Lucy:) Wrote:Contract? Russia has rejected all previous agreements and new have not been signed yet.
Yes it is existing and is still in power! You've been just brainwashed![/quote]
Before Ukraine had contract with Russia as for gas supplies til 2009. However it was annulated in 2005 under Russian pressure. Don't name Russia when you want to refer some documents. For Russia in power is that what Putin wants exactly at this time. That's why Gazprom and Naftogaz sign annual connract, not long-termed[/quote]
dear Lucy how old are you???
sektor_Gaza Wrote:Lucy:) Wrote:Contract? Russia has rejected all previous agreements and new have not been signed yet.
Yes it is existing and is still in power! You've been just brainwashed!
Before Ukraine had contract with Russia as for gas supplies til 2009. However it was annulated in 2005 under Russian pressure. Don't name Russia when you want to refer some documents. For Russia in power is that what Putin wants exactly at this time. That's why Gazprom and Naftogaz sign annual connract, not long-termed[/quote]
dear Lucy how old are you???
[/quote]
I'm old enough to speak abut such problems, if you mean that. And as for that contract concerning gas transit between 2 countries till 2010 you should observe, that Ukraine has gained the right to change price for transit, if the price for gas is inreasing.
And about technic gas - of course Ukraine SHOULD provide certain amount of gas to make it transmissible, but only through ITS TERRITORY, and what to do if Russia really burns not enough gas on RUSSIAN stations to make pressure? We don't now it. Anyway, there was no need to direct gas flows through another transit route. If Russia let it to go souther, Bulgaria, Romania, Moldova, and other southern-european countries would get warmed faster. But now gas will be making a considerable round. so it shows that Russia cares for a politics, not for people that are freezing, in Balkans for example.
Dear Lucy, you messed up all the things. There's no conract between Russia and Ukraine for providing Ukraine with gas for 2009, but there's acting contact for transit to EU for that period!
2 to Lucy and sektor_Gaza
I said it before. Guys, please let's just discuss, be patient and do not offend each other!
ukrainian Wrote:The fact is that mr.Yuschenco’s father was a warder in Auschwitz concentration camp. Tell me, what is worst?
Yea, right. Then he was allowed to return to the Soviet Union, conceive Mr.Yushchenko, and live happily ever after. And this is when Uncle Joe (aka Stalin) killed millions of people for nothing. Mister, you are a cheap liar, pants on fire.
Romano Prodi Wrote:Dear Lucy, you messed up all the things. There's no conract between Russia and Ukraine for providing Ukraine with gas for 2009, but there's acting contact for transit to EU for that period!
2 to Lucy and sektor_Gaza
I said it before. Guys, please let's just discuss, be patient and do not offend each other!
Well, have i offended somebody? i was only giving my point of view
no, i think i have not messed things up, because i was writing about transit document. And by the way, due to this doc, money for gas transit should be payed be Russia in advance. That wasn't done. Agreements about technical gas should be made every year as new additions to the doc. And that wasn't done.
No one does any fighting these days without the US having a hand in it. I am tired of them throwing their weight around. Lets hope change means real change. :banghead
There has been nothing but trouble since the cold war ended. Considering the circumstance I don't believe that the Russians would very much care if Ukraine got their gas for nothing, as an incentive to transport their Gas to the EU, if it didn't have a strategic implication for them regarding the US. They are making so much money. The US wants to surround the Russians with hostile states, the Russians intend to stop this, one way or another. Ukraine and other east European states are importing this problem them selves, it can only end one way.
Ukraine now has no future, Russia is not interested in settling this dispute leaving a pro western government in power to drive Tanks and Aircraft up to their door step. Both party's are using the Gas situation as a proxy, to hide what is really going on. The Russians will ultimately win, due to their possible control of alternative supplies.
The Americans are sitting on top of the oil fields in Iraq. We are almost ready for World War 3 to clear out all the bad blood. We are what we are. :oO
Max Wrote:Anyway we have legal relations about transit with Russia not with EU, this is my idea. If they can’t arrange deal with transporter, they should clear relations with buyers alone.
Heh i suppose that is what i asked of you. You see Ukrain has strange position to europeans they say that they are ready to transit gas any second to russians they say that they do not have any obligations about transit. So if anyone is freezing you are in trouble becouse transit country isnt in the mood to deliver gas. Why? becouse they are not in the mood to pay for gas they consume or to repay thier debts.
Lastly i think you spoke truth, why dont we skipp negotiations with this land marked on the land like Ukraine they have nothing to do with adults business. Is that your thought?
BK Wrote:No, Ukraine is not a terrorist state. It is, unfortunately, shortsighted and, yes, corrupt , but the same and more can be said of Russia. The issue is not gas, it is power. Ukraine wishes to become independent from Russia; Russia wants to preserve its "sphere of influence" and the sense of empire it had under the old USSR. Europe is caught in the middle and is actually in a position to resolve the conflict. All Europe has to do is assure to provide Ukraine with gas at the aggregate European price (under $300.) This would reduce Russia's ability to use gas as a weapon against Ukraine, as well as help eliminate a major source of corruption in the regions. And it would also make it impossible for Russia to hide its current political power games by pointing a finger at Ukraine.
BK you have messed things, it is Russia selling gas to Europe not other way.
And Olga do not you think that Russians might love ukranians less becouse the were selling weapons to Georgia? Hey oppen political support from official Ukrain isnt bringing any anger, yeah no doubts. If Putin hasnt said "bloody banderans" "some" people sure did. If you have to be against some regime you better look closer becouse some people that have high positions in Ukrain made a good job to make russians "love ukranians less" to say the least. So if someone wanted no "kindness" from Russia he is on the right course but this one shouldnt expect that Russia will just forget people who feel close to us but just ended up on wrong part of the map wenn USSR collapsed.
My understanding is that many gas wells in Russia have been shut down because of low pressure. There is a shortage of gas available and all this fiasco re Ukraine being the cause of no gas being sent to EU is a charade to hide the real fact that Russia can not meet its contractual obligations. Instead of facts there is a lot bafflegab being supplied by the Russian bear.
Lucy:) Wrote:I'm old enough to speak abut such problems, if you mean that. And as for that contract concerning gas transit between 2 countries till 2010 you should observe, that Ukraine has gained the right to change price for transit, if the price for gas is inreasing.
So, you justify cuting gas transit to EU by ukraininans on such grounds?
Back then it was political decision undoubtely. Independant Ukraine which deemed Russia as friendly and partner state before '04 revolution payed something around $65 for m3 of russian gas (while average EU prices were like $170-180, but when in '05 its new president clearly shown that he has a task to make enemy#1of Russia in public ukrainian opinion, and conducts anti-russian politics, Russia decided that it has no reason to sponsor economic of country ruled by such hostile leaders. So, '06 gas crisis came. Gazprom went back on its word, and price for Ukraine remained quite low, and their gas stealing subject was hushed up.
But this time embezzling ukrainan president's (and his shady oligarchs') demands appeared to be drastically insolent. They want to raise transit price for 3-5 times (eu rate or even higher) while keeping exclusevely low price for gas for themselves
just for not ruining russia's gas deliveries to EU. Gazprom offered scheme of stage-by-stage convertion to european prices both for gas and for transit which presumed Ukraine should pay 250$ (half-eu price) in '09. Ukrainian delegation (after direct order of their president) refused to work on such conditions and quit negotiations (that was right on 31 dec).
Gazprom stated afterwards, that if ukrainians doesn't want to do fair business then they will have to pay full price for gas (while Gazprom doesn't mind paying full transit price in that case). So, russia-ukrainian gas contract ended on 1 january and Gazprom shut down pipes to internal ukrainian consumers. However, it continued gas deliveries to EU since separate long-term gas transit contract between Russia and Ukraine remained valid. Despite the fact that by conditions of that contract any claims and disagreements were to be trialed in Stockholm arbitrate in accordance to swedish law, Kiev economical court urgently recognized it illegitimate and stated that any gas, entering Ukrainian borders is considered "no man's" (do you doubt that it was ordered to do so by ukrainian president who barefaced used similiar actions to fight his political opponents inside country before?). Therefore ukrainians started stealing (or "taking no man's gas" as they claimed) from pipes which lead to EU. European officials adressed to Gazprom stating that they do not receive anything on ukrainian border. Gazprom shut down remaining valves because it didn't want to provide ukraininan thiefs.
There was nothing about any unsigned protocols or additions to transit contract, it was simply like that - "you don't sign our contract on our terms - we pronounce transit void and take all gas for ourselves".
I don't know about payments for transit, maybe it's true, they weren't made in advance as they should be. But 1) I haven't heard anything (even in western media) about ukrainians making such statement to prove their position and 2) ukrainians didn't pay for the gas for quite long time ($1,5 bln debt is not something you make quick) but Gazprom didn't stop supplying Ukraine in middle of '08.
Look at Latvia - economical situation makes people protest heavily. And economical situation in Ukraine is worse than in Latvia. But if people there start unrest, Yushenko will declare that it's all Russia's attempts to remove him from power, will call case of emergency and use police forces to opress protesters. Blaming Russia in everything now gives him great amount of political credit to use. Crisis - blame Russia, industry stops - blame Russia, empty state treasury (after recent $16bln loan!) - blame Russia. Easy way to discharge own thievery and incompetence. USA should be extremely happy with their vassal - he gave them great opportunity to lobby their Nabucco project even in sceptic countries.
By the way, heard today interview with one official, russian Department of Accounts starts thorough audition of all financial transfers, connected to RosUkrEnergo, in order to bring more clarity - what other resellers are involved, who is responsible for ukrainian arrears and so on. Maybe it's just the first step to transparency in gas relations that Russia did. Let's see if Ukraine is ever going to disclose its own gas sector reselling schemes and who really stands behind RosUkrEnergo on ukrainian side.
SiD Wrote:transit country isnt in the mood to deliver gas.
Transit should be prepaid. Russia doesn't pay for transit so we don't do any thing, right?
It's not Tambov buddy. You don't give us gas for free, we don't perform transit services for free.
Plus Russia failed to arrange contracts, prices, protocols etc. If your irresponsible Russia is not in the mood to solve these questions so who is doctor for you?
As about should Russians work with Ukraine or shouldn't. You Russians are annoynig people. You can find another transporter who can supply 350 millions c.m. a day easily, right?
So go and find.
Guest Wrote:ukrainian Wrote:The fact is that mr.Yuschenco’s father was a warder in Auschwitz concentration camp. Tell me, what is worst?
Yea, right. Then he was allowed to return to the Soviet Union, conceive Mr.Yushchenko, and live happily ever after. And this is when Uncle Joe (aka Stalin) killed millions of people for nothing. Mister, you are a cheap liar, pants on fire.
You overestimate a professionalism of Stalin's NKVD. That's true that too many of innocent people has been repressed those days, bat there is also fact that a huge number of collaborationists has been escaped from repressions. Treatment of soviet POW, who has been liberated by red army, was not as bad as it said to. And in many cases war criminals got a chance to escape the judgment acting as POW. Nazi authority used to hide them in camps weary actively. Among 1 539 475 soviet POW were sent home after being cleared by NKVD commissions, 659 190 brought back to army, and only 226 127 repressed. Andrei Yuschenco had been cleared. However, his CV-s, that VY gave to NKVD officers on different stages of investigation, looks different. Also, his CV says about 3 escapes that his fathers have done in different camps. However the fact is that Nazis were really strict on this issue. POW usually has been shot for such misdemeanors. Mr. Yuschenko did it 3 times without any consequences. But the best story is a confession of presidents Yuschenko brother Pitter that their father learnt to drink good coffee in Auschwitz! What do you think about this confession? Is it enough? If not, there is a documentary book on this issue: "Andrei Yuschenco -- the person and the legend" by Israeli writer Jury Vilner.
Max Wrote:SiD Wrote:transit country isnt in the mood to deliver gas.
Transit should be prepaid. Russia doesn't pay for transit so we don't do any thing, right?
No.
1) Ukraine didn't transfer money of its indebtidness for gas supplies until 31 dec (which Gazprom was going to receive only after holidays due to transfer time), but Gazprom fulfilled old contract without any excesses. Giving debtor some time to pay his debts is common custom is business.
2) If Ukraine thought that it has every reason to stop transit because of lack of payment (by the way, how about proving this accusation - where did this info came from?) it should have informed both Russia and EU that it is closing its GTS because of financial disagreements, and presented its claims to the Stockholm court. This is half-civilized way to do business (fully civilized presumes continuing transit while presenting financial claim to Gazprom in the same swedish court). Instead, Ukraine simply started siphoning gas for itself.
Whole volume, not something to cover transit costs or whatever.
So, your "arguments" failed miserably.
Quote:As about should Russians work with Ukraine or shouldn't. You Russians are annoynig people. You can find another transporter who can supply 350 millions c.m. a day easily, right?
So go and find.
And that's what is called racket.
Of course you know that "going and finding" another transiter is not possible. And Gazprom obviously can't cancel its current deals with european customers. So the only possible solution is do as you demand. That's how ukrainians negotiate in truth - thanks for showing it to everyone.
I feel sorry for freezing europe, but such unthinkable racketeering can't last anymore, in this I agree with Gazprom officials, who have chosen hardest, but most legal way to end this confrontation.
Isn't it interesting that the book by Vilner was published in Moscow, Russia and is part of their smear campaign to discredit the Ukrainian president. So much for unbiased historical facts. Figures don't lie but liars do figure.
Gust 2 Wrote:Isn't it interesting that the book by Vilner was published in Moscow, Russia and is part of their smear campaign to discredit the Ukrainian president. So much for unbiased historical facts. Figures don't lie but liars do figure.
No, it was published in Kiev, as a result of Mr. Yuschenko visit to Israel, and his dispute with authorities of the Holocaust Museum over his campaigns aimed to prize Nazi collaborators and SS members as a national heroes, and the further force that he has put on Ukrainian Security Services to look for any materials that might be used for those collaborators advocacy.
Have not seen the book but can only go on the internet descriptions and they all state that the book appeared in Moscow. Regardless of where it was published it is the underlying purpose of the printing of the book that is in question. The timing was also in line with the presidential elections.
It is interesting how quickly the topic changes from the issue of Russian inability to supply gas to that of Nazi collaboration.
The European commission has just said that its experts confirmed that Russia had demanded a technical impossibilty these past two days. For a sure sign of Russia's bad will and could care less attitude about freezing Europeans. Which shows how high the stakes must be for Russia. This lends credence to the fact that Russia might not have enough gas at the border at this present moment to fulfill its obligations.
Jason Wrote:Eugeny Wrote:Ivan Wrote:Ukrainian officials said Gazprom had "deliberately" sent the gas by a route that would have meant switching off gas to Ukrainian consumers in the east of the country. Instead of supplying gas via the traditional route, through Ukraine's Belgorod and Rostov region, it had been sent on a bypass route which would paralyse supplies to the towns of Donetsk and Luhansk. "This is just provocation against Ukraine," said Bohdan Sokolovsky, Ukraine's commissioner for energy security.
Ukraine's president, Viktor Yushchenko, went further. His office compared Russia's actions to those of the Nazis during the wartime siege of Leningrad. Andrei Kislinksy, deputy head of Ukraine's presidential secretariat, said the gas war "increasingly resembles the blockade of Leningrad after the failure of the blitzkrieg" and added that its primary purpose seemed to be about making Yushchenko step down from office.
The question is how long Mr.Putin is going to hold the Europeans hostages of his imperialistic policy?
How long Belgorod and Rostov are Ukraine's regions? Did I miss something? Did you seen the map? E.g.: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.eegas.com/ukr_010609e.htm">http://www.eegas.com/ukr_010609e.htm</a><!-- m -->. Eastern Europeans are hostages of Ukrainian dumbocrathy.
Dear Eugeny,
First, it was a quote from an article from The Guardian. The same article that the first post refers to.
Second, you are very rude. You must be a Russian, aren't you?
Dear Jason, when you have nothing to say, you start critisizing your oponent's personality
My God, how reckless the European Union is. So pathetic and worthless. For how long the EU is gong to accept the nonsense that we hear from Ukraine? The real answer is that EU doesn't care at all, just watch euronews, they try to be so unbiased, so patheticaly independent and objective. But what do we really have? A some kind of state that is rulled with some pack of bureaucrats who are responsible for nothing and care only about showing themselves living saints, crusaders of freedom, white knights of gotham. All this eurpoean society is just a bad joke, it is a form of endless keeping Europe far from the point. The point is that Europe aтв Russia need deepest cooperation, a european cooperation, Europe need resources and it needs economical growth, Russia needs a market and it needs investions and technologies. But there is a point on the world map which would never let Europe understand this simple thing. It is Washington DC, USA. It is a strategical interest for the US to keep Russia and EU far from each other. The US ecomomy is simple - to borrow from everyone in the world who uses dollars. Why the EU has no it's army? Because the US wants EU to be a part of Atlantic Society, to have a vote on the continent far from it's own borders. Why the EU don't blame Ukraine for the fault of gas transisition? Because everyone in EU knows who brought Orange team to power. How can a state be rulled by a person having a rating of zero percent? Who on earth would call this democracy?
Why there is no mentioning in any popular western media about international monitors and their reports? Why Barrosu is pretending to be a child and doesn't say obvious things that were officially told be the EU monitors? The monitors say that Russia is pumping gas but Ukraine doesn`t pump it to Europe? So who is to blame anyway?
Why does any talk about this gas conflict ends disputing about russian history, about political process in Russia? Because it is very good to come up with some historical stamps to show that the EU is not working with an economical partner, but working with barbarians that eat children and are to blame for death of every person in the world. I want to adress to descent europeans that don't have sources of reliable information about Russia, but instinctly feel that not everything was told them. Yes you are right, it is not all the truth that you've been told on euronews, cnn and other channels controlled with US and GB. You wish to do buisness, so let it be buisness, don't try to act about us like if we are idiots and don't understand your position of double standarts. It is a situation when you have to end with double standarts - you have to options: to officially say that Ukraine is to blame, that they steal gas and to show them how pissed off you are, or freeze one by one. Something tells me that the EU would choose for you - to freeze for democracy!
Russian 1 Wrote:Have not seen the book but can only go on the internet descriptions and they all state that the book appeared in Moscow. Regardless of where it was published it is the underlying purpose of the printing of the book that is in question. The timing was also in line with the presidential elections.
It is interesting how quickly the topic changes from the issue of Russian inability to supply gas to that of Nazi collaboration.
Book has appeared in Ukraine. Unfortunately I've no chance to give a link for complete version of this book because of the rules of this forum. You say:” It is interesting how quickly the topic changes from the issue of Russian inability to supply gas to that of Nazi collaborate"? I would say not really -- it has started from attempts of Mr.Uschenko supporters to investigate the bio of his political opponents on a purpose of blackmail. Let's get back to the topic. In 2006 during previous Russian-Ukrainian gas dispute took place -- ukr. side has insisted on price $50 per 1000 cubical, but Russians wanted $90 and after Mrs.Timoshenko has refused to sign a contract it raised up to $120. Tat situation forced president to put a pressure on Mrs. Timoshenko and soon new government lead by Mr.Yehanurov (actual minister for the defense) came to an office. In Jan. the 1-st Russian side has stop to supply Ukraine with natural gas, & Mrs.Timoshenko confronted Mr.Yehanurov's decision to agree with that price. Her idea was to steal transit gas & use the protests from European costumers of Gasprom as a tool for negotiations over the gas price. Today, we have Mrs.Timoshenko in power now. So whom to blame?
In Dec 31-st Naftogas has sand the official letter to Gasprom, warned that gas that will be found in Ukrainian pipelines after Jan the 1-st will be confiscated by Naftogas because transit agreement is not signed. So, whome to blaim?
Interesting that the comments for the party at fault always seem to include attacks at the leaders of Ukraine. But what are the real facts? Is there enough gas at Russian wells in order to meet the contractual requirements or is there a shortfall? It would be interesting to see the figures of what is being shipped out. Lets stop the continual inuendo and get down to brass tacks. Is Russia having a problem in supplying the amout required or not? The other point that is interesting is that Russia wants to dictate the routes that the gas is to flow disregarding the normal operation of the pipelines. Why would they want to do this? Are they looking to take over the pipeline operation as in Belarus?
A lot of questions but very few answers. So is there enough gas or is there not??????
:livre
My dear friends thanks for comments and I will propose now to administrator to close this topic with the necessary apologies to our neighbors, Ukrainians. My personal opinion is that the whole problem can be solved very easily by Russia if they want it. Too bad for inocent peoples who suffer. Fortunately, my country has its own gas reserves, and the population hasn't suffered too much during this period, but other countries around us - Bulgaria, Hungary, Moldova... :nonnon :ange
According to the latest news, Ukraine can't transit gas because of technical problems. Mr Topalanek said that this new route, which Russia had chosen, is too difficult if not allmost unreal. So now Putin is considering another routes, tomorrow in Moscow will be a meeting, and we'll see. And Putin said to the press that if Ukraine wants, it can also take part. Well my opinion it goes without sayng that Ukraine will be in Moscow tomorrow. Such ridiculous statements of Putin are irritating when Europe has cold.
I do not claim that Ukraine shouldn't transport gas to Europe, if there are no valid agreement for transiting gas. They would transit it for free for some period of time, I think they are not against it. The problem is what to transport. I really believe (though we, simple people, will never know what is going on in political circles ),that Russia simply doesn't provide enough gas.
Guest 2 Wrote:Interesting that the comments for the party at fault always seem to include attacks at the leaders of Ukraine. But what are the real facts? Is there enough gas at Russian wells in order to meet the contractual requirements or is there a shortfall? It would be interesting to see the figures of what is being shipped out. Lets stop the continual inuendo and get down to brass tacks. Is Russia having a problem in supplying the amout required or not? The other point that is interesting is that Russia wants to dictate the routes that the gas is to flow disregarding the normal operation of the pipelines. Why would they want to do this? Are they looking to take over the pipeline operation as in Belarus?
A lot of questions but very few answers. So is there enough gas or is there not??????
Party that field -- is Yuschenko's Our Ukraine with their zero raiting. It's also funny to read the conspiracy theories about Russia has not enough gas -- of course, they have no gas, and no oil, like the rest of the world, because the Merciful decide to punish human beings for paying no attention to the environmental conditions and has taken away all energy . He left only uranium, of course. Because uranium is desperately needed for Holy War.
Seriously, there is a simple reason why the Gasprom wants to use a certain pipe. Just because of that pipe is supposed to be full of transit gas. So they don't want Naftogas to steal it to. I don’t say Ukraine -- I say Naftogas. Ukraine is not a stealing part -- only some corrupt politicians who need a significant amount of money for the elections, that if we believe to Ukrainian polls, they are going to lose.
What a load of rubbish. This is once again a european kind of thinking. Thу international monitors were shown that Gazprom has started pumping gas to Ukraine, it is simply blocked. Why blocked? Because there are two systems transporting gas - national and transitionary. Gazprom started pumping to Ukraine gaz to the transitonal line. The Ukraine simply blocks it. They say that that they cannot techinically transport it to Europe. It is nonescence, it was possible for 30 years, but it has become impossible now? You are so unbiased to believe that nonescence? The truth is that Ukraine has pumped off the gas from the pipe (it belongs to Europe) and they need techinical gas to transport it to Europe (in normal situation the pipe must have been filled with gaz) so they want Russia to give them technical gaz for 700 mln bucks free! Yes this is called market. The truth is that by the transition contract the Ukrain and Russia have Ukraine must provide techinical gaz by their means (from domestic income or to buy from Russia). But Ukraine needs to give arguments for their supproters, no matter how ridiculous they are. So they do give such arguments like "not enough gaz to be transported" (the amount is normal if the pipe is not kept empty how it has to be)"the pressure is not enough" (it is enough and it is proved by EU commisioners).
Europeans don't act like you understand all the technical nuances with this problem, you are just repeating ukranian arguments not even trying to analyze how stupid and lying they are. The specialists in the EU perfectly understand everything, they understand simple truth that Ukraine is stealing gas from europeans, but no one has balls to say that "evil Putin eating children Russia" is right and "perfectly democratical innocent prowestern Ukraine is wrong" because the US want to destroy system of EU - Russia cooperation and to move Russia and EU back in to confronting camps so americans would again be above the fight. Ukraine would fall anyway - it is bankrupt now, but how pleasent it is along with inevitable bankruptsy to breack whole Europe system of energy supplies. And americans can once again say - we warned ya, whe told ya about crazy Putin etc etc etc. You europeans don't see such obvious things because you see yourselves a white castle on a hill, which cannot be rulled behind the scenes, but really it is.