits of democracy but you havent named responsabilities. Becouse democracy must be constantly supported by people. So called civil society. All freedoms must be protected not only by government but sometimes from government.
Sovereign democracy means that we do not blindly take all from western domocracies, but are building democracy how we can, without collecting just worst problems of west. And of course it means that our foreign and internal policy is in our interests not in interests of other countries. Lable from US or from EU is no value to us becouse we are sovereign country.
mika Wrote:But you do care what kind of government they have, don't you?
No i wasnt. Now you have criminals and liers in power. When they gone i wont care what your government is, is it democracy, or monarchy or wanever you choose. As long as they do not endanger Russian interests it is not important to me.
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SiD Wrote:mika Wrote:But you do care what kind of government they have, don't you?
No i wasnt. Now you have criminals and liers in power. When they gone i wont care what your government is, is it democracy, or monarchy or wanever you choose. As long as they do not endanger Russian interests it is not important to me.
I have honestly nothing against being Georgian but I think that My Government is enough for me, I do not want any more, thank you. I asked this question because many (not personally you SiD) do bring up this topic. I personally believe that: a) each nation deserves Government it has. b) We all have common interest which is to live in peace and prosperity (don't you think?) c) The bigger is the country the bigger should be its responsibility. You can force any country to do what you want because you can destroy it if you decide to, but it would be much cooler to show them the advantages of being with you not the disadvantages of being with others. d) small country can be pain in -----. That's all
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[.[/quote]
Quote:And morality of common people is precondition for democracy how russian999 said. I dont know if it is realy so but i think it wont hurt.
I can not understand what you, or to be more accurate, russian999, means when talking on morality as a precondition for democracy. Your assumption is that Georgia, as well as russia (see russian999) should not build democracy as they are immoral. A bit rediculous assumption. First of all I do not think that russians are immoral(their government is). On the other hand, how one can talk about the morality of the whole nation? I understand that this is not the question to you, but to russian 999, as the concept of immorality of Georgian people as a factor hindering democratic development belongs to him.
Quote:What you say is that you just want to build democracy. And what have you done to build it? You numbered values of democracy but how many of them were violated by your current leadership? You have pointed freedoms and benifits of democracy but you havent named responsabilities. Becouse democracy must be constantly supported by people. So called civil society. All freedoms must be protected not only by government but sometimes from government.
Thank you very much about lecture on democracy. I know what it is, I know what responsibilities are in democracy. This responsibilities derive primarily from the freedoms of democracy. When we talk about right to free elections, we should understand that when citizens in a democracy vote, for example, they are exercising their right and responsibility to determine who shall rule in their name. An individuals rights are also his responsibility to protect and enhance those rights for himself and for others. In democracy citizens know that they must bear the responsibility for their society if they are to benefit from its protection of their rights. As regards, building of democracy in Georgia, we have quite sucseeded on this path. Civil society is really very strong in Georgia by the way. NGOs function really very effectively and actively. Press is absolutely pro-oposition. As regards TV channels, there are some private TV channels which are very loyal to government, but are some which are opposing current givernment very actively. Public broadcaster is very balanced. We have had free elections the outcome of which was not preconditioned in advance unlike russia. There have been implemented effective reforms in judiciary system, penitenciary system. Georgian society is very critical. It will and surely is constantly protecting its rights and will never allow to any government to make them silent. You should know Georgians better to understand that.
Quote:Sovereign democracy means that we do not blindly take all from western domocracies, but are building democracy how we can, without collecting just worst problems of west. And of course it means that our foreign and internal policy is in our interests not in interests of other countries. Lable from US or from EU is no value to us becouse we are sovereign country.
I need more specifications about sovereign democracy. I think you are inventing something really genious. Please educate me on this issue. I think Dugin and Zirinovsky are able to invent something really sovereign and brilliant. Building democracy how you can-does that mean that you can kill journalists and appoint presidents? Is it democracy? But it is your right to do so. We have our path, we have chosen our government and if we decide that our government does not fulfil its mandate, we will elect another. So it is the right of Georgian people to elect its government and not of Russia.
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mika Wrote: I have honestly nothing against being Georgian but I think that My Government is enough for me, I do not want any more, thank you. I asked this question because many (not personally you SiD) do bring up this topic. I personally believe that: a) each nation deserves Government it has. b) We all have common interest which is to live in peace and prosperity (don't you think?) c) The bigger is the country the bigger should be its responsibility. You can force any country to do what you want because you can destroy it if you decide to, but it would be much cooler to show them the advantages of being with you not the disadvantages of being with others. d) small country can be pain in -----. That's all
Quote: I have honestly nothing against being Georgian
sorry my mistake.
Quote:a) each nation deserves Government it has.
I agree.
Quote:b) We all have common interest which is to live in peace and prosperity (don't you think?)
Yes. That is many wars are about if not all.
Quote:c) The bigger is the country the bigger should be its responsibility. You can force any country to do what you want because you can destroy it if you decide to, but it would be much cooler to show them the advantages of being with you not the disadvantages of being with others.
Far not always big country can force little country to do something. And to destroy country i think it is impossible in modern world. But they should take into consideration thier nighbors interests, especialy if they want to join some organiztion that is viewed as treat by other countrie, thier nighbor.
Quote:d) small country can be pain in -----.
I think it is not matter of size but matter of its foreign policy.
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Quote:I need more specifications about sovereign democracy. I think you are inventing something really genious. Please educate me on this issue. I think Dugin and Zirinovsky are able to invent something really sovereign and brilliant. Building democracy how you can-does that mean that you can kill journalists and appoint presidents? Is it democracy? But it is your right to do so. We have our path, we have chosen our government and if we decide that our government does not fulfil its mandate, we will elect another. So it is the right of Georgian people to elect its government and not of Russia.[/
All right.... Dear georgians, forgive me for beeng rude, but you know about real democracy nothing! And by repetition of your desire to "build democracy" you reminding me some idealistic person, who is trying to reach some good purpose, but he does not know this purpose itself.
I will tell you frankly - you just dont now were you heading at!
So, in USA I was very much surprised, that owners of dogs was picking up dogs shit from the grass. Also what really hits me - that people was throwing small garbage (papers,icecreame packege, cigarets) into street garbagecan! Also americans never run trough street, if streetlite is red! Also in MacDonalds customers after eating food was throwing what is left in garbagecan by themself and by themself was cleening table by napkins! I was thinking, that people was affreid of the law, but later on I realise, that people in America have great respect to moral values by themself, but not because they scare of police.
But, in black areas things was going diffrently. In black areas was garbage and dogs shit everywere! It looks like Russia! Dirty, dangerous and filthy.
So, I understud,that it does not matter what kind of form of government you have, but what is matter is how people respect morality.
Regarding Georgia I think, that this country even by proclaiming beeng democratic country still is immoral country. And situation in Georgia now is same, as in black areas of USA.
That is why Russia was and will watch you, guys, because we dont want instability on our borders.
It is same, as in Los Angeles - white people gave to blacks downtown and police watching out for blacks, in order they will be unable to hurt any white people outside of black area. But police do not invaded deep inside of black area. That is why inside of black area is total control of criminals.
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russian999 Wrote:But, in black areas things was going diffrently. In black areas was garbage and dogs shit everywere! It looks like Russia! Dirty, dangerous and filthy.
So, I understud,that it does not matter what kind of form of government you have, but what is matter is how people respect morality.
Regarding Georgia I think, that this country even by proclaiming beeng democratic country still is immoral country. And situation in Georgia now is same, as in black areas of USA.
That is why Russia was and will watch you, guys, because we dont want instability on our borders.
It is same, as in Los Angeles - white people gave to blacks downtown and police watching out for blacks, in order they will be unable to hurt any white people outside of black area. But police do not invaded deep inside of black area. That is why inside of black area is total control of criminals. Sorry Russian999 but according what you say Russia looks like black areas of US cities, Not very good thing to say about your country, but I can not argue with you , you live there and you probably know better, but what strikes me is that you can not possibly know what is going on in Georgia, and even if you do, I do not understand why people form one "Black area" should control people from other black area? according to your logic, both of you should be controlled by "white people".
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There is topic about democracy in this forum by the way. I think matters of domocracy should better be discussed ther.
becouse domocracy has nothing to do with georgia - S Osetia war.
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Quote:Sorry Russian999 but according what you say Russia looks like black areas of US cities, Not very good thing to say about your country, but I can not argue with you , you live there and you probably know better, but what strikes me is that you can not possibly know what is going on in Georgia, and even if you do, I do not understand why people form one "Black area" should control people from other black area? according to your logic, both of you should be controlled by "white people".
Actually, you are right! I cannot compare Russia with "White people". Lets say this way. In Los Angeles there are areas under black criminal control and under latinos criminal control. They have diffrent customs, but all of them respect only power, not morality.And all of them very dirty and filthy. So, blacks and latinos allways in fight. It is same, as Russia and Georgia.
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russian999 Wrote:Actually, you are right! I cannot compare Russia with "White people". Lets say this way. In Los Angeles there are areas under black criminal control and under latinos criminal control. They have diffrent customs, but all of them respect only power, not morality.And all of them very dirty and filthy. So, blacks and latinos allways in fight. It is same, as Russia and Georgia.
And are you gays happy about it?
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mika Wrote:One of the Reasons why Soviet Union fall apart was the desire of its leaders to create new nationality called "Soviet". They treated everybody as if it was one whole nation with similar beliefs and values. Naturally they failed. I am very sorry to see that Russia believes the same. How can Georgians or anybody else be like Russians? I am not saying that they are better or worse, they are just different. The fact that they were under Russian rule for so long does not mean that their core values and traditions have changed, maybe they adopted some behaviors and ways of life but it does not really mean that they became like you. What they are trying so desperately is to find out who they really are and what they want, and unless you let them make choice, no matter good or bad, the conflict between those two countries will continue. You can not really change anybody, all you can do is change the way you behave toward others. (And this is true for everybody, including Georgians) I agree, and Ossetians and Georgians are different. :mrgreen:
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mika Wrote:SiD Wrote:No one is forbiding georgians build democratic society. It is thier choice. I dont think that someone in Russia is concerned it is or it is not democracy in Georgia.
But you do care what kind of government they have, don't you? Not really, since no attempt to overthrow Saakashvili was made after his army was pushed back. It is the US which acts strongly to change the goverments of countries which are not pro-American. (please do try to reply with an example from the USSR, since it is different from Russia)
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freevoice Wrote:mika Wrote:SiD Wrote:No one is forbiding georgians build democratic society. It is thier choice. I dont think that someone in Russia is concerned it is or it is not democracy in Georgia.
But you do care what kind of government they have, don't you? Not really, since no attempt to overthrow Saakashvili was made after his army was pushed back. It is the US which acts strongly to change the goverments of countries which are not pro-American. (please do try to reply with an example from the USSR, since it is different from Russia)
Freevoice, I don't quite understood what you meant by this reply can you explain it to me? than I will be able to answer it .OK? actually my questions come from what I read on this forum, and I ask them because I want to understand, I feel like you sometimes you gays become a bit aggressive if somebody asks something which is not in line with your way of thinking. Don't be so defensive, If I had clear vision of what is going on I would write statements not questions. Just help me out to understand.
As for Georgians and Ossetians, of course they are different too, I do not argue about it either. I answered to Russian999 who claimed that Georgians and Russians were alike.
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This is a very old topic. SO and A are independent sates. So the deal is done. The history is writeing by the winner, and Russia with South Ossetia are the winners!
The best political regime for the nation is a regime which was saved this nation like an entire one. (M. Montein)
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On 14 October The Artists' Union of Latvia will open their annual autumn exhibition which is titled this year „Autumn 080808, I am a Georgian!”
The date of 08.08.08. will be known in the history not only as the opening date of Olympic Games in Beijing but also as the date when Russia’s army crossed its neighbouring Georgia’s border. The exhibition theme “I am a Georgian” is a challenge for the artist – nowadays when the gap between reality and arts becomes a commonplace the artist is called for manifesting oneself as the medium who perceives outside processes, becomes a sensor and, by transforming one’s perceptions into artistic work, offers a fairly new opportunity for watching the current processes. The latest events urge artists not to stay offside but get involved in the discourse on geopolitical and social issues.
Autumn 080808, I am a Georgian will take place from 14 October till 8 November.
<!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.msav.lv">http://www.msav.lv</a><!-- w -->
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How about the new movement something like " I am NOT Georgian"?
The best political regime for the nation is a regime which was saved this nation like an entire one. (M. Montein)
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