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Russia: The Awakening
#1
Recently, today, a Russian official (general of an army) said that Poland will face problems if it continues its partnership regarding the USA’s anti-missile program.

I’m shocked. Was this a threat of another invasion?
Can somebody reestablish peace and quiet?
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#2
Do not worry. Rockets in Poland threaten Russia, but nobody is going to attack Poland. The USA instal rockets at our borders, what we can make in this situation?
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#3
Hakan G Wrote:Recently, today, a Russian official (general of an army) said that Poland will face problems if it continues its partnership regarding the USA’s anti-missile program.

I’m shocked. Was this a threat of another invasion?
Can somebody reestablish peace and quiet?

Well you know after massive use of nukes earth will be wery quiet and absolutely peacefull. Look forward to it? I certainly dont. But it is the only way military force can reestablish peace. Some countries must pay attention when thier actions endanger other countries ( anti-missile were always viewed by Russia as a treat but no one paid attention to our concerns, so russian military must concern themselves with this treat ).
I think mutual respect of national security could help, but choice was made and Russia must respond.
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#4
Actually USA says the anti-missile program aims only to protect that region and not to attack. As an example of a country to be defended from, Rice mentioned Iran.
“The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.”
A really nice forum for Parisians
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#5
M.Helen Wrote:Actually USA says the anti-missile program aims only to protect that region and not to attack. As an example of a country to be defended from, Rice mentioned Iran.

There was promise not to expand NATO to former Soviet sattilites, is it kept? Sorry but deeds speaks more volumes than words. Would you take chances if security of your country is at stake?
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#6
SiD Wrote:
M.Helen Wrote:Actually USA says the anti-missile program aims only to protect that region and not to attack. As an example of a country to be defended from, Rice mentioned Iran.

There was promise not to expand NATO to former Soviet sattilites, is it kept? Sorry but deeds speaks more volumes than words. Would you take chances if security of your country is at stake?

Former Soviet satellites are now independent countries, Sir.
And they are free to decide and act on its own.
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#7
It suprises me that every country defending itself and not involving Russia, automatically is assumed to be Russia's enemy.

The part of the reason for placing the Patriot Batteries are exclusively for self-defence.

The anture of Patriot Battery is thus, it is not created to hit target, only defend.

Now, If Russia takes it as a offence to itself only because Poland doe not allow Russia to missile it, then perhaps Wolrd needs a better representative in this region as a World Power.

These paranoic statements of Nagivytsin that Pols will be targeted by Nuke MIssiles in respond, are out of this planet and definitely out of this century.

Where russians live and what century they are in? This is the question.
"Europe should switch to nuclear and use the old gas pipes as sewers. The destination should be the Kremlin." @ a reader at timesonline.co.uk
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#8
Karl.in.eu Wrote:
SiD Wrote:
M.Helen Wrote:Actually USA says the anti-missile program aims only to protect that region and not to attack. As an example of a country to be defended from, Rice mentioned Iran.

There was promise not to expand NATO to former Soviet sattilites, is it kept? Sorry but deeds speaks more volumes than words. Would you take chances if security of your country is at stake?

Former Soviet satellites are now independent countries, Sir.
And they are free to decide and act on its own.

So are we Sir, so are we.
Lenus Wrote:It suprises me that every country defending itself and not involving Russia, automatically is assumed to be Russia's enemy.

The part of the reason for placing the Patriot Batteries are exclusively for self-defence.

The anture of Patriot Battery is thus, it is not created to hit target, only defend.

Now, If Russia takes it as a offence to itself only because Poland doe not allow Russia to missile it, then perhaps Wolrd needs a better representative in this region as a World Power.

These paranoic statements of Nagivytsin that Pols will be targeted by Nuke MIssiles in respond, are out of this planet and definitely out of this century.

Where russians live and what century they are in? This is the question.
It suprises me that every country defending itself and not involving Russia, automatically is assumed to be Russia's enemy.

The part of the reason for placing the Patriot Batteries are exclusively for self-defence.

The anture of Patriot Battery is thus, it is not created to hit target, only defend.

Now, If Russia takes it as a offence to itself only because Poland doe not allow Russia to missile it, then perhaps Wolrd needs a better representative in this region as a World Power.

These paranoic statements of Nagivytsin that Pols will be targeted by Nuke MIssiles in respond, are out of this planet and definitely out of this century.

Where russians live and what century they are in? This is the question.

Self defense is what we are told, but we were told that NATO will not expand NATO to former soviet satelites should we blindly belive? No need to be paranoid to be concerned. Poland is safer now? please. The question is why in this so peacefull 21st century military alliances of cold war are expanding, national borders are not respected (Kosovo independence) and UN loosing its power and influence in global politics. You think you the only ones wanting security and peace?
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#9
SiD Wrote:
Karl.in.eu Wrote:
SiD Wrote:There was promise not to expand NATO to former Soviet sattilites, is it kept? Sorry but deeds speaks more volumes than words. Would you take chances if security of your country is at stake?

Former Soviet satellites are now independent countries, Sir.
And they are free to decide and act on its own.

So are we Sir, so are we.

The independence of your country is limited to its borders!
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#10
SiD Wrote:Self defense is what we are told, but we were told that NATO will not expand NATO to former soviet satelites should we blindly belive? No need to be paranoid to be concerned. Poland is safer now? please. The question is why in this so peacefull 21st century military alliances of cold war are expanding, national borders are not respected (Kosovo independence) and UN loosing its power and influence in global politics. You think you the only ones wanting security and peace?

What do you mean you werre told?
Have you got an agreement? WHo is the Guarantoor?

Besides, You forget that Russia grew siginificantly after WW2. Kurill Islands are still DIsputed by Japanese, Kaliningrad used to be Keninsberg and You got as a present, western Ukraine and western Belorussia, Karelya of Finlad is another issue.

Why the Germans got punished with land? Have you asked yourself that question ever?

I'll tell you: Because of the ethnic cleansings.

Now, Translate the principle with Kosovo, and you have the same outcome, Serbs, who were pledged guilty of mass murdering, were punished by granting Independence to Kosovo. Russia, be reminded, never even condamned Serbs mass murdering and was a sole protector of Poor Milosevic, ending his life ina misery and humiliation.

Therefore, I dont believe Russia (after Balkan Crisis) has any room for talking whatsoever regarding border amendements.

btw, Georgia already field few claims to Hague Court, so you better get good Lawyers. I recomment non-Russians.
"Europe should switch to nuclear and use the old gas pipes as sewers. The destination should be the Kremlin." @ a reader at timesonline.co.uk
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#11
Karl.in.eu Wrote:The independence of your country is limited to its borders!

And independance of some countries is unlimmited?

To Lenus. What were key principles of post ww2 world order? Do you remember?
After Kosovo and Iraq i think everyone who can not defend himself and have something to take away can end his life in misery and humiliation.
There was time (after fall of Soviet Union) when to be patriot was shame in Russia, when many were questioning if we trully need big army (some were telling that we need no army at all) and nuclear arsenal. Well we learnt that if we wont take care of ourselves someone will take care of us. Poland could be perfectly protected by members of alliance, you underestamate strenght of Europe.
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#12
SiD

It seems like you are not addressing any points discussed by me.
Try again, please.
"Europe should switch to nuclear and use the old gas pipes as sewers. The destination should be the Kremlin." @ a reader at timesonline.co.uk
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#13
Lenus Wrote:SiD

It seems like you are not addressing any points discussed by me.
Try again, please.

Well i will try to explain. Independance of Kosovo was not punishment of Serbia it was violation of international law, one of key principles of that law is territorial integrity. UNs innability to maintain international law suggests to everyone that only absolute right in 21st century is right of the strong.
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#14
SiD Wrote:
Lenus Wrote:SiD

It seems like you are not addressing any points discussed by me.
Try again, please.

Well i will try to explain. Independance of Kosovo was not punishment of Serbia it was violation of international law, one of key principles of that law is territorial integrity. UNs innability to maintain international law suggests to everyone that only absolute right in 21st century is right of the strong.

I've just read your posts and shoked. Can you calm down and think, that how come everyone in the world is wrong and Russia is always right? Find a falty in yourself, dummy!!!! :haha
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#15
Quote:Well i will try to explain. Independance of Kosovo was not punishment of Serbia it was violation of international law, one of key principles of that law is territorial integrity. UNs innability to maintain international law suggests to everyone that only absolute right in 21st century is right of the strong

SiD

That is a terrible conclusion.
Kosovo has given an independence because Serbs commited the mass murdeiring.

Use fo force is only a part of leverage, international law still in force.

Once again, Israel never exsited before 1947. It was created and its perfectly legal. Same as Kosovo.


But,

I want to point out, that your country has taken parts in Georgia's conflicts long before the Kosovo Independence. Issuing the passports, Lifting CIS Sanctions for Brakaway regions, Georgia drone-downing incidents, Military buildup in Abkhazia, Railway restoration (unilateral decision), etc etc.

Please don't tell me you are trying to punish Georgia for Kosovo. Georgians had nothing to do with Kosovo.
"Europe should switch to nuclear and use the old gas pipes as sewers. The destination should be the Kremlin." @ a reader at timesonline.co.uk
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#16
Lenus Wrote:
Quote:Well i will try to explain. Independance of Kosovo was not punishment of Serbia it was violation of international law, one of key principles of that law is territorial integrity. UNs innability to maintain international law suggests to everyone that only absolute right in 21st century is right of the strong

SiD

That is a terrible conclusion.
Kosovo has given an independence because Serbs commited the mass murdeiring.

Use fo force is only a part of leverage, international law still in force.

Once again, Israel never exsited before 1947. It was created and its perfectly legal. Same as Kosovo.


But,

I want to point out, that your country has taken parts in Georgia's conflicts long before the Kosovo Independence. Issuing the passports, Lifting CIS Sanctions for Brakaway regions, Georgia drone-downing incidents, Military buildup in Abkhazia, Railway restoration (unilateral decision), etc etc.

Please don't tell me you are trying to punish Georgia for Kosovo. Georgians had nothing to do with Kosovo.

Well you can debate the whole century how ligal is Israel with muslim states.
International law is in force, yes but it was shown in Kosovo and Iraq (Were there any WMDs in Iraq how US claimed) that some are placing themselves above the law it they want.
Wenn Georgia left Soviet Union (they were promitted to leave peacefully) South Osetia doesnt wanted to be part of Georgia they had referendum and majority woted for independence, Tbilisy answered with military force. Well you can read if you want about whole affair point is that Russia helped Georgia to maintain its integrity but become unnaficial protector of peoples of S Osetia and Abchasia.
Looks like unfair position from us to defend territories that official are parts of other states but they never wanted to be with Georgia we only cept peace. And did it for more than 10 years.
We do not try to punish Georgia for Kosovo i am only saing that we warned everyone that frozen conflicts could escalate becouse of this. Saakashvili , boldened by US, assumed that he can solve Internal problems of Georgia by military force, instead of diplomacy.
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#17
SiD Wrote:Well you can debate the whole century how ligal is Israel with muslim states.
And? Do you recognise the state of Israel? Does UN do? End of Story.
I don't see a room for any debate.
SiD Wrote:International law is in force, yes but it was shown in Kosovo and Iraq (Were there any WMDs in Iraq how US claimed) that some are placing themselves above the law it they want.
We must leave WMD to peace. WE cannot move on otherwise.
Once again, Russia is not completely blameless in its actions in Chechnya, but continuing this way is wrong and let;s keep to the civilized world's rules and laws and do not generalise the isolated incidents and try to pass them as a rule of thumb.
SiD Wrote:Wenn Georgia left Soviet Union (they were promitted to leave peacefully) South Osetia doesnt wanted to be part of Georgia they had referendum and majority woted for independence, Tbilisy answered with military force. Well you can read if you want about whole affair point is that Russia helped Georgia to maintain its integrity but become unnaficial protector of peoples of S Osetia and Abchasia.
Looks like unfair position from us to defend territories that official are parts of other states but they never wanted to be with Georgia we only cept peace. And did it for more than 10 years.
We do not try to punish Georgia for Kosovo i am only saing that we warned everyone that frozen conflicts could escalate becouse of this. Saakashvili , boldened by US, assumed that he can solve Internal problems of Georgia by military force, instead of diplomacy.

I know Georgian History , especially of recent years nearly perfectly.
You have some misleading statements, doenst matter whether they are deliberate or not.

When Georgia was recognised by UN as a sovereogn state, it was recognised with Abkhazia and South Ossetia. They instigated wars, by demanding independence, and causing insurgencies, Georgia reacted in different ways. In Abkhazia Georgia entered its Military units to Control Railway passage as it was robbed frequently, however our Chieff of Guardia got involve d in an armed clash because of Abkhazians attacking him. This guy is hiding in Moscow nowadays.

Neither South Ossetian, nor Abkhazuan referendum was legal. In fact, if we view the whole issue from LEgal point of view, there is no Sout Ossetia as such, It was abolished after Soviet Break up, because it was created by Soviets in the firts place, after occupying Georgia in 1921.

Can you show me when and where South Ossetia existed before 1921? No, you wont be able to.

Abkhazia. A bit different story, in 1918, ABkhaz Province asked Georgia to protect it, Guess from what threat? the Russian White Army. We have an agreement, pefectly legal, stating the Abkhaz are protected by Georgia, are part of Georgia and will have only a status of Autonomous Republic within Georgia.

After USSR was created, or just before that, Abkhaz leaders were asked again - Would they prefer to be a part of Russia or part of Georgia. and Votes for joining Georgia won by a landslide.

So, there is not much point in turning the history wheel back, expelled Georgians (350,000) from Abkhazia will not legitimate ANY Referendums, especially if its not authorised by Georgian Givernment and allowed by UN.

I understand Russia could not react to Kosovo INcident and threatened Europe and US it would do something in responce in GEorgia, But it isnt the answer. Georgia is a hostage of situation and has no interference in Russia's losing the Kosovo Deal.

I am sorry, but Russia needs to start resolving its own problems without harassing and blackmailing its small Neighbours.
"Europe should switch to nuclear and use the old gas pipes as sewers. The destination should be the Kremlin." @ a reader at timesonline.co.uk
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#18
Well Lenus wasnt SU internationaly recognized? Including Georgia. You got your independence? - you got.
See how can things change for a decade? History wheel cannot be stopped. Yor nation asked Russian empire for protection now you seek protection from us. Were this two provincess officialy recognized by Russia as independent states? They still are not. Your best friends shaken global order with thier action and not we are to blame for them. Do they cared about your situation? They granted independece just becouse they wanted to do it. And Russia would never start conflict with Georgia for just no reason. You may think that we have no freedom in Russia but it is not so. Even western media accept that conflict started after Saakashwili tried to subdue S Osetia. If you were president would you trie to provoke larger nighbor or (how it is viewed in western media) allow to lure yourself into Russian trap?
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#19
Russia: The Awakening of wild bear. Is much more corect subcect.

The plan and timeline is as following: Ukraina, polland, baltik States, Finland? Max. in 20 years.
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#20
SiD Wrote:Well Lenus wasnt SU internationaly recognized? Including Georgia. You got your independence? - you got.
See how can things change for a decade? History wheel cannot be stopped. Yor nation asked Russian empire for protection now you seek protection from us. Were this two provincess officialy recognized by Russia as independent states? They still are not. Your best friends shaken global order with thier action and not we are to blame for them. Do they cared about your situation? They granted independece just becouse they wanted to do it. And Russia would never start conflict with Georgia for just no reason. You may think that we have no freedom in Russia but it is not so. Even western media accept that conflict started after Saakashwili tried to subdue S Osetia. If you were president would you trie to provoke larger nighbor or (how it is viewed in western media) accept to lure yourself into Russian trap?
It is already proofed 90%. Georgia have not started this. watch free meida and listen to experts on CNN BBC and ALjazira. and most important ----- Analize information you receive from various sorces.Look more carefuly at your presidents and you will understand.
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#21
Eka Wrote:It is already proofed 90%. Georgia have not started this. watch free meida and listen to experts on CNN BBC and ALjazira. and most important ----- Analize information you receive from various sorces.Look more carefuly at your presidents and you will understand.

Georgia blundered into a trap, although its imprudent aggression in South Ossetia was overshadowed by Mr. Putin's desire to play the strongman. Russia seized the chance to go on the offensive in Georgian territory while playing the victim/hero. Mr. Putin has long been eager to punish Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili for his lack of respect both for Georgia's old master Russia, and for Mr. Putin personally. (Popular rumor has it that the Georgian president once mocked his peer as "Lilli-Putin.")

It is from THE WALL STREET JORNAL. Wery pro-Russian isnt it? See who started all this? Of course they could not call you aggressors but your agression in S Osetia started all this. Is this free enough for you or free media can only writte about "poor invaded innocent georgian people" and "monstrous agressive Russia" ?


For anyone who thought that stark international aggression was a thing of the past, the last week must have come as a startling wake-up call. After clashes in the Georgian region of South Ossetia, Russia invaded its neighbor, launching attacks that threaten its very existence. Some Americans may wonder why events in this part of the world are any concern of ours. After all, Georgia is a small, remote and obscure place. But history is often made in remote, obscure places

It is from same site. By JOHN MCCAIN. See the word after. That is almost as it was written by georgians themselves but it is clear that Russia responded to your reckless actions.
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#22
Lenus Wrote:We must leave WMD to peace. WE cannot move on otherwise.
Once again, Russia is not completely blameless in its actions in Chechnya, but continuing this way is wrong and let;s keep to the civilized world's rules and laws and do not generalise the isolated incidents and try to pass them as a rule of thumb.

Well we will just forget about an invasion into foreign state to find weapons that are not exist? Wery convinient.
Georgian troops were there, what for? Look Bush is blamed for Iraq in his own country, do you blame your government? They sent your soldiers to fight for US couse that is proven unjust. 2000 soldiers is quite an contingent for small peacefull democracy. Parhaps it is duty of every INDEPENDENT democratic state to sand thier forces in Iraq to help US?
Isolated incidents? Good name. Calming. You can always say: death of thousands, countless refugees, humanitar catastrophe, occupation, loss of territory it is horrible but they are just isolated incidents. Hears like something that will newer happen to you or your country, they are just incidents and they are isolated, in some other place with some other people. Horor, misery, dispair, death are not seen behind two simple words Isolated incident, nothing to be concerned with.
What happend in Chechnya we call war. We are not completely blamless thats for sure. But much was written, said, done about it.
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#23
SiD Wrote:Well Lenus wasnt SU internationaly recognized? Including Georgia. You got your independence? - you got.
See how can things change for a decade? History wheel cannot be stopped. Yor nation asked Russian empire for protection now you seek protection from us. Were this two provincess officialy recognized by Russia as independent states? They still are not. Your best friends shaken global order with thier action and not we are to blame for them. Do they cared about your situation? They granted independece just becouse they wanted to do it. And Russia would never start conflict with Georgia for just no reason. You may think that we have no freedom in Russia but it is not so. Even western media accept that conflict started after Saakashwili tried to subdue S Osetia. If you were president would you trie to provoke larger nighbor or (how it is viewed in western media) allow to lure yourself into Russian trap?

Excuse me but we need to back up a bit.

What history books are you quoting? Georgia asked for Russian protection?
If you are refering to Traktat of Georgyevsk in 1783, it was about Partnership with Your King being superior to Ours, but it had to keep the Georgian Throne untouched.

I must remind you, soon after that treaty, 1795, Persians defeated Georgia Badly, Russia didnt get involved. Also, must remind you that in 1801 Russia Abolished GEeorgian Throne, and seized the kingdom.

So, even if we asked for pure protection, you understood it as invitation for invasion. Sounds like very much these days, really.


Re Saaksshvili and trap:

To use an analogy, you are blaming houseowner that he felt for a robbers lie, claiming he was a policeman.

I understnad that the houseowner must have been more careful and should not have opened the door, but it doen't reveal the burglar or robber of his responcibilities.

You are mixing up a mistake with a crime. I suggest you think about the levels of contributions each side did for provoking the war.

Anyhow, I am not in favour of looking back, whoever started it, its over now. You will withdraw. International peacekeepers will come in. South Ossetia and Abkhazia will always stay in Georgia and I hope western media shall never have to spare so much time to my Country affairs.

Georgia got an independance because Soviet Union broke up.
Its not Georgia's fault is it? kazakhstan got the same degree status although entered USSR as an autonomous republic only. So what can be done about it now?

You are wrong when you say West didnt care for us. If it wasnt for the Western pressure, Russians would never backed off. I have spoken to some russians, and thurst me, I dont need to lie, I knew about such scenario in 2002.

There were circles of Generals who would say if Georgia ever dares to attack its prvicnces, we will enter, capture the whole Georgia and join it to the Russian Federation (meaning with the status of Guberny, not even a Republic).

I dont know if Saakashvili knew this. Clearly he didint believe in it if he knew. But I guess it was in Russias wild intentions to cancel the Georgian threat once and for all.

Luckily for us it didnt work.
"Europe should switch to nuclear and use the old gas pipes as sewers. The destination should be the Kremlin." @ a reader at timesonline.co.uk
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#24
Sorry for placing such a horrible fhotoes of the war. Those are Georgian solders. Sorry again, but I think u have to see them.

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#25
Sid

when I mentioned "Analize" I meen not only media sorces bur experts too. They are in big amount and have different opinioins on reasons, roots adn consequensis of this conflicts, so if you are so interesting in Georgia try to analize. As I understand capabilities are present in you and try to give some work to neuro cells .
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